i'm a pacifist. my son wants to join the marines.

[kevin]

my son has been raised a quaker, strictly pacifist. currently he's agnostic with respect to theism.

he's always had an interest in weaponry, and recently had an interview with a marine recruiter. the recruiter wants to have another interview with me present, as my son is a minor.

strange days indeed.

[Jezzebelle]

You and shawna seem like very "free range" parents.  How will he do with the rigid structure of the marines?

[Mr. Blackwell]

My decision to join the military shocked my friends and family for two reasons. I had a reputation for being gentle, non violent, laid back to the point of seeming undisciplined and taken to flights of fancy. Also, I was 30 when I made my decision.


I discovered that I actually flourished within the rigid structure of the military environment. I liked haveing clear cut rules, instructions and expectations. For me, it was too easy.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. When you go to the next interview let your son express himself but in the meantime it would be a good idea to find out what type of job he would like to do in the Marines. There are plenty of military occupations that do not require going door to door to look for terrorists.  A friend of mine was an aircraft mechanic. There will be no guarantees that he would not be deployed and assigned different duties but it is possible to work in a support capacity which does not involve direct conflict.


http://www.marines.com/being-a-marine/roles-in-the-corps


Someone has to provide maintenance and repairs to all the different weapons systems. So, what does your son want to be?

[Meat]

I would be proud as heck of him. 

[kevin]

You and shawna seem like very "free range" parents.  How will he do with the rigid structure of the marines?

my son is highly self-directed and self-motivated, as i suspect he inherits from us. outward structure has no control over your inner self, and is irrelevant to it. i'm sure he would do fine, and probably excell.

what he would do fine at is what concerns me.

[kevin]

Someone has to provide maintenance and repairs to all the different weapons systems. So, what does your son want to be?

my son would most likely choose to be a sniper, davdi, if he qualified.

[kevin]

I would be proud as heck of him. 

i'm sure you would be, meat. i live in a different world, though.

[FGOH]

I think that as a parent you have a duty to impart your world view, but not a right to impose it.

[Meat]

I would be proud as heck of him. 

i'm sure you would be, meat. i live in a different world, though.

How so?

[kevin]

I think that as a parent you have a duty to impart your world view, but not a right to impose it.

i agree. it is important that the Light be allowed to do its work without my interference. i can guide, and i can lead, but i cannot compel, and i would not have it so.

[kevin]

i'm sure you would be, meat. i live in a different world, though.

How so?

meat, in my world, god provides the guidance. bad things happen all the time, and innocent people die all the time, as is customary in a world of people who reject that guidance.

among those who accept that guidance, and who believe following those leadings is important, lethal force is not the way to solve a conflict. warfare has had thousands of years to demonstrate its success at ensuring peace, and we're all still waiting.

my beliefs hold that other means are more inline with the commands of god, and those are the guidelines that i follow.

that is the world i live in. it's the same one you live in, but you don't see it as i do.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Someone has to provide maintenance and repairs to all the different weapons systems. So, what does your son want to be?

my son would most likely choose to be a sniper, davdi, if he qualified.

The sniper is one of the most glamorized jobs of the military. Many boys want to be the pitcher or the quarter back. The star of the team. I would want to get to the root of his desire to shoot people.

[kevin]

video games. impersonal targets.

i've tried to explain to him the difference between shooting a mannequin on a video screen, and watching a real human being coughing his life out with his brains lying in the gutter three feet away.

but i have less success than i might.

[Assyriankey]

Kevin, if your reasons for pacifism are religious and your son doesn't share your beliefs then try a different angle.

You need some common ground.

[Gnu Ordure]

Kevin, it look likes you'll have to accept your son's decision. I presume that you and Shawna have raised your kids to think for themselves (whilst also telling them what you think and believe).

So at the end of their childhood, you have to let them make their own decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

[edit to add: sorry, you probably know that already. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of your thread, as Assy may also be).

So, what does your son want to be?

my son would most likely choose to be a sniper, davdi, if he qualified.

