So, we're here.
We have a good idea of the how: 14b years ago, a chain of events led to our solar system, which gave us this planet - where life started from simple organisms evolving to more and more complex ones until Homo sapiens arrived 200k years ago.
"Why?" does seem like an important question. But not for every living thing - which is about 95% of life?
For humans it seems important, but again, not for everyone. For the most part, people are just too busy simply living to even wonder why they're busy.
So, who's really asking? Bored people, perhaps? People who aren't doing much? People who don't know what to do with their lives? Maybe going through some kind of quarter/midlife crisis? People going through a rough patch?
Point is, if you're busy living, the "why" simply doesn't matter. If you have a plan or goal and you're living out that plan, you already have the "why."
Say, you're a doctor. Why? Because you wanted to help people and make money doing it. Because you grew up in a house that taught you that helping others is a good thing. Because your grandparents taught your parents the same thing + trillions of other what's, who's, where's, that created those conditions to make you a doctor.
Some would likely say, those little "why's" aren't what we're asking. It's the BIG "WHY."
The reality is, there is no Big Why. Just trillions upon trillions of little who's, what's, where's.
Ironic to be told what reality is, no Big Why, and suggestions about who might be asking the Big Why question (those bored, those who aren't doing much, those who don't know what to do with their lives, those going through some kind of quarter/midlife crisis, those going through a rough patch), when what you might have missed is that you asked yourself the Big Why question, didn't you, and have your answer: We're here. If you're keeping busy living, if you have a goal and a plan, count yourself in with the trillions upon trillions of little who's, what's, where's. That's it--EUREKA! Sorry but I don't think I'll take your word for it. I'll work it out for myself in the given "chain of events".
Quote...Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:...
The Charge of the Light Brigade
Alfred Lord Tennyson - 1809-1892
QuoteI'll work it out for myself in the given "chain of events".
That's exactly my point. "Why?" Is simply just a chain of events that got individuals to where they are.
Quote from: 8livesleft on December 29, 2020, 01:49:25 AM
QuoteI'll work it out for myself in the given "chain of events".
That's exactly my point. "Why?" Is simply just a chain of events that got individuals to where they are.
Interesting. I had thought most folks had their whys well in hand and were searching for The Great Because. And since "why" implies a reason, I have always considered "why not" a more easily accessible first approximation response than any that begins with "because."
I heard more than that. Asking why, for some, is important but not for everyone, you state. So who's asking, you ask, and suggest boredom, idleness, crisis and rough patches as spring boards to asking why. Those that are not busy simply living to even wonder why they're busy. That certainly pinpoints why one would ask why and leaves out a whole slew of great thinkers who have asked WHY over the ages. To suggest little whys are the thing and no Big Why is the reality cuts away at the wonder of it all. "So, we're here."
Quote from: Kiahanie on December 29, 2020, 02:28:41 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on December 29, 2020, 01:49:25 AM
QuoteI'll work it out for myself in the given "chain of events".
That's exactly my point. "Why?" Is simply just a chain of events that got individuals to where they are.
Interesting. I had thought most folks had their whys well in hand and were searching for The Great Because. And since "why" implies a reason, I have always considered "why not" a more easily accessible first approximation response than any that begins with "because."
I don't think that most folks even bother with the great because or great why, again, since they're already busy living it out. Parents, for example, are busy making sure their offspring are well taken care of. So, their purpose, role is crystal clear.
Of course, it can and does happen that people begin to question their roles, their choices in the context of the so called "big picture. In some cases, it could also be that your path/skills totally don't suit your environment and so, a total reinvention is required. Or maybe everything just "fits" and yet you don't feel satisfied or fulfilled - in which case, it could be a matter of recalibration or reaffirmation.
QuoteThat certainly pinpoints why one would ask why and leaves out a whole slew of great thinkers who have asked WHY over the ages. To suggest little whys are the thing and no Big Why is the reality cuts away at the wonder of it all. "So, we're here."
Sure, big thinkers have asked that question and have attempted to answer it. But, I think each of us has the "why." We just have to discover it, confirm it, calibrate it with our own realities. Some of us even change it altogether - as in the case of theists turning atheist and vice versa.
But, in my opinion, it's easier to discover and take ownership of the "why" if we break it all down to their most basic steps starting with the smaller, more real questions.
Of course.
However, the "chain of events" you reference leading to "So, we're here." is not THE given ALL in ALL but then again it may reassure those who may get bored, idle, in a crisis or a rough patch to get busy with life in order to avoid having time on their hands to consider more than the little why. ||wink||
Quote from: 8livesleft on December 29, 2020, 03:04:04 AM
Quote from: Kiahanie on December 29, 2020, 02:28:41 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on December 29, 2020, 01:49:25 AM
QuoteI'll work it out for myself in the given "chain of events".
