Forced birth is maternal hell

[8livesleft]

Are you really going to dispute that? I can prove that. If something happens, like for example an asteroid hits the Earth, we all experience it. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Sent from my M2103K19G using Tapatalk

One asteroid actually did hit the earth on march 11 2022 but hardly anyone noticed it besides a few astronomers and a hanfull of observers.

[Maria-Juana]

One asteroid actually did hit the earth on march 11 2022 but hardly anyone noticed it besides a few astronomers and a hanfull of observers.

Awww. 
Missed it.

[Boots]

bodily autonomy is ALL it is about.

Then what about the unborn's bodily autonomy?  I would think killing someone would be not respecting their bodily autonomy

you are trying to invent special rights for the fetus, because without them, your opinion cannot stand.

Wrong.  I am acknowledging the right to life of the unborn, just like I acknowledge the right to life of all human life.  I am requesting no special rights – simply the same right to life for all.   

this question should answer both of yours above.

In what other circumstance that you could name, would being forced to let another person to use your body to live be OK?  (this is what the finger in the nose hypothetical is about, btw--which is probably why you don't like the analogy: it's too accurate, and too simple to dodge)

[Boots]

I think your response to have no rules at all... even for abortions that realistically don't happen that late (as you claim), actually shows your ulterior motives... and it is those motives which is the real issue, imho

@Francis

You posted the above on 5/11; I asked you in thread--nay, insisted--that you elucidate me on my ulterior motives on 5/12.  I also PM'ed you to get you to respond.  More than enough time has expired, and there has been no response, so...here we go.

When you accuse me of an ulterior motive, my take is that you are essentially accusing me of being untruthful (whether that's what you mean or not is irrelevant--it's what I'm interpreting, which I made clear in my PM).  You don't get to do that and just walk away, while I sit quietly and take it.

I take honesty and honor VERY seriously, and your accusation is highly offensive to me.  I put it to you that you don't have any evidence to support that opinion, and you are therefore blowing hot air--possibly to avoid the actual issue of the argument, but at this point I don't care.  f**k your accusation, and kindly pound sand.

And for the record, my motive is to protect bodily autonomy for everyone.  Period.

[Boots]

Shannon Q gets it

https://youtube.com/shorts/I9qHuvj0E2U?feature=share

[Kiahanie]

Appropriating another person's body, time, energy, life opportunities for their own purposes is criminally regarded as forced labor. (The pun is unintentional but appropriate.) Forced labor in this country is permitted only as a consequence of criminal conviction.

In what way are the forced-birthers not advocating to legalize forced labor?

[Boots]

Appropriating another person's body, time, energy, life opportunities for their own purposes is criminally regarded as forced labor. (The pun is unintentional but appropriate.) Forced labor in this country is permitted only as a consequence of criminal conviction.

In what way are the forced-birthers not advocating to legalize forced labor?

BUH BUH BUT IT'S AN INNOCENNT BABY ZYGOTE FOEAAUEUOETUS!!!!

[Kiahanie]

Ummmmmmm......yes.

Bit for tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands,  women have aborted fetuses for one reason or another, resource scarcity being a prime reason.

One has to wonder if the forced-birthers will one day set up forced labor camps for women at risk of choosing an abortion.

I understand RonnyD has his eye on some property next to Disney World.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Ummmmmmm......yes.

Bit for tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands,  women have aborted fetuses for one reason or another, resource scarcity being a prime reason.

One has to wonder if the forced-birthers will one day set up forced labor camps for women at risk of choosing an abortion.

I understand RonnyD has his eye on some property next to Disney World.

Forced birth vs forced death.  Which causes the least amount of unnecessary suffering?

[8livesleft]

Ummmmmmm......yes.

Bit for tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands,  women have aborted fetuses for one reason or another, resource scarcity being a prime reason.

One has to wonder if the forced-birthers will one day set up forced labor camps for women at risk of choosing an abortion.

I understand RonnyD has his eye on some property next to Disney World.

Forced birth vs forced death.  Which causes the least amount of unnecessary suffering?

Research says that the fetus can feel pain past the 6th month of pregnancy. So, no "suffering" prior to that.

During abortions tho, doctors administer pain relief medication to the fetus as well. Pill abortions mimic miscarriages so if it occurred in the early pregnancy then minimal suffering involved.

Birth is extremely painful and stressful for both the mother and child for many hours or even days of labor. Post birth, the mother could still feel the after effects and the child would be bombarded with all these unpleasant and maybe traumatising experiences.

If the birth was unwanted from the start then the mother could feel even more trauma and might take it out on a then fully human baby and the mother would continue feeling the effect even post adoption.

The baby, under the care of an unwilling mother could live a tormented life and may also repeat the situation with it's own children.

