Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?

[Kiahanie]

Now that we have that settled, why did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know, but no one questions the integrity of the cow.

Is this not a "religious" board?  Is the Bible not an integral part of religion?  Why do you act as if it shouldn't be a topic?

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating. The bible as history is entertainment for those who do not believe in your god or your bible.

No disrespect intended.

[dutchy]

Today i was reading the story of king Josia . During restorations of the temple a book of the law was found. To the great surprise of the king, his surroundings and the priests , it revealed all sorts of forgotten rituals and laws. Josia took all sorts of matters in hand to destroy a long list of idolatry including the lives of priests who practiced those forms of idolatry. Then this forgotten 'passover' feast was held.

The story makes one thing absolutely clear, that there was no sound oral tradition in those days at all. Since EVERYONE had forgotten about most Mosaic laws and rituals...including the temple priests.

That should tell anyone an important lesson.
Either there was a strong oral tradition without many mistakes passing it through the generations, or there were massive gaps / changes in oral tradition and Josia & co were only 'saved' , because they accidentally stumbled upon a lost book somewhere in the temple.
And it puts many ancient biblical stories , (including this story in Kings)...and from further back in a different perspective.
Who wrote those down ? And where did they 'hear' these stories ?
Did they all stumble on lost books somewhere ? Was this 'lost book' in Josia a real historical event ?

I think the answer is clear. Many Genesis - Kings have stories that have borrowed elements of stories found in other cultures like that of Persia during the Babylonian captivity, when most of the written OT content was created.
Sad but true !
Like the great prophet Jeremiah once said, the lying pen of scribes has no boundaries !

[Maria-Juana]

I only quoted dutchy. I related to being tricked as a child by an authority figure.

—But I still believe a god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

Would you mind explaining why you believe that?

Blessings

You can read my conversation with 8livesleft.

Also, because a good god, or a "good parent," would have removed the snake from the garden to prevent it from harming His children...if he trully loved them.
—That's why I believe that.

[kevin]

classical calvinists will indeed assert that god wanted adam to fail, and purposely set the trap in order to ensnare him.

as you pointed out, it is an inevitable consequence of the original sin logic trail.

there is no compassion in purposely throwing your child over a cliff so that you can look good as you save his life.

especially when you allow millions like him to suffer in order to look good saving a few.

I guess you will discuss the scriptures when it suits you, but not when it doesn't.

im not quoting a text wall, devoid of thought, jst. im perfectly happy to discuss doctrine and theology.

doctrine and theology is only partly based on scripture.  if it were otherwise you would believe the same things as the other people who use a bible similar to yours.

but maybe not.

[Maria-Juana]

Now that we have that settled, why did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know, but no one questions the integrity of the cow.

Is this not a "religious" board?  Is the Bible not an integral part of religion?  Why do you act as if it shouldn't be a topic?

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating. The bible as history is entertainment for those who do not believe in your god or your bible.

No disrespect intended.

The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating

I wish there was more of this here.
Someone should print a bible with this, and only this.


I'm not sure how thick the book would be if you take out the bad parts.

[dutchy]

Now that we have that settled, why did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know, but no one questions the integrity of the cow.

Is this not a "religious" board?  Is the Bible not an integral part of religion?  Why do you act as if it shouldn't be a topic?

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating. The bible as history is entertainment for those who do not believe in your god or your bible.

No disrespect intended.

The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating

I wish there was more of this here.
Someone should print a bible with this, and only this.


I'm not sure how thick the book would be if you take out the bad parts.

^^^^
Maybe written words are always undermining spiritual guidance, because written words can only reflect what we want to belief, not guide us to spiritual understanding.

[kevin]

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating.

i think the teachings of jesus are profoundly wise as a model for how people should treat each other, whether the theology taught by jesus is true or not. following the teachings in the canonical new testament would result in a revolutionary world order of peace and goodwill, whether you believe in the kingdom of heaven or not.

sadly, most christians these days pay less attention to the teachings of jesus on how to live as if the kingdom of god was actually present in the here and now, and instead treat it as a prize to be snatched at the end of a competition.

paul did jesus a great disservice by refocusing the goal of christianity in this way.

[8livesleft]

An omnisicient God who operates outside of time... would know.