Not sure about this, but I suspect that the military would think twice about recruiting people whose primary motivation is to shoot and kill someone.

'Serve my country', or 'defend my country', or 'have a steady job', those are reasonable; 'I want to shoot people in the head' - er, what the f**k?

Soldiers have to be willing to kill, of course. But that's different to wanting to kill. 

[kevin]

Kevin, if your reasons for pacifism are religious and your son doesn't share your beliefs then try a different angle.

You need some common ground.

????

i'm not trying to change his mind.

if his conscience tells him that this is the appropriate path for him to follow, then it's the appropriate path for him to follow. my input is focused on trying to help him interpret the Light that he has been given in the clearest possible way.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Kevin, it look likes you'll have to accept your son's decision. I presume that you and Shawna have raised your kids to think for themselves (whilst also telling them what you think and believe).

So at the end of their childhood, you have to let them make their own decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

[edit to add: sorry, you probably know that already. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of your thread, as Assy may also be).

So, what does your son want to be?

my son would most likely choose to be a sniper, davdi, if he qualified.

Not sure about this, but I suspect that the military would think twice about recruiting people whose primary motivation is to shoot and kill someone.

'Serve my country', or 'defend my country', or 'have a steady job', those are reasonable; 'I want to shoot people in the head' - er, what the f**k?

Soldiers have to be willing to kill, of course. But that's different to wanting to kill.

What gnu says is spot on. Your son WILL be asked by many people in the military industrial complex WHY he wants to join. Even after he has joined he will be asked WHY he joined by many more people in the military industrial complex and, "I want to kill people" is not an appropriate answer.

1. No one will believe that is his reason why.
2. If he is able to convince them that the desire to kill really IS his reason....he's liable to be discharged or not accepted

I would also like to add that you might consider having the conversation with your son that being a sniper does not translate well in the civilian world. So, unless he wants to make a career out of the military and retire from the military....being a sniper is not the most logical choice. It's not even a great military career.

So, if he is just playing out some sort of fantasy, he needs to be warned about the reality before he makes the commitment.

Also, I may not be 100% accurate about this because I have never been a Marine but in the Army...one can not simply choose to be a sniper. Sniper candidates are chosen, then tested.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Okay, here we go. For the Marines


http://www.usmcscoutsniper.org/hogsden/becoming.htm

Criteria:   60 days prior to a class convening, the G-3 at each division will receive a message from HQMC stating the number of funded quotas given to each division, the gear list, report date, and criteria for attending.  THE FOLLOWING PREREQUISITES MUST BE MET BY THE REPORTING MARINE OR HE WILL BE RETURNED TO HIS UNIT:

1.   Lance Corporal through Captain.
2.   Infantry MOS or MOS 0203.
3.   Vision correctable to 20/20 in both eyes.  Color blindness is discouraged.
4.   Serving in or designated for assignment to a Scout Sniper billet.
5.   Minimum of 12 months remaining on current contract upon completion of course
(Does not apply to reservist)
6.   Must score a First Class PFT on course convene date.
7.   Current rifle Expert.   Must have qualified in the last fiscal year. 
(Reservist can have a score three years old, but must be current Expert)
8.   No courts martials or NJP within the last six months.
9.   Minimum GT of 100.
10.   No history of mental illness.
11.   Must be a volunteer.
12.   It is HIGHLY recommended, but not required, for the student to have completed the following MCI courses: Land Navigation, Patrolling, Calling and Adjusting Supporting Arms, and Reconnaissance Marine.  It is also recommended but not required that the student have conducted basic Scout Sniper field skills: stalks, concealment, field sketches, range cards, range estimations, and firing of the M-40A1 prior to attending the course.   Students should also posses a high degree of maturity, equanimity, and common sense.
13.   Bottom line: the best, most experienced infantry you can send.

Marine Corps PFT:  For a perfect score: 3 mile run in 18 minutes, 20 deadhang pull-ups(No Swinging), 100 sit-up/crunchs under two minutes.
Swim Qual:   500 meter swim using side or breast stroke, 50 meter swim holding a weight out of water, tread water for 30 seconds holding a weight out of water, no signs of panic.
   
