protestants, are you saved?

[kevin]

folks, i'm interested in the protestant view of salvation. specifically, who gets it and how you know you're one of them, if you think you can tell.

one baptist/sinner prayer approach is to verbally perform an acknowledgment of the acceptance of grace, after which one's salvation is assured. my quaker son was entrapped into one of these as an eight-year-old as a guest at a church camp he attended with a friend. mostly he's forgotten the rite.

if you're an advocate of limited atonement, then you know that christ didn't die for everybody, but just for the elect. the old puritans used to worry endlessly about whether they were among the few, because they acknowledged that they couldn't tell. if you think christ died only for some and not for others, how do you know which group you belong to?

if you tend to the pelagian view rather than sola fide, what, if anything, makes you confident that your efforts are effective?

if you're an arminian, where do you draw the line?

folks, if you have an answer to this question, please address what justification is, in your theology, and how it affects your response.

thanks

[urs]

I think these are excellent questions. I am curious to hear the answers myself.

[davdi]

"Dressed in his righteousness alone
Faultless to stand before the throne."             Sanctification


I wonder if limited atonement is meant to say that not all will acknowledge Jesus as Lord till then.  It should also fit in with the idea that faith is necessary to receive grace.   For me it means that only God can make that decision. 

Though I am aware of Pelagianism, and since my mother defined herself arminian, I think neither of them make more sense than the other. 

As far as knowing, I think that's a trap that comes from an inerrancy style of theological interpretation. 

Do I know?  Do I care to know?  My job is to do what's right!  Leave God's decision to God. 

[kevin]

I wonder if limited atonement is meant to say that not all will acknowledge Jesus as Lord till then.  It should also fit in with the idea that faith is necessary to receive grace.   For me it means that only God can make that decision. 

hard to say. are the reprobate condemned because they behave that way? or do they behave that way because they've already been condemned?

the puritans were strong believers in the distinction between a visible church, which included everybody (even catholics), and an invisible church, which included only the elect. even if you tried your best, you could never tell whether you were good enough, or whether towards the end of your days you might be destined to fall away.

but i'm genuinely interested in how you can tell. i read people here on IGI that assert that they are numbered among the elect, and i'm curious how they come to that conclusion.

[Gnu Ordure]

i read people here on IGI that assert that they are numbered among the elect, and i'm curious how they come to that conclusion.

It's called wishful thinking.

"Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence, rationality, or reality." (wiki).

[davdi]

Again, I think knowing is a tricky situation.

"By this we know that we are saved because we love the brethren."   

"By this we know that we see saved because his spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are his." 

"Sheep know my voice, and no one shall take them out of my hand."   

"Father I have kept all you gave me."   

As far as visible and invisible church are concerned, I accept what tradition has dictated.  We are the visible church, those who preceded us in the faith and are "with God" are the invisible church. 

I don't pretend to tell God anything.  My work is to live my life to the best of my faith. 

[Case]

folks, i'm interested in the protestant view of salvation. specifically, who gets it and how you know you're one of them, if you think you can tell.

one baptist/sinner prayer approach is to verbally perform an acknowledgment of the acceptance of grace, after which one's salvation is assured. my quaker son was entrapped into one of these as an eight-year-old as a guest at a church camp he attended with a friend. mostly he's forgotten the rite.

if you're an advocate of limited atonement, then you know that christ didn't die for everybody, but just for the elect. the old puritans used to worry endlessly about whether they were among the few, because they acknowledged that they couldn't tell. if you think christ died only for some and not for others, how do you know which group you belong to?

if you tend to the pelagian view rather than sola fide, what, if anything, makes you confident that your efforts are effective?

if you're an arminian, where do you draw the line?

folks, if you have an answer to this question, please address what justification is, in your theology, and how it affects your response.

thanks

Kev,

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid. Justification is accompanied by sanctification, the process whereby God's people are actually made to be without sin.

Secondly, I suppose I don't believe it possible to know if one is saved or not, but I also don't feel its necessary to worry about it too much. The righteous live by faith, and that includes faith that we won't be snatched out of the Gods hand. Christ instructs us not to worry, for our Father knows the things that we need, but to seek first His kingdom and His righteousness. To put it another way, I think its wrong to boast about being saved, because Christians should, as Paul says, boast only about the cross of Christ. But to be constantly anxious over whether or not one is saved is living without faith in God.

When it comes to knowing whether or not other people are saved, we should never assume that the most heinous sinner can not be saved. Likewise we should not assume that the most seemingly righteous person is necessarily saved. Only God knows the hearts of men, and no one is incapable of being saved.

