The Atheist's Dilemma

[TallRed]

What about your faith beliefs (in bold) that follow,
Provide the necessary scientific emperical evidence of proof
That your propositions can withstand any and all intellectual challenges.

Ah, more ?whataboutism.? As usual, this is a shifting of the burden of proof. Your task (indeed, your theistic dilemma) is to show why you do such inexplicable things as quoting the Bible to unbelievers. You must know that unbelievers don?t accept the authority of the Bible, so its use is in fact a waste of time. If you would like to start a thread alleging that I have ?faith beliefs? and those so-called ?faith beliefs? include the emboldened statements, feel free to do so. Before doing so, however, realize that your burden of proof includes showing unequivocally that those statements represent ?faith beliefs? and be sure to define ?faith beliefs.?

[Goombah]

Ah, more ?whataboutism.? As usual, this is a shifting of the burden of proof. Your task (indeed, your theistic dilemma) is to show why you do such inexplicable things as quoting the Bible to unbelievers.

Because it has proven effective .

You must know that unbelievers don?t accept the authority of the Bible, so its use is in fact a waste of time.

Except for the untold millions of conversions that were the result of doing just that.

[TallRed]

I have yet to see any reliable statistics on that topic. Anecdotes aren?t impressive.

[Goombah]

I have yet to see any reliable statistics on that topic. Anecdotes aren?t impressive.

You have no knowledge of the fact that virtually all conversions to Christianity are based on Scripture?
Probably one of the most prevalent teaching for making a person a new convert would be the doctrine of Baptism in one form or another.Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

[TallRed]

I have yet to see any reliable statistics on that topic. Anecdotes aren?t impressive.

You have no knowledge of the fact that virtually all conversions to Christianity are based on Scripture?
Probably one of the most prevalent teaching for making a person a new convert would be the doctrine of Baptism in one form or another.Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

You?re using ?unbeliever? differently than I was. If someone has never heard of the Bible or Jesus, they can easily be duped into thinking that the contents of the Bible are true, real, and correct, then, sure, they can be fooled. But Mr Shave It is talking to someone who is familiar with the Bible and has read it, analyzed it, and found it less than credible. So I am not likely to be fooled by specious claims from an ancient book of magical spells. Thus his use of the Bible as a weapon of mass distraction is a colossal failure.

By the way, you still failed to cite statistics backing up your original claim.

[Goombah]

I have yet to see any reliable statistics on that topic. Anecdotes aren?t impressive.

You have no knowledge of the fact that virtually all conversions to Christianity are based on Scripture?
Probably one of the most prevalent teaching for making a person a new convert would be the doctrine of Baptism in one form or another.Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

You?re using ?unbeliever? differently than I was. If someone has never heard of the Bible or Jesus, they can easily be duped into thinking that the contents of the Bible are true, real, and correct, then, sure, they can be fooled.

The Bible is only effective on special unbelievers which you designate?
If a person grows up with knowledge of The Bible they are brainwashed and if they are raised without any Bible knowledge they are duped?

But Mr Shave It is talking to someone who is familiar with the Bible and has read it, analyzed it, and found it less than credible. So I am not likely to be fooled by specious claims from an ancient book of magical spells. Thus his use of the Bible as a weapon of mass distraction is a colossal failure.

That falls short of explaining atheist conversions that occur even when the individuals fit the description above.

By the way, you still failed to cite statistics backing up your original claim.

The Christians are the stats.You aren't a Christian unless you are exposed to Bible teaching or doctrines in one form or another.

[TallRed]

The Bible is only effective on special unbelievers which you designate?
If a person grows up with knowledge of The Bible they are brainwashed and if they are raised without any Bible knowledge they are duped?

I didn?t mention brainwashing. I would say, ?indoctrinated.?

That falls short of explaining atheist conversions that occur even when the individuals fit the description above.

Probably few and far between, in the absence of actual facts.

The Christians are the stats.You aren't a Christian unless you are exposed to Bible teaching or doctrines in one form or another.

