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What is a Christian

Started by Jstwebbrowsing, September 17, 2022, 09:09:30 PM

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Shnozzola

#60
QuoteIn fact, it comes as something of a jolt to realize that Jesus is hardly ever seen doing the three helpful things we are most often called upon to do. He never donates money, gives advice (in the specific sense of "Here's what you ought to do"), or offers support (in the uncritical sense of "Everything you're doing is perfectly fine"). We see him reaching out to those at the margins of society to remind them that they too have a place in the kingdom of God, but we never see him sacrificing his time or his agenda on the altar of another person's loneliness. Nor do we see him investing much energy in helping people to get along, as that is generally understood. "Master, speak to my brother that he will divide the inheritance with me." To which Jesus replies, "Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" adding a few disparaging words on covetousness for good measure. Surely the most underrated answer to the currently popular question "What would Jesus do?" is "Nothing."

 I disagree with some of that. Of course we all know we can find Jesus words to insinuate whatever we want. I find conservative thought to mostly mimic, "God helps those that help themselves", which is just like atheist thought.
 
  "We see him reaching out to those at the margins of society to remind them that they too have a place in the kingdom of God"

 Yes, the important part.
 
 ".....but we never see him sacrificing his time or his agenda on the altar of another person's loneliness"
I disagree:
 John 8
 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
 But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
 11 "No one, sir," she said.
 "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

kevin

that is one of the disputed biblical passages.

it is not found in the earliest copies of john and the style is not consistent with them.
dare to know.

Shnozzola

Interesting.  A KJV Christian dilemma.  So many Christians view the Bible as written, inspired by god. So many don't.  Funny that the ones who don't, or at least don't with selected parts, assume they know.  Another debate.  Of course my opinion, but not as much fun if Maritime's man wins and it was a fake addition while the rest is "true".
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

Kiahanie

Quote from: Shnozzola on September 27, 2022, 10:47:42 PMQuote
 •••• I find conservative thought to mostly mimic, "God helps those that help themselves", which is just like atheist thought.
 •••

Ummmmmm..... As a collectivist atheist, I take exception to your characterization of atheist thought
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Shnozzola

Yeah, I should've phrased that differently. Not so much thought as outcome.  :)
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

8livesleft

#65
Quote from: Shnozzola on September 28, 2022, 12:14:41 AMInteresting.  A KJV Christian dilemma.  So many Christians view the Bible as written, inspired by god. So many don't.  Funny that the ones who don't, or at least don't with selected parts, assume they know.  Another debate.  Of course my opinion, but not as much fun if Maritime's man wins and it was a fake addition while the rest is "true".

So, there's KJV, NIV, the Ethiopian one, the dead sea scrolls...

Which one is supposed to be followed then?

Plus there's this whole translations thing...

Kiahanie

Quote from: Shnozzola on September 28, 2022, 12:58:41 AMYeah, I should've phrased that differently. Not so much thought as outcome.  :)

Great Apes have never been great individualists. Our cousins (and ourselves in small groups) tend to behave as though the tribe helps those who help the tribe.

Our alphas seem to want us to help out the tribe but do not reciprocate. Just read a description of the British budget saying it takes the trickle down theory to its logical conclusion: just give a lot of money to the very rich.

Not great ape behaviour at all.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

kevin

Quote from: 8livesleft on September 28, 2022, 01:50:22 AM
Quote from: Shnozzola on September 28, 2022, 12:14:41 AMInteresting.  A KJV Christian dilemma.  So many Christians view the Bible as written, inspired by god. So many don't.  Funny that the ones who don't, or at least don't with selected parts, assume they know.  Another debate.  Of course my opinion, but not as much fun if Maritime's man wins and it was a fake addition while the rest is "true".

So, there's KJV, NIV, the Ethiopian one, the dead sea scrolls...

Which one is supposed to be followed then?

Plus there's this whole translations thing...

the question is over manuscripts a thousand years older than the kjv.

all bibles are collections of older manuscripts. they are not all the same, and all have compkex histories
dare to know.

