Heartwarming trans story

[none]

it is not really all that common vernacular because it is not all that a common occurrence.
yet they shift has to be done for inclusion or there will be people who don't exist.
some don't want to exist yet the reach of gov't is there.
the policing the US has done and does isn't going to slow down, we are the police force of the world when it comes to everywhere whether the world likes that or not is up for dispute but boots on the ground make a difference domestic and foreign it is the politics of who's who that get things mucked up.
now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

[8livesleft]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders. 

I mean, really, what for? 

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine. 

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway. 

[none]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders.

I mean, really, what for?

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine.

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway.

governments have to do that identification, it is part of their function

[8livesleft]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders.

I mean, really, what for?

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine.

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway.

governments have to do that identification, it is part of their function

Sure, just another piece of info like 5'10, 170 pounds...

I'm saying in the future, with all our data basically in their hands, they won't even need that. They'll be able to locate us and discern our activities instantly. 

The new minority will be people "off-grid."

[none]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders.

I mean, really, what for?

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine.

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway.

governments have to do that identification, it is part of their function

Sure, just another piece of info like 5'10, 170 pounds...

I'm saying in the future, with all our data basically in their hands, they won't even need that. They'll be able to locate us and discern our activities instantly.

The new minority will be people "off-grid."

everything is broken down to 3 metrics.
the "off-grid" people usually have a file in this current age
they might not have papers on their person but there usually is some awareness in the government about who is who and if by chance a person wants to be "off-grid" it usually equates to "ignored"

[dutchy]

No it was not a little thing.
 ••••
Is it so hard to understand how emotionally driven this whole thing is ?
••••
I have to meet the first person in real life who fully agrees with this new language pollution.
Even i , who considers myself a moderate liberal and a hardcore socialist, am vulnerable to 'see' a conspiracy in this whole agenda to alter our language.
What for ? What are we aiming for ?

^^^^^ I dunno. You're the one who thinks they maybe see a conspiracy.

I think you are the one that needs to answer "What for? What are we aiming for?" Otherwise you are imagining connections that don't exist between dots that may or may not exist.

We all have our crosses to bear. You have people interested in language of inclusion. We have people like meAgain.

That's a bit condescending Kiahanie.
There is an clear underlying agenda to re-write the historical meaning of men and women .
And it's a bunch of woke intellectuals which forces this agenda. The majority is against this development, yet it is ignored.

I saw a post from Kevin where he asked me 'what's natural' ?
He primarily reacted upon my claim that only women give birth the children , which is the natural cause of events.
Since you immediately liked Kevin, i ask you to give me details about why you and Kevin have questions about the fact that it's 100% natural that only women can give birth to children.
Is that not true ? 
Could you or Kevin elaborate ?

[8livesleft]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders.

I mean, really, what for?

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine.

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway.

governments have to do that identification, it is part of their function

Sure, just another piece of info like 5'10, 170 pounds...

I'm saying in the future, with all our data basically in their hands, they won't even need that. They'll be able to locate us and discern our activities instantly.

The new minority will be people "off-grid."

everything is broken down to 3 metrics.
the "off-grid" people usually have a file in this current age
they might not have papers on their person but there usually is some awareness in the government about who is who and if by chance a person wants to be "off-grid" it usually equates to "ignored"

Are there unregistered birthing clinics there? I'm thinking govt/private hospitals would register everyone so the only way to truly stay out is to be born in those unregistered places.

[none]

now in frame a female who identifies as male can give birth so what's it going to be?
women and transgender men give birth or "parents" and that is why i think those words were chosen, not because the agenda is to confuse the physical capabilities of men and women just their gender identities being verified.

Right. For identification and verification.

I think eventually tho, there might no longer be a need to even identify or verify genders.

I mean, really, what for?

We're all just people with abilities and capacities, some masculine some feminine.

As far as partners go, only those in the relationship truly know what's going on anyway.

governments have to do that identification, it is part of their function

Sure, just another piece of info like 5'10, 170 pounds...

I'm saying in the future, with all our data basically in their hands, they won't even need that. They'll be able to locate us and discern our activities instantly.

