Is basic human motivation more complex than the workings of the universe?

[8livesleft]

Adamu and Adam? Really!?
That's such a huge coincidence!

Here's another one...

Moses:

"2 Now a man of the tribe of Levi married a Levite woman, 2 and she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. When she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him for three months. 3 But when she could hide him no longer, she got a papyrus basket[a] for him and coated it with tar and pitch. Then she placed the child in it and put it among the reeds along the bank of the Nile." Exodus ch2

From at least 1000 years earlier...

"My high priestess mother conceived me, in secret she bore me. She set me in a basket of rushes, with bitumen she sealed my lid. She cast me into the river which rose over me. The river bore me up and carried me to Akki, the drawer of water. Akki, the drawer of water, took me as his son and reared me." - Legend of Sargon of Akkad

There's also these...

Noah vs Utnapishtim

Genesis vs Enuma Elish

10 commandments vs Egyptian Book of the Dead and Code of Hammurabi

Book of Job vs The Righteous Sufferer

Samson vs Hercules

Etc etc...

It's plagiarism by any modern standard.

[none]

well if adam and adamu are the same people what is his maiden name?

[8livesleft]

I dunno. But the Zoroastrian first man was named Gayomart

[none]

that's only 4000 years, what could they possibly know...

[Francis]

nature doesnt always cooperate. its like with bees. i just cught a swarm an hour ago. caught one the day before and anopther the day before that.

the first two i lost, because the bees looked over the empty beehive i had provided them and decided they could do better on their own. so they all walked out and flew away. you cant control them. all you can do is offer them opportunities to do things beneficial to you, and if they agree, you get along fine.

the swarm i caught today might have been the same, but befere i shook th ebees off in front of it i went to one of my established hives, shookl th ebees off a frame of brood and put that into the nuc box i was going to persuade the swarm to occupy.

and so far its worked. the young bees in a swarm wont leave open brood, and so they went into the nuc for good, and all the others followed them. ill see tomorrow whether its worked.

I don't think I could ever become a beekeeper.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe it was because of the residue of a childhood incident.  My dad loved  to take us camping and there was one time when my brothers and I were exploring the campgrounds and surrounding areas.  We were hiking in the woods with me in the lead... maybe about 40yrds ahead when all of a sudden, my little brother started screaming.  I turned around and could see him jumping and flailing about but couldn't see what was attacking him.  So when I ran to him I could immediately see it was bees and we got out of there fast.  We didn't know what  to do but just run.  I only got bit a couple of times, but he got bit a lot more.

But I will say this, I did once meet a beekeeper when I was in junior college... a guy who raised bees and sold honey for a living... and he was an incredibly intelligent and wise person.  So I've always had respect for beekeepers.

Blessings

[Francis]

An omnisicient God who operates outside of time... would know.

So, I guess not this god:

⁸ Then they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening. The man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. ⁹ But the Lord God called to the man. He said to him, "Where are you?" ¹⁰ And the man said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden. I was afraid because I was without clothes. So I hid myself." ¹¹ The Lord God said, "Who told you that you were without clothes? Have you eaten from the tree of which I told you not to eat?" ¹² The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." ¹³ Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

How does this show that the God of Abraham didn't know?  Don't teachers and professors and parents, etc... ask questions of the child or students... even though they already know the answer?  

blessings

[Francis]

^I want an orange one. We already have a white dog named Odie.

what kind of dog is it?

A type of terrier. Kinda small.

I love dogs  and I've had many kinds of dogs in throughout my life.  Labs... golden retrievers... bullmastiffs... mixed breeds... chiwawa... huskies... one was a mix between a wolf and a husky... a pug... English springer spaniel... collie... a beagle... German Shephard.  But never a small terrier.  I did have a medium sized dog that was part Terrier and a couple of other breeds mixed in, but I was never sure what they were.

At times, I would take like 6 dogs at a time on long walks everyday. For at least an hour walk with them.

But I don't have any dogs now.  

Blessings

[dutchy]

An omnisicient God who operates outside of time... would know.

