Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?

[Kiahanie]

••••
A&E were adults.  Smarter than you... or anyone else in here will ever be.
••••

Sounds extra-textual.

••••
If you warn your son... who let's say is 21yrs old... not to jump in a canoe 20feet towards the Niagara Falls and paddle towards it, tell me how you can stop them from reaping the free will consequence of their adult actions?
••••

I would jump in to save him or die trying.

I do not understand a parent even asking that. Quoting scripture at them as they go over the edge sounds neither Christian nor parental.

I am pretty sure I would not throw him out of the house.

[Maria-Juana]

So, what happened after this?

^...13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

It's like a soap opera.

[8livesleft]

I even suggested that the answers a person gives, is often beneficial to them

In what way did AE benefit from this line of questioning, or from this entire exercise for that matter?

Where are those stated different things you brought up?

Humans aren't omniscient creators for one thing.

Good parents and teachers put in more work to understand and prepare the kids for the world because too many things are unknown.

An omniscient creator god knows all of it's creations tendencies and abilities and knows all the dangers and pitfalls of the environment it created. Free-will is not a factor for such an entity.

If you see a sign that posts a speed limit or a stop sign... you don't ignore the signs just because you might not understand the reason for those signs in that particular place. You obey the signs. Even if you don't know the reasoning that was behind for the city erecting a particular speed limit or stop sign.

Wrong. You follow those signs because you have seen what happens when you don't based on your own experiences growing up and the examples of others.

Again, AE had no such examples and experiences for death AND all the other punishments their god failed to warn them about.

Second, god allowed another entity to tell them the opposite thing and failed to warn them about that as well. God failed to tell them not to listen to others and especially those who would do harm - like any GOOD parent would.

What does that matter?  They were adults.

Wrong, they were only adults in appearance, not in mind. They were literally made that way without the benefit of any training or preparation whatsoever - like how any normal human would have.

Because they weren't taught or prepared for the possibility of there being another entity there out to cause trouble, they could not determine trick from truth.

They know right from wrong

No. They weren't told that it was wrong to listen to the serpent. They weren't told that the serpent would only cause them harm.

then why on earth would they reject God and listen to some outside foreigner who is trying to turn them away from the God that they have a familial relationship with and who never has steered them wrong before?

Simple

Their interactions with god taught them that it's fine to trust others because so far, talking to another has only led to good. They were conditioned to thinking that they can trust others.

How can they... being adults who were smarter than you.

Present your evidence for making this claim.

It's like a parent telling a kid to not run across the street... or not to steal something... or not to climb a fence... or not to cross the lawn of some neighbors... or not go down a path... or not to go pet a certain dog in the neighborhood... or whatever... and yet the kid does it anyway and then when they get hurt... maybe even being maimed for life... they complain that they weren't told all the possible consequences that could happen... and so they went ahead and did wrong anyway.

Most every parent knows by heart - when a child decides to do something you tell them not to do, it's because they want to satisfy their curiosity or because they think it's fun. As a parent, you learn to not get all butthurt when your kid doesn't follow. Instead, you look at the motivation, not the act itself.

Not knowing what the consequences might be for deliberately doing wrong or for ignoring a warning... doesn't excuse the wrong.  Can't you see that?

Again, they did not know it was wrong to listen to the serpent. They weren't told about the serpent at all.

They were deprived of this information by their god.

How does warning an adult to not do something, is making sure they fail?

By withholding vital information about the thing you're warning them against while at the same time allow another to completely undermine your warning.

That is why I was showing how it is fruitless to try and teach the kid...

   Not in my experience. When a young kid makes a mistake, it's usually on the parent.

If a child grows up without guidance then any further advice or warning will be too little too late then the scenario you presented would be more likely.

[8livesleft]

••••

••••
Since the country was occupied by Jews only, with some sparse left over Canaanite 'slaves' the story can't be a real historical reflection of events.

That is what happens when you take scriptures historically. There is extremely poor evidence of a violent takeover of Canaan. Lots of pig bones are evidence of a large non-Jewish population. There is no evidence of a dramatic transition to Hebrew practices, nor of a Canaanite genocide.