Two of the better ways of becoming a Scout/Sniper are through a Recon unit or an Infantry Battalion. First join the Marine Corps with an Infantry MOS. While in Boot Camp you will need to shoot Expert on the rifle range, become at least a second class swimmer and score a high first class PFT. Upon completion of Infantry training you will be given the opportunity to volunteer for Recon or Force Recon. If you successfully complete their indoc you will be sent to a Recon unit where you will first qualify as a Recon Marine then given the opportunity to volunteer for Scout/Sniper School. BN Recon and Force Recon have school seats assigned to them for every S/S School.
The other way is to be sent to an Infantry Battalion and then volunteer for the Scout/Sniper Platoon. The S/S Plt runs indocs annually and pulls in personnel from the BN.

Each Sniper unit runs its own version of the indoc but they are all extremely difficult. Once in the unit you will go through all the training to become a sniper before ever going to S/S School. Once at the school you will be expected to have all the basic knowledge of a Scout/Sniper and the advanced knowledge of an infantry Marine. You will show up with everything that you will need to make it through the school including your ghillie suit.

     
There are no second chances at the school and drops are a daily occurrence.
Marine Snipers are generally regarded as the best snipers in the world.
There is a reason for that!




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In regards to numbmer 10. above.......expressing a desire to kill people as your main motivation to join the military IS frowned upon and highly suspect.

[Jay]

My dad tried to talk me out of joining.

Told me I would not like it, that I was not the military type.  That the structure would not suit me.

I flat out ignored him and told him he was wrong and I knew better. 

lol

He was certainly right, but it took me making my own decision and my own 'mistakes' in life to realize it. 

I dont have any advice for ya beyond that I guess.  Oh, and me being in the military was hard on my parents.  I didnt realize it at the time, but as parents sometimes do...they constantly worried about me, especially when I was overseas.  So be prepared for the fact that his time in the military maybe hard on you and Shawna as well, and that is on top of the fact of your differing world views.

Overall though, it was what I needed at that time in my life.  /shrug

[Jay]

Oh.  and FYI.  'wanting to be a sniper' does not exactly equal to 'wanting to kill people'

Many people who join the military 'want to be snipers'.  It is a desirable field as achieving it is a difficult goal, and you will then be one of the best of the best. 

What would be a more desirable candidate for entrance into the military.  A candidate who said "I want to be a sniper"  or the candidate who says "I want to be joe blow infantryman"  or "I want to wash dishes for 4 years".

Yeah.  The marines wants people who 'want to be snipers'.  Becoming one though is a whole different ball game.

[Mr. Blackwell]

I wanted the opportunity to serve my community. To give whatever I could in service to my country. If that meant that the best I could do was washing dishes then so be it. Every job is important.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Oh.  and FYI.  'wanting to be a sniper' does not exactly equal to 'wanting to kill people'

Not exactly? Well, okay. Not sure what else a sniper is supposed to do but whatever.

[Jay]

Oh.  and FYI.  'wanting to be a sniper' does not exactly equal to 'wanting to kill people'

Not exactly? Well, okay. Not sure what else a sniper is supposed to do but whatever.

And so there should be no snipers?  Or no one that wants to be one?

Snipers are trained to operate behind enemy lines with stealth, cunning and deception.

They are trained in the operation of long range firearms.

They are trained to 'kill' but so is everyone in the army or the marines.

if 'wanting to be a sniper' = 'wanting to kill'  then it can essentially be said that anyone that 'wants to be in the military' = 'wants to kill'  which I am sure some here would agree with that statement, but I would not.

I wanted the opportunity to serve my community. To give whatever I could in service to my country. If that meant that the best I could do was washing dishes then so be it. Every job is important.

While every job is important.  Do you think the military prefers those who want to be the best, and strive and are eager to be the best....or those who just want any old job, and dont care what they do?

Sure.  The military will take them all...as long as they can pass the entry requirements and are fit for duty...but my question was who is the more desirable candidate???  Got an answer for that?  I would say the one that wants to be a sniper.  And I dare someone to prove how that would be the incorrect answer?