Ultimately, I agree with what davdi said,

Do I know?  Do I care to know?  My job is to do what's right!  Leave God's decision to God. 

Human beings are designed to praise God. Too much speculation on me, if I'm saved or if I'm not, makes the gospel about me, putting me in the place deserved by God alone.

[composer]

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid.

You are typically among those that are clueless regarding their own ideology & supposed supportive propaganda -

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts?as having died instead of us?as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us?death?he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, ?if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins? (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not ?forgiven,? for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God?the forgiveness of our sins ?through the forbearance of God? (Romans 3:25 ). (Blood of christ: R. Roberts)

[dutchy]

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid.

You are typically among those that are clueless regarding their own ideology & supposed supportive propaganda -

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts?as having died instead of us?as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us?death?he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, ?if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins? (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not ?forgiven,? for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God?the forgiveness of our sins ?through the forbearance of God? (Romans 3:25 ). (Blood of christ: R. Roberts)

Good post,

A true follower wants to follow the example set by his/her master(s).
If Jesus paid the debts towards God that we made, then why are so many reformed christians involved in capitalism (conservatives) ?
Don't they know it is based on a financial system that creates growth based upon artificially created debts instaed of human needs ?

I find it very strange that those who are so sure about Jesus paying for their debts, are perfectly comfortable when strangling others (or intire countries)in our society with debts.
If they truly believed Jesus payed for our debts, how can they ever be involved in a system that creates debts for their fellow human brothers and sisters ?
They know about the parable in Matthew 18 ..... do they ?

I never hear them properly addressing these topics, most of the time it is the usual lamentation about homsexuality and other supposed forms of immorality.

[Happy Evolute]

i'm interested in the protestant view of salvation. specifically, who gets it and how you know you're one of them, if you think you can tell.

Same way as the Catholics, just make it all up.

You can then argue your case in the traditional way ...

[kevin]

"By this we know that we are saved because we love the brethren."   

but i can love and not be saved.

"By this we know that we see saved because his spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are his."

. . . and we know this, how?

"Sheep know my voice, and no one shall take them out of my hand."   

. . . but am i one of the sheep, or not?

"Father I have kept all you gave me." 

. . . that didn't work for the rich young ruler.

As far as visible and invisible church are concerned, I accept what tradition has dictated.  We are the visible church, those who preceded us in the faith and are "with God" are the invisible church.

that's an interpretation i've never heard before, davdi.

I don't pretend to tell God anything.  My work is to live my life to the best of my faith.

yes. i agree. but the question was directed to those who know.

[kevin]

Kev,

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid. Justification is accompanied by sanctification, the process whereby God's people are actually made to be without sin.

case, at what point in one's life is one "actually made to be without sin?" when is this process completed?

Secondly, I suppose I don't believe it possible to know if one is saved or not, but I also don't feel its necessary to worry about it too much. The righteous live by faith, and that includes faith that we won't be snatched out of the Gods hand. Christ instructs us not to worry, for our Father knows the things that we need, but to seek first His kingdom and His righteousness.

the reprobate who live by faith are not snatched out of god's hand, case-- god opens his hand and lets them fall. or do you mean that the reprobate can never live by faith, and therefore their sanctification can never take place?

To put it another way, I think its wrong to boast about being saved, because Christians should, as Paul says, boast only about the cross of Christ. But to be constantly anxious over whether or not one is saved is living without faith in God.

can the reprobate have faith in god, or is that beyond their ability?

When it comes to knowing whether or not other people are saved, we should never assume that the most heinous sinner can not be saved. Likewise we should not assume that the most seemingly righteous person is necessarily saved. Only God knows the hearts of men, and no one is incapable of being saved.

so the issue is in the heart, and therefore the reprobates do NOT have genuine faith, and their apparent sanctification is superficial, possibly even to them.

Human beings are designed to praise God. Too much speculation on me, if I'm saved or if I'm not, makes the gospel about me, putting me in the place deserved by God alone.

nonetheless, you are here.

[John 3 16]

folks, i'm interested in the protestant view of salvation. specifically, who gets it and how you know you're one of them, if you think you can tell.

The only way that I can know I am saved is that I have received the holy spirit and he constantly testifies about it.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. (Romans 8:16)

[kevin]

The only way that I can know I am saved is that I have received the holy spirit. . . .

john, in the past you have not described this as an event, but rather have quoted scripture that asserts it as doctrine. how would a christian experience this moment or process, as it happens? smell, taste, sound, touch, hearing, revelation?

