Shari from SMART Recovery Here...

[Assyriankey]

AK, go eat a whole box of EXlax, and try to control your urges.  Then come back here and tell me if what I say in untrue.

David, it is simply not true that alcoholics cannot, in and of themselves, totally reform from drinking.  Moreover, your idea, that alcoholics lack the power to do this, is a damaging one and counter-productive.

What you claim is simply not true and this has been pointed out to you many times in the past.  Previously, you have answered by saying that an alcoholic who achieves abstinence was never a real alcoholic in the first place.

Please, make this claim to Shari, that the people who her program helps achieve abstinence, were never real alcoholics.

[David M]

Weird. You seem to be doing just fine David. Is there a drug to cure this disease?

"I've so depressed. I was just diagnosed with (insert disease here)."
"have you tried the 12 steps?"

I'm not sure I understand your question, Pastaman.  Are you talking about the disease of alcoholism, or depression?  There are drugs that can sometimes treat the symptoms of depression, but I'm not aware of a medical cure.

As for the effectiveness of the 12 Steps, I believe with all my heart that most of society's ill could be eliminated if everyone chose to apply 12 Step principles to their lives and every organization used the 12 Traditions to guide their practices.

[rickymooston]

Shari,
1) In your experience, are there many members who've gone through SMART successfully who have discovered they can't "drink like normal people" and have found for them "abstinence seems to be necessary"?  That is, they wanted to encorporate moderate drinking into their lives but it always backfired?  What tools do you recommend for somebody to determine whether or not they can drink moderately? Do you at least introduce the possibility that that approach doesn't work for some people? That is, is abstinece really a "choice" or does it depend on the person?

2) What about the idea of "occasional drinking with damage control"? Cat has recently shared she tried something like this for a while and it worked for her until she changed soclial workers.

3) How does your program encourage people to "plug into" the medical community. How can members benefit from your program and also look into other aids?  How do you help them eveluate the other aids available to them?

4) I'm unsure if you answered this yet but how did you enter the game? Are you coming into this as a health professional or as a former sufferer? Why did you choose SMART rather than some other program such as rational recovery. What appealed to you the most about SMART? (We've discussed AA already enough but given that you've mentioned 5 other methods ...)

5) What about the alcohol treatment pill? One of the members of this forum shared a very sad story of somebody who died (suicide I believe) using that as his exclusive method. However, have you found that in the context of SMART, some people have used that as a partial solution?

[David M]

AK, go eat a whole box of EXlax, and try to control your urges.  Then come back here and tell me if what I say in untrue.

David, it is simply not true that alcoholics cannot, in and of themselves, totally reform from drinking.  Moreover, your idea, that alcoholics lack the power to do this, is a damaging one and counter-productive.

What you claim is is simply not true and this has been pointed out to you many times in the past.  Previously, you have answered by saying that alcoholic who achieves abstinence was never a real alcoholic in the first place.

Please, make this claim to Shari, that the people who her program helps achieve abstinence, were never real alcoholics.
 

AK, it is simply not true that those of us who know about alcoholism, including the vast majority of those in the medical profession who specialize in the treatment of alcoholism, agree with you.  Who has pointed out to me that this is not true?  A few former drinkers on IGI who hate the God idea?  That's hardly convincing evidence.

As for Smart Recovery, I have yet to meet one person in the recovering community in the Cleveland area, of which Mentor, the headquarters of Smart Recovery is a part, who has even heard of Smart Recovery, which has one weekly meeting at its headquarters in Mentor.  Meanwhile, there are over 1000 weekly meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous in our area attended by thousands of recovering alcoholics who you can hear testify every single day that they were simply unable to stop drinking on their own until either they reached out to God and he led them to AA or they went to AA and were led to God.

I have no desire or reason to doubt the effectiveness of Smart Recovery for those who find it helpful.  I don't understand why anyone would, on the one hand, resist the idea of labeling a drinking problem a disease or calling it alcoholism, and then, on the other hand, insist that I call everyone who has a drinking problem an alcoholic.  I don't have to ask Shari that question because she has already said that they don't use the term, "Alcoholic."  Perhaps the reason is because they want to avoid potential legal ramifications of suggesting that alcoholics can recover using their program? 

Don't know.  None of my business.  I'm just here to share my experience, strength and hope, and talk about what works for me and many thousands of other sober people who were once just as hopelessly and helplessly dependent on alcohol as I was.  If Smart Recovery, or any other cognitive method works for anyone else, that's great.  If it doesn't, and they survive,  AA will be there for them when they are ready to admit that they are powerless over alcohol and that their lives have become unmanageable.

[Shari]

Shari, how did you come to be involved in SMART Recovery?

(my apologies if you've already explained your background, link pls)

I began working part-time for SMART Recovery nearly 18 years ago, initially as an office manager.  I think it was about 5 years that I agreed to the Executive Director role and began working full time for SMART Recovery.

