Forgiveness and salvation from a biblical perspective

[Kiahanie]

I dunno but I was pretty disheartened by K's admission that his morals were no better than a pedo's.
••••

••••
Are we now saying the opinions of the insane are valid?

Because that's what people like Francis are proposing we do.
••••

People like Francis have a vested interest.

How does his belief factor into the opinions of the insane to the point that he feels the need to be their champion?
••••

He sees things that are not there, rationalizes them, and acts on them.  I actually have some sympathy with that.

[8livesleft]

I dunno but I was pretty disheartened by K's admission that his morals were no better than a pedo's.
••••

••••
Are we now saying the opinions of the insane are valid?

Because that's what people like Francis are proposing we do.
••••

People like Francis have a vested interest.

How does his belief factor into the opinions of the insane to the point that he feels the need to be their champion?
••••

He sees things that are not there, rationalizes them, and acts on them.  I actually have some sympathy with that.

I think we all develop our own systems based on patterns which only we see or understand but our options will naturally be limited by our conditioning and environment.

[none]

or he's just a d**k

[8livesleft]

or he's just a d**k

I've seen his argument made by others. 

So far, the response from the other side has basically been outrage and the point isn't addressed.

And they've all missed the boat in my opinion. The answer is staring them right in the face: only the truly sick or mentally ill think those abhorrent things are "good." 

To even bother discussing it is ridiculous. 

[none]

or he's just a d**k

I've seen his argument made by others.

So far, the response from the other side has basically been outrage and the point isn't addressed.

And they've all missed the boat in my opinion. The answer is staring them right in the face: only the truly sick or mentally ill think those abhorrent things are "good."

To even bother discussing it is ridiculous.

he uses it as a weapon, as a point of contention that he uses it elevated it to weapon.
maybe it was his intent from his initial onslaught of rhetoric despite not knowing whom it would affect and how.
it isn't ridiculous it is disgusting that he would use the innocence of a child to bludgeon his opponents of his own creation to slyly feign humility in sharing some type of self created religious spiritual necessity of awakening that he has somehow endured that we all must conform to because there is some mysterious and hidden logical connection between his own circumstances and ours
plain selfish to use children that way that we too may be deluded enough to think that having something as "the maximally greatest being" right behind our words because it somehow makes sense if we suspend our own dignity to justify his
fine great Francis believes in God. but can he explain it..no
 but baby rape is sure to elevate the conversation to a point where he uses it that he must not be in violation of some moral standard that he chooses to follow because it is easier that way than actually acknowledging there is a mystery that cannot be explained called existence only accepted, and even then there are questions, to some, in an academic sense and quiet possibly a practical sense.

[8livesleft]

or he's just a d**k

I've seen his argument made by others.

So far, the response from the other side has basically been outrage and the point isn't addressed.

And they've all missed the boat in my opinion. The answer is staring them right in the face: only the truly sick or mentally ill think those abhorrent things are "good."

To even bother discussing it is ridiculous.

he uses it as a weapon, as a point of contention that he uses it elevated it to weapon.
maybe it was his intent from his initial onslaught of rhetoric despite not knowing whom it would affect and how.
it isn't ridiculous it is disgusting that he would use the innocence of a child to bludgeon his opponents...

Yeah, I'm getting that weapon-vibe too. Getting the point across through bludgeoning.

Works for some, maybe.

[none]

in the long run I don't think it will, because it isn't going to solve the dissonance
if his goal is to solve that dissonance he was bestowed with I don't think this is the way to do it
subject everyone else to his internal conflict that didn't grace him with it
even if I believe in something besides myself that is somehow responsible for the reason why I am here doesn't mean I have to subscribe to "the maximally greatest being" although it does help my ego that the one thing that I believe in that justifies my existence is somehow the best every thing even if it isn't me of course that is what I think even if I somehow deviate from the gutteral inflections provided by biblical narrative somehow
I mean some find satisfaction in all kinds of variants of "the greatest maximal being"
I just happen to like me whether or not my eternal soul is somehow in jeopardy because I didn't say the right thing during prayer
getting along with other people seems easier when there is some type of tribal or group objective, it seems obvious
yet what that objective is seems such a minimally achievable achievement if all I have to do is not rape babies because that justifies the morals of objectivity? c'mon really??
  all I have to do is follow these rules that some guy presented on a piece of clay that somehow absolves the true nature of the people that preceded the author ( which couldn't be human) because those ancestors in entirety obviously didn't follow those rules only established them as a strict mandate that isn't adhered to anyways in real world situation because the narrative can be rewritten and sometimes believed and codified as actual history.

the story of the ten commandments origin is just as believable as a person is willing to believe.
isn't that some kind of rationalization without premise??
a "God forbid" fallacy??
maybe that should be a fallacy on it's own, believing otherwise unbelievable biblical narrative because "there is only one explanation" that makes sense if you believe???
sounds circular yet even that concept is to elusive to admit given "Francis case point"
I don't think anybody believes that the worst possible outcome of whatever is responsible for existence somehow justifies their own existence, that seems pretty self defeating but to hijack that to release such vitriolic necessity doesn't seem justified.

