[ALERT!! Re-vote!! Check it out!!] Have your say on the Karma System: Poll 1.

[JadedPulse]

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

It depends on the nature of the comment. If someone points out that you contradicted yourself, and cites the contradictory comments as evidence, you don't need to know their identity. The point stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of who is making it.

Whereas if someone compares you to an anus, yeah, you need to know who said that, so that you can cross them off your Xmas card list.

Also very good points!

[Ghost]

The argument about people being afraid to comment or give a negative/positive karma action just seems so ridiculous to me. I mean if we all want to behave like children then fine I see the point of hiding it.

I don't always like the confrontation that comes from someone knowing that you smited them. I shy away from as much confrontation as I possibly can. It makes me uncomfortable.

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

Because you still have the anonymity, but you get to spell out exactly what it is you liked or hated about the post.   

Okay, I could potentially go for something like that. Although if we move to get comments--we may as well just open it up completely.

I guess I view it as being given the courtesy to face your accuser 

[Gnu Ordure]

Mooby:

FYI, here are the current settings:

Gosh. That is sooo complicated. We certainly can't vote on all those options. We'll have to narrow it down...



Mooby, I tried to figure out the answer to Tish's question:

When you start your poll for the types of amends we should have, can you please include allowing a comment only, and not identifying the karma giver?

... but I can't work it out ('cos it's sooo complicated) . Is her request possible, or not?

[Maggie the Opinionated]

The problem with having to write a comment is that they are too short to be meaningful. "Yeah boy"! "Well, said"! Are not really helpful. And if there is substantive criticism of what someone says, then it should be said in the thread where it can be discussed properly. I can't tell from what Mooby posted if it is possible to just show who applauded or smited. I would be ok with that. I don't favor commentary.

[Jay]

Personally, I could care less¹ if smites are public.  I almost always claim them anyways, and probably would continue to state it publicly even if the person was notified that I smited them.  But that is just me.

But, I can also understand how others would not want to be as confrontational as that, and could possibly shy away from using the karma system if it is made public.

And that is why I voted to not make any changes, and stand behind my vote.

Note 1-  Yes, I purposefully used the words 'I could care less' just to piss of the English Grammar Nazis  :P

[Jay]

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

It depends on the nature of the comment. If someone points out that you contradicted yourself, and cites the contradictory comments as evidence, you don't need to know their identity. The point stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of who is making it.

Whereas if someone compares you to an anus, yeah, you need to know who said that, so that you can cross them off your Xmas card list.

Also very good points!

Well comparing someone to an anus is probably what any comment system would be used for.

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?  Because you could generate some real flame wars through karma comments.  Trust me, I know.   

[Jay]

The argument about people being afraid to comment or give a negative/positive karma action just seems so ridiculous to me. I mean if we all want to behave like children then fine I see the point of hiding it.

Then I hear people say "well we should all act like adults and not abuse the current system". Yeah well in case nobody has realized that is never going to happen on here  .

I personally do not think it is widely abused. 

[JadedPulse]

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?  Because you could generate some real flame wars through karma comments.  Trust me, I know.   

That's also a good point. There would prolly have to be a whole new set of rules written up for any new karma changes put out there.

[Jezzebelle]

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

It depends on the nature of the comment. If someone points out that you contradicted yourself, and cites the contradictory comments as evidence, you don't need to know their identity. The point stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of who is making it.

Whereas if someone compares you to an anus, yeah, you need to know who said that, so that you can cross them off your Xmas card list.

Also very good points!

Well comparing someone to an anus is probably what any comment system would be used for.

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?  Because you could generate some real flame wars through karma comments.  Trust me, I know.   

i can't imagine it would be different that profile comments

[Gnu Ordure]

The problem with having to write a comment is that they are too short to be meaningful.

Maggie, at WWGHA you get 140 characters to make your comment. I guess it's the same here.

I also guess that number is adjustable, but 140 is usually sufficient to make one's point.


If you want to say more, you can always make a post in the thread...

[Ghost]

Mooby:

FYI, here are the current settings:

Gosh. That is sooo complicated. We certainly can't vote on all those options. We'll have to narrow it down...



Mooby, I tried to figure out the answer to Tish's question:

When you start your poll for the types of amends we should have, can you please include allowing a comment only, and not identifying the karma giver?

... but I can't work it out ('cos it's sooo complicated) . Is her request possible, or not?

