Forgiveness and salvation from a biblical perspective

[none]

What was Paul high on when he had his NDE hallucination?
was it alcohol blindness?
if he was as drunk as I think he was maybe he DID need salvation, heck it almost killed him on a routine mission...walking

I experienced an exaltation once and i was neither drunk or on any form of drugs.
I recognize what Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12 about his exaltation .

I am all okay with your approach and funny remarks, but i hope you and others are as resilient when others mock things you consider 'above' fun and mockery.
The 'rules of the game' must be consistent for everyone involved.

I was being practical, honestly if you think soldiers haven't partaken in those types of behaviors for eons I don't think the problem is humor
I don't understand the relevance of the verse you mention
and Saul apparently didn't suffer an overwhelming good feeling but rather blindess and then a hallucination
I don't expect a soldier of that rank that he had to be stressed out in shock for an indefinite period of time, because he was a soldier
some people are different, if you are suggesting he suffered no hysteria then that to me is a testament to his character under pressure and further solidifies my belief that he was indeed qualified to lead those troops in greater quantity than he was selected to do for that particular objective.
yet having that hallucination is certainly not in character of the entirety of the troops that were with him or any that I am aware of.
it begs speculation that a soldier would march and suddenly have a hallucination and then lose standing within the Roman army simply because he did experience something totally rational and explainable by those qualified to evaluate his effectiveness as a commander.

[kevin]

Even if that was true... (you've not supplied any case for your position)... how does that have any rational bearing on how we are saved... on how salvation is obtained... which is the topic of this thread as I have continually stressed?

What doctrinal or theological points rely on the precise population of Israel at the time?  NONE!

if scripture is held to be suspect on any particular matter, then it is equally suspect on any other.

including the doctrine of salvation through jesus christ.

the passages supporting tbst have no better foundation than those providing details of the conquest of canaan.

[8livesleft]

if scripture is held to be suspect on any particular matter, then it is equally suspect on any other.

Apparently, narrative dictates which parts to take seriously...

So, it depends who you talk to - to decide which parts are brick and which are mortar....even if it may all just be sand. 

[kevin]

the parts held to be true are interpreted according to a particular theology.

if tbe theology differs, so do which parts being literal versus erroneous or symbolic.

if scripture was unequivocal, all interpretatiobs would be identical.

[8livesleft]

the parts held to be true are interpreted according to a particular theology.

if tbe theology differs, so do which parts being literal versus erroneous or symbolic.

if scripture was unequivocal, all interpretatiobs would be identical.

The bible is probably the 2nd least unequivocal document in existence...next only to the Voynich Manuscript and other documents which haven't been translated. 

[Francis]

Even if that was true... (you've not supplied any case for your position)... how does that have any rational bearing on how we are saved... on how salvation is obtained... which is the topic of this thread as I have continually stressed?

What doctrinal or theological points rely on the precise population of Israel at the time?  NONE!

if scripture is held to be suspect on any particular matter, then it is equally suspect on any other.

including the doctrine of salvation through jesus christ.

the passages supporting tbst have no better foundation than those providing details of the conquest of canaan.

Hey Kevin,  you've been fairly silent for awhile.  Have you been really busy at work, etc?  Don't be a stranger.

Anyway, as to your comment above, I think it is a non sequitur.  Because if I correctly  follow your reasoning to it's logical conclusion, then how can we have any confidence in any scientific and historical knowledge when we take into account by the very nature of that knowledge that all theories and "facts" are open for revision when new information surfaces?  What about incomplete knowledge?  What about incomplete scientific theories... or historical knowledge that we can be extremely confident in parts of, but other parts are still being investigated simply because we don't know everything and thus are always trying to fill in  the rest of the "puzzle"?  Isn't that what historians and scientists do?

What about TOE (Theory of everything)... one of the major unsolved problems in physics?  Does the fact that we can't find it or discover it and not able to put all the pieces together, mean that the individual parts that we do know about, are suspect... like the theory of relatively?

