Shari from SMART Recovery Here...

[none]

maybe I should clarify...
a burglar broke into a house, but I don't know if they do drugs or not.
sorry crackheads....

[Shari]

Alas, that is indeed a choice you make.  I'm not sure if you've had issues with drinking and you're not motivated to change or if you simply don't drink or are a social drinker.  Regardless, I wish you all the best, and at least you know that there are a variety of programs available to you if you choose to seek a recovery program!

[none]

yeah thanks, but I like being drunk.
now I got a question.
what is the difference between self-control and lack of desire?

[Shari]

what is the difference between self-control and lack of desire?

An interesting question.  I don't think one is inclined to use self control if there's a lack of desire to do so.  You note that you enjoy being drunk, and you don't have any desire or goal to change that.  And that's okay ... I'm not here to tell you what you should or shouldn't do!

At some point, it may become apparent to you (or others ... I'm not picking on you) that drinking is actually getting in the way of enjoying life and achieving goals.  Examples might be marital issues, a DUI, job loss, etc. At present, you find the benefits of drinking outweigh the costs of drinking.  So, I wouldn't anticipate you exhibiting self control unless you chose to change, and became desirous of changing.

[Kiahanie]

OTOH, self-control is not always about abstinence. I kinda hate to mention it in a thread about recovery, but there are people who use the drug of their choice in moderation, or to the point where they get what they want and no further. That self-regulating also seems to be self control, and most adults seem to have it.

That's one of the things I lost during my drunk years, but eventually recovered, along with the realization that for me, alcohol will always have a seriously corrosive effect on my self-control. (I quit drinking for over a year following a DUI, but felt I was in control and could drink moderately, until sometime later I realized I was no longer in control. Even then, it took another year and half and another DUI to assert myself and quit. Seriously corrosive.)

[Shari]

Kia, no need to not feel free to remind folks that there are people who use their DOC in moderation.  An excellent reminder.  (Don't forget about Moderation Management for drinking.  They don't address other drugs, but it's a really solid program.) 

And it's interesting, because on the SMART Recovery message boards, there are so many like you, who desired to moderate and gave it a whirl (sometimes a few times) but determined it wasn't going to work for them.  Works for some, but not all.  Again, that's why it's so helpful to have a variety of programs available to meet a variety of needs and beliefs. 

[Former Believer]

yeah thanks, but I like being drunk.

I did too.  I liked it a lot.  But, at some point, the cons outweighed the pros for me.

Do you perceive drinking as being harmful to you in any way?

[Former Believer]

Kia, no need to not feel free to remind folks that there are people who use their DOC in moderation.  An excellent reminder.  (Don't forget about Moderation Management for drinking.  They don't address other drugs, but it's a really solid program.) 

And it's interesting, because on the SMART Recovery message boards, there are so many like you, who desired to moderate and gave it a whirl (sometimes a few times) but determined it wasn't going to work for them.  Works for some, but not all.  Again, that's why it's so helpful to have a variety of programs available to meet a variety of needs and beliefs.

Interesting discussion.  To be honest with you, I'm not sure that I couldn't drink moderately at this point. 

I actually did for awhile when I was in my early 20s.  I cut back, went to bars, and stopped at two drinks.  But, I felt unsatisfied.  2 drinks was like having an appetizer and being extremely hungry.  Or like having foreplay in sex and then not finishing. 

In addition to drinking moderately not being particularly satisfying, I am cognizant of the fact that drinking impairs your ability to think clearly.  Even after a couple of beers, your judgment is somewhat altered.  Not that I couldn't restrain myself, but I don't want to be in a compromised position.  And, I want to set a good example for my 4 year old son, as well.

I have enough reasons not to drink now...moderately or insanely. 

[Kiahanie]

Kia, no need to not feel free to remind folks that there are people who use their DOC in moderation.  An excellent reminder.  (Don't forget about Moderation Management for drinking.  They don't address other drugs, but it's a really solid program.) 

And it's interesting, because on the SMART Recovery message boards, there are so many like you, who desired to moderate and gave it a whirl (sometimes a few times) but determined it wasn't going to work for them.  Works for some, but not all.  Again, that's why it's so helpful to have a variety of programs available to meet a variety of needs and beliefs.

Interesting discussion.  To be honest with you, I'm not sure that I couldn't drink moderately at this point. 

