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Un-Reasonable Faith with William Lane Craig

Started by Teaspoon Shallow, July 28, 2022, 11:53:10 PM

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maritime

Quote from: maritime on August 08, 2022, 04:49:55 AMKiahanie
QuoteNothing in my experience validates the idea of a Creation by a Creator. What I see instead is without beginning or end. My experience validates that.

A bit short sighted wouldn't you say, your experience that is.

How to tell that which is seen is without beginning or end, that the human experience validates that and not the idea of a Creation by a Creator.

Kiahanie

#61
Quote from: maritime on August 08, 2022, 09:44:24 PM
Quote from: maritime on August 08, 2022, 04:49:55 AMKiahanie
QuoteNothing in my experience validates the idea of a Creation by a Creator. What I see instead is without beginning or end. My experience validates that.

A bit short sighted wouldn't you say, your experience that is.

How to tell that which is seen is without beginning or end, that the human experience validates that and not the idea of a Creation by a Creator.

I see nothing that begins of itself, but begins as something else, eventually becoming itself and then becoming something other. Endless process upon process with no beginning and no end.

Seed, seedling, sapling, tree, seed....

Hydrogen cloud, star, nova, hydrogen cloud, star....

So here in the middle, that is what I experience. I do not experience a Creator God. Some people do. Do you have experience with a Creator God, maritime? What is your experience with beginnings and endings?
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 07, 2022, 05:16:52 AM
QuoteIt's as if you think God would be subject to humans and we can dictate the terms of any relationship. 


Isn't that what everyone does?

We're talking about a deity that cannot be detected by regular human perception or any available tool from science.

The only way is through alleged subjective experience based on the individual's own standard.


When these individuals say they interact, they're doing it on their own specific terms which they and only they can say is valid.

Is that not more arrogant?.

Yes, I see what you're saying.  I've actually wrestled with this because it can appear arrogant and can feel that way.  On the other, hand to not share feels more arrogant, dishonest, and indifferent at best, haughty at the worst.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 08, 2022, 10:19:41 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 07, 2022, 05:16:52 AM
QuoteIt's as if you think God would be subject to humans and we can dictate the terms of any relationship. 


Isn't that what everyone does?

We're talking about a deity that cannot be detected by regular human perception or any available tool from science.

The only way is through alleged subjective experience based on the individual's own standard.


When these individuals say they interact, they're doing it on their own specific terms which they and only they can say is valid.

Is that not more arrogant?.

Yes, I see what you're saying.  I've actually wrestled with this because it can appear arrogant and can feel that way.  On the other, hand to not share feels more arrogant, dishonest, and indifferent at best, haughty at the worst.

Not share what? The subjective experience? 

Sharing will not change it's inherent subjectivity. There might be some acceptance from others but that does not equate to confirmation because an outsider can never confirm another's subjective experience. 

Jstwebbrowsing

No, I actually rarely share any personal experience in that regard.  I generally stick to what the scriptures teach for that very reason.  Although if I do that some people get the wrong impression that my relationship is with a book.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 08, 2022, 11:47:28 PMNo, I actually rarely share any personal experience in that regard.  I generally stick to what the scriptures teach for that very reason.  Although if I do that some people get the wrong impression that my relationship is with a book.

Right, so what did you mean when you said "to not share...?" Share what?

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

maritime

Are ideas without beginning or end. Experiencing ideas does not necessarily correlate with experiencing (with the five senses) actual physical matter. Some ideas become concrete and while some remain in the idea realm. Are ideas real.

8livesleft

#68
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 12:20:21 AMThe message of the Kingdom.