[8livesleft]

the story of the ten commandments origin is just as believable as a person is willing to believe.
isn't that some kind of rationalization without premise??
a "God forbid" fallacy??
maybe that should be a fallacy on it's own, believing otherwise unbelievable biblical narrative because "there is only one explanation" that makes sense if you believe???
sounds circular

Right

As origins go tho, we can see earlier versions of all those rules and principles in earlier religions all over the world. 

How "maximal" is this god of theirs if it has to copy from supposedly lesser gods?

[none]

the story of the ten commandments origin is just as believable as a person is willing to believe.
isn't that some kind of rationalization without premise??
a "God forbid" fallacy??
maybe that should be a fallacy on it's own, believing otherwise unbelievable biblical narrative because "there is only one explanation" that makes sense if you believe???
sounds circular

Right

As origins go tho, we can see earlier versions of all those rules and principles in earlier religions all over the world.

How "maximal" is this god of theirs if it has to copy from supposedly lesser gods?

doens't matter to them, that dissonance is buried in rhetoric as maybe it should be because the alternative is some kind of paradigm shift that might not work so well for those that have either mandated belief or shared it.
to admit it might be an embarrassment that is so frightening that it is fought against
behind closed doors the clergy must have discussed this in order to maintain some kind of status quo even though it may have been primitive in nature and updated with language

to hijack "there is no real reason to accept that existence is mandated" and turn it into "the word of God" has been effective to justify all kinds of injustice in which "the mystery" is embraced as written not by a person to justify the justice inherent in a agreed upon moral list because nobody wanted the alternative in that particular assembly

[8livesleft]

doens't matter to them, that dissonance is buried in rhetoric as maybe it should be because the alternative is some kind of paradigm shift that might not work so well for those that have either mandated belief or shared it.

I think the shift wouldn't be so difficult since these rules persist simply because it suits our nature as humans, not because god this or that said so.

What requires a major shift is the acceptance of the unnatural - since it needs copious amounts of faith belief to remind ourselves to "stay the course."

We don't need such reminders for things that come naturally.

[none]

doens't matter to them, that dissonance is buried in rhetoric as maybe it should be because the alternative is some kind of paradigm shift that might not work so well for those that have either mandated belief or shared it.

I think the shift wouldn't be so difficult since these rules persist simply because it suits our nature as humans, not because god this or that said so.

What requires a major shift is the acceptance of the unnatural - since it needs copious amounts of faith belief to remind ourselves to "stay the course."

We don't need such reminders for things that come naturally.

the shift is there because at some point belief is there, it is something that is celebrated for different reasons (sometimes too much).
to deny that aspect of human existence in the culture in which a person grows up isn't beneficial considering the primal nature of those invoking their belief.
to be ostracized as an adult is quiet different that being unaware as child and then subject to concentrations of "out group" think presented by those that combine under the official acceptance of a secular institution and unofficial group that seems as long lasting as a biblical awareness.
I don't see biblical awareness as the end goal of living but rather just another step in living in a human experience and that is a big point of contention for those that only live by that which they are sheltered into believing.

[8livesleft]

the shift is there because at some point belief is there

I think this happens when the real basis of some rule is forgotten and we're forced to invoke the supernatural which requires belief.

to deny that aspect of human existence in the culture in which a person grows up isn't beneficial considering the primal nature of those invoking their belief.

Yes, agreed. Our limitations require a kind of "glue" to make sense out of everything we don't understand - and this is where belief comes in, in my opinion.

And we have all these belief systems in place to suit near everyone's particular ways of thinking and if nothing fits, they simply have to create some new interpretation or system for that matter.

But since we're all the same, species-wise, then we'll basically just be seeing variations of the same old themes.

Which themes are invoked depends on the conditions.

Famine based systems won't work in bountiful conditions and vice versa.

The bible mashed everything together that's why there are so many contradictions.

[none]

this might be out of place in our conversation but...it should be obvious Rome is still there they just don't call them Romans anymore because of who collects the taxes and the tithes

[none]

the shift is there because at some point belief is there

I think this happens when the real basis of some rule is forgotten and we're forced to invoke the supernatural which requires belief.