What about all the scientific theories that are being worked on  today?  Do none of them start with at least a basic foundation of confirmed knowledge as a building block?

And does the fact that evolution presently can't explain every detail about life, mean that all of the theory of evolution is suspect?

Look at history.  If we don't know everything about a historical figure... like say Socrates... or Lincoln... or an event like the civil war... does that mean all of the knowledge is suspect?

I don't know everything about you, so does that mean that I should doubt that you even exist?  Can't a person doubt parts of your life without having to doubt all of your life?

I respect your opinion, but I think you are committing a non sequitur.  I think you are kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

To me, it doesn't' logically follow that we have to know everything about a person or an event or a theory, etc... before we can be confident in the parts  that we do know... through investigation and facts and evidence, etc.

Blessings

[kevin]

hi francis. ive been busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest.

you dont have to know everything about everything.

but you do have to have a reason for asserting one paragraph is true and another false.

that reasoning appears to be missing in your arguments. why are you willing to disregard OT history, but not NT christology?

To me, it doesn't' logically follow that we have to know everything about a person or an event or a theory, etc... before we can be confident in the parts  that we do know... through investigation and facts and evidence, etc.

what investigation, facts, and evidence allow you to conclude that sin exists, that it was imputed to you, and that jesus was actually able to take on your sins and allow you remission from tbeir consequences?

[Maria-Juana]

^^^^^ Sorry IGI disappointed you, MJ. But this is a jewel:

—Come santos caga diablos.
Eat saints s**t devils.

It's OK.

I am very thankful to have met those in the bubble, the fabulous five or six here. There is a lot of love, compassion, and spirituality in there. Donde nadie se hace pendejo.

there is a bubble over here that contains 5,6 names that seems to be in agreement just about everything .

You have not escaped. You have been assimilated into the bubble.

[Maria-Juana]

...
I would be curious tho how it would be if we match the sects with similar god concepts in the different religions.

We can have a survey.

Choose the traits that describe your god:

A. Loving
B. Invisible
C. Answers prayers
D. Jealous
E. Vengeful
F. Mysterious ways
G. Temperamental
H. Makes satan seem like a cute puppy

Answer: a, b, c, f

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Hanuman

Something like that.

Excellent idea!
I dont know why no one has done it before.



How many gods accept:

A. Pot Smokers

B. Witches

C. Atheists

D. Idolaters 

E. Masturbators

F. Thugs

G. Wine lovers

H. Yoga Pants

I. Parole Violators


Answer: a, b, c, f, g and i

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Dionysus.
Bless his Plump Cabernet Sauvignon Grapes.

The god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

[dutchy]

^^^^^ Sorry IGI disappointed you, MJ. But this is a jewel:

—Come santos caga diablos.
Eat saints s**t devils.

It's OK.

I am very thankful to have met those in the bubble, the fabulous five or six here. There is a lot of love, compassion, and spirituality in there. Donde nadie se hace pendejo.

there is a bubble over here that contains 5,6 names that seems to be in agreement just about everything .

You have not escaped. You have been assimilated into the bubble.

Brilliant response from both of you 

[8livesleft]

...
I would be curious tho how it would be if we match the sects with similar god concepts in the different religions.

We can have a survey.

Choose the traits that describe your god:

A. Loving
B. Invisible
C. Answers prayers
D. Jealous
E. Vengeful
F. Mysterious ways
G. Temperamental
H. Makes satan seem like a cute puppy

Answer: a, b, c, f

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Hanuman

Something like that.

Excellent idea!
I dont know why no one has done it before.



How many gods accept:

A. Pot Smokers

B. Witches

C. Atheists

D. Idolaters

E. Masturbators

F. Thugs

G. Wine lovers

H. Yoga Pants

I. Parole Violators


Answer: a, b, c, f, g and i

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Dionysus.
Bless his Plump Cabernet Sauvignon Grapes.

The god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

Yes! I'd be like a permanent prospective member of the Dionysian Order. 