So, I guess not this god:

⁸ Then they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening. The man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. ⁹ But the Lord God called to the man. He said to him, "Where are you?" ¹⁰ And the man said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden. I was afraid because I was without clothes. So I hid myself." ¹¹ The Lord God said, "Who told you that you were without clothes? Have you eaten from the tree of which I told you not to eat?" ¹² The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." ¹³ Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

How does this show that the God of Abraham didn't know?  Don't teachers and professors and parents, etc... ask questions of the child or students... even though they already know the answer? 

blessings

We had a teacher once in our conservative school who went away briefly and ordered our class not to talk when he was away to meet the school principal. When he returned after 10-15 minutes he opened a cabinet and he rewinded an analogue recorder and our recorded voices were heard. 
I think the whole class had to write 100 times 'i will not be a disobedient child in the future and will not talk in the absence of our teacher'. We were all late for dinner.
Our teacher set a trap that borders to the acts of a psychopath.

So if God talks like a parent/teacher, why did he set up a trap that we modern humans understand would be to easy to fall into ? 
Good parents and teachers never 'test' their children/pupils this way.
They test them like good parents/teachers do and don't set up a trap.

I don't really have to explain to you Francis how caring parents 'test' their children,....do I ?

[kevin]

I don't think I could ever become a beekeeper.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe it was because of the residue of a childhood incident.  My dad loved  to take us camping and there was one time when my brothers and I were exploring the campgrounds and surrounding areas.  We were hiking in the woods with me in the lead... maybe about 40yrds ahead when all of a sudden, my little brother started screaming.  I turned around and could see him jumping and flailing about but couldn't see what was attacking him.  So when I ran to him I could immediately see it was bees and we got out of there fast.  We didn't know what  to do but just run.  I only got bit a couple of times, but he got bit a lot more.

But I will say this, I did once meet a beekeeper when I was in junior college... a guy who raised bees and sold honey for a living... and he was an incredibly intelligent and wise person.  So I've always had respect for beekeepers.

Blessings

bees sting, sure. but horses bite off pieces of your face, and people let their kids ride them.


its a meditative practice, for themost part, unless youre doing them commercially. and so its also always a lesson that the real world is not under your control, no matter how much you think it is.

that swarm i caught was still here this morning, so its looking good. i wanted to open the hives up to check on the queens in the divides, but its raining. they dont like it when you do that, and i have no inclination to irritate them.

[Maria-Juana]

We had a teacher once in our conservative school who went away briefly and ordered our class not to talk when he was away to meet the school principal. When he returned after 10-15 minutes he opened a cabinet and he rewinded an analogue recorder and our recorded voices were heard.
I think the whole class had to write 100 times 'i will not be a disobedient child in the future and will not talk in the absence of our teacher'. We were all late for dinner.
Our teacher set a trap that borders to the acts of a psychopath.

So if God talks like a parent/teacher, why did he set up a trap that we modern humans understand would be to easy to fall into ?
Good parents and teachers never 'test' their children/pupils this way.
They test them like good parents/teachers do and don't set up a trap.

I don't really have to explain to you Francis how caring parents 'test' their children,....do I ?

Something like this happened to me as well.

I wanted a dime to buy a chocolate chip cookie when I was 10 years old. I was told, "no" by the adult. The next morning, there was a dime on the same spot we had the conversation, so took it. I thought, how nice, they changed their mind and left it there for me. It turns out it was a "test." Or as dutchy said, a trap.

I still remember it as a f**ked up way to teach a child a lesson, to mess with their mind in a cruel way. The same way that god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

—f**ker.


I was yelled at and punished.
Now, I would respond to suck trickery and abuse of power like this:

[Kiahanie]

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Francis]

didn't know?

An omnisicient God who operates outside of time... would know.

So, I guess not this god:

⁸ Then they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening. The man and his wife hid themselves from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. ⁹ But the Lord God called to the man. He said to him, "Where are you?" ¹⁰ And the man said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden. I was afraid because I was without clothes. So I hid myself." ¹¹ The Lord God said, "Who told you that you were without clothes? Have you eaten from the tree of which I told you not to eat?" ¹² The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate." ¹³ Then the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The snake fooled me, and I ate."