I guess I missed the point of the poll? We can already give a comment in reference to any comment on the thread so how would that change anything? I wouldn't be opposed to being able to give a comment when you give karma but wouldn't care if it wasn't an option because we already have that option by just commenting in the thread.

[Jay]

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

It depends on the nature of the comment. If someone points out that you contradicted yourself, and cites the contradictory comments as evidence, you don't need to know their identity. The point stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of who is making it.

Whereas if someone compares you to an anus, yeah, you need to know who said that, so that you can cross them off your Xmas card list.

Also very good points!

Well comparing someone to an anus is probably what any comment system would be used for.

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?  Because you could generate some real flame wars through karma comments.  Trust me, I know.   

i can't imagine it would be different that profile comments

But are not profile comments viewable by all?  Would the mods be forced to look at some separate log if someone complained about what someone said in a Karma comments?  IDK what kind of problems this would cause to the mods.

And additionally on profile comments, who actually uses them anyways?  I do not think I have ever made a profile comment.  Oh wait, I did once, and got yelled at for it.   

[Ghost]

 I also have seen on several occasions where someone who is answering to the comment above had to state "I didn't just give you that -1 by the way". And I am sure people have been reluctant to comment after someone just got smited. A transparent system would eliminate this also.

[Gnu Ordure]

Jay:

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?

The rules of etiquette which apply to ordinary posts would also apply to Karma feedback. No insults, no abuse.

That's the point; negative feedback should be constructive, not abusive.

[Jezzebelle]

What's the point of getting a comment if you don't know who is giving it to you?

It depends on the nature of the comment. If someone points out that you contradicted yourself, and cites the contradictory comments as evidence, you don't need to know their identity. The point stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of who is making it.

Whereas if someone compares you to an anus, yeah, you need to know who said that, so that you can cross them off your Xmas card list.

Also very good points!

Well comparing someone to an anus is probably what any comment system would be used for.

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?  Because you could generate some real flame wars through karma comments.  Trust me, I know.   

i can't imagine it would be different that profile comments

But are not profile comments viewable by all?  Would the mods be forced to look at some separate log if someone complained about what someone said in a Karma comments?  IDK what kind of problems this would cause to the mods.

And additionally on profile comments, who actually uses them anyways?  I do not think I have ever made a profile comment.  Oh wait, I did once, and got yelled at for it.   

i think it's one giant log... everyone doesn't have their own log.

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

[Jay]

I also have seen on several occasions where someone who is answering to the comment above had to state "I didn't just give you that -1 by the way". And I am sure people have been reluctant to comment after someone just got smited. A transparent system would eliminate this also.

Well, now that is a good point, because I have certainly felt the need to state that in the past.

IDK.  As I said....me personally, it doesnt bother me if smites are no longer anonymous.  And since my vote was mostly for my concern for others.......I have decided to remove my vote, and leave it up to others.  I wont be voting either way right now.

But, I still do think that if you want to make comments on karma allowed, that the mods really need to weigh in on this, as they may have to get in the middle of a karma comment flame war.

[Tish]

Mooby, I tried to figure out the answer to Tish's question:

When you start your poll for the types of amends we should have, can you please include allowing a comment only, and not identifying the karma giver?

... but I can't work it out ('cos it's sooo complicated) . Is her request possible, or not?

LOL!  He knows I've wanted that all along, I keep nagging him to do it.  It means that giving karma would require two clicks, rather than just one.  Plus, it's not a matter of just changing a setting, it's a sort of a hack.  ish   

Jay:

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?

The rules of etiquette would also apply to Karma feedback. No insults, no abuse.

That's the point; negative feedback should be constructive, not abusive.

We could make a really strict karma rule about no insults, and remove privileges, like FOR EVER!!   

[Jay]

Jay:

Which brings up another question....would mods have to monitor karma comments?

The rules of etiquette would also apply to Karma feedback. No insults, no abuse.

That's the point; negative feedback should be constructive, not abusive.

Well, that is not in the rules.  The mods would need to amend the rules to state such.  And they would need to be able to review karma comments to determine if they are infractionable.

But I still do not like that.  Then people could get caught up in thinking that they do not want to report a karma comment, because then the other person will know who sent the notification to the mods, and that could turn ugly with calls of 'tattle tale' and such.

If Karma is opened up and not anonymous, I do not think I can agree with making comments. 