Prospective only because I'm trying to cut down, you see. Hehe

[Maria-Juana]

...
I would be curious tho how it would be if we match the sects with similar god concepts in the different religions.

We can have a survey.

Choose the traits that describe your god:

A. Loving
B. Invisible
C. Answers prayers
D. Jealous
E. Vengeful
F. Mysterious ways
G. Temperamental
H. Makes satan seem like a cute puppy

Answer: a, b, c, f

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Hanuman

Something like that.

Excellent idea!
I dont know why no one has done it before.



How many gods accept:

A. Pot Smokers

B. Witches

C. Atheists

D. Idolaters

E. Masturbators

F. Thugs

G. Wine lovers

H. Yoga Pants

I. Parole Violators


Answer: a, b, c, f, g and i

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Dionysus.
Bless his Plump Cabernet Sauvignon Grapes.

The god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

Yes! I'd be like a permanent prospective member of the Dionysian Order.

Prospective only because I'm trying to cut down, you see. Hehe

Ha!
Asking The god of wine-making to help you...

Your prayer:
Dear, God,


And one of his angels whispers in your ear...



Divine intervention.

[none]

Spanish is the only word I know in Spanish besides Spain

[8livesleft]

...
I would be curious tho how it would be if we match the sects with similar god concepts in the different religions.

We can have a survey.

Choose the traits that describe your god:

A. Loving
B. Invisible
C. Answers prayers
D. Jealous
E. Vengeful
F. Mysterious ways
G. Temperamental
H. Makes satan seem like a cute puppy

Answer: a, b, c, f

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Hanuman

Something like that.

Excellent idea!
I dont know why no one has done it before.



How many gods accept:

A. Pot Smokers

B. Witches

C. Atheists

D. Idolaters

E. Masturbators

F. Thugs

G. Wine lovers

H. Yoga Pants

I. Parole Violators


Answer: a, b, c, f, g and i

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Dionysus.
Bless his Plump Cabernet Sauvignon Grapes.

The god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

Yes! I'd be like a permanent prospective member of the Dionysian Order.

Prospective only because I'm trying to cut down, you see. Hehe

Ha!
Asking The god of wine-making to help you...

Your prayer:
Dear, God,


And one of his angels whispers in your ear...



Divine intervention.

Hahaha! I like those

I remember my dad had a plaque that went something like...

If you drink, you get drunk

If you get drunk, you fall asleep

If you're asleep, you don't sin

If you don't sin, you go to heaven

So, let's all drink and go to heaven

[Maria-Juana]

...
I would be curious tho how it would be if we match the sects with similar god concepts in the different religions.

We can have a survey.

Choose the traits that describe your god:

A. Loving
B. Invisible
C. Answers prayers
D. Jealous
E. Vengeful
F. Mysterious ways
G. Temperamental
H. Makes satan seem like a cute puppy

Answer: a, b, c, f

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Hanuman

Something like that.

Excellent idea!
I dont know why no one has done it before.



How many gods accept:

A. Pot Smokers

B. Witches

C. Atheists

D. Idolaters

E. Masturbators

F. Thugs

G. Wine lovers

H. Yoga Pants

I. Parole Violators


Answer: a, b, c, f, g and i

MATCH FOUND: Followers of Dionysus.
Bless his Plump Cabernet Sauvignon Grapes.

The god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre.

Yes! I'd be like a permanent prospective member of the Dionysian Order.

Prospective only because I'm trying to cut down, you see. Hehe

Ha!
Asking The god of wine-making to help you...

Your prayer:
Dear, God,


And one of his angels whispers in your ear...



Divine intervention.

Hahaha! I like those

I remember my dad had a plaque that went something like...

If you drink, you get drunk

If you get drunk, you fall asleep

If you're asleep, you don't sin

If you don't sin, you go to heaven

So, let's all drink and go to heaven

Let's all drink and go to heaven.

—That should be a worldwide religious agreement, a unifier. It shouldn't be unique to the permanent prospective members of the Dionysian Order.