That's exactly my point. "Why?" Is simply just a chain of events that got individuals to where they are.
Interesting. I had thought most folks had their whys well in hand and were searching for The Great Because. And since "why" implies a reason, I have always considered "why not" a more easily accessible first approximation response than any that begins with "because."
I don't think that most folks even bother with the great because or great why, again, since they're already busy living it out. Parents, for example, are busy making sure their offspring are well taken care of. So, their purpose, role is crystal clear.
. . .
Yes. What we really believe is revealed in our actions. I think Maritime said something like that too, if I understood right.
Quote from: Kiahanie on December 29, 2020, 05:25:30 AM
What we really believe is revealed in our actions.
Possibly.
I think the real source of what's causing so many to feel unfulfilled, dissatisfied, disconnected or otherwise feeling like life itself is pointless - is that they're simply following what they've been taught or doing what's expected. There's no real freedom or agency in either.
So, even if someone's making a lot of money, doing something they're very good at, they can still end up feeling empty.
Granted, theists typically have an easier go of it because of the 24/7 reinforcement. But, it still happens that theists can feel the same thing - all it takes is dissonance between what they're told and the reality they're experiencing.
Kind of like Francis. Claims he's not racist and talks about love and how Jesus was a brown Semite. But then votes for and eagerly defends Trump. Goes beyond me. Certainly I think actions speak louder than words.
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on January 07, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
Kind of like Francis. Claims he's not racist and talks about love and how Jesus was a brown Semite. But then votes for and eagerly defends Trump. Goes beyond me. Certainly I think actions speak louder than words.
Yes! That's the dissonance I'm talking about. When you have 2 or more opposing views conflicting with each other.
Like this Trump guy. I know lots of people in my country who think he's the best. Mostly religious women in fact. I know they've heard the stories, seen his behavior but then they say that since he's a republican that he's somehow automatically better than any Democrat.
Holy water goggles, I guess?
Quote from: 8livesleft on January 07, 2021, 11:58:21 PM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on January 07, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
Kind of like Francis. Claims he's not racist and talks about love and how Jesus was a brown Semite. But then votes for and eagerly defends Trump. Goes beyond me. Certainly I think actions speak louder than words.
Yes! That's the dissonance I'm talking about. When you have 2 or more opposing views conflicting with each other.
Like this Trump guy. I know lots of people in my country who think he's the best. Mostly religious women in fact. I know they've heard the stories, seen his behavior but then they say that since he's a republican that he's somehow automatically better than any Democrat.
Holy water goggles, I guess?
Woah I'm surprised he has some fans in the Phillipines, what would they like about him? Is it just because they think he's a Christian?
And yes, it's difficult to take Francis's claims about love and peace seriously, when he continues to repeat slogans spouted by racists and voted for someone who is demonstrabily racist. It's really weird I actually can't get my mind around it!
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on January 08, 2021, 04:42:02 PM
Woah I'm surprised he has some fans in the Phillipines, what would they like about him? Is it just because they think he's a Christian?
I was shocked too! and Yes that's basically a yuuuuge part of it. So, he's a huge draw for old ladies and stuff. The others that we know are pro-trump because they work with law enforcement in the US or are related to someone in the field. There are others we know who are hardcore trumpets. They follow QAnon and ONLY listen to *that side of the "news" - stuff you wouldn't be surprised if it was from the dark web. What's surprising though is how far removed they are from the typical trump die hards - you know, flannel shirts, beards, maga hats, some kind of fishing vest or outdoors jacket.
Quote
And yes, it's difficult to take Francis's claims about love and peace seriously, when he continues to repeat slogans spouted by racists and voted for someone who is demonstrabily racist. It's really weird I actually can't get my mind around it!
The human mind is an amazing at devising ways to cope with completely contrasting concepts. It can put a barrier between the concepts or place them in their own sections so the person can switch between modes as needed.
But it seems to me that Francis is simply just pro trump mostly because he's a republican. I wouldn't be surprised if he voted for someone else in the preliminaries or the time when both parties vote for their candidates.
Quote from: 8livesleft on January 08, 2021, 10:32:15 PM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on January 08, 2021, 04:42:02 PM
Woah I'm surprised he has some fans in the Phillipines, what would they like about him? Is it just because they think he's a Christian?