I recall reading somewhere that Canaan was just a shadow of it's former self by the time the jews attacked. 

[none]

A&E were adults.  Smarter than you... or anyone else in here will ever be.

Really ?
Adam tries to shift the blame on Eve...Eve tries to blame the snake.
¹² And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

That is what children do, they cannot really take responsibility, because that is something we have to learn.
An adult with good intentions, takes the full blame for his/her wrongdoings and doesn't necessarily needs to mention who was even more guilty.

Francis you are making stuff up, it's clear that Adam and Eve are not full grown adults with proper awareness and a decent self reflection.
How can they be smarter than any of us, while the story clearly shows us they are not.

it seems some use this as a paradigm of their own behavior and without the insight you just provided
sometimes it never leaves sunday a grown well adjusted adult
stays a child with all the selfish connotations attached

[Kiahanie]

I even suggested that the answers a person gives, is often beneficial to them

In what way did AE benefit from this line of questioning, or from this entire exercise for that matter?
••••
If a child grows up without guidance then any further advice or warning will be too little too late then the scenario you presented would be more likely.

Sounds like you have raised a kid or two, 8lives.

[Kiahanie]

••••
The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating

I wish there was more of this here.
Someone should print a bible with this, and only this.


I'm not sure how thick the book would be if you take out the bad parts.

Yes. I would much rather be discussing the content of the Sermon on the Mount than debating whether it was one or two sermons on one or two mounts.

The importance of ancient writings is what the writings say about the people themselves. They were never intended to be "history" as we know it. Any alleged facts serve the story, and are relatively unimportant otherwise. The point of the stories are the stories themselves.

But the bad parts are part of the story, too.

[Francis]

.

[Francis]

This 3 part post is in response to 8livesleft's post #152... who was  responding to my post #143.  The reason why it is a multi post is because of context purposes. I'm leaving in all the interactions  found in Post #152 to supply context.  So my response... even if I did nothing else but just copy and paste the context found in post #152 only... my post would be at least as long as the original post #152. But then when you add my responses to the context from Post #152, then of course my post/responses becomes longer than  the original post #152


Hello 8livesleft, hope you and your family are doing well.

I even suggested that the answers a person gives, is often beneficial to them

In what way did AE benefit from this line of questioning, or from this entire exercise for that matter?

You forgot  the rest of the line.  Introspection.  Many people learn things about THEMSELVES upon introspection... and upon reflecting on their own actions... like motives, etc.

The point is, that since that is logically possible, then you can't summarily dismiss it.  That is how a false dilemma works.

Where are those stated different things you brought up?

Humans aren't omniscient creators for one thing.

I agree. In fact, I don't know of one human being who believes that humans are omniscient creators.

Good parents and teachers put in more work to understand and prepare the kids for the world because too many things are unknown.

Again, we all agree. Humans today have far  far far far more to teach and warn and preparation needed for safety and relationships and pitfalls, etc...  than an A&E needed... which had a far more simple and rural existence, etc.  First of all, they had God walking and talking with them... so any questions they had, they could ask an omnisicient God.  Who is far smarter and wiser and loving and kind than any human parent or authority could ever be.

There were no modern conveniences and inventions and societal structures that they needed to learn and be warned about... or by which they could get hurt by... and the numerous laws... etc... like traffic and electricity and saws and airplanes and cars and wars and muggings and crime... etc etc etc etc etc

The world today is far far different than when A&E existed (if they did exist).  And of course the "coup de grace" to your objection is that A&E had God as a constant companion and had direct contact with Him and could ask any questions they wanted.

So A&E had far far far less excuses for their outright disobedience and rebellion.  Even today, when a judge hears of kids who have grown up in the lap of luxury and wanting nothing and who were raised by good loving parents, and yet they deliberately do crime... they have absolutely no sympathy for those kids.

An omniscient creator god knows all of it's creations tendencies and abilities and knows all the dangers and pitfalls of the environment it created.

Yes... and free will is ESSENTIAL for true genuine pure love. It is a logical contradiction to say you can force someone to love you.  It's an oxymoron.