I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm an expert in recovery.  I have no background nor training in recovery or psychology, though I have 17+ years of experience of interacting with individuals who are using the SMART Recovery program.  I also try not to represent other groups, because I'm most definitely not expert in their programs, simply recognize that each of the programs can work for individuals.  I should say I try not to speak on behalf of other groups to represent their specific programs.  I do like to try to represent that a variety of programs exist.  :)

I do find my job incredibly rewarding and fulfilling!

[rickymooston]

AK, David   I think Mooby has mentioned that, we don't want this thread to be about AA. Therefore, can you try to avoid making it about AA?

AK, Your statement about "powerlessness being counter productive" really involves understanding what AA means by an individual being "powerless". This resulted in a defensive wall of text in response from David. Neither post really discusses SMART.

If you want to discuss "higher powers", please do so in an AA thread. The forum has about 25 of them.

[Former Believer]

Personally, I don't think that David M discussing higher powers in this thread is inappropriate.  SMART Recovery, while it doesn't discourage people from using faith based beliefs as part of their recovery, doesn't believe that higher powers are needed to stop drinking.  This is a fundamental aspect of SMART idealogy, one which differs from 12 step programs and one, which I believe, is worthy of evaluation and discussion.

[rickymooston]

I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm an expert in recovery.  I have no background nor training in recovery or psychology, though I have 17+ years of experience of interacting with individuals who are using the SMART Recovery program.

Based on that 17 years of experience then, have you met alcoholics who found that total abstinence was necessary for their personal recovery?

For the record, my question was only to understand where you come from. Your answers here have been very enlightening. You've explained your program rather well and you've gotten very encouraging feedback in this thread for several people who have either dealt with addiction or who are currently dealing.

[Shari]

Shari,
1) In your experience, are there many members who've gone through SMART successfully who have discovered they can't "drink like normal people" and have found for them "abstinence seems to be necessary"?  That is, they wanted to encorporate moderate drinking into their lives but it always backfired?  What tools do you recommend for somebody to determine whether or not they can drink moderately? Do you at least introduce the possibility that that approach doesn't work for some people? That is, is abstinece really a "choice" or does it depend on the person?

I'M NOT YELLING, BUT I'LL TYPE IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE HOW TO BREAK UP A QUOTE. :)  OH, YES, THERE ARE MANY MEMBERS OF SMART RECOVERY WHO HAVE DISCOVERED THAT THEY CAN'T DRINK LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE.  AND MANY STARTED OUT WITH THE HOPE OF DRINKING MODERATELY, BUT THEN DISCOVER IT'S SIMPLY NOT PART OF THE EQUATION FOR THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL.  LET ME POINT OUT THAT SMART RECOVERY IS AN ABSTINENCE-BASED PROGRAM.  BUT I IMAGINE WHEN PEOPLE FIRST COME TO ANY PROGRAM, IT MAY BE THEIR HOPE OR DESIRE TO BE ABLE TO "DRINK LIKE NORMAL PEOPLE".  WE DON'T ADVISE "OF COURSE YOU CAN'T!"  WE LET PEOPLE DISCOVER FOR THEMSELVES WHAT THEIR PATH NEEDS TO BE.  USUALLY ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK, A NEWCOMER ON OUR MESSAGE BOARDS WILL SHARE THE DESIRE TO DRINK IN MODERATION, AND THEN MANY OF OUR PARTICIPANTS WILL SHARE THAT WAS THEIR DESIRE, AS WELL, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK FOR THEM.  IF SOMEONE MAKES A DETERMINATION THAT MODERATION IS THE WAY THEY CHOOSE TO MOVE FORWARD, WE RECOMMEND MODERATION MANAGEMENT TO THEM. AS FAR AS TOOLS USED TO HELP DETERMINE THAT, I THINK THAT THE CHANGE PLAN WORKSHEET AND A COST/BENEFIT ANALYSIS WOULD BOTH BE HELPFUL TO THE INDIVIDUAL TO DECIDE WHAT'S MOST LIKELY TO WORK FOR THEM.

2) What about the idea of "occasional drinking with damage control"? Cat has recently shared she tried something like this for a while and it worked for her until she changed soclial workers.

I BELIEVE IT CAN WORK FOR SOME, AND THAT'S WHY MODERATION MANAGEMENT EXISTS.  IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS OF HOW STRONGLY THEY DESIRE TO MODERATE.

3) How does your program encourage people to "plug into" the medical community. How can members benefit from your program and also look into other aids?  How do you help them eveluate the other aids available to them?