So, I guess not this god:

⁸ Then they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening. The man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. ⁹ But the Lord God called to the man. He said to him, "Where are you?" ¹⁰ And the man said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden. I was afraid because I was without clothes. So I hid myself." ¹¹ The Lord God said, "Who told you that you were without clothes? Have you eaten from the tree of which I told you not to eat?" ¹² The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." ¹³ Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

How does this show that the God of Abraham didn't know?  Don't teachers and professors and parents, etc... ask questions of the child or students... even though they already know the answer?

Good parents and teachers do that to teach the child. Having the kids learn through experience is one way. The more common is to teach through words first before they do something potentially harmful. In both cases, the child benefits.

Teaching for their benefit is not what this god did.

[Maria-Juana]

Now that we have that settled, why did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know, but no one questions the integrity of the cow.

Is this not a "religious" board?  Is the Bible not an integral part of religion?  Why do you act as if it shouldn't be a topic?

No problem discussing the bible. The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating. The bible as history is entertainment for those who do not believe in your god or your bible.

No disrespect intended.

The bible as spiritual guidance is fascinating

I wish there was more of this here.
Someone should print a bible with this, and only this.


I'm not sure how thick the book would be if you take out the bad parts.

^^^^
Maybe written words are always undermining spiritual guidance, because written words can only reflect what we want to belief, not guide us to spiritual understanding.

Yes, I remember you saying something like this before.

...Sometimes i just want to play the piano, because i can translate my emotions in a way that language cannot.

I think language is a mere translation of a deeper language we cannot fully express in ordinary words...

Spirituality can be learned and expressed in many ways.
No god or Bible is necessary nor the only way.

[8livesleft]

The story makes one thing absolutely clear, that there was no sound oral tradition in those days at all. Since EVERYONE had forgotten about most Mosaic laws and rituals...including the temple priests.

There's a book by Yonatan Adler called The Origins of Judaism: An Archeological-Historical Reappraisal. According to the author, there was no evidence that the customs, rituals or even an understanding of the tenets of Judaism became widespread prior to just 100 years before Jesus. Instead, it seems most of the people were either following the religions of their captors or the older gods like Baal.

Many Genesis - Kings have stories that have borrowed elements of stories found in other cultures like that of Persia during the Babylonian captivity, when most of the written OT content was created.

Right, if we want to know where the story or idea came from, we just have to look at who their captors were. The captors already had well established religious concepts and philosophies when the jewish tribes were still nomadic.

Better to repurpose something that already works rather than make something from scratch.

[8livesleft]

I wanted a dime to buy a chocolate chip cookie when I was 10 years old. I was told, "no" by the adult. The next morning, there was a dime on the same spot we had the conversation, so took it. I thought, how nice, they changed their mind and left it there for me. It turns out it was a "test." Or as dutchy said, a trap.

I still remember it as a f**ked up way to teach a child a lesson, to mess with their mind in a cruel way. The same way that god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

I know of similar stories from others but in most cases, it is done as justification to punish. The person probably wanted to catch you in the act, to scold and punish.

The child learns, sure but only after being embarrassed, ashamed and hurt.

Here, god wanted to make it clear it's ALL their fault and made it clear that his actual punishment is going to be far worse than the warning he himself gave, therefore, he should be FEARED.

[Maria-Juana]

I wanted a dime to buy a chocolate chip cookie when I was 10 years old. I was told, "no" by the adult. The next morning, there was a dime on the same spot we had the conversation, so took it. I thought, how nice, they changed their mind and left it there for me. It turns out it was a "test." Or as dutchy said, a trap.

I still remember it as a f**ked up way to teach a child a lesson, to mess with their mind in a cruel way. The same way that god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

I know of similar stories from others but in most cases, it is done as justification to punish. The person probably wanted to catch you in the act, to scold and punish.

The child learns, sure but only after being embarrassed, ashamed and hurt.

Here, god wanted to make it clear it's ALL their fault and made it clear that his actual punishment is going to be far worse than the warning he himself gave, therefore, he should be FEARED.

...therefore, he should be FEARED.

Yes...

[none]

odie on the countryside....