But with free will, comes a price tag or potential possibilities.  One is rejection and rebellion, etc.

But even then, I am positive that you would rather have free will to make choices than to be a robot with no choices.

And that is why God created humans with free will.

Free-will is not a factor for such an entity.

Then I respectfully suggest that you don't know what free will is.  We've had this discussion many times before... about whether God can know what a person will freely choose to do... and yet not once have you ever shown how it is logically impossible.

If you see a sign that posts a speed limit or a stop sign... you don't ignore the signs just because you might not understand the reason for those signs in that particular place. You obey the signs. Even if you don't know the reasoning that was behind for the city erecting a particular speed limit or stop sign.

Wrong.

Not wrong

You follow those signs because you have seen what happens when you don't based on your own experiences growing up and the examples of others.

It was an analogy.  If you had no experience, but were told and instructed to do what the signs said... by your dad or driver instructor or whatever... you obey. You don't need to see what happens if you disobey... to understand what is wrong or right.  There are many things that we can't  experience directly or indirectly since we are not omnipotent or omniscient... and yet we still understand right and wrong and obedience.

Indeed... and whole point was that  A&E's lack of experience doesn't excuse their actions. God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway.

Again, AE had no such examples and experiences for death AND all the other punishments their god failed to warn them about.

They didn't need to.  They knew what right and wrong was and they knew what God said.

But once again, the "coup de grace" to your objection is that A&E had God as a constant companion and had direct contact with Him and could ask any questions they wanted.


END OF PART 1 OF 3.  PART 2 IS BELOW

[Francis]

PART 2 OF 3 OF RESPONSE #152

Second, god allowed another entity to tell them the opposite thing and failed to warn them about that as well.

They were warned.  The serpent even admitted it and had a conversation with EVE about that warning.  She freely chose and decided as an adult... to ignore the warning.

But once again, Eve could have asked God anything. A&E had direct contact and conversation with God.  She chose not to ask God.  And I think she chose to not ask God, because she KNEW what God's answer would be, but didn't want to listen to it.

A&E's lack of experience doesn't excuse their actions. God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway.

God failed to tell them not to listen to others and especially those who would do harm - like any GOOD parent would.

??? Eve knew what God said.  She is intelligent. She is not an air head.  She could have asked God if she was concerned or if she cared about God.  But she freely chose not to.  I think it is because she knew what God would say and she didn't want to listen to Him. She didn't want a "no" for an answer.  We see this in kids all the time. 

Secondly... don't you find it odd that Eve was not suprised or ignorant of this "being" (serpent or whatever it was)?  She is talking  to a "seprpent"?  I think the reason why she is not surprised by this being... and having a conversation with this being as if it was a normal thing... is that she probably had prior contact with it.

That would be a guess... but it is not an unreasonable one.

What does that matter?  They were adults.

Wrong

Not wrong

... they were only adults in appearance, not in mind.

Neither you nor I were there... so we only have the text to go by.

And the text clearly shows that they were intelligent.  Before the fall, they not only didn't have the degenerative effects of sin that clouds and corrodes and erodes, etc, our thinking today... but they were created in God's image... and they were created directly by God's hands... and didn't have any imperfections... mental or physical... or genetic deterioration  or DNA problems or diseases that people have today, etc

Secondly... by definition, a person of average intelligence has an IQ of 100.  Only a small fraction of people have a very low IQ (below 70) or a very high IQ (above 130).  So we have good reasonable rational reasons to believe that they were not only adults in appearance... but also in mind with at the very bare minimum.. an average IQ of 100.

Even the text of them conversing with God and with the serpent... shows that they had adult intelligence of at least an IQ of 100 so that they could communicate in a congent and understandable manner.

Thirdly, the text shows that Adam was smart enough to see through the Serpent's guile. He was not fooled and deceived. It requires an adult mind to not be fooled by a being who's very purpose in the garden was to use cunning and craftiness and shrewdness and ingenuity to deceive.