Even under the foster system, it won't exactly be disneyland for the child.

[Kiahanie]

Ummmmmmm......yes.

Bit for tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands,  women have aborted fetuses for one reason or another, resource scarcity being a prime reason.

One has to wonder if the forced-birthers will one day set up forced labor camps for women at risk of choosing an abortion.

I understand RonnyD has his eye on some property next to Disney World.

Forced birth vs forced death.  Which causes the least amount of unnecessary suffering?

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

Depending on the stage, a fetus may feel momentary pain. The pain of carrying and raising an unwanted child is a pain that can last 9 months to 18 years, plus the dangers of complications.

[kevin]

pain is not important unless we decide it must be.

rember the slaughter hogs that were "euthanized" during covid because the killing floors were shut down?

the technique was to shutthem into a sealed room together and inject steam to about 170 F.

pork cooks at 140 F.

cooking hogs to deathmight take an hour until they stop screaming. then theywere bulldozed out and more run in.

cooking to death is the technique being used right now to kill birds contaminated with avian influenza.

i am not impressed when people say tbey object to pain.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

That's ridiculous.

[Kiahanie]

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

That's ridiculous.

And that comment is beneath you.

The ancient traditional determinations of life were top of head (Yahweh's preference), whole head, severing the umbilical.

Billions of people have honored this system since the origin of humanity. You may have different ideas, but the historical tradition is not ridiculous. It has served the test of time and the age of an individual and their lifetime are measured from birth, not from conception.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

That's ridiculous.

And that comment is beneath you.

The ancient traditional determinations of life were top of head (Yahweh's preference), whole head, severing the umbilical.

Billions of people have honored this system since the origin of humanity. You may have different ideas, but the historical tradition is not ridiculous. It has served the test of time and the age of an individual and their lifetime are measured from birth, not from conception.

The Law reveals that Jehovah sees the unborn as a life when he instructs "life for life" for a fatality of the unborn (Ex 21:22).  Properly viewed offspring are a gift from Jehovah.

It appears that neither you nor MeAgain are willing to own the consequences of your position.  MeAgain denies forced birth and you deny life.

[kevin]

messy, isnt it?

[Kiahanie]

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

That's ridiculous.

And that comment is beneath you.

The ancient traditional determinations of life were top of head (Yahweh's preference), whole head, severing the umbilical.

Billions of people have honored this system since the origin of humanity. You may have different ideas, but the historical tradition is not ridiculous. It has served the test of time and the age of an individual and their lifetime are measured from birth, not from conception.

The Law reveals that Jehovah sees the unborn as a life when he instructs "life for life" for a fatality of the unborn (Ex 21:22).  Properly viewed offspring are a gift from Jehovah.

It appears that neither you nor MeAgain are willing to own the consequences of your position.  MeAgain denies forced birth and you deny life.

Unsure what bible you are reading from. Your quote is part of instructions for compensation for loss of property. NIV reads

21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

22 "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 "An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye.

Note that the "serious injury" is to the woman, not the fetus. In the future, quote the whole Law. The Law was not created to support Christian notions, it was created to guide the Jewish people. Respect it for what it is. Goddamn cherrypickers.

MeAgain does not actually deny "forced birth." She just objects to the term being used to describe the objective consequences of her ideology.

And I do not deny life. The unborn do not yet have a life distinct from any other organ.

Messy, isn't it?

[Mark]

pain is not important unless we decide it must be.

rember the slaughter hogs that were "euthanized" during covid because the killing floors were shut down?

the technique was to shutthem into a sealed room together and inject steam to about 170 F.

pork cooks at 140 F.

cooking hogs to deathmight take an hour until they stop screaming. then theywere bulldozed out and more run in.

cooking to death is the technique being used right now to kill birds contaminated with avian influenza.

i am not impressed when people say tbey object to pain.

I object to pain. Who's killing these hogs and birds? They should be arrested!

Mark's moral law, number 6: Minimize the suffering of all organisms.

[kevin]

mark , in america cruelty to animals is accepted. the people killing the hogs and chickens are hog and chicken farmers. its how we do animals in the united states of america.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

There is no forced death since the fetus has not yet been born.

That's ridiculous.


And that comment is beneath you.

The ancient traditional determinations of life were top of head (Yahweh's preference), whole head, severing the umbilical.

Billions of people have honored this system since the origin of humanity. You may have different ideas, but the historical tradition is not ridiculous. It has served the test of time and the age of an individual and their lifetime are measured from birth, not from conception.

The Law reveals that Jehovah sees the unborn as a life when he instructs "life for life" for a fatality of the unborn (Ex 21:22).  Properly viewed offspring are a gift from Jehovah.

It appears that neither you nor MeAgain are willing to own the consequences of your position.  MeAgain denies forced birth and you deny life.