I actually did for awhile when I was in my early 20s.  I cut back, went to bars, and stopped at two drinks.  But, I felt unsatisfied.  2 drinks was like having an appetizer and being extremely hungry.  Or like having foreplay in sex and then not finishing. 

In addition to drinking moderately not being particularly satisfying, I am cognizant of the fact that drinking impairs your ability to think clearly.  Even after a couple of beers, your judgment is somewhat altered.  Not that I couldn't restrain myself, but I don't want to be in a compromised position.  And, I want to set a good example for my 4 year old son, as well.

I have enough reasons not to drink now...moderately or insanely.

Yup to all the above^^^^ except "Not that I couldn't restrain myself" ... I couldn't. All the rest is me, though.

[Pastafarian]

Yup. Me too.

[none]

yeah thanks, but I like being drunk.

I did too.  I liked it a lot.  But, at some point, the cons outweighed the pros for me.

Do you perceive drinking as being harmful to you in any way?

yeah it kills brain cells, ruins my liver, and gives me a buzz.

[Shari]

Okay, so, at the risk of potentially offending None (which is not my intent), let me share with you how a facilitator in a meeting would handle this situation (if it occurred in a meeting vs. on these message boards) based on their training.

None, I understand that you are choosing not to abstain, however, we're here to discuss SMART Recovery, and the tools and techniques that can help people achieve their goals.  So, you're invited to stay for the meeting and observe, and see if you find anything that can be helpful to you. You're also welcome to return, but please understand that we're not here to discuss how much fun drinking/drugging, or other activities were to any of us. We're focused on how to cease those activities.  Again, please feel free to stay and observe, and you're welcome to return to the next meeting, if you'd like.  Simply understand that we're not going to turn the focus of the meeting to anything beyond the standard agenda, and what can help those whose goal it is to abstain.

[none]

nah it's cool, I understand when the party is over.

[QuestionMark]

SMART sounds like a typical treatment plan for any mental illness.

[none]

SMART sounds like a typical treatment plan for any mental illness.

what are you an expert on mental illness now?
true christian and true mentally ill, what a combo.
lets hear the long version.
and don't project, please.

[Jay]

none.....chill out.

[nateswift]

Okay, so, at the risk of potentially offending None (which is not my intent), let me share with you how a facilitator in a meeting would handle this situation (if it occurred in a meeting vs. on these message boards) based on their training.

None, I understand that you are choosing not to abstain, however, we're here to discuss SMART Recovery, and the tools and techniques that can help people achieve their goals.  So, you're invited to stay for the meeting and observe, and see if you find anything that can be helpful to you. You're also welcome to return, but please understand that we're not here to discuss how much fun drinking/drugging, or other activities were to any of us. We're focused on how to cease those activities.  Again, please feel free to stay and observe, and you're welcome to return to the next meeting, if you'd like.  Simply understand that we're not going to turn the focus of the meeting to anything beyond the standard agenda, and what can help those whose goal it is to abstain.

Well done, Shari.  In our terms, this is a "thread owner" telling a poster to stop derailing the thread.

[rickymooston]

SMART sounds like a typical treatment plan for any mental illness.

Wouldn't work very well for schitzophrenia in my opinion.

I wouldn't call Alcoholims a mental illness per se, even if some do.

[none]

Okay, so, at the risk of potentially offending None (which is not my intent), let me share with you how a facilitator in a meeting would handle this situation (if it occurred in a meeting vs. on these message boards) based on their training.

None, I understand that you are choosing not to abstain, however, we're here to discuss SMART Recovery, and the tools and techniques that can help people achieve their goals.  So, you're invited to stay for the meeting and observe, and see if you find anything that can be helpful to you. You're also welcome to return, but please understand that we're not here to discuss how much fun drinking/drugging, or other activities were to any of us. We're focused on how to cease those activities.  Again, please feel free to stay and observe, and you're welcome to return to the next meeting, if you'd like.  Simply understand that we're not going to turn the focus of the meeting to anything beyond the standard agenda, and what can help those whose goal it is to abstain.

Well done, Shari.  In our terms, this is a "thread owner" telling a poster to stop derailing the thread.

oh yeah -----------I think your assessment is inaccurate...----------
I didn't bring up MY DRINKING. some other.. well you know... person did.
so if your gonna pass out the karma...

[rickymooston]

None, Shari had a nice point.

If your drinking isn't screwing up your life, its not currently a problem for you. It may be at some point.

none.....chill out.