[Mr. Blackwell]

And so there should be no snipers?  Or no one that wants to be one?

Didn't say that. Didn't mean to imply it. For Kevin's son the question should be "Why do you want to be a sniper" if the answer is sound then he should know what is expected of him to become one and what may be expected of him once he succeeds....if he succeeds. 

if 'wanting to be a sniper' = 'wanting to kill'  then it can essentially be said that anyone that 'wants to be in the military' = 'wants to kill'  which I am sure some here would agree with that statement, but I would not.

All soldiers are trained and mentally prepared to kill. There are 100's of jobs which do not require killing someone. Most of those jobs transfer to the civilian world. Killing does not. Is a sniper trained to type up a force strength report? Maintain a supply room and order equipment using a SAMS? Repair a power generator or set up satellite communications?

Most people join the military to serve their community and acquire job skills and training they can use in order to do that. I am not trying to poo poo all over the infantry or snipers. Those skills are necessary for the military. They are the creme de la creme when it comes to killing people because that is what they are trained to do....exclusively. 

Sure.  The military will take them all...as long as they can pass the entry requirements and are fit for duty...but my question was who is the more desirable candidate???  Got an answer for that?  I would say the one that wants to be a sniper.  And I dare someone to prove how that would be the incorrect answer?

What happens to the ego of the person who aspires to be a sniper but isn't able to meet the requirements? You think they will gladly do whatever menial task they are assigned after they have failed? It does no good to glorify one job over another. Why should the person who "desires" to be a sniper be more preferable to the person who "desires" to be a cook?

[kevin]

Kevin, it look likes you'll have to accept your son's decision. I presume that you and Shawna have raised your kids to think for themselves (whilst also telling them what you think and believe).

So at the end of their childhood, you have to let them make their own decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

[edit to add: sorry, you probably know that already. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of your thread, as Assy may also be).

we've already talked about that and i've told him that i'll support whatever decision he makes. he's old enough to be thinking his life through at this point, and i see my job as a parent to remind him of things he might not remember simply because he has fewer life experiences.

[kevin]

Marine Snipers are generally regarded as the best snipers in the world.
There is a reason for that!

lee harvey oswald and charles whitman both did pretty well at it.

by the way, he's been gone for days and just got back today, so i haven't been able to discuss it with him. i am merely surmising that he would be interested in S/S at this point.

if i was his age and planned to join the military, i would be training for MARSOC.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Kevin, it look likes you'll have to accept your son's decision. I presume that you and Shawna have raised your kids to think for themselves (whilst also telling them what you think and believe).

So at the end of their childhood, you have to let them make their own decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

[edit to add: sorry, you probably know that already. I'm a bit confused as to the purpose of your thread, as Assy may also be).

we've already talked about that and i've told him that i'll support whatever decision he makes. he's old enough to be thinking his life through at this point, and i see my job as a parent to remind him of things he might not remember simply because he has fewer life experiences.

Well, your support or rejection is paramount regardless his age. So I think you are making the right choice is supporting him. For practical purposes, if he is resolute in making a commitment to the Marines, you should at least try to steer him towards the officer side[nb]MOS 0203[/nb] rather than enlisted as an Infantryman.

[kevin]

why?

back when robert mcfarlane was trying to kill himself and old ollie north was busy spilling his guts to avoid prosecution, i recall reading that the marine corp was distinguished by two things from the other branches: the superb caliber of its enlisted men, and the dismal stupidity of its officer corp.

no data beyond those two, just something i recall.

[Mr. Blackwell]

why?

Money. Respect.


I remember being 34 years old and treated like a kid because of my rank. It didn't occur to the enlisted e-7 that I was older than him or that I had only been in for 4 years....the only thing he saw was that I was an e-4.


So, I couldn't be trusted to be left alone.


Meanwhile, no even saw the 0-1 for two weeks.

[kevin]

the enlisted men start at $1200 and top out at $2000 per month