Indeed, the text says that the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

Fourthly, God would not have given A&E dominion over the earth to "rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground" (Genesis 1:26-28)... if they didn't have at least an average adult IQ. To do otherwise, puts all the animals in possible jeapordy.

Fourthly, we see later after the fall...  that Adam is a farmer.  I would like to see you tell farmers that they don't have adult minds.

Fifthly, A&E were created a little lower than angels.

etc etc etc

They were literally made that way without the benefit of any training or preparation whatsoever - like how any normal human would have.

They were not made with minds that were not adult... as I showed above.  If you disagree, then show me from the text that you are using, that God created A&E without an adult mind.

Because they weren't taught or prepared for the possibility of there being another entity there out to cause trouble, they could not determine trick from truth.

Adam was not decieved.

Secondly... as I said earlier... A&E's lack of experience doesn't excuse their actions. God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway.

Thirdly, they could have asked God if they weren't sure or didn't know.  They had direct contact with God and had conversations with Him.

Fourthly, Eve's familiarity with the Serpent... that she was not surprised by  the serpent and had a normal conversation with the serpent... suggests that she had earlier contact with the serpent.  And even then, like I said above, she could have asked God questions about the serpent. But chose not to.

They know right from wrong

No.

Yes

They weren't told that it was wrong to listen to the serpent.

There is nothing wrong about listening.  It's what you do that matters. You can't make any moral judgements or any decisions unless you listen.  Because if you don't listen, how do you know whether someone is lying or not, etc?

They weren't told that the serpent would only cause them harm.

? They were told what NOT to do.  And Eve proved they understood what God said not to do, when Eve tells the serpent what God said not to do.

God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway.  And even then, like I said above, she could have asked God questions about the serpent if she didn't know. But she chose not to ask God.  And I think  the reason she did not, was because she knew what God would say... and she didn't want to hear "no".

then why on earth would they reject God and listen to some outside foreigner who is trying to turn them away from the God that they have a familial relationship with and who never has steered them wrong before?

Simple

Their interactions with god taught them that it's fine to trust others because so far, talking to another has only led to good.

That is a non sequitur.  Their interations with God taught them that they can trust God. That's as far as you can logically deduce from their interactions with God. It doesn't logically follow that because they can trust God, then that has to mean and can only mean that they can trust ANY other person or being that they've never met.

Indeed, Adam was not deceived by this "outside foreigner".  And they were at least average in IQ.

So they freely chose to reject God and his warnings and his rules not because they didn't know right from wrong... but for other reasons.

They were conditioned to thinking that they can trust others.

Non sequitur. They were "conditioned" to trust God.  Not beings they've never met before. They had no excuses.  God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway. 

How can they... being adults who were smarter than you.

Present your evidence for making this claim.

I did above.

If you disagree that they were smarter than you...  then why do you keep sinning when you know the effects of sin, and yet you claim that they didn't?  What's your excuse?

Even then, if you still want to think that they were not smarter than you... then show why you don't believe they had at least an average adult IQ of 100? I presented a case that shows they had least an average adult IQ.

END OF PART2 OF 3.  PART 3 IS BELOW

[Francis]

PART 3 OF 3 OF RESPONSE #152

It's like a parent telling a kid to not run across the street... or not to steal something... or not to climb a fence... or not to cross the lawn of some neighbors... or not go down a path... or not to go pet a certain dog in the neighborhood... or whatever... and yet the kid does it anyway and then when they get hurt... maybe even being maimed for life... they complain that they weren't told all the possible consequences that could happen... and so they went ahead and did wrong anyway.

Most every parent knows by heart - when a child decides to do something you tell them not to do, it's because they want to satisfy their curiosity or because they think it's fun.

That's what happened with Adam and Eve.  But it's still wrong... and consequences still exist.

As a parent, you learn to not get all butthurt when your kid doesn't follow.

You still get hurt if you are a good parent.  If you didn't get hurt and disappointed, then you are not a good parent who cares and loves their children.

Instead, you look at the motivation, not the act itself.

And there was nothing in A&E's motivations which suggested that they were disobedient because of fun or curiosity.  Adam was not decieved, but if Eve was curious, she could have asked Adam or God.  But deliberately chose not to.