[dutchy]

There's a book by Yonatan Adler called The Origins of Judaism: An Archeological-Historical Reappraisal. According to the author, there was no evidence that the customs, rituals or even an understanding of the tenets of Judaism became widespread prior to just 100 years before Jesus. Instead, it seems most of the people were either following the religions of their captors or the older gods like Baal.

Yes i am quite familiar with the various Jewish origins claims.
And yes the contradictions between what the OT claims and historical data ( which i find the least interesting of good arguments) are many.
But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

Right, if we want to know where the story or idea came from, we just have to look at who their captors were. The captors already had well established religious concepts and philosophies when the jewish tribes were still nomadic.

Better to repurpose something that already works rather than make something from scratch.

Indeed !

[8livesleft]

But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

[dutchy]

But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
The bible claims Israel serves God.....then bammmm they collectively decide Baal, the queen of heavens, Teraphim, heights, woods become immense populair in a very short period of time while Israel almost cleansed all Canaan from idols when they arrived .
And the survivors of 40 years in the dessert ONLY know the law of Moses, because the elderly who knew Egypt must die first before Israel can enter Canaan....according to scripture.
So we have a whole new generation of Israelites who only know Jahweh from youth imprinting in the dessert under the rulership of Moses and Aaron and they raise their kids in the only religion they really know.

Knowing how bizar the following claims are, the writers of Judges spend as little as much time explaining HOW, WHEN, BY WHOME, in what village did the collective idolatry take off etc. ?
The biblical writers only claim that Israel went astray from the Lord their God.

It's like claiming in modern times , Muslims started to do what was evil in the eyes of Allah and started worship mother Mary and had images of the cross in their houses and around their necks.
Then they started to celebrate eastern and Christmas and forgot about the Ramadan .
And they did so in all Islamic countries worldwide.
And it all displeased and angered Allah .

No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
While the biblical writers of judges-kings try very hard to sell a similar storyline.

[Francis]

An omnisicient God who operates outside of time... would know.

So, I guess not this god:

⁸ Then they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening. The man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. ⁹ But the Lord God called to the man. He said to him, "Where are you?" ¹⁰ And the man said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden. I was afraid because I was without clothes. So I hid myself." ¹¹ The Lord God said, "Who told you that you were without clothes? Have you eaten from the tree of which I told you not to eat?" ¹² The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." ¹³ Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

How does this show that the God of Abraham didn't know?  Don't teachers and professors and parents, etc... ask questions of the child or students... even though they already know the answer?

Good parents and teachers do that to teach the child. Having the kids learn through experience is one way. The more common is to teach through words first before they do something potentially harmful. In both cases, the child benefits.

Teaching for their benefit is not what this god did.

You're making the claim, so you have the burden of proof to support your last sentence.

A&E were adults.  Smarter than you... or anyone else in here will ever be.

Secondly, God warned them.  They knew what the warning was.  They even admitted that  they did.  What is there to teach when they already knew what the warning was and then deliberately and consciously  rejected the warning?

If you warn your son... who let's say is 21yrs old... not to jump in a canoe 20feet towards the Niagara Falls and paddle towards it, tell me how you can stop them from reaping the free will consequence of their adult actions?

What are you going  to teach  them as they are paddling toward the Niagara Falls that they already didn't know when they were warned of what would happen?

God didn't do anything against A&E, nor did He want them to fail.  They were adults who made free will choices after they were warned of  the consequences of their actions.

Even then, biblical scholars are not entirely sure that A&E existed.  There are interesting studies and scholarly work that is trying to address that question... through DNA models, etc.

Blessings

[8livesleft]

But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
The bible claims Israel serves God.....then bammmm they collectively decide Baal, the queen of heavens, Teraphim, heights, woods become immense populair in a very short period if time while Israel almost cleansed all Canaan from idols when they arrived .
And the survivors of 40 years in the dessert ONLY know the law of Moses, because the elderly who knew Egypt must die first before Israel can enter Canaan....according to scripture.
So we have a whole new generation of Israelites who only know Jahweh from youth imprinting in the dessert under the rulership of Moses and Aaron.

Knowing how bizar the following claims are, the writers of Judges spend as little as much time explaining HOW, WHEN, BY WHOME, in what village did the collective idolatry take off etc. ?
The biblical writers only claim that Israel went astray from the Lord their God.

It's like claiming in modern times , Muslims started to do what was evil in the eyes of Allah and started worship mother Mary and had images of the cross in their houses and around their necks.
Then they started to celebrate eastern and Christmas and forgot about the Ramadan .
And they did so in all Islamic countries worldwide.
And it all displeased and angered Allah .

No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
While the biblical writers of judges-kings try very hard to sell a similar storyline.

Judges is supposed to span 400 years and the jews likely intermingled. So, it doesn't surprise me that combo-worship exists especially since these other gods have been around as long or longer than yahweh in the region and they had their own established temples and customs already while the jews were still wandering around in the desert.

Their quick/recurring adaptation of other religions is also likely because of the similarities, given that their religion borrowed a lot of the old concepts and customs from these other faiths.

Kind of like how "christmas" was saturnalia and could be switched back since the people are doing the same thing anyway. Heck, a "santa" religion would be very easy to setup since he's probably just as familiar as jesus at this point - maybe moreso.

Point is, details don't really matter so long as we get that same warm fuzzy feeling from whatever it is we're praying to. Its all about how the thing is "packaged."

[dutchy]

But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
The bible claims Israel serves God.....then bammmm they collectively decide Baal, the queen of heavens, Teraphim, heights, woods become immense populair in a very short period if time while Israel almost cleansed all Canaan from idols when they arrived .
And the survivors of 40 years in the dessert ONLY know the law of Moses, because the elderly who knew Egypt must die first before Israel can enter Canaan....according to scripture.
So we have a whole new generation of Israelites who only know Jahweh from youth imprinting in the dessert under the rulership of Moses and Aaron.

Knowing how bizar the following claims are, the writers of Judges spend as little as much time explaining HOW, WHEN, BY WHOME, in what village did the collective idolatry take off etc. ?
The biblical writers only claim that Israel went astray from the Lord their God.

It's like claiming in modern times , Muslims started to do what was evil in the eyes of Allah and started worship mother Mary and had images of the cross in their houses and around their necks.
Then they started to celebrate eastern and Christmas and forgot about the Ramadan .
And they did so in all Islamic countries worldwide.
And it all displeased and angered Allah .

No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
While the biblical writers of judges-kings try very hard to sell a similar storyline.

Judges is supposed to span 400 years and the jews likely intermingled. So, it doesn't surprise me that combo-worship exists especially since these other gods have been around as long or longer than yahweh in the region and they had their own established temples and customs already while the jews were still wandering around in the desert.

Their quick/recurring adaptation of other religions is also likely because of the similarities, given that their religion borrowed a lot of the old concepts and customs from these other faiths.

Kind of like how "christmas" was saturnalia and could be switched back since the people are doing the same thing anyway. Heck, a "santa" religion would be very easy to setup since he's probably just as familiar as jesus at this point - maybe moreso.

Point is, details don't really matter so long as we get that same warm fuzzy feeling from whatever it is we're praying to. Its all about how the thing is "packaged."

They intermingled with whom ? From a biblical perspective that is......

600.000 + men without the women and children makes up for a huge population of millions comparable of the total inhabitants of ancient Egypt....if not more.
They take over Canaan , a relative small piece of land , and destroy almost every pagan city and their cults.
Only a few were left, but were treated as slaves. No chance whatsoever they could keep their idols in such a scenario. Remember a person was stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath.


When you read the book of Ruth, the Jews are almost scared of a single foreign Moabite . The guy first in line to marry her refuses to do so, because you never know with these foreign pagan girls, despite the fact that Ruth has an outstanding record of commitment towards Naomi and the Jewish faith.

Compare that story to those found in Judges, where out of nowhere the Jews started to massively worship idols .
Since the country was occupied by Jews only, with some sparse left over Canaanite 'slaves' the story can't be a real historical reflection of events.

[dutchy]

A&E were adults.  Smarter than you... or anyone else in here will ever be.

Really ?
Adam tries to shift the blame on Eve...Eve tries to blame the snake.
¹² And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

That is what children do, they cannot really take responsibility, because that is something we have to learn.
An adult with good intentions, takes the full blame for his/her wrongdoings and doesn't necessarily needs to mention who was even more guilty.