. . . and he constantly testifies about it.

in what way does the spirit testify about it, to those who are saved, that he does not do, to those that are unsaved?

[Case]

Kev,

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid. Justification is accompanied by sanctification, the process whereby God's people are actually made to be without sin.

case, at what point in one's life is one "actually made to be without sin?" when is this process completed?

Secondly, I suppose I don't believe it possible to know if one is saved or not, but I also don't feel its necessary to worry about it too much. The righteous live by faith, and that includes faith that we won't be snatched out of the Gods hand. Christ instructs us not to worry, for our Father knows the things that we need, but to seek first His kingdom and His righteousness.

the reprobate who live by faith are not snatched out of god's hand, case-- god opens his hand and lets them fall. or do you mean that the reprobate can never live by faith, and therefore their sanctification can never take place?

To put it another way, I think its wrong to boast about being saved, because Christians should, as Paul says, boast only about the cross of Christ. But to be constantly anxious over whether or not one is saved is living without faith in God.

can the reprobate have faith in god, or is that beyond their ability?

When it comes to knowing whether or not other people are saved, we should never assume that the most heinous sinner can not be saved. Likewise we should not assume that the most seemingly righteous person is necessarily saved. Only God knows the hearts of men, and no one is incapable of being saved.

so the issue is in the heart, and therefore the reprobates do NOT have genuine faith, and their apparent sanctification is superficial, possibly even to them.

Human beings are designed to praise God. Too much speculation on me, if I'm saved or if I'm not, makes the gospel about me, putting me in the place deserved by God alone.

nonetheless, you are here.

ugh. not this again. 

kevin, the difference between the elect and reprobate is that the former live by faith and the latter do not.

[Case]

First off, justification is the covering of sin for those who are in Christ. Through the atoning work of Christ, his people's sins are covered, their debt to God is paid.

You are typically among those that are clueless regarding their own ideology & supposed supportive propaganda -

THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is no operation of Divine wisdom that has been so completely misapprehended and misrepresented as the shedding of the blood of Christ. Popular preaching brings it down to a level with the sacrifices of idolatrous superstition, by which wrathful deities are supposed to be placated by the blood of a substitutionary victim. Christ is represented as having paid our debts?as having died instead of us?as having stood in our room like a substitute in military service, or like a man rushing to the scaffold where a criminal is about to be executed, and offering to die instead of him (a favourite illustration in the evangelical pulpit).

Such views are contradicted by even the most superficial facts of the case; for if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do); and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us?death?he ought not to have risen (which he did). And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, ?if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins? (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not ?forgiven,? for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God?the forgiveness of our sins ?through the forbearance of God? (Romans 3:25 ). (Blood of christ: R. Roberts)

Good post,

A true follower wants to follow the example set by his/her master(s).
If Jesus paid the debts towards God that we made, then why are so many reformed christians involved in capitalism (conservatives) ?
Don't they know it is based on a financial system that creates growth based upon artificially created debts instaed of human needs ?

I find it very strange that those who are so sure about Jesus paying for their debts, are perfectly comfortable when strangling others (or intire countries)in our society with debts.
If they truly believed Jesus payed for our debts, how can they ever be involved in a system that creates debts for their fellow human brothers and sisters ?
They know about the parable in Matthew 18 ..... do they ?

I never hear them properly addressing these topics, most of the time it is the usual lamentation about homsexuality and other supposed forms of immorality.

@dutchy

You're absolutely right.

[Case]

if Christ died instead of us, then we ought not to die (which we do);

Those who are in Christ are resurrected to eternal life.

and if he paid the penalty naturally due from us?death?he ought not to have risen (which he did).

Why? An infinite God can bear the punishment for all of humanity's sins and still remain infinite.

And if his death was of the character alleged, the redeeming power lay in itself and not in the resurrection that followed; whereas Paul declares to the Corinthians that, notwithstanding the death of Christ, ?if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain: ye are yet in your sins[/b]? (1- Corinthians 15:17).

Christ's resurrection is equally important as his death.

Further, if Christ has paid our debts, our debts are not ?forgiven,? for it would be out of place for a creditor to talk of having forgiven a debt which someone else has paid for the debtor; and thus is blotted out the very first feature of the gospel of the grace of God?the forgiveness of our sins ?through the forbearance of God[/b]? (Romans 3:25 ). (Blood of christ: R. Roberts)

That's not true... If I owe a debt, my friend can pay it for me. Why should the creditor care who pays it?