I THINK I MENTIONED BEFORE THAT IF IT'S APPARENT THAT SOMEONE WOULD BE AT RISK MEDICALLY, WE STRONGLY URGE THEM TO SEEK PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ADVICE BEFORE SIMPLY STOPPING.  WE ALSO ARE IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE USING PROFESSIONAL COUNSELING/HELP AND TREATMENT PROGRAM SERVICES (INPATIENT AND OUTPATIENT) IN COMBINATION WITH SMART RECOVERY IF THEY FIND THAT HELPFUL TO THEM.  WE DON'T EVALUATE OTHER AIDS, SERVICES, SIMPLY RECOMMEND THAT PARTICIPANTS CHECK INTO ANY/ALL SERVICES THEY FEEL MAY ENHANCE THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCCESS.

4) I'm unsure if you answered this yet but how did you enter the game? Are you coming into this as a health professional or as a former sufferer? Why did you choose SMART rather than some other program such as rational recovery. What appealed to you the most about SMART? (We've discussed AA already enough but given that you've mentioned 5 other methods ...)

I DID ANSWER MOST OF THIS QUESTION A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO.  I DIDN'T ACTUALLY CHOOSE SMART RECOVERY AS OPPOSED TO ANY OTHER GROUP, IT WAS SIMPLY A JOB OPPORTUNITY AT THE TIME. :)

5) What about the alcohol treatment pill? One of the members of this forum shared a very sad story of somebody who died (suicide I believe) using that as his exclusive method. However, have you found that in the context of SMART, some people have used that as a partial solution?

WE ARE IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE USING MEDICATIONS IN COMBINATION WITH THE PROGRAM, IF THEY SO CHOOSE, AND IF THEY FIND IT HELPFUL TO THEM.  HERE'S A LINK TO OUR MEDICATIONS POSITION STATEMENT: http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/library/postion/medications.pdf.  WE ALSO ENCOURAGE THOSE WHO ARE DEALING WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IN ADDITION TO AN ADDICTIVE BEHAVIOR TO SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP AND UTILIZE PRESCRIBED MEDS FOR THEIR MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES. 

[Pastafarian]

Depression's a disease too? 

No David. I meant a disease. Like lupus. Or smallpox.

[rickymooston]

Shari, thanks for your responce. 

Depression's a disease too? 

Pasta, the classification of diseases is off  topic but yes there are several diseases referred to by psychiatrists as depression.

[Shari]

Based on that 17 years of experience then, have you met alcoholics who found that total abstinence was necessary for their personal recovery?

For the record, my question was only to understand where you come from. Your answers here have been very enlightening. You've explained your program rather well and you've gotten very encouraging feedback in this thread for several people who have either dealt with addiction or who are currently dealing.

Quite honestly, all of the people who decide to move forward with the SMART Recovery program have determined that total abstinence is necessary for their personal recovery.  That said, some arrive with that little spark of hope they'll be able to drink or use or gamble or whatever moderately.  (I don't know if the same is true for other programs, as well, but I'm sort of imagining so.)

And thanks for the kind words.  It's hard to describe a program, and I think that if it sounds at all appealing to anyone, actually trying it out and seeing how the tools are used and how others use them would be more helpful than me trying to describe it!

[Shari]

Yes, I realize that this link is "AA" oriented, vs. SMART Recovery, but I found it a very interesting and helpful read:  http://www.williamwhitepapers.com/pr/2010%20Bill%20Wilson%20on%20Multiple%20Pathways%20of%20Recovery.pdf

It's entitled: A Message of Tolerance and Celebration: The Portrayal of Multiple Pathways of Recovery in the Writings of Alcoholics Anonymous Co-Founder Bill Wilson.  Give it a read if interested.

Did I miss any questions? I'm not trying to avoid any, so if you've asked a question I've failed to answer, kindly repeat it!

[Former Believer]

Did I miss any questions? I'm not trying to avoid any, so if you've asked a question I've failed to answer, kindly repeat it!

Yes.  I've asked you three times now, Shari, what the capital of Mongolia is.  I sort of get the feeling you are dodging the question.

[Shari]

Did I miss any questions? I'm not trying to avoid any, so if you've asked a question I've failed to answer, kindly repeat it!

Yes.  I've asked you three times now, Shari, what the capital of Mongolia is.  I sort of get the feeling you are dodging the question.

I just knew I'd miss something along the way!  That would be Ulan Bator, and we hope to have a SMART Recovery meeting there soon!

[Former Believer]

Did I miss any questions? I'm not trying to avoid any, so if you've asked a question I've failed to answer, kindly repeat it!

Yes.  I've asked you three times now, Shari, what the capital of Mongolia is.  I sort of get the feeling you are dodging the question.

I just knew I'd miss something along the way!  That would be Ulan Bator, and we hope to have a SMART Recovery meeting there soon!

Oops!  I goofed up my quote.

Thanks for the answer.  I'm glad you finally "came clean".