How does this show that the God of Abraham didn't know?  Don't teachers and professors and parents, etc... ask questions of the child or students... even though they already know the answer? 

blessings

We had a teacher once in our conservative school who went away briefly and ordered our class not to talk when he was away to meet the school principal. When he returned after 10-15 minutes he opened a cabinet and he rewinded an analogue recorder and our recorded voices were heard.
I think the whole class had to write 100 times 'i will not be a disobedient child in the future and will not talk in the absence of our teacher'. We were all late for dinner.
Our teacher set a trap that borders to the acts of a psychopath.

So if God talks like a parent/teacher, why did he set up a trap that we modern humans understand would be to easy to fall into ?
Good parents and teachers never 'test' their children/pupils this way.
They test them like good parents/teachers do and don't set up a trap.

I don't really have to explain to you Francis how caring parents 'test' their children,....do I ?

With utmost respect... nothing you said has anything to do with what I said.  I was never talking about setting traps. You... not me... used the word "trap".  So you are introducing words and concepts that has nothing  to do with anything I originally said.  I think you might be projecting your own personal experience onto something I said... which in effect unjustifiably changes what I had said.

You can ask questions, even if you know the answer... without the intent of setting a trap.   Your answers can often reveal something to you yourself... and so is instructive for you and for your benefit... and not for the benefit of the person asking a question that they may already know the answer to.

Oxford defines trap as "a situation in which people lie in wait to make a surprise attack".   So when a parent or a teacher or a friend, etc... asks questions that they may already know the answer to... it doesn't logically follow that the questions have to mean.. and can only mean.. .that the questions were designed as a trap to make a surprise attack.   You don't have  the ability to read the minds of other people.

So the original question I had asked still remains... how did the verses that 8livesleft pointed to... the verses from Genesis 3... show or prove that the God of Abraham didn't know what Adam and Eve had done?

Surely... your yourself don't believe that you can do something that God wouldn't know about. Correct?  Or do you?

Blessings and protection on you and your family

[Kiahanie]

A mouse might see a "mousetrap" but a cat would see a MRE in the making.

Same thing. Different perceptions.

[Francis]

We had a teacher once in our conservative school who went away briefly and ordered our class not to talk when he was away to meet the school principal. When he returned after 10-15 minutes he opened a cabinet and he rewinded an analogue recorder and our recorded voices were heard.
I think the whole class had to write 100 times 'i will not be a disobedient child in the future and will not talk in the absence of our teacher'. We were all late for dinner.
Our teacher set a trap that borders to the acts of a psychopath.

So if God talks like a parent/teacher, why did he set up a trap that we modern humans understand would be to easy to fall into ?
Good parents and teachers never 'test' their children/pupils this way.
They test them like good parents/teachers do and don't set up a trap.

I don't really have to explain to you Francis how caring parents 'test' their children,....do I ?

Something like this happened to me as well.

I wanted a dime to buy a chocolate chip cookie when I was 10 years old. I was told, "no" by the adult. The next morning, there was a dime on the same spot we had the conversation, so took it. I thought, how nice, they changed their mind and left it there for me. It turns out it was a "test." Or as dutchy said, a trap.

I still remember it as a f**ked up way to teach a child a lesson, to mess with their mind in a cruel way. The same way that god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

—f**ker.


I was yelled at and punished.
Now, I would respond to suck trickery and abuse of power like this:

With all due respect... I think your example is a false analogy.  The example would fit better in the A&E story if the adult put the dime out and told you... and pointed to  the dime and told you not to take the dime at anytime.

And yet you took the dime the next day anyway. 

How is that morally ok and not wrong for you to take the dime even though you were told in very specific language to not  take the dime to begin with?  The dime never moved. It was there the whole time.  You understood that you were not to take it.  The adult didn't speak to you in Martian language.  And yet you took it anyway.

blessings on you and your family

[Francis]

A mouse might see a "mousetrap" but a cat would see a MRE in the making.

Same thing. Different perceptions.

Don't know what you mean exactly.

But God... the God of Abraham... is speaking to A&E in their language.  Even their own responses show that they understood what the God of Abraham said to them.  

Blessings to you and your family

[Kiahanie]

Something like this happened to me as well.

I wanted a dime to buy a chocolate chip cookie when I was 10 years old. I was told, "no" by the adult. The next morning, there was a dime on the same spot we had the conversation, so took it. I thought, how nice, they changed their mind and left it there for me. It turns out it was a "test." Or as dutchy said, a trap.