[Gnu Ordure]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given to and received from anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

[JadedPulse]

LOL!  He knows I've wanted that all along, I keep nagging him to do it.  It means that giving karma would require two clicks, rather than just one.  Plus, it's not a matter of just changing a setting, it's a sort of a hack.  ish   

Why two clicks?

*envisions an "Are you SURE you want to complete this action?" pop up*

[Jay]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given and received to anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Ugh.  No.  Do not like at all.  That will totally transform karma, and will seriously impact its use.  No no no on that.

[catwixen]

But, I still do think that if you want to make comments on karma allowed, that the mods really need to weigh in on this, as they may have to get in the middle of a karma comment flame war.

True. I think there would be karma comment wars...and they would disrupt threads too. This would need to be if the mods have the energy for the extra work...and maybe a separate thread for karma comments responses...LOL We could have "The Ring" ding ding for people to go off and argue the disputed karma reasons. 

[Gnu Ordure]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given and received to anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Ugh.  No.  Do not like at all.  That will totally transform karma, and will seriously impact its use.  No no no on that.

I don't understand, Jay. You sound frightened.

What is the problem with openness?

After all, we're all operating here anonymously anyway. (Gnu isn't my real name, y'know).

So why not be open about what one likes and what one doesn't like?

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Mooby, I tried to figure out the answer to Tish's question:

When you start your poll for the types of amends we should have, can you please include allowing a comment only, and not identifying the karma giver?

... but I can't work it out ('cos it's sooo complicated) . Is her request possible, or not?

Yes, if you had notifications enabled it would send you the reason anonymously via PM.  Of course, this raises 3 issues:

- You don't see the comments if you have karma notifications off (like I do),
- Everyone who gives karma has to click through the comment page for the sake of those who like the comments (making karma more irksome to give)
- People will whine to the staff whenever they get a comment they don't like, demanding it be stricken from their records or the person gets identified or some such.

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

Logs come in three varieties:
- The giant log
- Logs for individual members
- Logs for individual posts

What you'd be able to see would depend on the settings.

Why two clicks?

These are two separate pages.

[close]

[JadedPulse]

Got it!

Thanks, Moobs!

[Jay]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given and received to anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Ugh.  No.  Do not like at all.  That will totally transform karma, and will seriously impact its use.  No no no on that.

I don't understand, Jay. You sound frightened.

What is the problem with openness?

After all, we're all operating here anonymously anyway. (Gnu isn't my real name, y'know).

So why not be open about what one likes and what one doesn't like?

We have to think about ALL of the ramifications on the karma system with a change.  Not just the positive changes.  And that change will have a negative impact.  I see that as severely lowering how often it is used.  And that is not a change I want to see, and therefore why I do not see myself ever getting behind that.

[Ghost]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given to and received from anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Totally agree with this! But the ability to leave a comment could be more trouble than it is worth? If they want to leave a comment maybe it should be optional? I would be happy just to have my name on everything I do in here regarding karma.

[Gnu Ordure]

Anyway, these questions of how the system might be changed are academic.

We need to see how this poll pans out first.

Right now it's 8 to amend it , 3 to leave it alone, 1 to scrap it.

Let's see how it goes...

I have to go to bed, so I'll leave you to it.

More kittens....

[Jezzebelle]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given to and received from anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Totally agree with this! But the ability to leave a comment could be more trouble than it is worth? If they want to leave a comment maybe it should be optional? I would be happy just to have my name on everything I do in here regarding karma.

well you could always leave a "." in the space if makes you leave anything at all

i would like it totally open :)

[Ghost]

Jezze:

so we maybe only to see our own, but admin/mods would be able to clearly see them all

At WWGHA, everyone can see all the Karma points, and the reasons given, that everyone has given and received to anyone else.

No hiding, everything upfront and accountable. You stand by your words.

Ugh.  No.  Do not like at all.  That will totally transform karma, and will seriously impact its use.  No no no on that.

I don't understand, Jay. You sound frightened.

What is the problem with openness?

After all, we're all operating here anonymously anyway. (Gnu isn't my real name, y'know).

So why not be open about what one likes and what one doesn't like?

We have to think about ALL of the ramifications on the karma system with a change.  Not just the positive changes.  And that change will have a negative impact.  I see that as severely lowering how often it is used.  And that is not a change I want to see, and therefore why I do not see myself ever getting behind that.

The less it is used just adds value to it IMO. Karma is thrown around on here like it means nothing, which it doesn't IMO without a name on it.