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Which comes first: the Bible Study or the Baptism?

Started by eyeshaveit, August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AM

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eyeshaveit

A non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Kiahanie

#1
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.

You don't take them at their word? Why is that? They all claim to be different, even if the difference is based on secular values and not on a scriptural issue(s). 

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Kiahanie

#3
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.

You don't take them at their word? Why is that? They all claim to be different, even if the difference is based on secular values and not on a scriptural issue(s). 

I am certain many believers think their theological/christological differences make a difference.

For me, the differences are trivial, being variations on an imagined theme. They all sound pretty much alike to me. It is in their behavior that I see differences between Christians, and those behaviors seem to have little to do with -ologies.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.

You don't take them at their word? Why is that? They all claim to be different, even if the difference is based on secular values and not on a scriptural issue(s). 

I am certain believers think their theological/christological differences make a difference.

For me, the differences are trivial, being variations on an imagined theme. They all sound pretty much alike to me. It is in their behavior that I see differences between Christians, and those behaviors seem to have little to do with -ologies.

I would sooner believe that all dogs go to Heaven than to hear that all Quakers get their ticket punched for one of the twelve heavenly Pearl Gates. That is because dogs know that they are dogs and most happily so. Quakers don't ever seem to agree on what they are.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Kiahanie

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:20:07 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.

You don't take them at their word? Why is that? They all claim to be different, even if the difference is based on secular values and not on a scriptural issue(s). 

I am certain believers think their theological/christological differences make a difference.

For me, the differences are trivial, being variations on an imagined theme. They all sound pretty much alike to me. It is in their behavior that I see differences between Christians, and those behaviors seem to have little to do with -ologies.

I would sooner believe that all dogs go to Heaven than to hear that all Quakers get their ticket punched for one of the twelve heavenly Pearl Gates. That is because dogs know that they are dogs and most happily so. Quakers don't ever seem to agree on what they are. [strikeout mine -k]

Good point. Most dogs behave like dogs. When you see a dog you know it by its appearance and behaviour. Honest non-hypocritical characters, outstanding integrity. I hope they do go to heaven.

OTOH, it is very difficult to tell the difference between a Christian and non-Christians 6 days of the week.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:38:33 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:20:07 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:01:56 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 04:54:52 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
[strikeout mine -k]

Nice critique. I liked all but the last sentence. Intra-Christian fights are not my cup of tea. They all look pretty much the same to me.

You don't take them at their word? Why is that? They all claim to be different, even if the difference is based on secular values and not on a scriptural issue(s). 

I am certain believers think their theological/christological differences make a difference.

For me, the differences are trivial, being variations on an imagined theme. They all sound pretty much alike to me. It is in their behavior that I see differences between Christians, and those behaviors seem to have little to do with -ologies.

I would sooner believe that all dogs go to Heaven than to hear that all Quakers get their ticket punched for one of the twelve heavenly Pearl Gates. That is because dogs know that they are dogs and most happily so. Quakers don't ever seem to agree on what they are. [strikeout mine -k]

Good point. Most dogs behave like dogs. When you see a dog you know it by its appearance and behaviour. Honest non-hypocritical characters, outstanding integrity. I hope they do go to heaven.

OTOH, it is very difficult to tell the difference between a Christian and non-Christians 6 days of the week.

More like 7 days of the week. The Christian label ain't what it used to be. Or perhaps in fair honesty it never was. The Lord Jesus Christ has his church and my being the member of a certain denomination or local church has absolutely nothing to do with my membership and salvation.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Kiahanie

#7
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 07:23:00 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:38:33 PM••••
Good point. Most dogs behave like dogs. When you see a dog you know it by its appearance and behaviour. Honest non-hypocritical characters, outstanding integrity. I hope they do go to heaven.

OTOH, it is very difficult to tell the difference between a Christian and non-Christians 6 days of the week.

More like 7 days of the week. The Christian label ain't what it used to be. Or perhaps in fair honesty it never was. The Lord Jesus Christ has his church and my being the member of a certain denomination or local church has absolutely nothing to do with my membership and salvation.