I still remember it as a f**ked up way to teach a child a lesson, to mess with their mind in a cruel way. The same way that god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

—f**ker.


I was yelled at and punished.
Now, I would respond to suck trickery and abuse of power like this:

With all due respect... I think your example is a false analogy.
••••

I think it was a good analogy for MJ's point. Maybe not so good for you and your points, perhaps.

Kids know a trap when they get stuck in it. Take the kid's word for it.

[Maria-Juana]

With all due respect... I think your example is a false analogy.  ...

With all due respect... I think your example of constantly comparing gods to parents is a false analogy.

[Maria-Juana]

I think it was a good analogy for MJ's point. Maybe not so good for you and your points, perhaps.

Kids know a trap when they get stuck in it. Take the kid's word for it.

And I was responding to dutchy, not to Francis.

I know how difficult it is for Francis to hear the truth about his god's inhuman actions. I think it's bad when a human has to play —god's attorney.

[Francis]

With all due respect... I think your example is a false analogy.  ...

With all due respect... I think your example of constantly comparing gods to parents is a false analogy.

If you were not talking about A&E... but only talking about your example with no other context, then I agree with you and with Kiahanie.   But since I'm not able to read minds, then i can only go by what is being said in the thread.   8livesleft brought up A&E in Genesis.   Kiahanie quotes 8livesleft and then comments on my comment about 8livesleft's comment on Genesis.  And then you comment on what  Kiahanie said which was about what what I and 8livesleft had said about Genesis.

Since you didn't say that your comment was not a continuous part of what  Kiahanie and I and 8livesleft were  talking about... and yet you quoted  what Kiahanie said which was in response to what I and 8livesleft said... I assumed you were continuing the discussion.  And if that was the case, then  Kiahanie was correct to say that your analogy was not a good one in the context of what we were talking about originally.

So  i apologize for not knowing that you had shifted gears.

Blessings on you and your family.

[Francis]

I think it was a good analogy for MJ's point. Maybe not so good for you and your points, perhaps.

Kids know a trap when they get stuck in it. Take the kid's word for it.

And I was responding to dutchy, not to Francis.

I know how difficult it is for Francis to hear the truth about his god's inhuman actions. I think it's bad when a human has to play —god's attorney.

and you quoted Dutchy, who was talking about and responding to what I and 8livesleft said.  So once again, I assumed you were continuing the conversation.  I apologize for not realizing  that you had shifted gears.

blessings on you and your family

[Maria-Juana]

With all due respect... I think your example is a false analogy.  ...

With all due respect... I think your example of constantly comparing gods to parents is a false analogy.

If you were not talking about A&E... but only talking about your example with no other context, then I agree with you and with Kiahanie.  But since I'm not able to read minds, then i can only go by what is being said in the thread.  8livesleft brought up A&E in Genesis.  Kiahanie quotes 8livesleft and then comments on my comment about 8livesleft's comment on Genesis.  And then you comment on what  Kiahanie said which was about what what I and 8livesleft had said about Genesis.

Since you didn't say that your comment was not a continuous part of what  Kiahanie and I and 8livesleft were  talking about... and yet you quoted  what Kiahanie said which was in response to what I and 8livesleft said... I assumed you were continuing the discussion.  And if that was the case, then  Kiahanie was correct to say that your analogy was not a good one in the context of what we were talking about originally.

So  apologize for not knowing that you had shifted gears.

Blessings on you and your family.

I only quoted dutchy. I related to being tricked as a child by an authority figure.

—But I still believe a god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

[Maria-Juana]

I think it was a good analogy for MJ's point. Maybe not so good for you and your points, perhaps.

Kids know a trap when they get stuck in it. Take the kid's word for it.

And I was responding to dutchy, not to Francis.

I know how difficult it is for Francis to hear the truth about his god's inhuman actions. I think it's bad when a human has to play —god's attorney.

and you quoted Dutchy, who was talking about and responding to what I and 8livesleft said.  So once again, I assumed you were continuing the conversation.  I apologize for not realizing  that you had shifted gears.

blessings on you and your family

No worries.
Thank you for clarifying.