Secondly, doing something deliberately wrong has real world consequences.  And "fun or curiosity" are not mitigating factors for doing something deliberately wrong... for doing something you know is wrong.

Not knowing what the consequences might be for deliberately doing wrong or for ignoring a warning... doesn't excuse the wrong.  Can't you see that?

Again, they did not know it was wrong to listen to the serpent.

Again, it is not wrong to listen... because how can you know if you are being decieved if you don't listen and thus not know if deception exists?

They weren't told about the serpent at all.

We don't know if that is true.  Eve's familiarity with the serpent suggests that she might have had prior contact.

Secondly, even so... they knew right from wrong and they knew what God said... and Eve even discussed with the serpent what God said.

God gave a simple, straightforward instruction to Adam and Eve. The text shows that they both had the understanding and the ability to obey, but they disobeyed anyway.

Even then, if Eve had any doubts or wasn't sure, she could have asked God directly.  But chose not to.

They were deprived of this information by their god.

They werent' deprived of the information that it was wrong to eat the fruit.  And  they weren't deprived of daily direct contact and access with God so that they could ask God if they weren't sure or if they had any doubts or any questions.

How does warning an adult to not do something, is making sure they fail?

By withholding vital information about the thing you're warning them against while at the same time allow another to completely undermine your warning.

????

Nothing was deliberatly witheld. They knew right from wrong.

First of all... Adam was not decieved at all by the serpent at all.  He failed NOT because God witheld vital information... but for personal reasons... maybe because he loved Eve more than he loved God. I don't know because the text doesn't tell us.  Same with Eve.  She failed for acting on different impulses and desires and covetness, etc

The bottom line... the coup de grace... is that if they had ANY questions...  they could have asked, since they had DIRECT access to God himself.  So nothing was deliberatly witheld.

That is why I was showing how it is fruitless to try and teach the kid...

Not in my experience. When a young kid makes a mistake, it's usually on the parent.

You didn't finish my sentence.  I said it is fruituless to try and teach the kid WHILE he is already doing something wrong.  It's to late then.  The kid has maybe 10 seconds before he goes over Niagra falls in the hypothetical I was speaking of.  You're going to tell your kid that it is wrong to jump into the canoe?  He already jumped into the canoe?  Youre going to tell him of the dangers of jumping into the canoe 20 ft from Niagara Falls?  It's to late then, He already is in  the canoe and will go over the falls in a few seconds.

That is why I said it was fruitless at that time to try and teach the kid, when he is already in the canoe and will be going over the falls in a few seconds.

If a child grows up without guidance...

No guidance?  A&E knew it was wrong to eat the fruit.  Adam wasn't deceived by the serpent and if Eve had any doubts or questions, she could have asked Adam or ask God since she had direct access to both!  She didn't ask Adam or God because she DIDN'T WANT TO.  And I think it was because she knew what the answer would be and she didn't want to hear the word "no".

... then any further advice or warning will be too little too late then the scenario you presented would be more likely.

What I said was that any further advice or warning will be too little too late when the scenario... the disobedience... is done and acted on.

But as I said above, nothing was witheld from them.  They were both warned and even Adam was not decieved.  And then of course,  the bottom line is that they both had direct access to God and could have asked him anything.  As thinking adults who knew right from wrong, they deliberately and conciously chose not to.  That was their free will choice.

Blessings on you and your family.

[Kiahanie]

^^^^^ Francis, Thank you for not reposting 8lives' entire post.

[Maria-Juana]

••••
The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating

I wish there was more of this here.
Someone should print a bible with this, and only this.


I'm not sure how thick the book would be if you take out the bad parts.

Yes. I would much rather be discussing the content of the Sermon on the Mount than debating whether it was one or two sermons on one or two mounts.

The importance of ancient writings is what the writings say about the people themselves. They were never intended to be "history" as we know it. Any alleged facts serve the story, and are relatively unimportant otherwise. The point of the stories are the stories themselves.

But the bad parts are part of the story, too.