To travel though life to the age of Moses at the time of the presentation of the tablets without mistakenly admitting some inaccurate trivial fact may have played a role in the notion of sanctity
we don't accuse kids of lying when they miss a question on a math exam
to suggest that he found the tablets is not what is presented rather the "hand of God" which could be as simple as a feeling that guided the tablets into existence by whomever wrote the text.
shorthand slang may have been interpreted as a "maximally great being" forging the tablets into a specific human readable form because the lack of detailed explanation eliminating it.
there are older texts and they all don't seem to be created from the "other side being" depending upon what texts and whom is asked. 

to deny that aspect of human existence in the culture in which a person grows up isn't beneficial considering the primal nature of those invoking their belief.

Yes, agreed. Our limitations require a kind of "glue" to make sense out of everything we don't understand - and this is where belief comes in, in my opinion.

And we have all these belief systems in place to suit near everyone's particular ways of thinking and if nothing fits, they simply have to create some new interpretation or system for that matter.

yes a cohesive settlement of understanding applied to something like the bible as decreed would be nice but here humans are still reading and splintering into sect understandings in a patterned distribution of individuality it seems

[8livesleft]

this might be out of place in our conversation but...it should be obvious Rome is still there they just don't call them Romans anymore because of who collects the taxes and the tithes

I understand they collect 10% from all the catholic churches...

In return, they do training, certification renewals and relic tours - which are MASSIVE fund raising crowd drawers.

I don't think the officers even know what the damn point is of amassing all that wealth. None of them can really enjoy it nowadays - like how the first popes and priests did.

[none]

if a person is born in Rome are they Roman??

[Maria-Juana]

I dunno but I was pretty disheartened by K's admission that his morals were no better than a pedo's.
••••

••••
Are we now saying the opinions of the insane are valid?

Because that's what people like Francis are proposing we do.
••••

People like Francis have a vested interest.

Nope, I have a better theory:
No es que uno de ellos ve otra cosa totalmente diferente,
 —Solo se hacen pendejos.

You explain it so clearly it all seems obvious now.

When the conversation started I thought, this is gonna be good!
Maybe he is gonna come up with some great points!
But the guy killed it with that comment.

You explain it so clearly it all seems obvious now.

Yes,
No es que uno de ellos ve otra cosa totalmente diferente,
—Solo se hacen pendejos.
To the point. Clear.  Obvious.
The way most things should be.

[Maria-Juana]

I dunno but I was pretty disheartened by K's admission that his morals were no better than a pedo's.
••••

••••
Are we now saying the opinions of the insane are valid?

Because that's what people like Francis are proposing we do.
••••

People like Francis have a vested interest.

Nope, I have a better theory:
No es que uno de ellos ve otra cosa totalmente diferente,
 —Solo se hacen pendejos.

It is silly. We're supposed to accept the opinions of the insane or maybe some weird cult as valid.

If that's the strongest argument of these theists then it's really not looking too good.

Nope, not looking good.  At all.

It is silly. We're supposed to accept the opinions of the insane or maybe some weird cult as valid.

Yep. They belong to the emperor has no clothes cult where todos se hacen pendejos.

[8livesleft]

to suggest that he found the tablets is not what is presented rather the "hand of God" which could be as simple as a feeling that guided the tablets into existence by whomever wrote the text.
shorthand slang may have been interpreted as a "maximally great being" forging the tablets into a specific human readable form because the lack of detailed explanation eliminating it.
there are older texts and they all don't seem to be created from the "other side being" depending upon what texts and whom is asked.

Comparing it to the older code of hammurabi, for example:

"If any one steal cattle or sheep, or an ass, or a pig or a goat, if it belong to a god or to the court, the thief shall pay thirtyfold therefor; if they belonged to a freed man of the king he shall pay tenfold; if the thief has nothing with which to pay he shall be put to death."

The regressed or dumbed-down bible version:

"Thou shalt not steal"

It's obvious which group was more sophisticated between the two and likely the jewish elders thought the other details were unnecessary or harder to explain/implement.

humans are still reading and splintering into sect understandings in a patterned distribution of individuality it seems

As is but natural. The bible is thousands of years old from a long gone era and unless you amend, you're forced to work with interpretations and narratives for your group's setup.

[none]

and shock!! Gods were people in that era in which the bible was written Lord only knows what Lord means... despite the vernacular

[Maria-Juana]

I just want to say something.

I came here hoping to be enlightened by the religious. I thought they must know something I don't. Perhaps all that bible wisdom taught them something...I thought I'd go see how god wants us to act through them, but all I get from the religious here is what Jesus said and how they interpret his words... and how they are used to divide and subtract.

