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Un-Reasonable Faith with William Lane Craig

Started by Teaspoon Shallow, July 28, 2022, 11:53:10 PM

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eyeshaveit

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.

People can work per instructions with no direct feedback. And all normal humans have the feedback of their conscience.     
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Shnozzola

#91
QuoteWhat gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works

I interpret the teachings of Jesus in an opposite way.  You can read his teachings to say we must have faith in each other.  This is a thousand times more difficult than having faith in a deity, and a thousand times more important, from parents having faith in their children,  to society having faith to rehabilitate criminals.  Faith in each other would change the world.
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

Kiahanie

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Shnozzola on August 12, 2022, 12:36:24 PM
QuoteWhat gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works

I interpret the teachings of Jesus in an opposite way.  You can read his teachings to say we must have faith in each other.  This is a thousand times more difficult than having faith in a deity, and a thousand times more important, from parents having faith in their children,  to society having faith to rehabilitate criminals.  Faith in each other would change the world.


Faith in each other might be a commendable thing, but it is not God's plan 
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.

It sounds like the whole bible to me, but especially as summed up in the book of Romans and later popularized by the Roman Catholic friar, Martin Luther.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Kiahanie

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.

It sounds like the whole bible to me, but especially as summed up in the book of Romans and later popularized by the Roman Catholic friar, Martin Luther.

It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

eyeshaveit

#96
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.

It sounds like the whole bible to me, but especially as summed up in the book of Romans and later popularized by the Roman Catholic friar, Martin Luther.

It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?

Why do you want to end your understanding of God's truth by pitting Bible portions against each other? Tis a blind alley.

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. - 1 Corinthians 3
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on August 12, 2022, 07:47:01 AMjst, as you know, the roman catholics follow the pope and pray to the virgin mary to intercede for them with jesus christ.  they offer prayers for the dead to boost access to heaven for those who didnt make it out of purgatory.

they have scripture to support their beliefs, and they say you dont have scripture to support yours.

are these activities doing the will of god?
No, but that is not enough for me to be able to know whether a particular Catholic will be saved.  Do they love God with their whole soul?  Do they love their neighbors?  If one does those things, everything else should eventually fall into place.  It's just a matter of time and education.  I believe the same applies to me in areas where I may be mistaken. 

We all make mistakes.  The question is, when we become aware of them, will we correct them?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.

It sounds like the whole bible to me, but especially as summed up in the book of Romans and later popularized by the Roman Catholic friar, Martin Luther.

It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
James does not disagree with Paul.  Paul says faith is all that's necessary.  James helps define what faith is.
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 06:13:19 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 05:53:19 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.
••••

Where did that come from? That does not sound like either Paul or Jesus.

It sounds like the whole bible to me, but especially as summed up in the book of Romans and later popularized by the Roman Catholic friar, Martin Luther.

It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
There is no disagreement.  Paul taught faith is all that's necessary.  James defined faith.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kiahanie

#99
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM••••
It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
There is no disagreement.  Paul taught faith is all that's necessary.  James defined faith.

James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

kevin

#100
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:01:28 PMNo, but that is not enough for me to be able to know whether a particular Catholic will be saved.  Do they love God with their whole soul?  Do they love their neighbors?  If one does those things, everything else should eventually fall into place.  It's just a matter of time and education.  I believe the same applies to me in areas where I may be mistaken. 

We all make mistakes.  The question is, when we become aware of them, will we correct them?

if ^^^thst is true, then it necessarilly follows that one neednt be a christian to be acceptable to god, in the past or today.

is that what you mean to assert?
dare to know.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 08:34:52 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM••••
It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
There is no disagreement.  Paul taught faith is all that's necessary.  James defined faith.

James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 08:34:52 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM••••
It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
There is no disagreement.  Paul taught faith is all that's necessary.  James defined faith.

James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 08:34:52 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:17:09 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 06:56:00 PM••••
It does sound more like Paul than Jesus. Why do you put so much weight on Paul's extrapolations and not in James' "first-hand" conveyance of Jesus' message?
There is no disagreement.  Paul taught faith is all that's necessary.  James defined faith.

James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
Paul is referencing works of law, whereas James is actually referencing acts of love.   The religious leaders had the former but not the latter and they were rejected.  Abraham had the latter but not the former and it was "credited to him as righteousness".