Yes, I don't even know the sermon or sermons on the Mount.


The bad parts, I don't know... don't give cruel people any more ideas on how to hurt people, especially if the instructions on how to were given by a god.

We could have a version that doesn't say the awful punishments god wanted us to impose on each other like stoning, burning, cutting hands, taking out eyes, mistreatment of a captive woman, slavery, etc.
—Useless information now because religious people have an AR15 now. What's a stone gonna do if god really wants you to punish someone?

[Kiahanie]

Good suggestions if one wants a collection of parables and sayings one might apply to one's life, like current pop psychology websites and authors. Nothing is said in the Bible that is not said elsewhere. Take what is relevant and leave the rest behind. Cafeteria style.

I think one's time would be better spent with The Compassionate Listening Project

[Maria-Juana]

Good suggestions if one wants a collection of parables and sayings one might apply to one's life, like current pop psychology websites and authors. Nothing is said in the Bible that is not said elsewhere. Take what is relevant and leave the rest behind. Cafeteria style.

I think one's time would be better spent with The Compassionate Listening Project

The Compassionate Listening Project
Ooh! Thank you for this. 
That's what we need. Solutions.

[Kiahanie]

"Solutions." Yup. Folks used to call me "the solution guy" not because I gave them solutions, but because I showed them how to find the solutions themselves. People are pretty smart when they have the right tools.

[dutchy]

I learned an important lesson in my religious life that i want to share.

If one genuinely has something to tell/write about God, his plan, His ways. His goals, His involvements, then one is not only completely honest at all times, but shares the whole story and leaves no stone unturned to be as crystal clear/transparent as possible.
That is what good parents do while raising their kids.
Sure some things, many things we really don't know and we should own that to the fullest extent in front of our readers/listeners.
Why, how, when our claims came about and what we don't know.
And the important details are NOT glossed over or ignored by using rhetoric or 'all purpose words' or some vague hints, smokescreens or riddles covered in clouds.

The bible provides incredible detail when the authors want to, but also go to any length to refuse telling about the most important details when they are so desperately needed.
By using vague 'all purpose words'' and pious rhetoric, the reader/listener has to fill in the important gaps all by himself or a religious authority who takes over from the individual.

The lesson i learned is that the more ''all purpose'' words are used , the more authoritarian rhetoric is used, the least trustworthy the claims are.
Revealing the truth should be a beautiful, detailed, personal and humble way of sharing something that is to special to be completely ignored.

[Kiahanie]

Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?

I doubt it. There are many more particles in the universe than neurons in the brain.

Looking at our own solar systems, there are more atoms and interactions between atoms than there are neurons and neuronal interactions. I suspect any supernova is more complicated than our brains in terms of interactions between parts.

[Kiahanie]

••••
The bible provides incredible detail when the authors want to, but also go to any length to refuse telling about the most important details when they are so desperately needed.

By using vague 'all purpose words'' and pious rhetoric, the reader/listener has to fill in the important gaps all by himself or a religious authority who takes over from the individual.
••••

Curious about what details you think are missing.

Factual details are not a major element of myth or of spiritual writings. The reason myths persist as more than footnotes is that there are gaps that the reader fills in with detail relevant to their life. Details that may have been relevant to the Yahwist patriarchs may no longer be relevant to Temple priests to Helinized Jews to Gospel writers.

The function of myth is severely impaired if it is too detailed.

[Kiahanie]

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating.

i think the teachings of jesus are profoundly wise as a model for how people should treat each other, whether the theology taught by jesus is true or not. following the teachings in the canonical new testament would result in a revolutionary world order of peace and goodwill, whether you believe in the kingdom of heaven or not.
••••

Yup. But I do not believe Jesus taught theology. He spoke very little of his god. He was in the Jewish tradition of teaching how to live, not what to think.

That came later.

[kevin]

he spoke a great deal about the kingdom of god, which is a conversation all by itself. but yes, there was precious little theology. that was not his concern, although it ws very much the concern of the later interpreters.