[FGOH]

I just knew I'd miss something along the way!  That would be Ulan Bator, and we hope to have a SMART Recovery meeting there soon!

I'm very glad to hear it. They have a big problem out there with over-consumption of fermented yak's milk. 

[David M]

I just knew I'd miss something along the way!  That would be Ulan Bator, and we hope to have a SMART Recovery meeting there soon!

I'm very glad to hear it. They have a big problem out there with over-consumption of fermented yak's milk. 

AK, tell FGOH that simply is not true!

[Assyriankey]

After reading some of Shari's latest PDF link I declare David M to be a "AA - Show off" as identified by AA founder Bill Wilson.

[Pastafarian]

Yup. I've posted that very link in another thread before.

[David M]

Depression's a disease too? 

No David. I meant a disease. Like lupus. Or smallpox.

Oh, I understand the question now.  You're questioning the definition of a disease when it isn't related to some type of physical physical cause which science has clearly indentified, like a virus or a genetic defect.

Perhaps you should look into some medical journals on the subject of the classification of diseases, as I'm not an expert.  All I know is that the American Medical Association has classified alcoholism as a disease since 1959, and the Director of Towns Hospital, the nationally renowned center for the treatment of alcoholics who wrote the Doctor's Opinion that is the preface to the book Alcoholics Anonymous, went out on a limb to declare it a disease for which there was then no known treatment or cure with which they were confident, other than complete abstinence, 20 years before for that, when the book was first published in 1939.

Apparently, not much has changed in the public perception of the issue sense then.  Most people still think drunks are just moral weaklings who neglect their responsibilities and abuse their families because they're selfish pricks.

If you'd rather identify with the fallacious public perception, rather than the medical facts, be my guest.

[David M]

After reading some of Shari's latest PDF link I declare David M to be a "AA - Show off" as identified by AA founder Bill Wilson.

Yes, Bill knew what he was talking about alright, from the hard earned personal experience of a lifetime of trying to help change the public perception of alcoholism and alcoholics.

The only thing I'm showing off on IGI are my first name, my last initial, my dog, a few facts about alcoholism and AA, and my personal experience of recovery from this devastating illness.

If you want to question my motives for doing so, that is your business, but I don't think there's much here to go on.

[Airyaman]

Interesting article, Alcoholism is not a Disease. Too many good points to pull out any particular excerpts.

[rickymooston]

Needless post

[rickymooston]

delete

[FGOH]

Could we please try to keep the focus on issues we can reasonably ask Shari to give her input on? There's plenty of other places for people to have a ding dong with DavidM about the ins and outs of his promotion of AA.

[Pastafarian]

You're right FGOH. Sorry Shari.

Great link though Airy.

[Shari]

Good Monday morning to all!

Lots of passion within this discussion, and that's good. We need passionate people helping to spread the news about programs!

I wanted to quickly share a couple of other tools that are used in SMART Recovery meetings, before heading back to work.

SMART Recovery meetings include a lot of brainstorming. They include a lot of communications between the participants.  In fact, our founding President has said that often the best meetings he's facilitated are those where his top lip is touching his bottom lip most of the time, i.e., he doesn't have to say much, but the participants help one another. When someone has shared an issue they're dealing with -- urges, anxiety, a slip, etc. -- the group is asked to brainstorm what tools or techniques might be helpful to the individual and to share what's been helpful to them.  So, you can expect a lot of cross-talk and brainstorming in a SMART Recovery meeting.

And, we use a tool called Role playing/Rehearsing.  An example.  Let's say your sister is getting married, and you know that alcohol will be freely flowing at the reception.  You can't miss the wedding and reception, but it's definitely causing you some anxiety.  This is where role play/rehearsal can be really helpful.  Group attendees would be asked to play a variety of roles, i.e., your best old drinking buddy slapping you on the shoulder and suggesting you head to the bar for a shot in your sister's honor.  A waiter wandering by with a tray of champagne.  How are you going to react/respond?  If you've rehearsed your responses, you'll have a much better chance of successfully turning down the offers.  You might, in the case of the best buddy, be forthright, and state "I'm not drinking anymore, but you get yourself a drink, and let's catch up on what's new."  Or, if that's not comfy try something along the lines of "I'm on some medications and not drinking, as the two don't work well together".  For the waiter, you may try something like "no thanks, I'm going to get a glass of ginger ale", or a response of that nature.  The point is to not be caught off guard, but to be prepared for what situations might arise, and have a response ready to roll off your tongue, vs. nabbing a glass off the tray or heading to the bar with your buddy. 

Wishing each of you a lovely Monday!

[David M]

"No, thanks, I've had enough," works for me in that situation.  Thing I like best about it is how true it is!

[Assyriankey]

Shari, where does the bulk of SMART Recovery's funding come from?