[Francis]

So with that in mind... and since we both believe that Jesus was an historical figure... then what do you think of his death on the cross?  Do you think Jesus died and was buried?  After all, we can't have a resurrection if Jesus didn't die.

Blessings

i have no idea. i have no better reason to believe in the accounts of the death and resurrection of jesus than i do of ^^^this mystical experience. they both appear to be equally magical and equally unsubstantiated. there are equally likely stories of the life of krsna, and of mohammed, and of the buddha. if we are basing truth on the existence of old stories, then they are all true.

But I'm only interested in the mundane, non-magical, non-miraculous historical facts and evidences.

The resurrection itself is the conclusion from the mundane, non-magical, non-miraculous historical facts and evidences. The resurrection is not being used to prove itself.  That would be begging the question.  Instead, the resurrection is the most reasonable inference to the best explanation for the facts/evidences I believe.

So in terms of the mundane non-magical, non-miraculous historical facts and evidences so far... we both agree that Jesus was an historical figure. And since you haven't said that Jesus didn't die, I'm going to assume from that that you do  believe that the historical figure Jesus did die and was buried.  After all... his existence and his death and burial are mundane non-magical, non-miraculous historical facts and evidences

So now... do you have any good reasons to believe that where Jesus was buried wouldn't have been known by his mother... and/or by his disciples... and/or by the authorities who put him to death... and/or by the religious leaders who hated Jesus and encouraged the Roman authorities to put Jesus to death (since the Jews themselves had no legal authority to do so)?

Blessings on you and your family

[Francis]

I only quoted dutchy. I related to being tricked as a child by an authority figure.

—But I still believe a god set it up for Adam and Eve to "fail."

Would you mind explaining why you believe that?

Blessings

[kevin]

So if God talks like a parent/teacher, why did he set up a trap that we modern humans understand would be to easy to fall into ?
Good parents and teachers never 'test' their children/pupils this way.
They test them like good parents/teachers do and don't set up a trap.

that is one of the best questions i have ever read on this forum.

[dutchy]

The problem is that most biblical writers don't come clean in a way they should have.
They give hints , but never go fully 'straight talking'.
'The lamb that was slain before the creation of our world', ...a hint of the divine foreknowledge of Jesus sacrifice, to make right what Adam and Eve did wrong !

Then, as a writer of holy scripture, one should completely own these kinds of 'hints'
God wanted Adam to bring creation under the curse, so Jesus could at the right time be introduced to heal this broken world.....broken because Adam and Eve messed up as planned.

If that is not 'setting a trap' , i don't know what is.
Even if you claim Adam and Eve's failure was embedded in a much broader context of salvation, Adam and Eve themselves were only doing what this pre wordily scenario required them to do.

But like some biblical writers, most Christians refuse to 'straight talk' when pressed for a sound explanation.

[kevin]

classical calvinists will indeed assert that god wanted adam to fail, and purposely set the trap in order to ensnare him.

as you pointed out, it is an inevitable consequence of the original sin logic trail.

there is no compassion in purposely throwing your child over a cliff so that you can look good as you save his life.

especially when you allow millions like him to suffer in order to look good saving a few.

[dutchy]

classical calvinists will indeed assert that god wanted adam to fail, and purposely set the trap in order to ensnare him.

as you pointed out, it is an inevitable consequence of the original sin logic trail.

there is no compassion in purposely throwing your child over a cliff so that you can look good as you save his life.

especially when you allow millions like him to suffer in order to look good saving a few.

Exactly ! And the whole 'Adam and Eve' story has elements of what we now call : 'Munchausen by proxy'.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Now that we have that settled, why did the cow jump over the moon?

I don't know, but no one questions the integrity of the cow.

Is this not a "religious" board?  Is the Bible not an integral part of religion?  Why do you act as if it shouldn't be a topic?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

classical calvinists will indeed assert that god wanted adam to fail, and purposely set the trap in order to ensnare him.

as you pointed out, it is an inevitable consequence of the original sin logic trail.

there is no compassion in purposely throwing your child over a cliff so that you can look good as you save his life.

especially when you allow millions like him to suffer in order to look good saving a few.

I guess you will discuss the scriptures when it suits you, but not when it doesn't.