[Maria-Juana]

Good suggestions if one wants a collection of parables and sayings one might apply to one's life, like current pop psychology websites and authors. Nothing is said in the Bible that is not said elsewhere. Take what is relevant and leave the rest behind. Cafeteria style.

...

pop psychology websites

I just realized that there are many religious apps as well. I didn't know.


—God at your fingertips? 
Sure, why not?


...I mean, if Trump is selling the 'God Bless the USA' Bibles for $59.99...faith and spirituality can't get any cheaper than that.

[Kiahanie]

^^^^^ "Cheap" is the right world.

When you come up here to fix our van I will show you the Painted Hills. After a rain when out 6 year old son saw them the first time he said "If there was a god this is where he'd live."

Or maybe to Joshua Tree in Utah to sit among the ancients and watch the heavens wheel.

Or to Friends Meeting where we sit in listening mode. A lot of power in that kind of silence.

Nice things about spirituality, if one is into that sort of thing, is that it is free (not cheap) and can be tailored for a good fit.

[Maria-Juana]

^^^^^ "Cheap" is the right world.

When you come up here to fix our van I will show you the Painted Hills. After a rain when out 6 year old son saw them the first time he said "If there was a god this is where he'd live."

Or maybe to Joshua Tree in Utah to sit among the ancients and watch the heavens wheel.

Or to Friends Meeting where we sit in listening mode. A lot of power in that kind of silence.

Nice things about spirituality, if one is into that sort of thing, is that it is free (not cheap) and can be tailored for a good fit.

When you come up here to fix our van...

Thw whole thing sounds wonderful!
Thank you.

[Francis]

Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?

I don't know.  And to me, what would it matter either way?

One thing is for sure, the universe doesn't have consciousness and can't think or love or care or plan or do math or speculate or make predictions or have conversations or have relationships or be able to consciously create anything nor a host of other things that the human brain/spirit/consciousness can do.

And in my opinion, neither does the universe have any ultimate objective and intrinsic inherent moral value or worth... over and above any human being.

So without doing any deep thinking and research, it would appear to me at first blush that the human brain/spirit/consciousness is far more complex than the workings of the universe.

And I'm not the only one who thinks that might be true. For what it is worth... even the National Geographic... which is not a theistic or Christian organization... thinks so as well.  It had an article entitled: "Here's something to wrap your mind around: The human brain is more complex than any other known structure in the universe".

And in 2012, neuroscientist Christof Koch wrote in his book Consciousness: Confessions of a romantic reductionist that the human brain is "the most complex object in the known universe"

(interesting side note: In 2023, Koch lost a 25-year bet to philosopher David Chalmers. Koch bet that the neural underpinnings of consciousness will be well-understood by 2023, while Chalmers, bet the contrary. Upon losing the bet, Koch gifted Chalmers with a case of fine wine.)

And the National Institutes of Health (NIH) said that the brain is the most complex thing we have yet discovered in our universe.

And Psychology Today says that our brains are the most complex structures in the known universe.

But  then, you do find others that offer a different opinion.

who knows? 

blessings

[kevin]

to a worm, a speck of mud is tbe most complex thing in the known universe.

[Francis]

to a worm, a speck of mud is tbe most complex thing in the known universe.

Why would you think that worm can think in  that manner to begin with? We have no evidence that the worm can measure and do science or math and philosophy, etc, or have the ability to think outside the box and show behaviors that suggest problem-solving skills and creativity, etc

How would a worm know if a speck of mud was complex or not to begin with?  Is it even aware that it is a living creature?

Blessings

[kevin]

francis, why are you asking me questions?

[Francis]

francis, why are you asking me questions?

I thought you offered your observations on a public forum as an invitation for a response.

And  I thought your observation had no connection or relevancy with the OP or to my post.  My questions were an invitation for you to show I was wrong and that your observation was relevant to the OP and to my post.

Was I mistaken?  If I was, then I apologize.

blessings

[Kiahanie]

Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?
••••
So without doing any deep thinking and research, it would appear to me at first blush that the human brain/spirit/consciousness is far more complex than the workings of the universe.
••••

Thank you for your shallow thoughts and the unsupported speculations of other people.