Francis you are making stuff up, it's clear that Adam and Eve are not full grown adults with proper awareness and a decent self reflection.
How can they be smarter than any of us, while the story clearly shows us they are not.

[8livesleft]

You're making the claim, so you have the burden of proof to support your last sentence.

Let's get something straight; YOU were the one who brought up the wrong analogy of comparing god's questioning to what parents and teachers do, not me.

And with regards to that, I already stated why they're different things.

Secondly, God warned them.  They knew what the warning was.

Oh, so you're saying Adam and Eve, the FIRST humans on earth "KNEW" what death was?

And again, were they warned that there would be a serpent? Were they warned that not only would they die, but that they'd be banished? Were they warned that they'd be living a life of hardship?

So, no. Their god didn't do squat except make sure they'd fail.

If you warn your son... who let's say is 21yrs old... not to jump in a canoe 20feet towards the Niagara Falls and paddle towards it, tell me how you can stop them from reaping the free will consequence of their adult actions?

What are you going  to teach  them as they are paddling toward the Niagara Falls that they already didn't know when they were warned of what would happen?

First of all, any good parent wouldn't just let their kids do that with zero training. Any good parent would know if there's truly an interest and seek the appropriate avenues for proper training as well as show them all the real examples of the consequences.

If and when the kid is capable and seems hell-bent to try then we'll have to support their decision and try to find ways to make it as safe as possible.

^That is the best we can do as parents.

Stark contrast to what bible god did.

God didn't do anything against A&E, nor did He want them to fail.  They were adults who made free will choices after they were warned of  the consequences of their actions.

Already answered

[8livesleft]

But the anthropological / sociological claims are actually stunningly weird in the bible when one takes the time to explore the written claims about the origins of Israel.
I personally found that the most intriguing and interesting aspect of the whole OT.

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
The bible claims Israel serves God.....then bammmm they collectively decide Baal, the queen of heavens, Teraphim, heights, woods become immense populair in a very short period if time while Israel almost cleansed all Canaan from idols when they arrived .
And the survivors of 40 years in the dessert ONLY know the law of Moses, because the elderly who knew Egypt must die first before Israel can enter Canaan....according to scripture.
So we have a whole new generation of Israelites who only know Jahweh from youth imprinting in the dessert under the rulership of Moses and Aaron.

Knowing how bizar the following claims are, the writers of Judges spend as little as much time explaining HOW, WHEN, BY WHOME, in what village did the collective idolatry take off etc. ?
The biblical writers only claim that Israel went astray from the Lord their God.

It's like claiming in modern times , Muslims started to do what was evil in the eyes of Allah and started worship mother Mary and had images of the cross in their houses and around their necks.
Then they started to celebrate eastern and Christmas and forgot about the Ramadan .
And they did so in all Islamic countries worldwide.
And it all displeased and angered Allah .

No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
While the biblical writers of judges-kings try very hard to sell a similar storyline.

Judges is supposed to span 400 years and the jews likely intermingled. So, it doesn't surprise me that combo-worship exists especially since these other gods have been around as long or longer than yahweh in the region and they had their own established temples and customs already while the jews were still wandering around in the desert.

Their quick/recurring adaptation of other religions is also likely because of the similarities, given that their religion borrowed a lot of the old concepts and customs from these other faiths.

Kind of like how "christmas" was saturnalia and could be switched back since the people are doing the same thing anyway. Heck, a "santa" religion would be very easy to setup since he's probably just as familiar as jesus at this point - maybe moreso.

Point is, details don't really matter so long as we get that same warm fuzzy feeling from whatever it is we're praying to. Its all about how the thing is "packaged."

They intermingled with whom ? From a biblical perspective that is......

600.000 + men without the women and children makes up for a huge population of millions comparable of the total inhabitants of ancient Egypt....if not more.
They take over Canaan , a relative small piece of land , and destroy almost every pagan city and their cults.
Only a few were left, but were treated as slaves. No chance whatsoever they could keep their idols in such a scenario. Remember a person was stoned to death for gathering wood on the Sabbath.


When you read the book of Ruth, the Jews are almost scared of a single foreign Moabite . The guy first in line to marry her refuses to do so, because you never know with these foreign pagan girls, despite the fact that Ruth has an outstanding record of commitment towards Naomi and the Jewish faith.