[Maria-Juana]

Spanish is the only word I know in Spanish besides Spain

Spaniard?

[none]

Spanish is the only word I know in Spanish besides Spain

Spaniard?

somewhere south way south... of Warez somebody went north...

[Maria-Juana]

Spanish is the only word I know in Spanish besides Spain

Spaniard?

somewhere south way south... of Warez somebody went north...

Not sure what that means.


South of Juarez?

[none]

it doesn't matter much as they are dead but remembered in a way as a loner with kids..
I mean the northern component of that history was lost except for the fact they died doing what they had to,
yeah Warez is bad... whatever survives to travel out of there north is a changed person one way or another...

[none]

too many problems in colorado and the solution seems to be firearms

[Francis]

.

[Francis]

hi francis. ive been busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest.

you dont have to know everything about everything.

but you do have to have a reason for asserting one paragraph is true and another false.

that reasoning appears to be missing in your arguments. why are you willing to disregard OT history, but not NT christology?

To me, it doesn't' logically follow that we have to know everything about a person or an event or a theory, etc... before we can be confident in the parts  that we do know... through investigation and facts and evidence, etc.

what investigation, facts, and evidence allow you to conclude that sin exists, that it was imputed to you, and that jesus was actually able to take on your sins and allow you remission from tbeir consequences?

Hello Kevin,

hi francis. ive been busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest.

lol. Why would you want to go around kicking the gluteus maximus as a contest... whether you have one leg or two legs?

Anyway, on a serious note... I usually find that when a person is busy, it is a good sign.  So I'm  glad that you are busy... in a nice way.

you dont have to know everything about everything.

but you do have to have a reason for asserting one paragraph is true and another false.

Sure, just like we do with theories.  One part of a theory can be true while the rest of the theory, while built on the first part, might not have been completely proven as the first part has been.  That's why I gave the example of evolution.  Evolution can't explain everything... but it can explain some things... maybe even a lot of things.  But you don't throw out evolution just because it can't explain everything.

that reasoning appears to be missing in your arguments.

I'm sorry you think that. I happen to disagree with your assessment.  But just because I can disagree with you on some aspects of your beliefs, I don't then reject everything you believe.  I don't throw out  the baby with the bathwater.  Everything has to be judged on its own evidentiary merits.

why are you willing to disregard OT history, but not NT christology?

I am not willing to disregard ALL of OT history.  History is history.  facts are facts.  Evidence is evidence.  It's logically impossible for Contrary opinions and beliefs to be equally true in the same manner and time.

And as for NT Christology... who said I am not willing to suspend  a belief in some of it... or at least in my understanding of what I'm reading... which in itself might be an incomplete understanding of aspects of i t?  If you start with a false assumption... as you just did above... then it stands to reason that you would come  to wrong conclusions.

I have repeatedly said that I have changed my mind on some issues that are accepted by other Christians... after hours of study and prayer.   And I've also made an honest effort to delineate between primary and secondary issues.

Secondary issues on NT Christology are issues that Christians can agree to disagree on, and are secondary issues precisely because it has absolutely no bearing on... nor does it effect the prima facie issue of salvation.  Because again, what does it profit a person to gain the whole world, and yet lose his soul?

So a person can get all the secondary issues wrong, and yet still be saved if they get the prima facie issue correct.

God is not a bean counter, and neither should we be.

To me, it doesn't' logically follow that we have to know everything about a person or an event or a theory, etc... before we can be confident in the parts  that we do know... through investigation and facts and evidence, etc.

what investigation, facts, and evidence allow you to conclude that sin exists, that it was imputed to you, and that jesus was actually able to take on your sins and allow you remission from tbeir consequences?

The life, words, actions of Jesus... and His crucifixion, burial and resurrection. I've even tried to engage you on the issue of Jesus' resurrection... trying to asses which view was most reasonable and probable... but you appear to not want to talk about it.

Secondly, I think you your self is good circumstantial evidence that sin does exist... by your moral outrage on some issues... and also by your own admitted inability to explain your behavior and feelings and emotions on some of those issues... why you believe one way but act a contrary way. (as I understand the words you've written on this forum and which I've listed for you).