Mark

Quote from: maritime on September 27, 2022, 02:50:36 AMWhat is a Christian
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM...someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.

In the parable, it is The Good Samaritan who helped the one robbed and beaten and left for dead... who was the neighbor that had mercy (took pity).

So, love people that help you. It is strange that Jesus said the Samaritan was the neighbour.

I've always taken the parable as meaning everyone is your neighbour.
Mark's contribution to chess opening theory:
www.Marksopening.blogspot.com

maritime

No, not sure I would say love the people that help you.

Helping Samaritans wherever you find them was not the point of the parable.

The acts of the Samaritan are referred to as good; the Samaritan was recognized to be the one who was the neighbor to the one who fell into the hands of robbers (two others passed by, a priest and a Levite).

Helping those who fall into the hands of robbers may be the more important point, being that kind of neighbor. Hmm...

Kiahanie

I think the point was we are all neighbors to each other.

Jesus does not seem to have made a thing of reciprocity. We are supposed to treat others how we want to be treated, not as they treat us, not in expectation that they will respond similarly.

Jesus and his god were not as transactional as the Christian churches have made them seem.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: maritime on September 27, 2022, 02:50:36 AMWhat is a Christian
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM...someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.

In the parable, it is The Good Samaritan who helped the one robbed and beaten and left for dead... who was the neighbor that had mercy (took pity). Go and do likewise.

from Help: The Original Human Dilemma by G Keizer
QuoteIn fact, it comes as something of a jolt to realize that Jesus is hardly ever seen doing the three helpful things we are most often called upon to do. He never donates money, gives advice (in the specific sense of "Here's what you ought to do"), or offers support (in the uncritical sense of "Everything you're doing is perfectly fine"). We see him reaching out to those at the margins of society to remind them that they too have a place in the kingdom of God, but we never see him sacrificing his time or his agenda on the altar of another person's loneliness. Nor do we see him investing much energy in helping people to get along, as that is generally understood. "Master, speak to my brother that he will divide the inheritance with me." To which Jesus replies, "Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" adding a few disparaging words on covetousness for good measure. Surely the most underrated answer to the currently popular question "What would Jesus do?" is "Nothing."

Jesus had a purose to accomplish.  "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth." (Jn 18:37)

Jesus came to teach about the Kingdom of God.  The Kingdom of God is what solves mankind's problems, and even resurrects the dead.  Jesus did spend time healing the sick, and feeding the crowds.  But that was not his purpose for coming.  He did those things because he "felt compassion" for the crowds.

Quote"Master, speak to my brother that he will divide the inheritance with me." To which Jesus replies, "Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" adding a few disparaging words on covetousness for good measure. Surely the most underrated answer to the currently popular question "What would Jesus do?" is "Nothing."


Jesus did not show mercy to everyone.  Some he even publicly opposed.  Why do you suppose that is?

 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 18, 2022, 06:35:06 AM••••
If you wanted to identify a Christian solely through their actions, what would you expect to find?

Behavior that reflects the golden rule and the sermons on the mount, someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.
Anything else?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kiahanie

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 28, 2022, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 18, 2022, 06:35:06 AM••••
If you wanted to identify a Christian solely through their actions, what would you expect to find?

Behavior that reflects the golden rule and the sermons on the mount, someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.
Anything else?

For myself, that would pretty much cover it. I would be looking for behavior modelled on the values represented in the Sermons and Golden Rule.

There are some, I believe, but not as many as opinion polls seem to indicate.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

maritime

Be as the Samaritan not help the Samaritans.

And No, we're not all neighbors to each other.
Robbed, beaten and left for dead is not neighborly.
Certainly, you can be a neighbor if you so choose.
Or you can walk on by.

"What is written in the Law?" "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Expert in the law tried to make it about "Who is my neighbor?".
Parable illustrated and asked "Who was the neighbor?".

An unexpected neighbor.

Why ask the question 'What is a Christian'? Unless you think you have it pinned down without reservation and wish to convert the masses.