This place should be called:
Bible study group, and other things.
I feel more spirituality coming from the atheists and the gnostics here than the religious ones.
—Strange. 

So far, I think Jstwebbrowsing is the only one who has semi-shown qualities that I had hoped to see in a religious person.

I have to say it.

[none]

ah he's a JW poor thing....

[none]

must be horrible to be dragged into a tomb on sundays... I feel for him...
at least when I go to church the wine bottles are broken so they can make a picture of mona lisa or whoever that dude hanging in the front of the church's mother is..

[8livesleft]

todos se hacen pendejos

I'm gonna add this to my list of translated vital life-saving Confucian sayings:

1. Vamos a comer
2. Donde esta el inidoro
3. Mata dos piedra con el mismo pajaro
4. Todos se hacen pendejos

Muchas gracias!

[Maria-Juana]

ah he's a JW poor thing....

I don't know anything about his beliefs, my opinion is based on our interactions and my observation of how he responds to others. 

[Maria-Juana]

todos se hacen pendejos

I'm gonna add this to my list of translated vital life-saving Confucian sayings:

1. Vamos a comer
2. Donde esta el inidoro
3. Mata dos piedra con el mismo pajaro
4. Todos se hacen pendejos

Muchas gracias!

Thank you. I needed that.




*pendejo.
play dumb.

[dutchy]

I just want to say something.

I came here hoping to be enlightened by the religious. I thought they must know something I don't. Perhaps all that bible wisdom taught them something...I thought I'd go see how god wants us to act through them, but all I get from the religious here is what Jesus said and how they interpret his words... and how they are used to divide and subtract.

This place should be called:
Bible study group, and other things.
I feel more spirituality coming from the atheists and the gnostics here than the religious ones.
—Strange. 

So far, I think Jstwebbrowsing is the only one who has semi-shown qualities that I had hoped to see in a religious person.

I have to say it.

I think no one has a truly objective compass inside . What one is looking for always partly reflects what's inside a person . We look partly for conformation.

Jstwebbrowsing to me is the most indoctrinated of all posters , because JW are without means to escape the indoctrination as long as they are part of this organization. it's how the watchtower operates on all levels.... But it says something/everything about MY perceptions and inner compass.
Furthermore , since I've been away for years , I feel there is a bubble over here that contains 5,6 names that seems to be in agreement just about everything . They hardly disagree , at least not noticeable to me .
This particular 'group' who I experience as a unity form a solid front together . I have learned the most of the confrontations I had and hard opinions over here in the past . They sure helped me to look differently at certain important matters . They helped me to develop critical thinking towards those things I was afraid of.

I prefer the rough edges of wwgha of the past to be honest . But all my opinion ... nothing more .

[Kiahanie]

••••

But since we're all the same, species-wise, then we'll basically just be seeing variations of the same old themes.

Which themes are invoked depends on the conditions.

Famine based systems won't work in bountiful conditions and vice versa.

The bible mashed everything together that's why there are so many contradictions.

Not the Bible's fault. The original text was dealing with the concrete conditions experienced by a specific people. Trying to interpret that ethnographic document as something meaningful for diverse peoples and conditions makes it look mashed up.

[Kiahanie]

••••
there are older texts and they all don't seem to be created from the "other side being" depending upon what texts and whom is asked.

Comparing it to the older code of hammurabi, for example:

"If any one steal cattle or sheep, or an ass, or a pig or a goat, if it belong to a god or to the court, the thief shall pay thirtyfold therefor; if they belonged to a freed man of the king he shall pay tenfold; if the thief has nothing with which to pay he shall be put to death."

The regressed or dumbed-down bible version:

"Thou shalt not steal"

It's obvious which group was more sophisticated between the two and likely the jewish elders thought the other details were unnecessary or harder to explain/implement.
••••

Hebrew elders filled in the details as their culture became more organized, settled and urban. It is called The Torah.

Hammurabi was dealing with a mostly settled and partly urbanized population and an administrative organization, hence the "sophistication".

The Ten were aimed at a nomadic tribal culture whose administrative arm consisted of the local patriarch and matriarch.

[Kiahanie]

••••

••••
 I have learned the most of the confrontations I had and hard opinions over here in the past . They sure helped me to look differently at certain important matters . They helped me to develop critical thinking towards those things I was afraid of.

I prefer the rough edges of wwgha of the past to be honest . But all my opinion ... nothing more .

OK. Happy to comply. Hard opinions and rough edges coming your way if you pursue my last posts to you.