+1

[Shari]

A little aside on the concept of "dual diagnosis" or drinking/drugging combined with mental illness.  Actually, it's a very valid topic, as it's not uncommon.

In SMART Recovery, we deal with the "drinking" (or behavioral) issue, but highly recommend that folks who would benefit from mental health counseling seek that in addition to using the SMART Recovery program. 

Here's a link to our "medications position":  http://www.smartrecovery.org/resources/library/postion/medications.pdf. 

Personal opinion (not speaking on behalf of SMART), I think that when someone is suffering from mental illness and an addictive disorder, it's a bit of a double whammy.  But, the tools and techniques within the program were helpful to a group within a treatment program in AZ, which works with dually-diagnosed people. 

Yet again ... whatever is a comfy fit for the individual will prove the best way forward.

[Shari]

On another note ... turning off the computer for the night, but will happily rejoin you in the morning.

As a "Guest Speaker" (I'm thinking "Guest Typer" would be a better description) I'm thinking that maybe it would have been helpful for me to have broken up some of the initial info I provided?  I believe I might have provided info overload up front.  But, we can learn together, and I'll ask new readers to this thread to kindly consider starting at the top and reading throughout, if this is at the bottom of what you read.  (And regular readers, do please provide feedback to the Admins as to what might be helpful to future guests.)

Anyway, so far, the two tools I've shared along the way are related to Point #1:  Enhancing and maintaining motivation to abstain.  IF people would like a couple more tools shared/described, I'll be pleased to do so.  (Most, if not all of this info can be found on our website, but it's not always easy to find, and I'll be pleased to discuss in more detail.  Though the next tool I'd regale you with is a little rougher to do in text vs. voice.  But I'll gladly do my best!)

And I will continue to check in on this thread and share more information and answer questions as proves helpful.  I'll also not be offended when the thread has "served its purpose".

Appreciate another day with each of you to be able to share ideas and ways forward for those struggling with addictive behaviors.  Thanks so much, and goodnight.

[Former Believer]

+1 to Shari for her good nature and all the time she has spent here.

[Kiahanie]

Thanks, Shari. If you have the time, I'd like to hear about more tools.

[catwixen]

Hello Shari and welcome to the forum. 

I am going to spend some time looking in the smart recovery link, I only just got a new computer monitor today after breaking my other one during a binge last week. LOL I was trying to read all this through a few inches gap that survived my drunken attack on previous moniter...it was awkward.

I am bookmarking basically until I can figure out how to phrase a question I have in mind. So hard to just express the problem sometimes. Going to see my counsellor in a few minutes...will ask her again about how to get motivation...I ask her every month in round a bout ways, but her response always seems to be that in doing the action, the motivation will come...then I go home and don't do the action, so the motivation never comes...

Ah I see the sense in action will create energy and motivation comes with energy...I see the sense in many theoretical ways to get better emotionally, to get sober etc...but doing these actions is soooo hard. So much fear, so much boredom, so much wanting instant gratification...

I don't even know what I am trying to say, I saw the first step in your programme is about getting motivation?

See when you asked people about the 5 important things to them...my first thought was alcohol, because without alcohol I have no life outside my house..

Sorry I will rephrase all this into a simple sentence when I get back from my appt.

Very nice of you Shari to spend some time here. Much appreciated.

[Pastafarian]

Thanks Shari. I'd also like to check out some more tools.

I hear ya cat 

[David M]

Cat, you reminded me that I was going to ask Shari a question about you.  Maybe this is the one you are trying to figure out how to phrase.

We have a member here whose social anxiety is so severe that she can't leave her home unless she's had a few drinks, her addiction to alcohol is so severe that it is killing her and she knows it.  What does Smart Recovery have to offer that can help her out of this bind?

[David M]

... Going to see my counsellor in a few minutes...will ask her again about how to get motivation...I ask her every month in round a bout ways, but her response always seems to be that in doing the action, the motivation will come...then I go home and don't do the action, so the motivation never comes...

Ah I see the sense in action will create energy and motivation comes with energy...I see the sense in many theoretical ways to get better emotionally, to get sober etc...but doing these actions is soooo hard. So much fear, so much boredom, so much wanting instant gratification...

I don't even know what I am trying to say, I saw the first step in your programme is about getting motivation?

See when you asked people about the 5 important things to them...my first thought was alcohol, because without alcohol I have no life outside my house..