8livesleft

Quote from: Kiahanie on September 28, 2022, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 28, 2022, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 18, 2022, 06:35:06 AM••••
If you wanted to identify a Christian solely through their actions, what would you expect to find?

Behavior that reflects the golden rule and the sermons on the mount, someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.
Anything else?

For myself, that would pretty much cover it. I would be looking for behavior modelled on the values represented in the Sermons and Golden Rule.

There are some, I believe, but not as many as opinion polls seem to indicate.

Should we consider the golden rule as being specifically Christian? Doesn't it exist in even non-christian systems? Versions were even mentioned predating christianity. 

Kiahanie

Quote from: 8livesleft on September 29, 2022, 07:44:28 AM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 28, 2022, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 28, 2022, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 18, 2022, 06:35:06 AM••••
If you wanted to identify a Christian solely through their actions, what would you expect to find?

Behavior that reflects the golden rule and the sermons on the mount, someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.
Anything else?

For myself, that would pretty much cover it. I would be looking for behavior modelled on the values represented in the Sermons and Golden Rule.

There are some, I believe, but not as many as opinion polls seem to indicate.

Should we consider the golden rule as being specifically Christian? Doesn't it exist in even non-christian systems? Versions were even mentioned predating christianity.

Hillel the Elder and Jesus were certainly not the first to suggest that maxim. I would not quarrel with a Hindu who follows the golden rule and lives by the values on the Sermon on the Mount if they claimed to be a follower of Jesus (not merely a member of an organization.)

I will note again the confusion that arises when the  category "Christian" is conflated with "follower of Jesus." 

Paulianity is THE major Christian heresy, the original sin of the Jesus movement
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on September 29, 2022, 07:44:28 AM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 28, 2022, 11:45:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 28, 2022, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on September 26, 2022, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on September 18, 2022, 06:35:06 AM••••
If you wanted to identify a Christian solely through their actions, what would you expect to find?

Behavior that reflects the golden rule and the sermons on the mount, someone who helps Samaritans wherever they find them.
Anything else?

For myself, that would pretty much cover it. I would be looking for behavior modelled on the values represented in the Sermons and Golden Rule.
There are some, I believe, but not as many as opinion polls seem to indicate.

Should we consider the golden rule as being specifically Christian? Doesn't it exist in even non-christian systems? Versions were even mentioned predating christianity.
According to your Wiki link, the earliest written version of the so-called "positive form" of the Golden Rule is in the book of Leviticus.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Shnozzola

My wife just summed it up nicely.  "The reason Christianity is losing people and becoming irrelevant is because,  they love God and hate people".  🙂

A Christianity club that misses the point  and makes it just another religion.

Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

8livesleft

#79
Jst,

Leviticus is from the OT, so not christian and dates from 538-332 bc.

The Egyptian story: The Eloquent Peasant from (2040-1650 bc) says  "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." This is said to embody the "do ut des" principle.  https://dictionary.thelaw.com/do-ut-des/

The concept was mirrored in both negative and positive all over the world since then and likely even earlier.

I would think that it is a necessary principle for successful cultures. So most civilised societies in the past present or future would have it as a guiding principle for the establishment of their laws.

Mark

It's in Mark's moral laws:

2 Do to others as you would have them do to you, unless you have reason to think it's unlikely that they want to be treated in the same way as you do.

That was influenced by Jesus though.
Mark's contribution to chess opening theory:
www.Marksopening.blogspot.com

Dexter

I think what it all reduces to is that if a person believes themselves to be a christian, then they are a christian. It is not christian to not accept others as christian.
"Here is no water but only rock
Rock and no water and the sandy road"
― T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land

8livesleft

Quote from: Dexter on September 30, 2022, 12:34:41 PMI think what it all reduces to is that if a person believes themselves to be a christian, then they are a christian. It is not christian to not accept others as christian.

Agreed

I have heard quite a few christians saying that only some are "true" christians. Which, to me, implies that they themselves have a different standard and tend to place some on a higher plane than others. 

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on September 29, 2022, 11:27:01 PMJst,

Leviticus is from the OT, so not christian and dates from 538-332 bc.