That?s not the issue. The issue is the number of atheist conversions. You?ve offered up exactly zero statistics so far, only anecdotes.

[Mr. Blackwell]

The issue is the number of atheist conversions. You?ve offered up exactly zero statistics so far, only anecdotes.

What is the difference between an unbeliever and an atheist? I only ask because you originally used the word "unbeliever" but not so subtly changed it to atheist. So, why are you changing the goal post? Is winning an internet debate really so important to you that you will use every trick in the book to gaslight people of faith?


Oh...s**t...I almost forgot

[Goombah]

The Bible is only effective on special unbelievers which you designate?
If a person grows up with knowledge of The Bible they are brainwashed and if they are raised without any Bible knowledge they are duped?

I didn?t mention brainwashing. I would say, ?indoctrinated.?

Brainwashed is used as a synonym for indoctrinated in the Thesaurus I looked at.
We'd be splitting hairs at this point I guess.

That falls short of explaining atheist conversions that occur even when the individuals fit the description above.

Probably few and far between, in the absence of actual facts.

That those converts were atheists or that they really converted.
What facts are there to prove either claim?

The Christians are the stats.You aren't a Christian unless you are exposed to Bible teaching or doctrines in one form or another.

That?s not the issue. The issue is the number of atheist conversions. You?ve offered up exactly zero statistics so far, only anecdotes.

What statistics? Someone surveying converts in China? I can point out former atheists who converted: C.S.Lewis,Francis Collins ,Rosalind Picard (although she was indoctrinated as an atheist growing up if that counts) and the list goes on.
The point is that Christianity spread throughout the world because great men and women became missionaries to spread The Word aka The Bible.With adherents to Christ numbering in the billions using the bible on unbelievers was anything but a "waste of time".

[bad actor]

People convert to, and de-convert from all kinds of different religions and belief sets. Sometimes they switch among a few different ones until they find the one that they are comfortable with. My cousin was raised Catholic/Mormon then went full Mormon with one husband and now is married to a decent guy who is from Morocco and she is pretty much Muslim. Not full on, but Muslims from that country are pretty liberal compared to like Saudi Arabia and that type.

She see's ghost's and feel spirits and has blessings and prayers answered blah, blah, blah.. It's been that way no matter which one of the flavors of faith she has followed. Same results.

When I was going through years of court ordered N/A meetings I would see people that were either atheists, or inactive believers, find god all the time. Part of that program is 'surrender to a higher power, or god as you understand him/her." Back in those days, I was and atheist, but really more of an agnostic because I really hadn't thought it through much. I tried a little bit to fake it, but to no avail.

In N/A you find a whole lot of folks that had led lives of confusion and turmoil that are at various stages of recovery. The program taught them that they were powerless over their addictions and had to surrender to the higher power.

They also have a whole lot of real world recovery advice/steps for dealing with life as a recovering addict. Really, that is what gets you through recovery. No supernatural powers needed. You can't pray the addiction away. Nobody ever recovered without putting in the real world work. Yet, so many put in the work and credit the prayer.

Most people failed and failed hard over and over and over again. But eventually, they got it right and since it seemed like such a miracle to them, they credited the "higher power."I failed over and over too. However, I just dealt with addiction and recovery using many of the same steps and had the same experiences that they did. No higher power acknowledged, none needed.

Life happens. Sometimes good, and sometimes not so good. Can I say for sure that the Christian wasn't healed by the Christian god? How about Gladys Knight, the most famous BLACK Mormon who swears that the church and it's version of Christianity got her over her severe gambling addiction? Was it the Mormon version of god that did it?

You would be surprised to know that there are plenty of Muslims thanking Allah for removing their addictions too.Millions of people have had miraculous results with life from Scientology!Some people need the support of belonging to a group. Especially ones that appear to give life a bigger meaning. To me, that is what all of those various groups, religions, or whatever provide.

Again life happens to you and some of it is favorable and some of it is not. Different people filter it all through different belief systems, or "reality tunnels" as Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson used to put it.