Compare that story to those found in Judges, where out of nowhere the Jews started to massively worship idols .
Since the country was occupied by Jews only, with some sparse left over Canaanite 'slaves' the story can't be a real historical reflection of events.

They weren't living in a bubble. Outside of wartime, they likely traded with neighbors and opened their borders as much as everyone else did.

And a population that big would've made it just like any big metropolis at that time. They weren't closed cities. They were likely big, bustling cities with all sorts of people coming and going.

All the big cities at that time also pretty much died out at their zenith unless they were subjugated - which is basically what happened to them as well.

By the way, Baal is supposed to be a god of fertility, rain. If the population was indeed that big then they'd likely experience famine due to the cyclical droughts. This might be what attracted them to Baal.

Same thing with fertility since infant mortality was about 25% back then. Gods that allowed more liberal fornication were popular because more sex = more pregnancy. Yahweh was not ok with this unless you were a king or something hehe

Just my theory anyway.

[dutchy]

^^^^^^
I think you gave your historical take on the origins of Israel.
That is of course partly guess work.
I addressed that the biblical take on the origins of Israel's history is contradictory in the writings itself.
From one hand we were told a massive group of millions of people got on the move to Canaan.
Got rid of almost every pagan impurity.

Then all of a sudden, almost out of nowhere a new Jewish society is portrait that serves many gods and has a multi culti worship society.

The only real explanation scripture gives us, is that Israel simply went astray from their original Mosaic teachings.
Without providing much, if any context about how that happened ?
Why was the first person who defiled his village with an idol not stoned to death by the village elders as prohibited by Mosaic law ?
How did such a person convince his fellow brethren that Idols were cool ?
The book of Ruth shows us the opposite , that everyone was suspicious even when a pious foreign Moabite enter their village.
How could others (in Judges) massively introduce idols without much objection from the elders ?

To me it's clear the biblical story lines are fictional, combined with some historical aspects.

[Francis]

The following is in response to 8livesleft's post #140.

8livesleft, I can detect from your responses that you are getting emotional. If this is a conversatin that you don't want to have, then we can stop now.

I'm not here to make enemies.  But if by chance, you somehow feel that we are enemies, then I will stop now because that is the last thing I want with anyone.

I'm just having a conversation.

You're making the claim, so you have the burden of proof to support your last sentence.

Let's get something straight; YOU were the one who brought up the wrong analogy of comparing god's questioning to what parents and teachers do, not me.

I think you are mistaken.  I said it was a good analogy to compare God's questioning with what parents and teachers and friends and families, etc, do.

I even suggested that the answers a person gives, is often beneficial to them, and not necessarily to the person asking the question because the answers a person gives can reveal a lot to that person themselves who is answering the question, rather than an answer a teacher or parent might give... especially on introspection.

Plus, asking questions is part of having a conversation.

And with regards to that, I already stated why they're different things.

I must have missed it.  Where are those stated different things you brought up?

Secondly, God warned them.  They knew what the warning was.

Oh, so you're saying Adam and Eve, the FIRST humans on earth "KNEW" what death was?

? They knew what was wrong and right. They knew what God told them not to do. They were adults.

If you see a sign that posts a speed limit or a stop sign... you don't ignore the signs just because you might not understand the reason for those signs in  that particular place.  You obey the signs.  Even if you don't know the reasoning that was behind for the city erecting a particular speed limit or stop sign.

There could be absolutely no cars anywhere you see... even for hundreds of yards in either direction... and yet you still stop at the stop sign.  Because you know right from wrong.

same with posted speed limits. There might not be any cars or  houses or human beings or anything on  the road or on the side of the road for hundreds of yards in either direction except for grass or dirt, and yet if the speed limit says 20 mph... you go that speed... even if it would be safe to go a bit faster.

Because you understand what "no" and "yes" means.

And again, were they warned that there would be a serpent?

What does that matter?  They were adults.  They know right from wrong.  They know what God said.  If they didn't know or understand what God said,  then they wouldn't have sinned.  God is not an insensitive bean counter. God knows our limitations.  He created us after all.

And so if they elected to listen to the serprent and reject God, then that is on them. They are adults with free will.

