So JW is not a religion now

[wabbit111]

According to the Norwegian government.

" in a move that's both long overdue and shocking, the Norwegian government said it would no longer provide funding to the Jehovah's Witnesses because of the religious sect's cult-like practices."

https://onlysky.media/hemant-mehta/norway-will-no-longer-fund-the-jehovahs-witnesses/

[8livesleft]

Apprently...

1. The Witnesses engage in the practice of Disfellowshipping. That means former JWs who leave the religion are effectively excommunicated

2. If a child in a JW family "makes it a habit to break the moral standards of the Bible and does not repent," the Witnesses teach, they are also to be treated as pariahs...child can no longer "have contact with other close family (including grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins) or friends."

Reminds me of some practices of Scientology, but in a less extreme way, I suppose, since scientology disallows contact with immediate family. 

But it still exists in Norway, it's just that they will no longer be funding it. 

Amazing that a very wealthy country would even fund religion. 

[wabbit111]

The thing I find interesting is that the Norwegian government has branded them a cult, as a reason for removing their funding.

[8livesleft]

"Cult-like" it says hehe

I've heard of much worse from other groups but at any rate, it's nice that Norway is aiming for inclusivity and freedom. 

[Novice]

Surprising. I actually found JW to be more palatable than other sects. How do they define what constitutes a cult?

[wabbit111]

Surprising. I actually found JW to be more palatable than other sects. 

Agreed, and they were more fun to debate with.

Apparently the cult status is to do with their intolerance of religious freedom:-

" The reason for the withdrawal is the exclusionary practice that the Jehovah's Witnesses uphold when someone in the community breaks religious rules, Vart Land reported on Thursday. "In our opinion, the religious community violates the members' rights to free expression. We believe this violates the members' right to freedom of religion", the statement of the State Administrator reads. In addition, the government body argues that the Jehovah's Witnesses violate the rights of children by allowing the exclusion of baptised members."

https://cne.news/article/2289-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-lose-registration-religious-community

[Novice]

Surprising. I actually found JW to be more palatable than other sects.

Agreed, and they were more fun to debate with.

Apparently the cult status is to do with their intolerance of religious freedom:-

" The reason for the withdrawal is the exclusionary practice that the Jehovah's Witnesses uphold when someone in the community breaks religious rules, Vart Land reported on Thursday. "In our opinion, the religious community violates the members' rights to free expression. We believe this violates the members' right to freedom of religion", the statement of the State Administrator reads. In addition, the government body argues that the Jehovah's Witnesses violate the rights of children by allowing the exclusion of baptised members."

https://cne.news/article/2289-jehovah-s-witnesses-norway-lose-registration-religious-community

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

[kevin]

the chinese are tbe same way but they take more away than the money

[Jstwebbrowsing]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

[wabbit111]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

[kevin]

its tricky.

the state is merely asserting that the witnesses do not follow state-approved religious practices. therefore they are not eligible for state money.

that makes sense, but its an odd form of meddling.

but the staye also says that the witnesses can no longer perform marriages. they will anywauy, so what it means is that the state no longer recognizes witness marriages as valid. obvious implications here for child custody and inheritance.

but thats no different from tbe states. you have to have a government marriage icense to be legal in most states, and once you pay your 25 bucks, youre married whether you have a reigious service or not

[Kiahanie]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

[wabbit111]

I think thats the point Kiahanie, the government are refusing to subsidize it because the JW's refuse to let people have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.  But it shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law.  It's like they give you a right and punish you for using it.

[kevin]

its not clear to me exactly what the norge government is upset about.

the translation is unclear to me

[Kiahanie]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.  But it shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law.  It's like they give you a right and punish you for using it.

First, a subsidy is not necessarily a "right." That depends in how the law/constitution is written.

Second, why is it that Norway "shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law"? Government funds are disbursed and withheld for many reasons the law does not address.

Normally governments fund things they think benefit the country. While sects may think they are beneficial to society (or not care whether), most societies disapprove of groups isolating themselves from the broader community, social norms and authority.. Governments will generally favor cohesion over splintering.

Might be similar to US govt removing 501c tax exemptions from an organization that gets too political.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.  But it shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law.  It's like they give you a right and punish you for using it.

First, a subsidy is not necessarily a "right." That depends in how the law/constitution is written.