We all have reality tunnels we experience life through.

Atheist's just don't have any gods in them. 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_tunnel

Reality tunnel is a theory that, with a subconscious set of mental filters formed from beliefs and experiences, every individual interprets the same world differently, hence "Truth is in the eye of the beholder". It is similar to the idea of representative realism, and was coined by Timothy Leary (1920?1996). It was further expanded on by Robert Anton Wilson (1932-2007), who wrote about the idea extensively in his 1983 book Prometheus Rising.

The idea does not necessarily imply that there is no objective truth; rather that our access to it is mediated through our senses, experience, conditioning, prior beliefs, and other non-objective factors. The implied individual world each person occupies is said to be their reality tunnel. The term can also apply to groups of people united by beliefs: we can speak of the fundamentalist Christian reality tunnel or the ontological naturalist reality tunnel.

A parallel can be seen in the psychological concept of confirmation bias?the human tendency to notice and assign significance to observations that confirm existing beliefs, while filtering out or rationalizing away observations that do not fit with prior beliefs and expectations. This helps to explain why reality tunnels are usually transparent to their inhabitants. While it seems most people take their beliefs to correspond to the "one true objective reality", Robert Anton Wilson emphasizes that each person's reality tunnel is their own artistic creation, whether they realize it or not. 

[kevin]

You have no knowledge of the fact that virtually all conversions to Christianity are based on Scripture?

not mine.

Probably one of the most prevalent teaching for making a person a new convert would be the doctrine of Baptism in one form or another..

not mine.

Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.

not mine.

One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

not my bible.

the jury is still out on my belief, but books and rites aren't part of it, any more than they were part of it for the apostles.

[Inertialmass]

Oh my sufferin' cognitive dissonance!!!

...Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

...Most Christians in the last 2,000 years never saw or owned a Holy Bible:
God's word is a useful tool, but Christianity could easily survive without it. 

[bad actor]

^^^ Ha ha... I swear to FSM that I remembered that same post from eyes after reading that from Goombah.

I just didn't feel like searching for it. 

[Inertialmass]

Seems like a really useful schtick for rationalizing the increasingly shaky provenance of canonical scripture.

Betcha somebody's took an opinion poll and got the stats -- bible thumper christers versus free wheelin' christers.

I just don't feel like searching for it.   

[TallRed]

What statistics? Someone surveying converts in China? I can point out former atheists who converted: C.S.Lewis,Francis Collins ,Rosalind Picard (although she was indoctrinated as an atheist growing up if that counts) and the list goes on.
The point is that Christianity spread throughout the world because great men and women became missionaries to spread The Word aka The Bible.With adherents to Christ numbering in the billions using the bible on unbelievers was anything but a "waste of time".

Let me be blunt. I?m talking about atheists who have deconverted from Christianity or other religions through reason. I?m talking about the fortunate few who grew up without religion and have resisted efforts by well-meaning but misguided theists to convert them to an essentially irrational belief system which lacks any foundation in empirical facts.

I?m not talking about easily misled dunces who tend to believe anything some demagogue tells them. I?m also not talking about so-called ?atheists? who consider themselves that because they don?t attend church. I?m not talking about unbelievers who convert to some religion in their dotage like the self-described ?notorious? atheist Antony Flew.

Let me remind you that it?s immaterial that ?billions? are said to follow the edicts of Christianity. Besides the fact that it?s a logical fallacy, it?s also just plain foolishness to claim that the sheer numbers of believers somehow make the belief true. As Bertrand Russell once said, "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing."

[8livesleft]

The point is that Christianity spread throughout the world because great men and women became missionaries to spread The Word aka The Bible.With adherents to Christ numbering in the billions using the bible on unbelievers was anything but a "waste of time".

The reason why Christians number in the billions today is because European monarchs used it to subjugate whole populations which happen to have a very high birthrate. The people had no choice. Nowadays, the belief system has kept its footing due to forced habit and a very shallow understanding of the Bible.

That's why Cognitive Dissonance is more prevalent in conquered nations.