The new minority will be people "off-grid."

everything is broken down to 3 metrics.
the "off-grid" people usually have a file in this current age
they might not have papers on their person but there usually is some awareness in the government about who is who and if by chance a person wants to be "off-grid" it usually equates to "ignored"

Are there unregistered birthing clinics there? I'm thinking govt/private hospitals would register everyone so the only way to truly stay out is to be born in those unregistered places.

human trafficking is an option not many seek and those that do....not good outcomes from what I see
usually a toddler ends up dead and then there is fallout.

[kevin]

I saw a post from Kevin where he asked me 'what's natural' ?
He primarily reacted upon my claim that only women give birth the children , which is the natural cause of events.

Is that not true ?
Could you or Kevin elaborate ?

dutchy, what is the difference, to you, btween sex and gender? and again, what is natural?

gender and sex are not the same-- sex is a physical biological condition that in the natural world is primarily bimodal, but in which intermediate expressions occur naturally. my intersex aunt is a good example-- she was a female, sort of, but was also a male, sort of. this was her natural condition-- no human social norms or personal choices imposed her physical and biochemical makeup on her--its how nature produced her.

sex exists in a continuum, with males at one end and females at another, and a range of chromosomal-induced and physical variants in between that occur naturally in the natural world. theyre not uncommon, and unnatural social, political, and legal conventions have prevented people from recognizing that for centuries.

stigmatizing a natural product of the natural world is not a natural point of view-- i suggest that people who consider intersex persons to be flawed, depraved, or incomplete are forcing their own opinions on the situation, and calling their own social predispositions "natural" in spite of the clear evidence that the opposite is true.

second, gender is not the same as sex-- gender is a social contruct imposed between humans that itself varies within different societies. it refers to the roles played by people of different sexes in childrearing, breadwinning, governance, and so on. in western patriarchal societies, gender roles often meant that descent, inheritance, and governance went with the males. in my cherokee and chickasaw ancestors, gender held very different roles. my ancestors traced their lineage through their mothers, not their fathers. inheritance was matrilineal, and governance was shared between genders. the roles of masculinity and feminity are different in modern societies as well.

because gender is not physical, but behavioural, there is also a range of expression that doesnt necessarilly correspond to physical sex. you can have people who are genetically programmed to be behaviourally feminine who are given chromosomes that result in a male sex. and vice versa. these are the transgender people who are getting such unfavourable notice now among people who dont understand the difference between sex and gender. they appear in history for thousands of years, from ashnubanipal to joan of arc.

the confusion in all of this is ultimately semantic. the endpoints of the sexes are male and female, and of gender are masculine and feminine. you can have fully male individuals with fully feminine gender, you can have fully female individuals who are completely masculine, and you can have everything in between. yes, both distributions are bimodal and closely overlap, but that doesnt mean that the rest of us are somehow "unnatural," anymore than the gold nuggets in a stream bed are unnatural merely because the rest of the particles are gravel.

because of the terminolgy differences, you have people confusing the issue on both sides arguing about the words, instead of noticing natural situations. is a "woman" the same as a "female?" no, not anymore than a "man" is always "male." our socialized words have always been clumsy approximations of the natural world, and have prevented us from recognizing the simple continuum in expression of both gender and sex. yes, only someone with a functional uterus can give birth, and only someone with viable sperm can father children. but what about the people with both a uterus and testes? intersex expressions run the entire spectrum, and the peaks of the distribution are just that, peaks, not mutually exclusive categories.

instead of worrying about whether a man can give birth, or whether a female can inherit property or vote, i suggest we should just meet people where they are, and worry about our own lives instead of theirs.

[Shnozzola]

Or another way, a person that has breasts, a penis, a vagina, and at different times released alternating large amounts of estrogen and/or testosterone - how would you like to classify that person, how do you want their parents to classify them, and how would you think society should classify them?

Like kevin said above, is supporting them but leaving them alone acceptable?  Should that person be allowed near children?  An institution maybe?  Or maybe death.  That is what society would have done for centuries.  Save the family embarrassment.  Keep Satan out of the house.  Are we past that as a civilization?