The moral of the story is to be like Abraham, not the religious leaders of Jesus' time.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on August 12, 2022, 10:08:29 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 08:01:28 PMNo, but that is not enough for me to be able to know whether a particular Catholic will be saved.  Do they love God with their whole soul?  Do they love their neighbors?  If one does those things, everything else should eventually fall into place.  It's just a matter of time and education.  I believe the same applies to me in areas where I may be mistaken. 

We all make mistakes.  The question is, when we become aware of them, will we correct them?

if ^^^thst is true, then it necessarilly follows that one neednt be a christian to be acceptable to god, in the past or today.

is that what you mean to assert?

I wouldn't say acceptable.  I would say it's still to be determined.

I would love it if all Quakers "got their ticket punched".
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

traditional quakers were fairly universalist, at least until about the 1680s. after that we decided that it was more important to be socially right than to follow christ, and things got muddled.

but quakers are as divided today as are the protestants. in fact, most quakers have abandoned quakerism and have become protestants, keeping only the label.

in my case, its not up to me, and i'm not worried about it one way or another.
dare to know.

Kiahanie

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 10:33:55 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 08:34:52 PM••••
James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
Paul is referencing works of law, whereas James is actually referencing acts of love.  The religious leaders had the former but not the latter and they were rejected.  Abraham had the latter but not the former and it was "credited to him as righteousness".

The moral of the story is to be like Abraham, not the religious leaders of Jesus' time.

I think that is my point. Jesus was big on love. "And the second is like into it...." Love your neighbor as you love your god.

Paul speaks little about right relations between people based on love. Instead he speaks of rules and laws and hardly ever of loving neighborly responses to others. The teachings of the Sermons on the Mounts are not at all seen in Paul's writings. Jesus' embrace of sinners and the socially marginal are not reflected in Paul's writing.

It is your religion, so you have a particular framework for reading your scriptures. For us outside that framework, it is ancient literature from a specific time, place and culture, subject to non-magical interpretation and analysis. At best Paul extrapolated from accounts he heard second- or third-hand.

"Christianity" is built on an uneasy fusion of Jesus and Paul. The Gospels account for about 65,000 words, most of which is narrative, few words from Jesus himself. The rest (700,000+) are from Paul or his followers. Paul buried the simple message of Jesus in a ton of words and his own thinking.

Mohammad was fortunate to have literate scribes around him, recording 78,000 of his actual words, but that did not save Islam from splitting along the lines of teachers, same as happened earlier with Christianity. James and Jesus lost, Paul won. Islam is still arguing about their split.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

kevin

#105
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 11:47:52 PMPaul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.

paul was a pharisee. rules were important.

he was concerned to turn the free-styled obedience to god of jesus into a formal set of rules and doctrines. and his point of view managed to overcome the others that jesus had arguably inspired at the time.
dare to know.

8livesleft

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

Doing God's will. What is the will of the Lord of the Universe? Is it to perfectly keep his laws? No, only one human, Jesus of Nazareth, kept God's laws with each and every earthly thought and breath that he took. What gets one's heavenly ticket punched is Faith not Laws or Works. Yes, once you have become a child of God you do want to please your Father with good works, but faith in the good news of the Gospel is the only real requirement.

People can work per instructions with no direct feedback. And all normal humans have the feedback of their conscience.   

The difference of course is this "conscience" is developed over many years and is based on the rules/principles dictated by the parents or household, then rp's (rules principles) of the community, school, workplace, local government. 

And there's constant/direct feedback when you do something good and bad. This constant feedback recalibrates our moral compass on a regular basis and it's this that our conscience is based on. 


Kiahanie

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 13, 2022, 12:52:26 AM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM••••
The difference of course is this "conscience" is developed over many years and is based on the rules/principles dictated by the parents or household, then rp's (rules principles) of the community, school, workplace, local government.

And there's constant/direct feedback when you do something good and bad. This constant feedback recalibrates our moral compass on a regular basis and it's this that our conscience is based on.

I would say the feedback recalibrates our sense of what is socially acceptable. Some make the argument that is all conscience is. I would not make that argument.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

8livesleft

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 13, 2022, 01:27:11 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 13, 2022, 12:52:26 AM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 12, 2022, 11:47:53 AM••••
The difference of course is this "conscience" is developed over many years and is based on the rules/principles dictated by the parents or household, then rp's (rules principles) of the community, school, workplace, local government.