"Billions" of christians, but mostly only in name and habit.

Majority haven't read/analyzed the bible fully, which for me, is a prerequisite to being Christian.

And if I were to guess, those that fit that description would probably be a couple hundred thousand (excluding priests/ministers).

[eyeshaveit]

Oh my sufferin' cognitive dissonance!!!

...Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

...Most Christians in the last 2,000 years never saw or owned a Holy Bible:
God's word is a useful tool, but Christianity could easily survive without it. 

Most Christians today are without a Bible in hand, but they are familiar with the contents:

"Do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.? - Luke 12.

"But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you" - 1 Peter 3.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Oh my sufferin' cognitive dissonance!!!

...Pretty much universal across the Christian denominations.An unbeliever would be instructed about Bible teachings on the subject then be baptized prior to or as a sign of their conversion.One of several basic Bible teachings presented for an unbeliever to become a Christian.

...Most Christians in the last 2,000 years never saw or owned a Holy Bible:
God's word is a useful tool, but Christianity could easily survive without it. 

Most Christians today are without a Bible in hand, but they are familiar with the contents:

"Do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.? - Luke 12.

"But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you" - 1 Peter 3.

Trust in God and the Holy Spirit and just shoot from the hip. As long as you let them guide you, you will never miss because they are the ones writing the script.


Luck favors the prepared but faith subjugates your will.

[eyeshaveit]

Trust in God and the Holy Spirit and just shoot from the hip.

I shoot by using both hands,
Or if I have time by nesting my right forearm between my left forearm and left upper arm.

[Inertialmass]

Or if I have time by nesting my right forearm between my left forearm and left upper arm.

Nesting, you say?:

[Goombah]

What statistics? Someone surveying converts in China? I can point out former atheists who converted: C.S.Lewis,Francis Collins ,Rosalind Picard (although she was indoctrinated as an atheist growing up if that counts) and the list goes on.
The point is that Christianity spread throughout the world because great men and women became missionaries to spread The Word aka The Bible.With adherents to Christ numbering in the billions using the bible on unbelievers was anything but a "waste of time".

Let me be blunt. I?m talking about atheists who have deconverted from Christianity or other religions through reason. I?m talking about the fortunate few who grew up without religion and have resisted efforts by well-meaning but misguided theists to convert them to an essentially irrational belief system which lacks any foundation in empirical facts.

So unbelievers is now changed into former believers?

Let me remind you that it?s immaterial that ?billions? are said to follow the edicts of Christianity. Besides the fact that it?s a logical fallacy, it?s also just plain foolishness to claim that the sheer numbers of believers somehow make the belief true. As Bertrand Russell once said, "If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing."

It doesn't necessarily prove it is true but that it was effective.I thought that was the point.
Because Bertrand Russell makes a remarkably simplistic statement  that doesn't somehow turn it into something profound.

[bad actor]

[quote

The reason why Christians number in the billions today is because European monarchs used it to subjugate whole populations which happen to have a very high birthrate. The people had no choice. Nowadays, the belief system has kept its footing due to forced habit and a very shallow understanding of the Bible.

Right. I'm guessing that you can see that clearly in the Philippines.

Living in the S.W. United States, I've been exposed to a lot of Mexicans and Mexican American people who are Catholic. For them, it's just a part of life that isn't really questioned. One of my best friends is Mex/American and although he doesn't go to church or read the Bible, the rituals are always there. Prayer at every meal with the cross sign, Crucifixes everywhere.

A good chunk of Christians on the planet are really just following a religion forced upon them by their conquerors.

It gets passed from generation to generation.

[TallRed]

So unbelievers is now changed into former believers?

That?s how I was using it. I apologize for the confusion.

It doesn't necessarily prove it is true but that it was effective.I thought that was the point.
Because Bertrand Russell makes a remarkably simplistic statement  that doesn't somehow turn it into something profound.

Sometimes great profundities are contained in simple statements. Many believers are under the impression that since ?billions? are nominal Christians, that makes Christianity true and real. More to the point, I have seen few examples of humans regaining their rationality only to switch it off again.