Blessings

[kevin]

hi francis.

you wrote a long post but thete was nothing in there about why you reject OT history but accept NT christoligy.

beautiful day here in ohio.

still busy

[Francis]

Dutchy... I've tried to be courteous towards you, even though we have different opinions.  I've tried to welcome you. I've tried to understand you.  I've tried to take into account that we might have a language barrier of some kind. I've tried to tell you how much I love you and your wife and family and the Dutch people.  I've tried to be civil.  I've tried to be honest and introspective and be inviting and encouraging, etc.  And yet you repay that with the accusation that I'm engaging in willful dishonesty. (found at the end of your post #477)

Just as Christ has forgiven you for your sins against Him and God... so I will likewise forgive you for your false accusations against me... because Christ is my model.

If you don't want to continue our discussions... then please let me know.  Be honest.  I don't want to waste your valuable time... time which you could spend with your wife and family.

But if you would be interested in continuing, then I would like an apology for making false accusations against me.  Not so much for me, but for your own spiritual well being  and love for Christ.  If you love Christ like I do and if He serves as model for you, then I think for His sake and His love for you, you would be willing to apologize for making false accusations against a Christ follower.

No matter what you decide... I wish nothing but much blessings and protection and wisdom and prosperity for you and your family

[Francis]

hi francis.

you wrote a long post but thete was nothing in there about why you reject OT history but accept NT christoligy.

beautiful day here in ohio.

still busy

That is because I did neither.  I never uncritically rejected all of OT history nor did I uncritically accepted all of NT Christology and I explained why.  I even went into your questions about sin.

Blessings. 

Never been to Ohio, but would like to visit one day

[Kiahanie]

^^^^^ The question was how do you decide between what to accept and what to reject.

Looking for some hermeneutics here.

[Francis]

^^^^^ The question was how do you decide between what to accept and what to reject.

Looking for some hermeneutics here.

The answer is the same with any theory.  Including the theory of evolution.  I even outlined a method in  relation to the question of sin asked by kevin

blessings

[dutchy]

Dutchy... I've tried to be courteous towards you, even though we have different opinions.  I've tried to welcome you. I've tried to understand you.  I've tried to take into account that we might have a language barrier of some kind. I've tried to tell you how much I love you and your wife and family and the Dutch people.  I've tried to be civil.  I've tried to be honest and introspective and be inviting and encouraging, etc.  And yet you repay that with the accusation that I'm engaging in willful dishonesty. (found at the end of your post #477)

Just as Christ has forgiven you for your sins against Him and God... so I will likewise forgive you for your false accusations against me... because Christ is my model.

If you don't want to continue our discussions... then please let me know.  Be honest.  I don't want to waste your valuable time... time which you could spend with your wife and family.

But if you would be interested in continuing, then I would like an apology for making false accusations against me.  Not so much for me, but for your own spiritual well being  and love for Christ.  If you love Christ like I do and if He serves as model for you, then I think for His sake and His love for you, you would be willing to apologize for making false accusations against a Christ follower.

No matter what you decide... I wish nothing but much blessings and protection and wisdom and prosperity for you and your family

No there won't be coming any apologies your way, because i don't know what ever good that would do ?
I accused you falsely ?
That's your opinion.

I accused you for being dishonest when you still claim that Paul in Romans and acts tells the same thing about God and how he treated the heathens in the past.
1 Paul in Romans says God did not overlook their willful disobedience against what was known to His creation about Him.
Therefor he handed them over to sin and lusts...they collectively experienced God's wrath.
2 Paul in acts says God did overlook their ignorance..He tolerated it over the centuries and gave them sun, rain and crops, until the heathens would also hear the gospel at the right time.

I will repeat it Francis, i think you are not only dishonest but also stubborn if you ask me to apologize for that.
Yes Paul could have changed his mind (new insight )about such matters over time, could use a different approach during his missions (more subtle), but you cannot claim these are the same underlying doctrines about the heathens and God's wrath.