Second, why is it that Norway "shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law"? Government funds are disbursed and withheld for many reasons the law does not address.

Normally governments fund things they think benefit the country. While sects may think they are beneficial to society (or not care whether), most societies disapprove of groups isolating themselves from the broader community, social norms and authority.. Governments will generally favor cohesion over splintering.

Might be similar to US govt removing 501c tax exemptions from an organization that gets too political.

We are not just talking about funds.  They are trying to take away their right to be a religion. 

[Kiahanie]

How is that? I know nothing about Norwegian law. How are they preventing you from believing your beliefs,  worshipping, speaking, evangelizing, knocking on doors?

[wabbit111]

How is that? I know nothing about Norwegian law. How are they preventing you from believing your beliefs,  worshipping, speaking, evangelizing, knocking on doors?

They aren't. JW's can carry on their normal daily lives as before. However their status as a recognised religion has been removed and as a result, their government funding.

[kevin]

the norwegians are disallowing marriage in the church.

that is a direct attack on allowing witnesses to practice their religion and is totally different from simply not giving them public money.

if the irish government decreed that roman catholic marriages were invalid, the pope would blow a gasket.

[8livesleft]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

This is what I don't understand. Do these institutions even need support? They don't get support in even the poorest countries yet they seem to be thriving well enough.

[8livesleft]

https://www.jw.org/en/news/region/norway/Norwegian-Court-Grants-Jehovahs-Witnesses-Request-to-Suspend-Deregistration/

Of course they have appealed. Doesn't mean they will be successful. Watch this space I guess.

People ought to have the right to choose their associations in their private lives.

Sure, but why should the government subsidize it?

I'm not saying it should or shouldn't.  But it shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law.  It's like they give you a right and punish you for using it.

First, a subsidy is not necessarily a "right." That depends in how the law/constitution is written.

Second, why is it that Norway "shouldn't discriminate against those not breaking the law"? Government funds are disbursed and withheld for many reasons the law does not address.

Normally governments fund things they think benefit the country. While sects may think they are beneficial to society (or not care whether), most societies disapprove of groups isolating themselves from the broader community, social norms and authority.. Governments will generally favor cohesion over splintering.

Might be similar to US govt removing 501c tax exemptions from an organization that gets too political.

We are not just talking about funds.  They are trying to take away their right to be a religion.

Is that what's happening? It just seems like the state isn't recognising their status. That doesn't mean that they can't continue operating. 

[wabbit111]

This is what I don't understand. Do these institutions even need support? They don't get support in even the poorest countries yet they seem to be thriving well enough.

Not sure they do need it, however I would think it's more about the stigma of being described as cult like and the fact their marriages will not be deemed legal any more.

[Kiahanie]

I would like to know the Norwegian rationale for subsidizing religions. That might have something to do with unsubsidizing.

[Kiahanie]

This is helpful. Part of their Freedom of Religion restitution. Probably law, not constitution:

Any person over the age of 15 has the right to join or leave a religious community. Parents have the right to decide their child's religion before age 15, but they must take into consideration the views of children once they reach the age of 7 and give their views priority once they reach the age of 12.

Sounds like that may give Witness congregations cause for concern.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

How is that? I know nothing about Norwegian law. How are they preventing you from believing your beliefs,  worshipping, speaking, evangelizing, knocking on doors?

If they are not recognized as a religion then they have no rights or protections as a religion, such as being unable to perform marriages between members. 


 

[Kiahanie]

I think they will allow you folk to marry people, but you will need a civil license for it to be kegsl.

Like the Quakers often do. Oregon accepts certificate from the meeting signed by every person present at that Meeting for Worship with a Concern for Marriage.

[8livesleft]

This is what I don't understand. Do these institutions even need support? They don't get support in even the poorest countries yet they seem to be thriving well enough.

Not sure they do need it, however I would think it's more about the stigma of being described as cult like and the fact their marriages will not be deemed legal any more.

I suppose. 

But I'm sure the marriage issue is more of an inconvenience. In some other countries, those who want to get married have to get civilly married in court first and the religious ceremony is just that, a ceremony that comes after. 

[wabbit111]

Do we have a definitive idea of what constitutes a cult, and are the Norwegians correct in this regard. I ask as I am now worried I may be an unwitting member of a cult.