I was shocked too! and Yes that's basically a yuuuuge part of it. So, he's a huge draw for old ladies and stuff. The others that we know are pro-trump because they work with law enforcement in the US or are related to someone in the field. There are others we know who are hardcore trumpets. They follow QAnon and ONLY listen to *that side of the "news" - stuff you wouldn't be surprised if it was from the dark web. What's surprising though is how far removed they are from the typical trump die hards - you know, flannel shirts, beards, maga hats, some kind of fishing vest or outdoors jacket.
Quote
And yes, it's difficult to take Francis's claims about love and peace seriously, when he continues to repeat slogans spouted by racists and voted for someone who is demonstrabily racist. It's really weird I actually can't get my mind around it!
The human mind is an amazing at devising ways to cope with completely contrasting concepts. It can put a barrier between the concepts or place them in their own sections so the person can switch between modes as needed.
But it seems to me that Francis is simply just pro trump mostly because he's a republican. I wouldn't be surprised if he voted for someone else in the preliminaries or the time when both parties vote for their candidates.
I thought it was for that reason. But I'd really question whether Trump is really a christian. He's not very open about his faith so it's hard to be sure.
As with Francis, I wouldn't be too lenient. He probably is a closet racist, like most christians, they're good at hiding it though. Can talk about love and peace all day but dudes voted for a rapist and an overtly racist president. I won't be fooled so easily.
QuoteI thought it was for that reason. But I'd really question whether Trump is really a christian. He's not very open about his faith so it's hard to be sure.
I'm pretty sure it's all for show.
That said, what is it to be a "true Christian" anyway? Is it following the Bible word for word? Is it following Jesus again word for word? Because that would make you a pretty messed up person either way because it either means you're dishing out punishment or getting yourself nailed to the cross.
Or is it following the loose concept of Jesus? Which is being a kind/loving/selfless person or a "man for others." and if that's all it is, then why follow the Bible at all? It's not rocket science. There's no magic divine formula. Just stop being a prick and help people as much as possible.
Wait wait wait a minute. Hold on there. You said there is no magic beans or divine formula? I thought "42" was settled science.
Quote from: Kiahanie on January 09, 2021, 10:57:02 PM
Wait wait wait a minute. Hold on there. You said there is no magic beans or divine formula? I thought "42" was settled science.
Haha yes
Ah. Thank you. My monoverse was shaken there for a minute.
Quote from: Kiahanie on January 09, 2021, 11:11:29 PM
Ah. Thank you. My monoverse was shaken there for a minute.
LOL they should make a series out of that. Would be cool if we had that, foundation and dune showing at the same time.
Quote from: 8livesleft on December 23, 2020, 01:19:26 AM
So, we're here.
We have a good idea of the how: 14b years ago, a chain of events led to our solar system, which gave us this planet - where life started from simple organisms evolving to more and more complex ones until Homo sapiens arrived 200k years ago.
"Why?" does seem like an important question. But not for every living thing - which is about 95% of life?
For humans it seems important, but again, not for everyone. For the most part, people are just too busy simply living to even wonder why they're busy.
So, who's really asking? Bored people, perhaps? People who aren't doing much? People who don't know what to do with their lives? Maybe going through some kind of quarter/midlife crisis? People going through a rough patch?
Point is, if you're busy living, the "why" simply doesn't matter. If you have a plan or goal and you're living out that plan, you already have the "why."
Say, you're a doctor. Why? Because you wanted to help people and make money doing it. Because you grew up in a house that taught you that helping others is a good thing. Because your grandparents taught your parents the same thing + trillions of other what's, who's, where's, that created those conditions to make you a doctor.
Some would likely say, those little "why's" aren't what we're asking. It's the BIG "WHY."
The reality is, there is no Big Why. Just trillions upon trillions of little who's, what's, where's.
It seem to me the purpose of life in this world is to gain money and pay taxes. Why? Because the world says so.
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2021, 05:28:05 AM
It seem to me the purpose of life in this world is to gain money and pay taxes. Why? Because the world says so.
Money is just a means to an end for most.
However, it does appear that the world in general celebrates those with wealth as if they were heroes or idols. So, others want to follow in their footsteps but are they making money just to get wealthy or to become famous and be idolized or maybe they're doing it to prove their worth?
Grand luring by religious people. There's no happiness in money so join our Jehova cult instead. Lol. Yes society isn't perfect , but I'm not joining any cult which expects me to worship and devote my life to an invisible God. ||popcorn||
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 29, 2021, 06:58:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2021, 05:28:05 AM
It seem to me the purpose of life in this world is to gain money and pay taxes. Why? Because the world says so.