Ah ok. So you're simply sharing your group's interpretation of the bible? That would be easier to verify because it is a whole group's interpretation so the message would have a higher chance of staying intact

As opposed to someone's subjective experience of the supernatural.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 01:34:05 AMWhat I find sad is the desperation that comes from knowing that if that one incredible fact is in fact non-factual, then all meaning is lost and they plunge into a fathomless abyss.
I believe Francis is referencing this:

Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead,+ how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?+ [color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised up. [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and your faith is also in vain. [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]15 Moreover, we are also found to be false witnesses of God,+ because we have given witness against God by saying that he raised up the Christ,+ whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you remain in your sins.+ [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in death in union with Christ have perished.+ [/font][/color][color=var(--du-color--blue-500,#4a6da7)]19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are to be pitied more than anyone.[/font][/color]
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

I would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kiahanie

"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Kiahanie

Quote from: maritime on August 09, 2022, 12:22:02 AMAre ideas without beginning or end. Experiencing ideas does not necessarily correlate with experiencing (with the five senses) actual physical matter. Some ideas become concrete and while some remain in the idea realm. Are ideas real.

Good question. What is an idea? A collection of words or a collection of electrochemical pulses? Something else entirely?

 Are ideas possible without language? Some non-human animals seem to have some forms of language. Do they have "ideas"? Do nonlinguistic animals have ideas?

"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

8livesleft

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 09, 2022, 05:34:39 AM
Quote from: maritime on August 09, 2022, 12:22:02 AMAre ideas without beginning or end. Experiencing ideas does not necessarily correlate with experiencing (with the five senses) actual physical matter. Some ideas become concrete and while some remain in the idea realm. Are ideas real.

Good question. What is an idea? A collection of words or a collection of electrochemical pulses? Something else entirely?

 Are ideas possible without language? Some non-human animals seem to have some forms of language. Do they have "ideas"? Do nonlinguistic animals have ideas?



Dogs and other animals have dreams. I'm quite sure a lot of those dream ideas can't be experienced in the waking world. 

But those dreams come from somewhere, like a mishmash of waking experiences along with fears, desires and other emotions. 

Not sure where these dream memories go though...sometimes we remember - somewhat putting them into our long term memories. But the short term ones? Not sure...maybe another specific combination of waking experiences and emotions needs to occur to bring back the same dream memory...

none

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on July 28, 2022, 11:53:10 PMhttps://www.reasonablefaith.org/media/reasonable-faith-podcast/questions-on-quantum-mechanics-certainty-and-extreme-resistance




    Hi, Dr. Craig. I wanted to ask a potential objection to the cosmological argument. Is it possible that the uncaused cause is an eternal state of quantum potential that led to the creation of the universe? If this state could exist, would that not solve the problem of creation without God as this state is uncaused and always existed. And this first state doesn't necessarily have to be quantum potential so long as the state is something that is uncaused. Troy, United States.

DR. CRAIG: I think the problem with appealing to some sort of quantum mechanical state is that such a state is inherently unstable and therefore could not exist for eternity past and then just a finite number of years ago produce the universe. In my article with James Sinclair in The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, we talk about a number of possible cosmological models that would try to have a quantum state that goes back eternally and all of these models in the end fail to be viable descriptions of the real physical universe.
hmm.. quantum state hmm.. unstable...??
that's a tall order.
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 08, 2022, 09:34:23 PMNo, a does not equal c.  I see what you're saying.

Concerning the other part,  you've asked me to demonstrate God is possible.  I've already said I can't, just like I can't for many other things that exist.

I can see how I would be begging the question to an unbeliever.  But I am not asking you to believe, and I'm not interested in arguing you into belief.  As I said, the only way we could know of such a being would be for it to approach us.  Yes, that's assuming it exists.  If it doesn't then it certainly won't.  That was assumed too.  If it does, then it may or may not reveal itself and it certainly could hide from us.
Thanks Jst.

I hear what you are saying and see where you are coming from.
If you have any questions for me while I have a little spare time I would be happy to answer.

||beerchug||
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Francis

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.

none

chances are two dudes dressed like nuns took him down and said "yeh' he's ressurected right here, blah."
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?

maybe there is more to the story
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?


This is the issue. I see you both as biblical experts and yet you have different interpretations and no authority on earth can say who's correct. 


Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 11, 2022, 05:24:09 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?


This is the issue. I see you both as biblical experts and yet you have different interpretations and no authority on earth can say who's correct.


Yes, I understand that.  It weighs on me too that there is not more unanimous agreement.  But I am certain, at least between me and Francis, there are many points of agreement.  One point I think we share is that complete agreement is not necessary for one to be a Christian.  I think what's most important is to not let our differences of opinion lead to divisive and abusive actions toward one another.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

#83
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 11, 2022, 05:24:09 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?