[meAgain]

*

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••
I saw a post from Kevin where he asked me 'what's natural' ?
He primarily reacted upon my claim that only women give birth the children , which is the natural cause of events.
Since you immediately liked Kevin, i ask you to give me details about why you and Kevin have questions about the fact that it's 100% natural that only women can give birth to children.
Is that not true ?
Could you or Kevin elaborate ?

Kevin's query concerned much more than childbirth, and his response elaborated really well.

I am curious about your use of the pejorative "woke." Over here the word means

chiefly US slang
1
1a: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
Often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action

It is strange to me that an avowed progressive would be using the word this way. You are using the language of the recidivists to frame the topic.

Why on earth would you do that?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

To whom are you speaking?

jst, i am speaking to anybody who would vote for a public policy or politician who would forbid my gay family members from obtaining a fully-valid secular marriage, with all the social and legal benefits that are traditionally included automatically in a heterosexual marriage, such as insurance beneficiaries, inheritance, and spousal authority at end-of-life care.

i am speaking to anybody who claims that LGBTQ adults and minors need coercive practices imposed upon their gender or medical health decisions  against their will, and i am speaking to anybody who claims that they know better than the parents how to accomodate the gender, medical, and emotional needs of their LGBTQ children.

you might see parallels in the worldwide political and social persecution of the witnesses, and in the attitudes of non-witness society towards forcible blood transfusions. or maybe not.

this is not hard. just keep your hands to yourself.

I have no desire to start trouble with anyone.  Why do you suppose the LGBTQ crowd gets targeted so much?  Extramarital sex is far more common, but no one is up in arms about that. 

[Kiahanie]

I sure do wish you did not think in black and white terms, meAgain.

••••
A white person thinking he is black doesn't make him black. 
••••

Only if your thinking is chromatically challenged.

"White" and "Black" are not skin tones. They are cultural and ethnic identifiers.

••••
You specifically said I was spreading misinformation ••••

You have been. See Mooby's recent posts.

••••
I am not anti trans, I'm anti harmful and ineffective programs for kids.   
••••

Your opinion of "harm" is in conflict with the educated opinions of the vast majority of medical professionals in related fields.  From their point of view your position is harmful and ineffective. Because of the harm and ineffectiveness I view your position to be anti-trans, in conflict with common sense and decency.

You certainly give all appearances of being anti-trans.

••••

••• I was saying how much I hate when certain religious groups distort Christ's teachings and when people do abusive things in the name of God••••

Yeah. So do I. More on that below.

••••
My comment was yes, I believe in God, but it doesn't matter,
••••

Now that is interesting. You come into a Religion thread about "all things divine" and tell us that on this topic your god does not matter. Beyond curious.

••••
So, no I did not bring up God, but you do all the time!

meAgain, this is a Religion board. "All things divine." Politics is elsewhere. There are relevant threads where you can pitch your mis-informed malevolence. This thread is not one of them.

I posted the OP because here at IGI Christians are often criticized more than non-christians. I believe most Christians are ok people, just like everyone else. I thought it worthwhile to give an example of a Christian doing the right thing because of his belief in his god.

You busted in with your misinformed opinions to promote your notion of how to abuse kids. Maybe you and Francis should form an Interest Group.

Rude. Certainly not "divine."

[8livesleft]

.  Are we past that as a civilization?

Homosexuality was accepted or at least tolerated in ancient egypt, greece, rome, has always been accepted in hinduism if I'm not mistaken. In ancient china there have been gay emperors. 

So, it's only in the advent of abrahamism that they considered it a bad thing. 

No matter what the abrahamists say or do tho, they just can't stop the reality that gender fluidity exists as a natural occurence. 

So, hopefully they get in with the program and we return to the degree of acceptance we had in the past or follow the more traditional states that have always accepted it. 

[Jstwebbrowsing]

In my view, gender dysphoria really blurs the lines of what it even means to be man or a woman, or to be gay.  I can only imagine what it's like to have gender dysphoria or to have a child with it.  I wonder how many gay people have actually had gender dysphoria.