And there's constant/direct feedback when you do something good and bad. This constant feedback recalibrates our moral compass on a regular basis and it's this that our conscience is based on.

I would say the feedback recalibrates our sense of what is socially acceptable. Some make the argument that is all conscience is. I would not make that argument.

Yes definitely social acceptance is a major part of it but I'm not sure that's all of it because you do see people deviating from norms a lot, isolating themselves. 

Some may even rely on environmental feedback, like farmers, fishermen or even tribal communities...


Kiahanie

#109
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 13, 2022, 02:12:59 AM••••
Yes definitely social acceptance is a major part of it but I'm not sure that's all of it because you do see people deviating from norms a lot, isolating themselves.

Some may even rely on environmental feedback, like farmers, fishermen or even tribal communities...

Yup. That is the  best example for the general rule: feedback recalibrates our adjustment to our environment.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 11:47:52 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 10:33:55 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 08:34:52 PM••••
James was big on works. Paul said faith is all You need.

I really think context matters in discussing Paul's attitudes toward faith regarding the Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus.

Paul effectively turned a Jewish reform movement into a gentile religion. Jesus is not recorded saying anything like that while alive.
Paul is referencing works of law, whereas James is actually referencing acts of love.  The religious leaders had the former but not the latter and they were rejected.  Abraham had the latter but not the former and it was "credited to him as righteousness".

The moral of the story is to be like Abraham, not the religious leaders of Jesus' time.

I think that is my point. Jesus was big on love. "And the second is like into it...." Love your neighbor as you love your god.

Paul speaks little about right relations between people based on love. Instead he speaks of rules and laws and hardly ever of loving neighborly responses to others. The teachings of the Sermons on the Mounts are not at all seen in Paul's writings. Jesus' embrace of sinners and the socially marginal are not reflected in Paul's writing.

It is your religion, so you have a particular framework for reading your scriptures. For us outside that framework, it is ancient literature from a specific time, place and culture, subject to non-magical interpretation and analysis. At best Paul extrapolated from accounts he heard second- or third-hand.

"Christianity" is built on an uneasy fusion of Jesus and Paul. The Gospels account for about 65,000 words, most of which is narrative, few words from Jesus himself. The rest (700,000+) are from Paul or his followers. Paul buried the simple message of Jesus in a ton of words and his own thinking.

Mohammad was fortunate to have literate scribes around him, recording 78,000 of his actual words, but that did not save Islam from splitting along the lines of teachers, same as happened earlier with Christianity. James and Jesus lost, Paul won. Islam is still arguing about their split.
What about this?

For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]27 but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; [/font][/size][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]28 [/color]and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]29 [/color]so that no one might boast in the sight of God. [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]30 [/color]But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]31 [/color]so that it may be just as it is written: "The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah."[/color]
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kiahanie

#111
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 05:48:06 AM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 12, 2022, 11:47:52 PM••••
What about this?

For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]27 but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; [/font][/size][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]28 [/color]and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]29 [/color]so that no one might boast in the sight of God. [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]30 [/color]But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]31 [/color]so that it may be just as it is written: "The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah."[/color]

I dunno. What about it?  Do you have a point to make?
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

That scripture is a reflection of Christ's embrace of sinners and the socially marginal.

Also, in reference to your last reply, Paul was also familiar with the scriptures.  These were the source of Jesus' teachings.  Paul used the scriptures.  So, I think the proper framework is at least the Hebrew scriptures and the gospels.  I think the proper question is did Paul teach what was "bad in the eyes of Jehovah", based on the scriptures?  

So, in the least, Paul had first-hand reports and knowledge of the scriptures.  Why wouldn't he be qualified to teach?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 11:24:24 PMThat scripture is a reflection of Christ's embrace of sinners and the socially marginal.

Also, in reference to your last reply, Paul was also familiar with the scriptures.  These were the source of Jesus' teachings.  Paul used the scriptures.  So, I think the proper framework is at least the Hebrew scriptures and the gospels.  I think the proper question is did Paul teach what was "bad in the eyes of Jehovah", based on the scriptures? 

So, in the least, Paul had first-hand reports and knowledge of the scriptures.  Why wouldn't he be qualified to teach?


So long as it's being taught in the same spirit as what the original founder wanted then there's no issue. 

However, what Kiahanie and others have mentioned is that there appears to have been a major shift in the type of message and church being presented by Paul compared to what the original church of jesus was presenting. 