[Gnu Ordure]

That's not true... If I owe a debt, my friend can pay it for me. Why should the creditor care who pays it?

Except in this case the creditor is God, and the person offering to pay the debt is... er ... God.

Which makes no sense at all.



God (the Father) to Human Being: You owe me $1 billion; if you don't pay up, you're going to suffer.

HB: Oh noes!! I don't got no billion dollars. I'm doomed!!

God (the Son): Never fear, little HB. I will pay your debt to G the F, who is me, really.

HB: Phew! That was close. Thanks, G the S.

G the S: Pas de problemo, little HB. Consider it done. But, if you don't do exactly what I say for the rest of your life, the debt won't be paid, and I'm going to make you suffer.

HB: What the f**k?

[davdi]

The best part is GO, God doesn't speak English, to the best of my knowledge, God communicates in the language you are most familiar with. 

Atheists laugh and call it suggestibility.  The problem is the atheist doesn't care.  The atheist doesn't accept, so, even if the atheist heard God speaking, the atheist would only pass it off as paranoia.  Fine. 

[Case]

That's not true... If I owe a debt, my friend can pay it for me. Why should the creditor care who pays it?

Except in this case the creditor is God, and the person offering to pay the debt is... er ... God.

Which makes no sense at all.

The creditor is God and the debtor is is humankind. The person paying the debt is fully human and fully God, meaning that in Christ humanity's debt to God is repaid.

[GratefulApe]

What does the Bible say a "protestant" is? I doubt you'll find that title.

[kevin]

ugh. not this again. 

kevin, the difference between the elect and reprobate is that the former live by faith and the latter do not.

yes. the elect are elect because they have faith. the reprobate do not have faith, and this condemns them. i understand your point of view.

how do you know whether you are living by faith, or whether you have it wrong?

[kevin]

What does the Bible say a "protestant" is? I doubt you'll find that title.

grateful, only a protestant would consider that significant.

[John 3 16]

john, in the past you have not described this as an event, but rather have quoted scripture that asserts it as doctrine. how would a christian experience this moment or process, as it happens? smell, taste, sound, touch, hearing, revelation?

Do God's works have to be in doctrine? or experience only?  I think I am going to say that God's works are not one dimensional. 

in what way does the spirit testify about it, to those who are saved, that he does not do, to those that are unsaved?

The same way the Spirit testified about your sonship I think.  And to those who are unsaved don't, won't understand it, therefore won't accept it.

[GratefulApe]

What does the Bible say a "protestant" is? I doubt you'll find that title.

grateful, only a protestant would consider that significant.

Wrong, only someone who looks for titles other than Christian would put emphasis on a title that doesn't exist in the Word of God.

[kevin]

john, in the past you have not described this as an event, but rather have quoted scripture that asserts it as doctrine. how would a christian experience this moment or process, as it happens? smell, taste, sound, touch, hearing, revelation?

Do God's works have to be in doctrine? or experience only?  I think I am going to say that God's works are not one dimensional. 

in what way does the spirit testify about it, to those who are saved, that he does not do, to those that are unsaved?

The same way the Spirit testified about your sonship I think.  And to those who are unsaved don't, won't understand it, therefore won't accept it.

john, the questions were quite specific, but your answers are so elliptical that they can mean virtually anything, or nothing.

may i try once more?

john: 'I think I am going to say that God's works are not one dimensional.'

would you spell it out, please? identify some of these dimensions by name, and explain how they inform you that you "have the holy spirit."

john: "The same way the Spirit testified about your sonship I think."

would you please state what that way is, rather than referring to it indirectly and by analogy? in what way does "the spirit constantly testify that you have the holy spirit?"

[davdi]

Neither does the bible say Catholic or Orthodox.

I guess we should all be Baptist, but in the Greek the reference is to John, the one who Baptises.  I guess we could all be Pharisees, Saduccees or Scribes, but that would be meaningless in the modern world. 

[GratefulApe]

Neither does the bible say Catholic or Orthodox.

I guess we should all be Baptist, but in the Greek the reference is to John, the one who Baptises.  I guess we could all be Pharisees, Saduccees or Scribes, but that would be meaningless in the modern world.

Or we could read the Bible and find out what a Christian is. Who cares about made up denominational group titles? not me.

[kevin]

really? you've now posted on it twice.

[GratefulApe]

really? you've now posted on it twice.

Yep only to show how empty the title protestant is over and against what the Word of God has to say about it.