[8livesleft]

In my view, gender dysphoria really blurs the lines of what it even means to be man or a woman, or to be gay.  I can only imagine what it's like to have gender dysphoria or to have a child with it.  I wonder how many gay people have actually had gender dysphoria.

In your country, it reportedly affects .6% of people. 7.1% reportedly identify as lgbtq.

So, 1.4 million out of 23.4 milion.

The key thing about dysphoria is really about acceptance or a lack of it for the self and others not accepting their gender choice.

[kevin]

I have no desire to start trouble with anyone.  Why do you suppose the LGBTQ crowd gets targeted so much?  Extramarital sex is far more common, but no one is up in arms about that.

can a gay person come out among the jehovahs witnesses, jst?

if your answer is no, then you have one answer to your question.

but more broadly, i dont know why straight people are so fascinated by homosexuals. if youre not gay you will seldom interact with one in any sexually oriented manner. people i work with are outspoken about how gay people are sick and depraved, and need to forced back into hiding.

i ask them, why do you think about gay people so much? they dont like that.

so i dont know the answer to your question. why do so many white people hate black people? you see that all over oklahoma.

people just consider anyone different to be a threat, i suppose.

[8livesleft]

people just consider anyone different to be a threat, i suppose.

Yes

Funny how things outside of our lives can bother us so much. 

I think it stems from thinking there's just one way or path. So anything that seems different is seen as coming from a different path, which is automatically the wrong or bad one and we tend to lump all the bad things together so something minor can go all the way to red alert for some people. 

[dutchy]

Kevin's query concerned much more than childbirth, and his response elaborated really well.

I reacted to a single sentence, which he then explained later I have to read through it.

I am curious about your use of the pejorative "woke." Over here the word means

chiefly US slang
1
1a: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
Often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action

It is strange to me that an avowed progressive would be using the word this way. You are using the language of the recidivists to frame the topic.

Why on earth would you do that?

The Netherlands was a country of tolerance for decades.
Settled on same sex marriage long ago... even in the majority of churches.
No debate anymore about abortion and euthanasia under current ruling.

Even the right wing mad dog Geert Wilders has been furious at times that homo sexual couples can no longer walk hand in hand in Amsterdam, or kiss in public..because most Muslims consider this a travesty of their values.(which is of course part of Geert's own political agenda).
Many famous dutch celebrities participated in a tv show ''guess who the drag queen is'' , where they themselves were dressed up drag queens.
Most dutch people say ' i don't care what you want to be in life...a man or a women or it ...as long as you don't cause any troubles for us, we let you live your own preferred life.

A rational person should count their pennies and focus on those groups who do hate homosexuality with a vengeance and just about everything western liberalization stands for.

But instead of trying to include those groups ( growing larger and larger as research shows), those groups can preach the most appalling anti homo stuff imaginable.
Many secret recordings from hate imams reveal 'homo's should be thrown from a tower'','saying merry Christmas is kissing the devil' etc.

I don't know what type of Muslim immigrants you have in the USA, i presume the more higher educated, but we have foremost people from the mountains of Morocco and Turkey that make conservative right wing Christians look like liberal saints. Because we needed cheap labors to exploit economically.....
And we thought that the light of liberalism would also infect the second and third generations of Muslim immigrants.
At first the increasing numbers of covered women were seen as an addition to our own culture.
After the killing of cartoonists in Europe, most Muslims thought it was a deserved penalty for blasphemy of the prophet.
Step by step our liberties are threatened by a conservative flavor that is cherishing views that are extremely anti homosexual and gender equality.
Even their women are treated in a way Dutch law forbids.

I have been brave enough to talk to them personally and i like them one on one, but their views are eventually going to conflict with western values.
Lala Gul a writer, who broke lose has written a book about her youth in the Netherlands and what life was like in a traditional Muslim environment.
Of course she received hundredths of serious death threats and needs government protection.
People like her and Hirshi Ali (now well known in the USA) have, like many others warned about what's it like to be a suppressed Muslim woman.

Now to the woke part !!