Kiahanie

#114
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 11:24:24 PMThat scripture is a reflection of Christ's embrace of sinners and the socially marginal.

Also, in reference to your last reply, Paul was also familiar with the scriptures.  These were the source of Jesus' teachings.  Paul used the scriptures.  So, I think the proper framework is at least the Hebrew scriptures and the gospels.  I think the proper question is did Paul teach what was "bad in the eyes of Jehovah", based on the scriptures? 

So, in the least, Paul had first-hand reports and knowledge of the scriptures.  Why wouldn't he be qualified to teach?

I don't believe I have ever suggested Paul was not qualified to teach. I have said that what Paul taught was not what Jesus taught, but was Paul's extrapolation and elaboration of what he heard about Jesus.

If that scripture is the closest Paul can get to the sermons on the mounts, then Paul is not on the same mountain.

Same thing all the way through the Pauline docs. Paul just does not show much interest in the things Jesus was interested in. He had his own probably well-meaning agenda, and riffed off Jesus to promote it.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

#115
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 14, 2022, 01:37:08 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 13, 2022, 11:24:24 PMThat scripture is a reflection of Christ's embrace of sinners and the socially marginal.

Also, in reference to your last reply, Paul was also familiar with the scriptures.  These were the source of Jesus' teachings.  Paul used the scriptures.  So, I think the proper framework is at least the Hebrew scriptures and the gospels.  I think the proper question is did Paul teach what was "bad in the eyes of Jehovah", based on the scriptures? 

So, in the least, Paul had first-hand reports and knowledge of the scriptures.  Why wouldn't he be qualified to teach?

I don't believe I have ever suggested Paul was not qualified to teach. I have said that what Paul taught was not what Jesus taught, but was Paul's extrapolation and elaboration of what he heard about Jesus.

If that scripture is the closest Paul can get to the sermons on the mounts, then Paul is not on the same mountain.

Same thing all the way through the Pauline docs. Paul just does not show much interest in the things Jesus was interested in. He had his own probably well-meaning agenda, and riffed off Jesus to promote it.
I think I've asked you what was central to Christ's teachings..  I believe you answered to love your neighbor and the sermon on the mount.  That is a good answer.  A more central theme of Christ's teachings was the promised Kingdom, "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is near".  Paul taught about that Kingdom.  So, in that way, he did teach what Jesus taught.  Paul also talked a lot about the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection and what it means.  Jesus did not.

Have you found something Paul taught that was contrary to Jesus?  I mean, I accept Paul but still know the importance of mercy, kindness, compassion, and lowliness of heart.  I mean, on here I associate with  sinners, atheists, and some with differing religious beliefs.  Some have been openly hostile but all of you have grown very dear to me.  Nothing Paul wrote makes me want to change that.

The central theme of Christ's teachings was the promised Kingdom.  "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven has drawn near," is what he preached and he taught many things about it.  Paul taught about that Kingdom.  In that way Paul did teach what Jesus taught and I think that's what's important.  Did he add to the revelation of the Kingdom?

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kiahanie

#116
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 14, 2022, 04:44:39 AM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 14, 2022, 01:37:08 AM••••
I think I've asked you what was central to Christ's teachings..  I believe you answered to love your neighbor and the sermon on the mount.  That is a good answer.  A more central theme(1) of Christ's teachings was the promised Kingdom, "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is near". (2) Paul taught about that Kingdom. (3) So, in that way, he did teach what Jesus taught.  Paul also talked a lot about the significance of Jesus' death and resurrection and what it means.  Jesus did not.(4)

Have you found something Paul taught that was contrary to Jesus? (5)  I mean, I accept Paul but still know the importance of mercy, kindness, compassion, and lowliness of heart.  I mean, on here I associate with  sinners, atheists, and some with differing religious beliefs.  Some have been openly hostile but all of you have grown very dear to me.  Nothing Paul wrote makes me want to change that.(6)

The central theme of Christ's teachings was the promised Kingdom.  "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven has drawn near," is what he preached and he taught many things about it.  Paul taught about that Kingdom.(3)  In that way Paul did teach what Jesus taught and I think that's what's important.  Did he add to the revelation of the Kingdom?(7)
[(Numbers) are mine -k]

Wow. Books have been written.  If you want to get further into this topic it should probably have a thread of its own. Here are quick examples keyed to your post.