Unsure what bible you are reading from. Your quote is part of instructions for compensation for loss of property. NIV reads

21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

22 "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 "An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye.

Note that the "serious injury" is to the woman, not the fetus. In the future, quote the whole Law. The Law was not created to support Christian notions, it was created to guide the Jewish people. Respect it for what it is. Goddamn cherrypickers.

MeAgain does not actually deny "forced birth." She just objects to the term being used to describe the objective consequences of her ideology.

And I do not deny life. The unborn do not yet have a life distinct from any other organ.

Messy, isn't it?

It applies to both, or there is no need to bring up pregnancy at all.  Murder is handled elsewhere.  

It's true that the Jews did not consider it a soul (living being) until it was born, but being from a culture that highly valued offspring it's highly unlikely elective abortion was ever an issue. 

And it seems to me more accurate to say the mother is an organ to the fetus.  

It seems to me mothers are often coerced into abortion by things beyond their control, like economics.  They sacrifice their unborn on the altar of capitalism, maybe just to survive.  In my mind your terminology glosses over the seriousness of the matter and the value of their sacrifice and provides an easy out for her oppressors who kill humans both before and after they're born. 

It's the system that's killing all of the unborn.    

      

[Jstwebbrowsing]

pain is not important unless we decide it must be.

rember the slaughter hogs that were "euthanized" during covid because the killing floors were shut down?

the technique was to shutthem into a sealed room together and inject steam to about 170 F.

pork cooks at 140 F.

cooking hogs to deathmight take an hour until they stop screaming. then theywere bulldozed out and more run in.

cooking to death is the technique being used right now to kill birds contaminated with avian influenza.

i am not impressed when people say tbey object to pain.

Of course.  "The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much." (Lk 16:10)

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••
It seems to me mothers are often coerced into abortion by things beyond their control, like economics.  They sacrifice their unborn on the altar of capitalism, maybe just to survive.  In my mind your terminology glosses over the seriousness of the matter and the value of their sacrifice and provides an easy out for her oppressors who kill humans both before and after they're born.

It's the system that's killing all of the unborn.   

Calm down. All the unborn are not being killed.

You are right that the system is killing born people, too. You are also correct that I place much more value on the born than the unborn, primarily because the born are in the process of living a life.

The forced-birthers tend to forget about the welfare of post-birth people who are already living their lives. I would be less skeptical of their "pro-life" sincerity if they showed equal political concern for the lives of the born.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

••••

••••
It seems to me mothers are often coerced into abortion by things beyond their control, like economics.  They sacrifice their unborn on the altar of capitalism, maybe just to survive.  In my mind your terminology glosses over the seriousness of the matter and the value of their sacrifice and provides an easy out for her oppressors who kill humans both before and after they're born.

It's the system that's killing all of the unborn.   

Calm down. All the unborn are not being killed.

You are right that the system is killing born people, too. You are also correct that I place much more value on the born than the unborn, primarily because the born are in the process of living a life.

The forced-birthers tend to forget about the welfare of post-birth people who are already living their lives. I would be less skeptical of their "pro-life" sincerity if they showed equal political concern for the lives of the born.

They are apparently worth less than filling pockets.

[kevin]

its not money. its self-righteousness.

[Mark]

mark , in america cruelty to animals is accepted. the people killing the hogs and chickens are hog and chicken farmers. its how we do animals in the united states of america.

How is that legal? I thought the USA was supposed to be a relatively civilized country!

[kevin]

you were wrong.

[maritime]

^When in Texas...exaggerate?

How many instances besides the following allow you to say "WE" as in "AMERICA"? https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/pigs-were-roasted-alive-in-coronavirus-mass-extermination/[/url]

Counter story from NPR:
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/05/869724349/farmers-find-ways-to-save-millions-of-pigs-from-slaughter

[Jstwebbrowsing]

its not money. its self-righteousness.

Yes, I see that too.

[meAgain]

messy, isnt it?

Yes, life is messy.  Life will always be messy.  But what a false notion to think one can prevent the mess in choosing wrong.  Such can never be the case.  It doesn't work that way.

[8livesleft]

messy, isnt it?

Yes, life is messy.  Life will always be messy.  But what a false notion to think one can prevent the mess in choosing wrong.  Such can never be the case.  It doesn't work that way.

If it didn't work then it wouldn't recur.

Good or bad, fact is mankind in all history has resorted to abortion as a solution. Been going on before the bible was created and even abrahamists (that's jews, christians, islamists) do it.

So, it cannot be stopped, no matter what you do. Once the mother decides with finality, she will find a way to get it done. If it means travelling to another state, country or by illegal means, she'll do it. And since it's being practiced somewhere, it will always be an option.

Now, we can limit this practice with better education, pre/post counselling etc...but only to an extent.