Instead of trying to enlighten this group...and i'm all for a gentle and loving approach, the woke leftists have alienated the people who were already progressive and liberal by any international standard.
By reaching to far..
Today i had to work in the theater and a person told me the theater received countless of complaints daily because the toilets with 'ladies and gentlemen '' were replaced by pictures with two distinct looking toilets. One that fits a ''penis'' and one that fits both.

Mad dog Geert Wilders is growing in the poles in Trumpean fashion.
Why ? because those really threatening our liberal values, are treated with silk gloves and those who already are liberated must also surrender the last bits...like the examples i gave about language pollution about ''person's giving birth instead of women giving birth''.
Furthermore many companies changed supermarket and grocery Christmas articles in ''Winter festivity'' articles. And Eastern articles in ' spring festivity' articles.
Their explanation was to include other cultures who don't feel acquainted with the Christian faith.
It was extremely noticeably for anyone going into a supermarket. The average liberated Dutch person gnashed his/her/it teeth . This was going in the wrong direction !


And i personally understand Muslims very well. I have been at least as radical. so i will never vote for a ''Geert Wilders'' And i don't want interference with their religion by some laws either.
But the ridiculous 'look the other way' from liberals and trying to make the Netherlands even more woke/liberal is stunningly hypocrite.

[Kiahanie]

No it was not a little thing.
 ••••
Is it so hard to understand how emotionally driven this whole thing is ?
••••
I have to meet the first person in real life who fully agrees with this new language pollution.
Even i , who considers myself a moderate liberal and a hardcore socialist, am vulnerable to 'see' a conspiracy in this whole agenda to alter our language.
What for ? What are we aiming for ?

^^^^^ I dunno. You're the one who thinks they maybe see a conspiracy.

I think you are the one that needs to answer "What for? What are we aiming for?" Otherwise you are imagining connections that don't exist between dots that may or may not exist.

We all have our crosses to bear. You have people interested in language of inclusion. We have people like meAgain.

That's a bit condescending Kiahanie.
There is an clear underlying agenda to re-write the historical meaning of men and women .
And it's a bunch of woke intellectuals which forces this agenda. The majority is against this development, yet it is ignored.
••••

I am calling generic bulls**t here. You have words without enough content to qualify as a reasonable opinion.

Be specific:

1) What is that "historical meaning of men and women" of which you speak?

The meanings we have heard here are pretty much confined to the desert religions. Others have different histories. Look at indigenous non-European histories throughout the world. Much older histories. Many more of them, too.

2) What is that agenda? To what purpose the agenda? Tell us more about that "conspiracy." Is it local to The Netherlands?

3) Who are those "woke intellectuals"? Medical professionals?

4) Who are the "majority...against this development"? Medical professionals?

All this may be self-evident over there. Over here statements like that need some support.

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••

I am curious about your use of the pejorative "woke." Over here the word means

chiefly US slang
1
1a: aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)
Often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action

It is strange to me that an avowed progressive would be using the word this way. You are using the language of the recidivists to frame the topic.

Why on earth would you do that?

The Netherlands was a country of tolerance for decades.∆
••••
But the ridiculous 'look the other way' from liberals and trying to make the Netherlands even more woke/liberal is stunningly hypocrite.

Acknowledging that we are all in this together, there is a division of labor: Geert Wilders and minions are your problem. Trump and his minions are our problem to solve.

The background you provided was very helpful. Particularly the Muslim section. Y'all are experiencing the age old phenomenon of immigration culture clashes and a multicultural society.

We have a lot of experience with that. Your account of it all seems to be going in the wrong direction. Sounds like the northern US when the former slaves left the South, or the West Coast when the Chinese moved from mining and railroads into cities.

We will be glad to share our conclusions and advice with you.

So what is your definition of "woke"?

[dutchy]

I am calling generic bulls**t here. You have words without enough content to qualify as a reasonable opinion.

1) What is that "historical meaning of men and women" of which you speak?