I am not going to discuss such things with you when you are unwilling to see any biblical contradiction at all.
I don't pretend to know exactly why and how contradiction have entered scripture, but they are there.
Yes there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation why these contradictions are there.
But claiming certain things are NOT contradictions is something i find dishonest .

I hope one day you allow yourself some freedom of thought.
I know in Christ everything is possible, but you have to trust Him more than you trust men and their explanations and doctrines.

[Kiahanie]

^^^^^ The question was how do you decide between what to accept and what to reject.

Looking for some hermeneutics here.

The answer is the same with any theory.  Including the theory of evolution.  I even outlined a method in  relation to the question of sin asked by kevin
••••

In science, theories are validated by facts. In your usage, theories are validated by argument.

[Francis]

Dutchy... I've tried to be courteous towards you, even though we have different opinions.  I've tried to welcome you. I've tried to understand you.  I've tried to take into account that we might have a language barrier of some kind. I've tried to tell you how much I love you and your wife and family and the Dutch people.  I've tried to be civil.  I've tried to be honest and introspective and be inviting and encouraging, etc.  And yet you repay that with the accusation that I'm engaging in willful dishonesty. (found at the end of your post #477)

Just as Christ has forgiven you for your sins against Him and God... so I will likewise forgive you for your false accusations against me... because Christ is my model.

If you don't want to continue our discussions... then please let me know.  Be honest.  I don't want to waste your valuable time... time which you could spend with your wife and family.

But if you would be interested in continuing, then I would like an apology for making false accusations against me.  Not so much for me, but for your own spiritual well being  and love for Christ.  If you love Christ like I do and if He serves as model for you, then I think for His sake and His love for you, you would be willing to apologize for making false accusations against a Christ follower.

No matter what you decide... I wish nothing but much blessings and protection and wisdom and prosperity for you and your family

No there won't be coming any apologies your way, because i don't know what ever good that would do ?
I accused you falsely ?
That's your opinion.

I accused you for being dishonest when you still claim that Paul in Romans and acts tells the same thing about God and how he treated the heathens in the past.
1 Paul in Romans says God did not overlook their willful disobedience against what was known to His creation about Him.
Therefor he handed them over to sin and lusts...they collectively experienced God's wrath.
2 Paul in acts says God did overlook their ignorance..He tolerated it over the centuries and gave them sun, rain and crops, until the heathens would also hear the gospel at the right time.

I will repeat it Francis, i think you are not only dishonest but also stubborn if you ask me to apologize for that.
Yes Paul could have changed his mind (new insight )about such matters over time, could use a different approach during his missions (more subtle), but you cannot claim these are the same underlying doctrines about the heathens and God's wrath.

I am not going to discuss such things with you when you are unwilling to see any biblical contradiction at all.
I don't pretend to know exactly why and how contradiction have entered scripture, but they are there.
Yes there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation why these contradictions are there.
But claiming certain things are NOT contradictions is something i find dishonest .

I hope one day you allow yourself some freedom of thought.
I know in Christ everything is possible, but you have to trust Him more than you trust men and their explanations and doctrines.

I'm sorry you feel that way.  I do forgive you though.  And I love you and your family

btw... I never never never never never never said in all  the years i've been on this forum and in all the years that i've been a Christian... I never said that were NO biblical contradictions.   Of course there are.  Anyone who does any research on biblical data knows about the manuscript variants.  They are well known to any novice bible student.   Instead... what I 've always factually maintained was that NONE of those manuscript variants effects ANY of the prima facie issues... like salvation.   If you disagree, then you should have shown which ones did and we could have discussed those. But you didn't.  Instead you focused on variants that were secondary issues only and had no bearing on our salvation. 

This showed that you were  not reading or understanding what I actually said and wrote, and so you used false information about what I've written and believed, and used that to make the false accusation that I was being dishonest.

Anyway

God Bless you and your family. 

Take care my friend