Is God Imaginary?

Community => Introduce Yourself => Topic started by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 01:09:09 AM

Title: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 01:09:09 AM
Hi all!  Technically, I've posted in this forum before, but never formally said hi in this thread.  My screen name sounds female-ish, but I'm actually male. 

I think secular discussions about God are utterly fascinating and I'm glad this forum exists.  Some of my most prolific friendships in real life are with secularists, rationalists and atheists, but there rarely seems to be occasion to broach the subject.  It happens to be their stated position on the topic, but we tend to get into non-related discussions more often than not. 

The forum title fascinates me because the question itself is so layered and doesn't seem to lend itself to a binary yes/no answer, at least to me.  I hope to participate in some illuminating discussions in the forum at some point.  My philosophy on having discussions is mainly to take the steal man approach in the hopes that the best lights of various points of view can be given the weight they deserve.  It is tempting, especially online, to take an adversarial position and focus on pointing out the other person's flaws.  I don't, however, believe this is necessary or helpful.  Should flaws be shown up?  Yes, but I don't think that's the job of someone else in a discussion.  Rather, if questions are asked in place of criticism, than both participants have the opportunity to learn and grow and see their *own* flaws.  It's taken me a bit of time to realize this, but *everyone's* thinking is flawed. 

Hope to talk with you all soon!


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Case on September 24, 2020, 01:33:08 AM
Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 01:45:16 AM
yeah vasil. everbody gets along so don't rock the boat
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 01:59:06 AM
If I'm treated with respect, I will treat with respect in return.  If I'm treated with disrespect, I will still try my best to treat with respect, because to me, being disrespectful is to be blind to the other person's value and blindness is a disability, and I try to be kind to the disabled. 
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 02:45:13 AM
what are you interests instead of trying to be a shrink?
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 02:56:22 AM
Pretending to be a shrink, fantasizing about being a shrink and photobombing psychiatric hospital staff group photos. 
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 02:58:52 AM
Also, I like theatre, improv and chess


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 03:08:23 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 02:58:52 AM
Also, I like theatre, improv and chess


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start a secular discussion about god
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:12:50 AM
I will probably do that at some point. 


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Mr. Blackwell on September 24, 2020, 03:13:00 AM
Hi.


Welcome to the forum...again.












Well, guess we'll see you in a couple years! In the meantime please enjoy this +1



Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:12:50 AM
I will probably do that at some point. 


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i doubt it
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:25:39 AM
Quote from: none on September 24, 2020, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:12:50 AM
I will probably do that at some point. 


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i doubt it
Why's that?


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 03:27:44 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:25:39 AM
Quote from: none on September 24, 2020, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:12:50 AM
I will probably do that at some point. 


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i doubt it
Why's that?


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are you secular?
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:33:24 AM
Not 100% secular, if that's what you mean, but I have a secular side.  Most of my discussions are secular in nature. 


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
Would you consider a discussion about the meaning
of the word "God" to be a secular discussion about God?


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 03:52:40 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
Would you consider a discussion about the meaning
of the word "God" to be a secular discussion about God?


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f**k if I know , I'm not supposed to argue in the intro thread
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 05:02:39 AM
Quote from: none on September 24, 2020, 03:52:40 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
Would you consider a discussion about the meaning
of the word "God" to be a secular discussion about God?


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f**k if I know , I'm not supposed to argue in the intro thread
Then don't


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on September 24, 2020, 05:34:38 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 05:02:39 AM
Quote from: none on September 24, 2020, 03:52:40 AM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:36:50 AM
Would you consider a discussion about the meaning
of the word "God" to be a secular discussion about God?


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f**k if I know , I'm not supposed to argue in the intro thread
Then don't


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i am right, correct in my assessment
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: ak.yonathan on September 24, 2020, 06:23:56 AM
Hello Valyza1, I like chess too. If playing as white I will usually opt for the Queen's Gambit, and if I'm black and my opponent plays e4 I will try the Caro-kann or the Marshall Gambit from the Ruy Lopez, if s/he plays d4 I will play the Nimzo-Indian defense.