That what the vast majority on earth think/believe/'know' what a 'man' or 'woman' means from a biological perspective.
Men have penises and women vagina's and can give birth to children, because they have a womb and men have not.
Most agree that nature makes mistakes and that it messes up the sexes in very rare cases.
But other than those extremely small numbers of dual sexes, it's pretty straightforward.
A bit along the lines of what Richard Dawkins claims if you really want a more sophisticated take :
You may argue about "gender" if you wish (biologists have better things to do) but sex is a true binary, one of rather few in biology. .
In 2022 the Cambridge dictionary was changed. What is a woman ?
an adult who lives and identifies as female though they may have been said to have a different sex at birth:
You know there is a season gender ?
People who identify as woman/man depending on a specific season ?
An example that people will claim whatever they want to claim about their gender.
So is there a final frontier when certain 'claims'' about a person's ''gender'' lose all meaning ?
Or is it up to the individual to stretch his/her/it identity claims well and beyond any known territory ?
Please an honest answer Kiahanie.
Are there any limits how people can identify themselves ..gender wise ?
Do you have any objections at all, or is it an endless palette of possibilities ? Again i want to know where your final frontier is.
I personally don't even want to know how people identify themselves...they are human beings to me.
And i want to relate to them as a human being.
I am a man, but i identify myself as a human being 95% of the time and treat others as humans.
 

Sorry..i think woke means forcing 'liberal enlightenment'' when there is no real need for it.
We were going in the right direction anyway.

[none]

I'm updating my birth certificate to say Sir.

[dutchy]

I'm updating my birth certificate to say Sir.

Yes Sir !!

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••
Sorry..i think woke means forcing 'liberal enlightenment'' when there is no real need for it.
We were going in the right direction anyway.

Given the turmoil, it does not look like you have been going in the right direction. This is where you could use lessons we have learned from our history.

This is worth discussing by itself. I will reply to the bulk of your post in a while.

[Kiahanie]

I am calling generic bulls**t here. You have words without enough content to qualify as a reasonable opinion.

1) What is that "historical meaning of men and women" of which you speak?

That what the vast majority on earth think/believe/'know' what a 'man' or 'woman' means from a biological perspective.
••••

You are saying that in the present tense because it is not a "historical truth." You have abandoned the pretense of historicity.

••••
Men have penises and women vagina's and can give birth to children, because they have a womb and men have not.
••••
A bit along the lines of what Richard Dawkins claims if you really want a more sophisticated take :
••••

Screw Richard Dawkins. If you want a sophisticated take on the non binary nature of biological sex, read Kevin's posts.

••••
So is there a final frontier when certain 'claims'' about a person's ''gender'' lose all meaning ?
••••

You would need to ask a person making those claims. My assumption is that their gender id is meaningful to them unless I have reason to believe otherwise.

••••
Or is it up to the individual to stretch his/her/it identity claims well and beyond any known territory ?
••••

Yes, it is up to the individual to decide which piece of territory to occupy. The territory may be unknown to you, but not to others.

••••
Please an honest answer Kiahanie.
••••

If I give an answer it is always honest. If I refuse to answer, the refusal is also honest.

••••
Are there any limits how people can identify themselves ..gender wise ?
••••

Not as far as I am concerned. Why are you concerned?

••••
Do you have any objections at all, or is it an endless palette of possibilities ? Again i want to know where your final frontier is.
••••

I have no objection to a person assuming whatever gender identity suits them as long as there is no harm to others or themselves. I do not know what you intend as a "palette of possibilities".

What, specifically, is your problem? You seem to be having a difficult time adjusting to people different than yourself.

[8livesleft]

Most agree that nature makes mistakes and that it messes up the sexes in very rare cases.

Another way to see it is that such strict gender dualism simply does not exist in nature.

There are species that can change sexes depending on need. And hundreds of species with homosexual behavior.

The capacity to go either way exists in these species, and all it takes is for certain conditions to trigger the capacity.

Here's the other thing, the parts themselves aren't all that different if you look at their primary functions: urination, sexual pleasure. The parts basically do the same thing, that's why sex change is possible where parts are basically reused but in a different form.

The only difference really is reproduction - which in my opinion isn't a primary function since it only becomes major in a temporary basis and stops altogether at a certain age and completely unnecessary for the individual's survival and well-being.

[meAgain]

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[none]

A decent report on transgender insanity. 

looks like siskel and ebert  movie review about puppets except these people have no authority to be movie reviewers