Secondly... think carefully what you are saying.  If they had regular communication with God... walking and talking with God... reasoning with God and asking God all kinds of questions... having a relationship with God... a God who had created them and blessed them... then why on earth would they reject God and listen to some outside foreigner who is trying to turn them away from the God that they have a familial relationship with and who never has steered them wrong before?

At the very least what A&E could have done... is go and ask God about what the serpent said if they had any doubts at all! They are adults.  Smarter than you.  But they didn't ask God anything about what the serpent says.

Why?  I'm guessing because they knew what God would say and so they chose... as adults...  to reject God and do what is wrong by listening to what the serpent said.

Were they warned that not only would they die, but that they'd be banished? Were they warned that they'd be living a life of hardship?

Do you not understand what right and wrong is?  How can they... being adults who were smarter than you... and yet not knowing what the ultimate consequences might be... be a mitagating factor at all in diminshing the consequences of disobedience? Wrong is wrong and right is right.


It's like a parent telling a kid to not run across the street... or not to steal something... or not to climb a fence... or not to cross the lawn of some neighbors... or not go down a path... or not to go pet a certain dog in the neighborhood... or whatever... and yet the kid does it anyway and then when they get hurt... maybe even being maimed for life... they complain that they weren't told all the possible consequences that could happen... and so they went ahead and did wrong anyway.

Not knowing what the consequences might be for deliberately doing wrong or for ignoring a warning... doesn't excuse the wrong.  Can't you see that?

So, no. Their god didn't do squat except make sure they'd fail.

That is a non sequitur in my opinion.  It doesn't logically follow that because you warn intelligent adults not to do something that is against a law... or because a parent warns their child not to disobey them (for their own good)... then that has to mean and can only mean that you or the parent are MAKING SURE the child or the other person will fail.

How does warning an adult to not do something, is making sure they fail?

If you warn your son... who let's say is 21yrs old... not to jump in a canoe 20feet towards the Niagara Falls and paddle towards it, tell me how you can stop them from reaping the free will consequence of their adult actions?
......
What are you going  to teach  them as they are paddling toward the Niagara Falls that they already didn't know when they were warned of what would happen?

First of all, any good parent wouldn't just let their kids do that with zero training.

The parent didn't.  The kid did it themselves.  That was the point. The parent said not to do it... and yet the kid rejected your warning and went and did it anyway.  That was the hypothetical I gave.

That is why I was showing how it is fruitless to try and teach the kid to not do something  that they have already done.  They heard your warning.  They are adults.  Intelligent.  And yet they deliberatly disobeyed you and jumped into the river and paddled towards Niagara Falls.

What are you going to teach them at that point? Nothing.

Any good parent would know if there's truly an interest and seek the appropriate avenues for proper training as well as show them all the real examples of the consequences.

??? They deliberately disobeyed you and jumped in with the canoe.  They knew better.  They  rejected you. They didn't  respect you.  They rebelled against you.  They cared more about themselves than they did about you. You had raised them, cared for  them, protected them, fed them, clothed them, tucked them into bed, told them bedtimes stories, bought them an iphone, took them to doctor's office when needed, bandaged their cuts and bruises,  helped them with their homework, stood up for them against bullies, comforted them when they cried, took them to movies and theme parks, loved on them, gave them countless hugs, etc etc... and yet they disobeyed you and took the canoe and jumped in against your warning and paddled towards Niagara Falls.

Disobedience has consequences.

If and when the kid is capable and seems hell-bent to try then we'll have to support their decision and try to find ways to make it as safe as possible.

Tell me when that occurs when  they are already in the river 20ft away from Niagra falls in a canoe and paddling toward it?  They are adults.  They freely chose to ignore your love...  to ignore your warnings... to ignore you as a parent...  to ignore your love for them... to ignore everything you did for them over the years.

^That is the best we can do as parents.

That is what the God of Abraham did.  He loved them. Cared for them. Gave them everything they needed.  He even provided Adam a companion in Eve.  He walked and talked with them on a regular basis as family in a relationship.  They could have asked God anything. 

But instead, they rejected Him and His love and chose as adults, to do what they wanted.

Stark contrast to what bible god did.

On the contrary.