Money is just a means to an end for most.
However, it does appear that the world in general celebrates those with wealth as if they were heroes or idols. So, others want to follow in their footsteps but are they making money just to get wealthy or to become famous and be idolized or maybe they're doing it to prove their worth?
I think people have become brainwashed by economics which is geared toward getting people to consume as much as possible.
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 29, 2021, 11:53:14 AM
Grand luring by religious people. There's no happiness in money so join our Jehova cult instead. Lol. Yes society isn't perfect , but I'm not joining any cult which expects me to worship and devote my life to an invisible God. ||popcorn||
Do what you like but the world's economics is broken and not sustainable and plutocracy sucks.
I'm not sure I was claiming otherwise. But I just don't see the solution in religion. Maybe you forget that the government and people fund religious institutions, so they too rely on the economic system in place. So how would a world run by JWs look? What's your solution to the broken economic system?
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2021, 09:36:53 PM
Do what you like but the world's economics is broken and not sustainable and plutocracy sucks.
That is something I can agree with you, Jst.
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2021, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 29, 2021, 06:58:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2021, 05:28:05 AM
It seem to me the purpose of life in this world is to gain money and pay taxes. Why? Because the world says so.
Money is just a means to an end for most.
However, it does appear that the world in general celebrates those with wealth as if they were heroes or idols. So, others want to follow in their footsteps but are they making money just to get wealthy or to become famous and be idolized or maybe they're doing it to prove their worth?
I think people have become brainwashed by economics which is geared toward getting people to consume as much as possible.
You're right but only for the sector that consumes. The rest are living in near poverty working themselves ragged to provide for the consumers.
The thing is, no matter how many problems there are in the world, it still doesn't prove that Jst's God is real. You can be simple as an atheist, without falling for all the consumerism. But then it just proves there's no need for religion anymore. No more religious tickets getting sold. ||popcorn||
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 11:29:33 PM
The thing is, no matter how many problems there are in the world, it still doesn't prove that Jst's God is real. You can be simple as an atheist, without falling for all the consumerism. But then it just proves there's no need for religion anymore. No more religious tickets getting sold. ||popcorn||
The way I see it is that, if you don't need it then great. It means you have options. But truly, the biggest reason why it persists is that the believers feel they don't have the option.
I'm talking about the solid religious bases - the poor.
Their suffering today will be "worth it" with the promised afterlife.
If it is revealed that this is nothing but a means to control and there is no change, no alternative system in place, there will be repercussions and it's not gonna be good for anyone.
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 10:02:44 PM
I'm not sure I was claiming otherwise. But I just don't see the solution in religion. Maybe you forget that the government and people fund religious institutions, so they too rely on the economic system in place. So how would a world run by JWs look? What's your solution to the broken economic system?
It needs to revolve around a more utilitarion and scientific system. In this day of technology where humans can do so much more with less it makes no sense people should have to still toil their life away just to make a living. Making inferior products (planned obsolescence) is a common pratice to ensure maximum consumption and maximum profits, keeping people toiling just to buy the same things over and over and over again. This kind of stuff needs to go. Maximum profits are holding up progress and making slaves of the people.
I don't know how a world run by Witnesses would look. Right now, both organizationally and individually many things are created and sustained by volunteers.
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 30, 2021, 10:53:02 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2021, 09:25:50 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 29, 2021, 06:58:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2021, 05:28:05 AM
It seem to me the purpose of life in this world is to gain money and pay taxes. Why? Because the world says so.
Money is just a means to an end for most.
However, it does appear that the world in general celebrates those with wealth as if they were heroes or idols. So, others want to follow in their footsteps but are they making money just to get wealthy or to become famous and be idolized or maybe they're doing it to prove their worth?
I think people have become brainwashed by economics which is geared toward getting people to consume as much as possible.
You're right but only for the sector that consumes. The rest are living in near poverty working themselves ragged to provide for the consumers.
I feel I am both a victim and a perpetrator but it's the only system in place.
Y
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 30, 2021, 11:56:02 PM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 11:29:33 PM
The thing is, no matter how many problems there are in the world, it still doesn't prove that Jst's God is real. You can be simple as an atheist, without falling for all the consumerism. But then it just proves there's no need for religion anymore. No more religious tickets getting sold. ||popcorn||
The way I see it is that, if you don't need it then great. It means you have options. But truly, the biggest reason why it persists is that the believers feel they don't have the option.
I'm talking about the solid religious bases - the poor.
Their suffering today will be "worth it" with the promised afterlife.