First, a diagram. Kinda.
\\\\\\\\\\\XXXX//////////
\\\\\\\\\\\XXXX//////////
\\\Jesus\\XXXX//Paul///
\\\\\\\\\\\XXXX//////////
\\\\\\\\\\\XXXX//////////
Illustration not to scale. There is an overlap (XXX) between the message of Jesus and the 12 (\\\) and the message of Paul (///). Paul elaborated on some of Jesus' teachings, ignored others, and inserted lots of his own.

(1) Most discussions of the difference between Jesus and Paul begin with the primary message of Jesus and the 12 concerning who Jesus is, vs Paul's message of what Jesus did (save us all through crucifixion).

(2) Jesus preached repentance and works to get into the Kingdom, Paul preached faith, hardly spoke of repentance, and considered obeying the Law to be "dead works."

(3) For Jesus, the Kingdom was not of this world. For Paul, his god set rulers on their thrones.

(4) True, Jesus never did mention his own death and resurrection. The 12 did not make a big deal of it, either. Paul, OTOH, built an entire Christology around it.

(5) direct contradiction? Paul preached salvation by faith alone, Jesus preached entry to the Kingdom through love of Yahweh and neighbors as manifest in works. For Jesus, "grace" had nothing to do with entry to the kingdom.

Jesus also spoke of how not one line of The Law should pass away, that he came to fulfill the law, not repeal it. Paul said the law might apply to Jews but not to gentiles. Jesus never distinction between gentile and Jew, even when speaking of a Samaritan.

Paul thought all people are sinners and perfection impossible. Jesus encouraged perfection and good works.

(6)"Nothing Paul wrote makes me want to change that."

Don't. It is your religion. If you want to grant Saul/Paul editorial control over Jesus' message, that is entirely your business. That is how the Christian religion got started. Jesus was too radical to take straight, so his message had to be processed and packaged to fit Saul's gentile audience and his own Pharisaic mentality, and maybe also his own feelings of guilt and remorse.

(7) "Did he add to the revelation of the Kingdom?"
 Oh yes. The question is, would Jesus have approved of Paul adding to, subtracting from and otherwise modifying his message? I do not think so, but I also think my opinion is not particularly relevant to anything but an internet discussion.

EDIT: I expect there is a lot more we could discuss if you like.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Francis

For anyone who is interested:

Don't be fooled.


1)... There is no logical contradiction between the teachings of Paul and Jesus.

2)... Paul was sold out for Christ and was so interested in the things that Jesus was interested in, that he suffered horribly for preaching Jesus.  Paul's body must have been one huge massive scar tissue because of all that he endured for Christ with incredible courage and perseverance and love for Christ.  Which eventually led to him being martyred for Christ.

3)... The core doctrines of the Christian faith weren't peculiar to Paul.

4)... Paul told Peter, James and John, in detail, the message he was preaching to the Gentiles, and they ratified his teaching. (Galatians 2:7-9)

5)... This discussion about some kind of contradiction between Paul and Jesus is completely and ultimately irrelevant because of #3 above. Since the core doctrines of the Christian faith weren't peculiar to Paul, you don't even have to believe in Paul to follow Jesus... nor do you even have to like Paul to follow Jesus. Indeed, there were Christians in the early church who at times didn't see eye to eye with Paul and would quarrel or argue with him... like John Mark and Barnabas... and even Peter.

6)... Not only did Paul insist that you don't have to believe in him in order to be a Christian (1 Corinthians 1.11-15)... but he obviously had absolutely no interest in... zero interest in... generating a following.  He even said he and other Christians are ultimately nothing apart from God. (1 Corinthians 3.5-7)


etc etc etc

Kiahanie

#118
Quote from: Francis on August 14, 2022, 09:24:48 PMFor anyone who is interested:
••••
etc etc etc

I guess this is one of those areas where we do not have agreement, Francis.

EDIT: Nope. I am wrong. You said "...you don't even have to believe in Paul to follow Jesus."

I think I will agree with you on that .
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

kevin

#119
christian doctrine has had 1500 years to assemble the patchwork of beliefs that reflect it today. it unravels at the orthodox split, the reformation, and at lots of other less significant places.

it holds together if you carefully ignore the places where it doesnt.  the less you pay attention to the fundamental differences between the major traditions, the cohesive chridtianity appears.
dare to know.