Cat, this is a good description for me of the powerlessness that we talk about in AA, and the problem for me was, where do I get the power to do what I have never been able to do on my own before?  And the AA answer is that I must come to believe in a power greater than myself that can restore me to sanity (in your case, enough sanity to leave your house without being "fortified" by alcohol.)

In AA we talk about "fake it till you make it" believing that we can act ourselves in right thinking easier than we can think ourselves into right action.  In other words, if you act as if you believe, you will come to believe as the result of your actions.

I know you say that you don't believe, and I respect that.  But let me ask you this.  You've known me for a little while now.  Do you believe that I believe?  Do you believe that I believe that my belief in God has kept me sober for 26 years, and even though there are still some times when I'm afraid to leave the house, I am running a successful business, active in my community and singing in a choir?

Because if you believe that I believe, that should be enough to get you started on you way.

Maybe Shari has another option for you, but I know that if you follow my suggestion you can make it.  It has worked for millions who were once just as doubtful and hopeless as you and me.

[Shari]

Hello Shari and welcome to the forum. 

See when you asked people about the 5 important things to them...my first thought was alcohol, because without alcohol I have no life outside my house..

Catwixen, I think that this is actually very important, because most people aren't aware of the major role that alcohol or their addictive behavior plays in their lives, and it never makes their top 5 list.  So I actually view this as "good news", that you know the impact it has on your life.  Now it's just how you're going to become motivated, and make the changes to cease the behavior. 

I'm also pleased that you're seeing a counselor, as talking through things can be helpful.  Some people recover on their own, others use groups, many use groups and counseling.  So, it seems to me you're on the right track.  You're examining the role alcohol plays in your life (including the fact that you can't face leaving the house without it), and next step is to determine how you're going to change that behavior.

Are you familiar with the Stages of Change?  (This is based on Prochaska, DiClemente and Norcross' book Changing for Good.)  Stage 1 is Precontemplation.  Stage 2 is Contemplation.  Stage 3 is Determination/Preparation.  Stage 4 is Action.  Stage 5 is maintenance. Stage 6 is Termination.  The interesting thing is that people don't necessarily start at Stage 1, and neatly progress through them, but sometimes go back and forth between the stages. I don't want to speak for you, but I'll paste in the first 3 stages, and perhaps you can ascertain where you feel you currently fit.  (You don't have to share that publicly, just trying to share some helpful ideas with you.)

1. Precontemplation(Not yet acknowledging that there is a problem behavior that needs to be changed)
2. Contemplation (Acknowledging that there is a problem but not yet ready or sure of  wanting to make a change)
3. Preparation/Determination (Getting ready to change)

These words of yours also resonated with me:  "So much fear, so much boredom, so much wanting instant gratification..."

Comments similar in nature are posted by people on our message boards every day.  In fact, I would like to see you post on our message boards, and share precisely the feelings you shared here.  You would hear from a variety of folks who had the exact same struggles, and they would then share with you what action they took to get over the fear, the boredom and the desire for instant gratification.  Consider that, as well.

And, keep asking questions/sharing thoughts here.

[Shari]

David, thanks for sharing your story about how helpful AA has been in your life.  As you note, it has benefited many, many people.  However, like SMART Recovery and all programs, not one program will be a comfortable fit for all. That's why there's a need for a variety of programs, and for people to be aware of them.  My recommendation to Catwixen would be to try AA meetings, try SMART Recovery meetings and online activities, try Women for Sobriety, SOS and LifeRing.  I don't feel comfortable proclaiming which will be the best match for catwixen, but I do feel comfortable proclaiming that she would be warmly welcomed and the participants in each and every program would do their best to reach out to her with helpful ideas and their experiences. 

BTW, David, was it you who previously asked about programs recommending SMART Recovery in the Greater Cleveland area?  Last evening just before 5, I had a call from a counselor at a local treatment facility who was meeting with a client when he called.  He indicated that his client had attended a number of AA meetings, but wasn't comfortable with the program, so they did a little Googling, and found SMART Recovery.  (I gave that counselor lots of credit for trying to find ways to be helpful to his client!)  Anyway, I spoke with his client, and he's going to try some of our online meetings, as well as to attend the Tuesday night face-to-face meeting.  Rod (facilitator) had actually sent a letter to the facility to acquaint them with the SMART Recovery program, but it seems that the letter didn't quite get shared with other staff.  So, Rod's going to meet with the counselor to share more information about the program so that he and hopefully other staff can be aware of program options.  Anyway, I thought that was pretty neat.  :)