God didn't do anything against A&E, nor did He want them to fail.  They were adults who made free will choices after they were warned of  the consequences of their actions.

Already answered

And I answered your "answers".  It doesn't appear to me that you carried your claim.

Blessings on you and your family.



.

[Kiahanie]

••••

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
••••
No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
••••

Neither should you. In general, ethnographic material speaks of a culture's current understanding of itself and is not an objective history.

The writings speak of the current culture of the writer, not of past history.  Ethnographic material uses the memes of the past to describe the perceived reality of the present. That provides the inertia for slow-changing cultures.

There are times when an event does cause radical cultural change. Wars, the Holocaust, Gaza. One problem is that those changes are responses to a relatively short-term context, and are then used to as reference long after the context has changed. Lots of inertia then, all looking backward.

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••
Since the country was occupied by Jews only, with some sparse left over Canaanite 'slaves' the story can't be a real historical reflection of events.

That is what happens when you take scriptures historically. There is extremely poor evidence of a violent takeover of Canaan. Lots of pig bones are evidence of a large non-Jewish population. There is no evidence of a dramatic transition to Hebrew practices, nor of a Canaanite genocide.

[dutchy]

••••

What do you find intriguing/interesting about the anthropological/sociological claims?

That the written origins about Israel and their lust for idols doesn't  match how religion is ingrained in cultures and only slowly changes over time.
••••
No one would take such a story remotely serious, because cultures don't abruptly change that way.
••••

Neither should you. In general, ethnographic material speaks of a culture's current understanding of itself and is not an objective history.

The writings speak of the current culture of the writer, not of past history.  Ethnographic material uses the memes of the past to describe the perceived reality of the present. That provides the inertia for slow-changing cultures.

There are times when an event does cause radical cultural change. Wars, the Holocaust, Gaza. One problem is that those changes are responses to a relatively short-term context, and are then used to as reference long after the context has changed. Lots of inertia then, all looking backward.

⁷And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel. ⁸And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. ⁹And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. ¹⁰And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: ¹²And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

I don't disagree what what you wrote i disagree with what the writers of Judges claim what the main reason for the collective idolatry was.
Namely that a new generation had not personally witnessed God's great works.

Nobody in all major faiths has seen any of the A miracles as claimed by their holy books.
And yet they don't massively change religions because of that.
The reason for not being a first hand witness yourself is weak.
In fact the opposite is true more often than not.
Over time small town leaders can become international spiritual hero's, because we can make them as big as possible in our imagination not obstructed by facts.

Furthermore Judges tell ( bold Red ) that Israel served God during the lives of the elders after Joshua who were witnesses of the miracles themselves.
A part of serving God is preparing the next generation and telling them all there is about God.
That is why religion and imprinting of young people is so successful over the centuries.

The reason that this next generation simply went astray, because they themselves were not first hand witnesses of God's miracles, is flawed.

[dutchy]

••••

••••
Since the country was occupied by Jews only, with some sparse left over Canaanite 'slaves' the story can't be a real historical reflection of events.

That is what happens when you take scriptures historically. There is extremely poor evidence of a violent takeover of Canaan. Lots of pig bones are evidence of a large non-Jewish population. There is no evidence of a dramatic transition to Hebrew practices, nor of a Canaanite genocide.y

Yes that's what i belief too !

[Kiahanie]

A mouse might see a "mousetrap" but a cat would see a MRE in the making.

Same thing. Different perceptions.

Don't know what you mean exactly.
••••

We were speaking of traps, and how the trap might be viewed from different perspectives. You were challenging MJ's and Schnozz' accounts of being trapped as children. I was pointing out that the perspective of a child is as real as the perspective of an adult.

Take the child's word for what they experienced. Do not try to force an adult's ossified perspective on them.

"...become as little children...."

[Kiahanie]

••••

The reason that this next generation simply went astray, because they themselves were not first hand witnesses of God's miracles, is flawed.

I do not see the point in discussing ethnographic material as though it is "factual" or historical. The point of such writings is to address the current culture, not to elucidate or describe past events, but to put them in a culturally current context.

It is useful when we can find evidence that suggests the beginning point of a story. For example, The Flood may well have been the cataclysmic or gradual flooding of the Black Sea basin.