This is the issue. I see you both as biblical experts and yet you have different interpretations and no authority on earth can say who's correct.


Yes, I understand that.  It weighs on me too that there is not more unanimous agreement.  But I am certain, at least between me and Francis, there are many points of agreement.  One point I think we share is that complete agreement is not necessary for one to be a Christian.  I think what's most important is to not let our differences of opinion lead to divisive and abusive actions toward one another. 

Yeah you both seem more chill about those things. I think some sects require absolute obedience and adherence to their interpretation though, bordering on abusiveness and divisiveness.

All religions/groups have those super strict sects, I think. I guess some people find it attractive.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 12:58:32 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 11, 2022, 05:24:09 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?


This is the issue. I see you both as biblical experts and yet you have different interpretations and no authority on earth can say who's correct.


Yes, I understand that.  It weighs on me too that there is not more unanimous agreement.  But I am certain, at least between me and Francis, there are many points of agreement.  One point I think we share is that complete agreement is not necessary for one to be a Christian.  I think what's most important is to not let our differences of opinion lead to divisive and abusive actions toward one another. 

Yeah you both seem more chill about those things. I think some sects require absolute obedience and adherence to their interpretation though, bordering on abusiveness and divisiveness.

All religions/groups have those super strict sects, I think. I guess some people find it attractive.
Well, we do believe ours is the only true congregation of Christ and that the governing body are Christ's appointed shepherds and teachers but that doesn't mean all of God's servants are members or only Witnesses will be saved.

Judging Francis, or any of you would be foolish on my part.
  
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 03:04:04 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 12, 2022, 12:58:32 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 08:28:21 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 11, 2022, 05:24:09 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 11, 2022, 12:17:12 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well
Quote from: Francis on August 09, 2022, 05:02:41 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 09, 2022, 04:26:49 AMI would also like to add that if we never truly die, which many people believe, then there cannot be a resurrection of the dead.

I think the Resurrection is referring to the body... being Resurrected into a new glorified body... not the spirit.  If the body stayed buried, then it wouldn't be resurrected into a new glorified body, even if the spirit keeps living.  That's the difference I think.

It's always great seeing you on here JST.  Thanks so much for your participation and faithfulness.

Take care my friend.  Hope you and your family are doing well.
Thanks.  I enjoy seeing you on here too.  How are you doing?

Yes, I think that is a common view but I am unaware of anywhere that's what the scriptures teach.  I mean, it does teach a bodily resurrection but I don't know anywhere it teaches there is anything living that survives the death of the body or that the body is the only thing resurrected.  What leads you to believe there is?


This is the issue. I see you both as biblical experts and yet you have different interpretations and no authority on earth can say who's correct.


Yes, I understand that.  It weighs on me too that there is not more unanimous agreement.  But I am certain, at least between me and Francis, there are many points of agreement.  One point I think we share is that complete agreement is not necessary for one to be a Christian.  I think what's most important is to not let our differences of opinion lead to divisive and abusive actions toward one another. 

Yeah you both seem more chill about those things. I think some sects require absolute obedience and adherence to their interpretation though, bordering on abusiveness and divisiveness.

All religions/groups have those super strict sects, I think. I guess some people find it attractive.
Well, we do believe ours is the only true congregation of Christ and that the governing body are Christ's appointed shepherds and teachers but that doesn't mean all of God's servants are members or only Witnesses will be saved.
 

Not knowing for sure who will or will not be saved is tough tho isn't it? 

It's been 2000 years and still no confirmed formula. 

Jstwebbrowsing

The ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 12, 2022, 06:23:55 AMThe ones doing the will of God are the ones that will be saved.
But how can anyone know if they're indeed doing his will without his direct feedback?

kevin

#89
jst, as you know, the roman catholics follow the pope and pray to the virgin mary to intercede for them with jesus christ.  they offer prayers for the dead to boost access to heaven for those who didnt make it out of purgatory.

they have scripture to support their beliefs, and they say you dont have scripture to support yours.

are these activities doing the will of god?
dare to know.