If it is revealed that this is nothing but a means to control and there is no change, no alternative system in place, there will be repercussions and it's not gonna be good for anyone.
I don't think you realize that good portions of the NT are about doing good because you love doing good. The law is not there for righteous persons, who by nature keep the law. The Law is there to judge law breakers. "Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly,* recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal* and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers," (1Ti 1:9).
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 01, 2021, 06:41:13 AM
YQuote from: 8livesleft on April 30, 2021, 11:56:02 PM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 11:29:33 PM
The thing is, no matter how many problems there are in the world, it still doesn't prove that Jst's God is real. You can be simple as an atheist, without falling for all the consumerism. But then it just proves there's no need for religion anymore. No more religious tickets getting sold. ||popcorn||
The way I see it is that, if you don't need it then great. It means you have options. But truly, the biggest reason why it persists is that the believers feel they don't have the option.
I'm talking about the solid religious bases - the poor.
Their suffering today will be "worth it" with the promised afterlife.
If it is revealed that this is nothing but a means to control and there is no change, no alternative system in place, there will be repercussions and it's not gonna be good for anyone.
I don't think you realize that good portions of the NT are about doing good because you love doing good. The law is not there for righteous persons, who by nature keep the law. The Law is there to judge law breakers. "Now we know that the Law is fine if one applies it properly,* recognizing that law is made, not for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, ungodly and sinners, disloyal* and profane, murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, manslayers," (1Ti 1:9).
Any behavior is learned or developed through the environment or upbringing. The mechanism is still reward and punishment, if "doing good" is often rewarded then the person will likely develop a habit out of it. But, if the reverse is true, then it's far less likely. Likewise, if "doing bad" is rewarding for one reason or another, then the person is more likely to continue so long as the reward overshadows the risk.
So, of course the laws will be there to limit those negative behaviors as much as possible.
Quote from: 8livesleft on April 30, 2021, 11:56:02 PM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 11:29:33 PM
The thing is, no matter how many problems there are in the world, it still doesn't prove that Jst's God is real. You can be simple as an atheist, without falling for all the consumerism. But then it just proves there's no need for religion anymore. No more religious tickets getting sold. ||popcorn||
The way I see it is that, if you don't need it then great. It means you have options. But truly, the biggest reason why it persists is that the believers feel they don't have the option.
I'm talking about the solid religious bases - the poor.
Their suffering today will be "worth it" with the promised afterlife.
If it is revealed that this is nothing but a means to control and there is no change, no alternative system in place, there will be repercussions and it's not gonna be good for anyone.
Agreed. A lot of the time religion is there to keep the poor in their place and subserviant to the system.
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 01, 2021, 06:16:42 AM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on April 30, 2021, 10:02:44 PM
I'm not sure I was claiming otherwise. But I just don't see the solution in religion. Maybe you forget that the government and people fund religious institutions, so they too rely on the economic system in place. So how would a world run by JWs look? What's your solution to the broken economic system?
It needs to revolve around a more utilitarion and scientific system. In this day of technology where humans can do so much more with less it makes no sense people should have to still toil their life away just to make a living. Making inferior products (planned obsolescence) is a common pratice to ensure maximum consumption and maximum profits, keeping people toiling just to buy the same things over and over and over again. This kind of stuff needs to go. Maximum profits are holding up progress and making slaves of the people.
I don't know how a world run by Witnesses would look. Right now, both organizationally and individually many things are created and sustained by volunteers.
You might be right there. I've always been for living simply, within one's means. I think both the religious and the non-religious can fall victim to greed and excess consumerism. I think we'd all be better without a system that preserves and promotes this.
I think fundamentally people ask Why because there is enjoyment and fulfillment to be found in the asking of it and/or in the exploration of/thinking about it irrespective of whether or not there's some answer. And even without "THE" answer, there could be, in the searching, answerS or possible answers to other, unanticipated questions...avenues to go down one might otherwise have never travailed.
Quote from: Valyza1 on May 10, 2021, 09:46:19 PM
I think fundamentally people ask Why because there is enjoyment and fulfillment to be found in the asking of it and/or in the exploration of/thinking about it irrespective of whether or not there's some answer. And even without "THE" answer, there could be, in the searching, answerS or possible answers to other, unanticipated questions...avenues to go down one might otherwise have never travailed.
Yes, I believe it's based on our inherent need to seek motivation. I equate motivation with purpose. So, our motivation, purpose, or "why?" can be anything. Love, lust, envy, regret, revenge, fame, regard, approval, god...all these things can make us do amazing or abhorrent things.