The Egyptian story: The Eloquent Peasant from (2040-1650 bc) says  "Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do." This is said to embody the "do ut des" principle.  https://dictionary.thelaw.com/do-ut-des/

The concept was mirrored in both negative and positive all over the world since then and likely even earlier.

I would think that it is a necessary principle for successful cultures. So most civilised societies in the past present or future would have it as a guiding principle for the establishment of their laws.
Jesus never said anything about making others do anything.  So, it's simply not the same principle.  

I'm aware Leviticus predates Christianity.


Many things predate Christianity.  God predates Christianity.  Is the age of the Golden Rule important?

QuoteSo most civilised societies in the past present or future would have it as a guiding principle for the establishment of their laws.


I strongly disagree.  I don't know of any modern nation that is guided by it.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  

In my opinion, a Christian is a combination of the things you guys listed.  A Christian will perform some "rituals", like baptism.

A Christian will have a personal relationship God, except I believe the Bible and teachers are part of God's arrangement.

A Christian will follow the Golden Rule and the sermon on the Mount.  They will help the oppressed.  They will be the Good Neighbor.

I would also add they will be busy teaching the Good News of the Kingdom.

They would also have great love for one another and for Jehovah.
 
Next Question:  In your opinion, is there a difference between a faithful Christian and an unfaithful Christian?  If so, what?  Is an unfaithful Christian actually a Christian?  
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

QuoteMany things predate Christianity.  God predates Christianity.  Is the age of the Golden Rule important?


Yes because this thread is about what a christian is, so I don't believe it's fair to attribute a concept that clearly predates it. 

Quote I strongly disagree.  I don't know of any modern nation that is guided by it.   


The golden rule is based on reciprocity. Reciprocity is the basis of why we consider things fair. Look at most court cases worldwide, they're based on agreements and transactions, when one party feels that the other party didn't hold up their end of the bargain: in other words when there was no proper reciprocation. 

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on October 02, 2022, 12:40:38 AM
QuoteMany things predate Christianity.  God predates Christianity.  Is the age of the Golden Rule important?


Yes because this thread is about what a christian is, so I don't believe it's fair to attribute a concept that clearly predates it.

QuoteI strongly disagree.  I don't know of any modern nation that is guided by it. 


The golden rule is based on reciprocity. Reciprocity is the basis of why we consider things fair. Look at most court cases worldwide, they're based on agreements and transactions, when one party feels that the other party didn't hold up their end of the bargain: in other words when there was no proper reciprocation.
Who attributed it to Christianity?  I've already said what Christ taught is in Leviticus as "Love your neighbor as yourself".  There is not anything about expecting reciprocity there either.

Christians are instructed to not take each other to court.



 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

#87
Quote"Love your neighbor as yourself"


+ do unto others yada yada yada...are ALL in the same mold under the umbrella of reciprocity.

If you disagree, then that's fine.

QuoteChristians are instructed to not take each other to court.


And clearly, this lesson is lost to MOST christians.

This is, however, taught and even enforced among Masons.

Kiahanie

Quote from: 8livesleft on October 02, 2022, 06:18:59 AM
Quote"Love your neighbor as yourself"


+ do unto others yada yada yada...are ALL in the same mold under the umbrella of reciprocity.

If you disagree, then that's fine.

QuoteChristians are instructed to not take each other to court.


And clearly, this lesson is lost to MOST christians.

This is, however, taught and even enforced among Masons.


And Quakers.

Reciprocity is not treating others as I want to be treated. Reciprocity is expecting others to do the same. Jesus did not teach that expectation; he taught a one-way street.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

kevin

#89
when ohio yearly meeting gurneyite and ohio yearly meeting wilburite went to a state court in 1877 to resolve differences over ownership of the boarding school property, it was a major break from how quaker disagreements had always been processed.

a month or two after the wilburites lost control of the mount pleasant school to the gurneyites, it burned to the ground.

oops.

thirty three years later, the wilburite school in barnesville burned to the ground.

oops.

we have an issue with living what we profess. its been a quaker struggle for a long time.
dare to know.