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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: ak.yonathan on September 24, 2020, 06:23:56 AM
Hello Valyza1, I like chess too. If playing as white I will usually opt for the Queen's Gambit, and if I'm black and my opponent plays e4 I will try the Caro-kann or the Marshall Gambit from the Ruy Lopez, if s/he plays d4 I will play the Nimzo-Indian defense.

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Cool.  I'm not as familiar with the names of the openings, but my default opening move is d4 for white and d5 for black


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: ak.yonathan on September 24, 2020, 11:02:49 AM
I think that objectively d4 is the best move for white however playing d5 after white has played d4 himself could lead into the Queen's Gambit, an opening I'm fond of as I stated previously due to it allowing white center control and rapid development. In that situation I would think your best bet is to try a Slav defense (playing pawn to c6). If white plays e4 then it could lead to a Scandinavian defense which I don't like as it violates an opening principle, which is don't bring your queen out too early.

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Title: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 12:11:56 PM
So far, the only principles I've been able to make use of are basic principles for every move (look at the whole board, decide why you think your opponent just moved the way he/she did, ask want to want to achieve offensively, list your options based on the answers to the previous questions and select the best option among them) and principles based on the stage of the game you're in: for opening, develop your pieces as quickly as possible, for middle game, break down your opponent's defenses and for ending, reduce your opponent's king's legal
options to nothing while checking to make sure it isn't a stalemate or else find configurations that could most easily lead to stalemate if you are too much of an underdog to reasonably expect a win. 

Have you ever been in a situation where you're an underdog and you see a move that will guarantee a stalemate, but you haven't ruled out a win yet and have to decide between playing it safe and stalemating or going for the win, even though it will mean risking a loss?  I don't really have an example on hand, it's just an interesting choice to me
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: ak.yonathan on September 24, 2020, 12:21:43 PM
Can't remember ever being in such a situation but usually if my opponent offers a draw I'll take it unless my position is absolutely crushing.

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Title: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 12:42:21 PM
That's interesting.  I rarely get offered a draw unless it's clear we're in a definitely or likely "washing machine" situation (repeating the same moves over and over ad infinitum).   

I tend to disregard the point system, though I could see myself caring more about a rating if I was trying to earning money in tournaments or something.  At the moment, I play for the enjoyment of it, so there is less of a tendency to avoid the risk of a loss. 

That being said, the desire to minimize my loss is still strong, so I'm often consciously having to push myself to take more risks.  I think my threshold for deciding that a situation is not worth attempting a win is being pushed further and further out.
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Dexter on September 24, 2020, 12:47:25 PM
Welcome Valyza1. +1 for taking a steal man approach.

As an aside, your approach is very similar to Shakaib who we have not heard from in a while.
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 01:09:45 PM
Quote from: Dexter on September 24, 2020, 12:47:25 PM
Welcome Valyza1. +1 for taking a steal man approach.

As an aside, your approach is very similar to Shakaib who we have not heard from in a while.
I find that my frequency of posting in these kinds of forums is proportional to my need to express something I can't express or can rarely express outside of them.  Steal manning in particular can lead to a realization of how lacking in urgency the communication of some thoughts actually are.  I've never read any posts by Shakaib, but I am not surprised that a steal manner has probably taken time off to reflect or focus on more important things. 


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Inertialmass on September 24, 2020, 02:32:30 PM
Quotetake the steal man approach in the hopes that the best lights of various points of view

Quotea steal man approach


WTF?

Which man are all y'all christers gonna burgle? 

We're not supposed to debate theology in this board but I gotta take philosophical issue with advocating the theft of some inchoate "man," Val and Dexter.



Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:05:30 PM
Quote from: Inertialmass on September 24, 2020, 02:32:30 PM
Which man are all y'all christers gonna burgle?  .
Haha!  SteEl


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Inertialmass on September 24, 2020, 03:44:28 PM
As in, "I'm gonna take the Superman approach to Internet Forum interaction..." 

Never mind.  I thought maybe it was obscure christian code between you and Dexter, or maybe coded Aussie speak.  I'll stay out of this thread now.


Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: AgnosticDamien on September 24, 2020, 03:51:38 PM
 ||welcome||
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: maritime on September 27, 2020, 07:50:27 PM
Quote from: Valyza1 on September 24, 2020, 03:05:30 PM
Quote from: Inertialmass on September 24, 2020, 02:32:30 PM
Which man are all y'all christers gonna burgle?
Haha!  SteEl
Quote from: Inertialmass on September 24, 2020, 03:44:28 PM
As in, "I'm gonna take the Superman approach to Internet Forum interaction..."

Had to look up steel man (manning) approach. I've never read anything by Dennett.

https://conversion-rate-experts.com/steel-manning/ (https://conversion-rate-experts.com/steel-manning/)
QuoteUse the steel man technique to persuade people who disagree with you

To steel man is to create a version of your opponent's argument that's even stronger than their own.

If your visitors have objections, you need to present counter objections. However, it's not enough to present the counter objections straight.

The solution comes from two (similar) approaches:

Approach 1: Steel manning
The philosopher Daniel Dennett outlines an effective process for arguing with someone who has opposing views:

(1) Attempt to re-express the other person's position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that they say, "Thanks, I wish I'd thought of putting it that way."

(2) List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).

(3) Mention anything you have learned from your target.

(4) Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

The first step of Dennett's approach has been called steel manning. It's the opposite of strawmanning, in which you misrepresent the other person's position or argument so you can easily defeat it. In contrast to a strawman, a steel man is an improved form of the other person's views—one that's harder to defeat.

Approach 2: Feel–felt–found
Dennett's approach overlaps with the "feel–felt–found" technique that is taught in many customer-support call centers:

Demonstrate that you understand how the other person feels.
Then, describe how you (or someone else) once felt the same as the other person does.
Finally, describe how your mind (or someone else's) was changed, and what you instead found to be true.

How to apply the above approaches to conversion

The approaches above may sound subtle, but they are powerful.

In both of them, you don't just present your counterobjection straight. (You don't just say, "You're wrong. Here's the right answer.")

Instead, you first demonstrate that you understand the other person's objection, you demonstrate that it's valid, and then you explain why your counterobjection is a level of thinking deeper, not shallower, than the other person's. (You effectively say, "I understand what you think, and why, but if you think further...") This approach allows the other person to save face and not have to backtrack their thinking (which no one likes to do). At no point are they proven wrong; they just arrive at your verdict through extended thinking.

(Note that you'd get nowhere trying to strawman your visitors' views. Your visitors would simply think, "You don't understand me." Straw manning only works by misrepresenting a third party's position. You could, of course, do that with your competitor's arguments. But that's not defensible, and the best persuasion is defensible.)

So, if your visitors have objections, don't just contradict them. And certainly don't ignore them. Address the elephant in the room. Explain why their current thinking is valid. Empathize with why they were reasonable in arriving at those conclusions. And then show them the additional thinking that leads from their conclusions to yours.
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on October 01, 2020, 12:48:45 AM
Is there an official place to go on here to report a violation of forum etiquette?


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on October 01, 2020, 12:52:53 AM
dumb ass there is a link that is "report to moderator" on each post
but you are disabled and can't pay attention... what to do  ||thumbs||
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Valyza1 on October 01, 2020, 01:10:11 AM
Quote from: none on October 01, 2020, 12:52:53 AM
dumb ass there is a link that is "report to moderator" on each post
but you are disabled and can't pay attention... what to do  ||thumbs||
Well, I just reported two of your posts (including the one above) for instances of derogatory name calling.  I have never and would never resort to calling anyone names who is attempting to have a civil discussion and if this is the kind of behavior I can expect without any administrative repercussions, then I suppose this isn't the forum for me.  Maybe it's for the best.  No longer posting until admin has stepped in on this. 


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Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on October 01, 2020, 01:27:22 AM
I am admin
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: none on October 01, 2020, 01:31:45 AM
you want to win over a technicality
suck balls deep
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Case on October 01, 2020, 01:53:23 AM
Quote from: none on October 01, 2020, 01:27:22 AM
I am admin

Don't panic - he's not.
Title: Re: Hello and my, what an interesting forum title!
Post by: Mooby the Golden Sock on October 01, 2020, 12:31:17 PM
He's not. (https://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,12.0.html)