[TallRed]

[quote

The reason why Christians number in the billions today is because European monarchs used it to subjugate whole populations which happen to have a very high birthrate. The people had no choice. Nowadays, the belief system has kept its footing due to forced habit and a very shallow understanding of the Bible.

Right. I'm guessing that you can see that clearly in the Philippines.

Living in the S.W. United States, I've been exposed to a lot of Mexicans and Mexican American people who are Catholic. For them, it's just a part of life that isn't really questioned. One of my best friends is Mex/American and although he doesn't go to church or read the Bible, the rituals are always there. Prayer at every meal with the cross sign, Crucifixes everywhere.

A good chunk of Christians on the planet are really just following a religion forced upon them by their conquerors.

It gets passed from generation to generation.

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

[bad actor]

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

I actually think that formal debate should be mandatory in high school.

It's good for the brain to learn how to argue for and against a new subject.

It's a very useful exercise that will help a person immensely throughout life.

[TallRed]

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

I actually think that formal debate should be mandatory in high school.

It's good for the brain to learn how to argue for and against a new subject.

It's a very useful exercise that will help a person immensely throughout life.

I agree completely. My high school debate teacher liked to give me the worst possible resolutions, like ?Slavery was better for the blacks than emancipation? and ?Germany benefitted from the Nazi Party.?

[8livesleft]

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

I actually think that formal debate should be mandatory in high school.

It's good for the brain to learn how to argue for and against a new subject.

It's a very useful exercise that will help a person immensely throughout life.

I agree completely. My high school debate teacher liked to give me the worst possible resolutions, like ?Slavery was better for the blacks than emancipation? and ?Germany benefitted from the Nazi Party.?

Speaking of which, back in my Theology class in college I argued that religion was a form of slavery and that the ritual of infant baptism should be abolished. Hehe





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[TallRed]

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

I actually think that formal debate should be mandatory in high school.

It's good for the brain to learn how to argue for and against a new subject.

It's a very useful exercise that will help a person immensely throughout life.

I agree completely. My high school debate teacher liked to give me the worst possible resolutions, like ?Slavery was better for the blacks than emancipation? and ?Germany benefitted from the Nazi Party.?

Speaking of which, back in my Theology class in college I argued that religion was a form of slavery and that the ritual of infant baptism should be abolished. Hehe

You probably would have gotten bonus points if you had brought in the barbarity of the ritual of circumcision.

[8livesleft]

And few are taught critical thinking skills or even that it?s permitted and encouraged to question received wisdom.

I actually think that formal debate should be mandatory in high school.

It's good for the brain to learn how to argue for and against a new subject.

It's a very useful exercise that will help a person immensely throughout life.

I agree completely. My high school debate teacher liked to give me the worst possible resolutions, like ?Slavery was better for the blacks than emancipation? and ?Germany benefitted from the Nazi Party.?

Speaking of which, back in my Theology class in college I argued that religion was a form of slavery and that the ritual of infant baptism should be abolished. Hehe

You probably would have gotten bonus points if you had brought in the barbarity of the ritual of circumcision.

As bad as circumcision is, I personally think it's "better" on an aesthetic standpoint and I'm not sure but I think it's  more sanitary? Lol

And for our country, it was apparently already being done before the Spaniards came here. And indeed, it's more social pressure than anything else. We even have a derogatory term for uncircumcised guys here: "supot." It's kind of like calling someone a pu$$y.

What's bad is female genital mutilation in Africa. That, to me, is a far more barbarous practice that UN or world health should look into stopping for good.

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[Inertialmass]

it's  more sanitary? Lol

I'm skeptical of those reports claiming STD health benefits based on short-term associative correlation studies in adult African men. 

Like, who wants to have sex -- and maybe more important, who wants to be sex partners -- with a bandaged, bloody, scabbed, painful, newly-deformed penis???  Of course STD rates went down for a long time after these adult guys were circumcised!