We are in agreement on a lot of that.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 10:53:43 AMA non-believer, reacting to the good news of God's kingdom, might say, "I want that". They repent and believe. Then this new Christian ought to be baptized, as a sign of the forgiveness of their sins. Life is fragile; time is fleeting and there was no bible study for the 3,000 who listened to Peter's sermon at Pentecost, just their baptism. The thief on the cross had the master teacher there at hand, but he no study, his sins were forgiven. The Ethiopian Eunuch, on the road from Jerusalen to Gaza, received the good news (but no study) and he was baptized.

So, you have many religious groups and cults that offer (insist might be a better word) a bible study before they will baptize you. The why of this is that they are selling the group, selling the organization as the primary focus. Jesus Christ comes in second. In one case (The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) he shows up as a former Archangel.
I have questioned Witnesses about this because I noted the same thing.  The thing about it is that to repent and believe, one must first know what they are repenting and what they are believing.  The Jews of the time would have already been familiar with the scriptures unlike many today.  We are not in 1st century Jerusalem.  People you meet on the street today need more/less education than others.  Who is God?  Who is Christ? What is baptism?  What is sin?  What is faith?  What is the Good News? 

There is also the matter of repentance.  John the baptizer turned some away telling them to first produce fruit befitting repentance.  Baptism wasn't just an open bar.  We don't want people setting out to build a house without first having the means necessary to follow through.

The benefit of a home Bible study is that a person's individual needs can be understood and they can progress at their own pace.  Some people need a little and some people need a lot.  Baptism depends on the individual.

I never completed a home Bible study.  I already knew the material.  My "study" became a few Q&A sessions with some of the elders.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

#9
I would've preferred to have been presented the arguments for why I should be a christian rather than be forced into it via infant baptism.

But I don't want a plain bible study either but a presentation of all major christian sectoral interpretations, other religions as well as the atheistic viewpoints in order to make an informed decision.

kevin

you cant make an informed decision.

you have to have direct experience.
dare to know.

8livesleft

Quote from: kevin on August 13, 2022, 01:27:22 AMyou cant make an informed decision.

you have to have direct experience.

Hehe yes, I would expect to hear that argument from the atheistic viewpoint. 

I would also expect a rebuttal from the other groups who may say that direct experience is constant 24/7 everywhere, clearly apparent to those with the "right" vision, perception, mindset.

kevin

i am not an atheist.

if you think that you can reason yourself into belief in god, i would suggest that that path will be insufficient.

but everyone has their own threshold.
dare to know.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 13, 2022, 12:56:22 AMI would've preferred to have been presented the arguments for why I should be a christian rather than be forced into it via infant baptism.

But I don't want a plain bible study either but a presentation of all major christian sectoral interpretations, other religions as well as the atheistic viewpoints in order to make an informed decision.
It's never too late.  Biblehub.com supplies various commentaries on the scriptures that can help inform you of some of the different views.  You can also compare several Bible translations including an interlinear translation.  An interlinear is the closest to a literal word for word translation but is very challenging to read.  It also contains Strong's Concordance which is widely accepted.  I frequently make use of the site myself.



 

I don't know about other religions.  

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

#14
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 05:04:15 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 13, 2022, 12:56:22 AMI would've preferred to have been presented the arguments for why I should be a christian rather than be forced into it via infant baptism.

But I don't want a plain bible study either but a presentation of all major christian sectoral interpretations, other religions as well as the atheistic viewpoints in order to make an informed decision.
It's never too late.  Biblehub.com supplies various commentaries on the scriptures that can help inform you of some of the different views.  You can also compare several Bible translations including an interlinear translation.  An interlinear is the closest to a literal word for word translation but is very challenging to read.  It also contains Strong's Concordance which is widely accepted.  I frequently make use of the site myself.



 

I don't know about other religions. 



Interlinear would be based on the greek or hebrew? So, experts checked each and every word and put in the proper english?

How much different is it from KJV/NIV?

Jstwebbrowsing

This one contains both.  The biggest difference is the sentence structure.  Here's what I mean:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/3-15.htm

What I like about it is that is shows the original word right above the translation.  Each word is also linked to Strong's concordance so you can just click and go to the definition off each word. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 06:46:46 PMThis one contains both.  The biggest difference is the sentence structure.  Here's what I mean:  https://biblehub.com/interlinear/exodus/3-15.htm

What I like about it is that is shows the original word right above the translation.  Each word is also linked to Strong's concordance so you can just click and go to the definition off each word.

Thanks man! I'll check it out.

Maybe this can be set as a resource here or something and later we can add something similar for the other religions.

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft