The Tower of Babel -- History or Myth? Put your thinking caps on, guys and gals

Started by eyeshaveit, July 22, 2022, 10:40:48 AM

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Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 06, 2022, 04:58:49 AMFrancis,

If we remove the bible, where else can you find jesus?

Remove a historic account of Alexander and you'll still have many others from all over the region.

Take away any 1 evidence of a real person's existence and you'll still have countless others from many unrelated sources.

That's the difference.
The Bible is not a single source.  It is a gathering of multiple sources.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

bulls**t, francis. really. i'm surprised at you.

QuoteMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not, to make a strong rational reasonable case from the facts we do and can know... that Jesus was Resurrected and thus He demonstrated Himself to be God Incarnate.

i am aware of no verifiable facts on this matter. and i am aware of no reasonable case to be made from these non-verifiable facts.
dare to know.

Kiahanie

Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 09:09:50 PM••••
The point is not whether a person we call Jesus ever existed, but whether the claims made about him are factual.

There is a great deal of historical evidence supporting many of the claims made concerning Alexander the Great, Socrates, Shakespeare. Not so much for Jesus and King Arthur.
••••
My point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not••••

By "we" you apparently mean people who already believe. The rest of the world could use some clear evidence.

But thank you for confirming that factual evidence concerning claims about Jesus is sparse compared to Alexander, Socrates, et al.

Quote from: Francis••••
It's like Paul said, If Jesus was not Resurrected, then Christianity collapses and we are all left in our sins and the Christians are to be most pitied for believing a lie and basing their salvation on a lie.
••••

Yes. I am sorry for you.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Francis

Quote from: kevin on August 06, 2022, 10:24:19 PMbulls**t, francis. really. i'm surprised at you.

QuoteMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not, to make a strong rational reasonable case from the facts we do and can know... that Jesus was Resurrected and thus He demonstrated Himself to be God Incarnate.

i am aware of no verifiable facts on this matter. and i am aware of no reasonable case to be made from these non-verifiable facts.

whoa!

Why are you so angry and hostile and why do you have to use profanity and why can't you be calm and reasonable and have a civil discussion without so much drama and emotional turmoil?

I've always thought you were the classiest person in this forum.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to... but I'm talking about mundane historical facts and nothing more.  I never said that the Resurrection was a proven historical fact (Although I personally believe it was) because I know that miracles is not the purview of historians.  I'm talking about non-miraculous historical facts mined by historians and what we can infer from those historical facts.

I'm expressing my opinion that the Resurrection is the most  reasonable inference from the mundane non-miraculous historical facts (gleaned by the majority of historians and biblical scholars, atheists and theists alike)

I understand that you disagree with my opinion, but to use profanity to express a difference of opinion?  Is that civil and calm and reasonable?

I have never used profanity to disagree with your opinions, no matter how much I disagree with you.

Are you ok?  This is not the classy person I know.

Maybe you're having some difficulty on the job?

I care about you

Francis

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 10:55:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 09:57:28 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 09:09:50 PM••••
The point is not whether a person we call Jesus ever existed, but whether the claims made about him are factual.

There is a great deal of historical evidence supporting many of the claims made concerning Alexander the Great, Socrates, Shakespeare. Not so much for Jesus and King Arthur.
••••
My point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not••••

By "we" you apparently mean people who already believe. The rest of the world could use some clear evidence.

But thank you for confirming that factual evidence concerning claims about Jesus is sparse compared to Alexander, Socrates, et al.

Quote from: Francis••••
It's like Paul said, If Jesus was not Resurrected, then Christianity collapses and we are all left in our sins and the Christians are to be most pitied for believing a lie and basing their salvation on a lie.
••••

Yes. I am sorry for you.




Kiahanie,


Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 10:55:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 09:57:28 PMMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not
By "we" you apparently mean people who already believe. The rest of the world could use some clear evidence.

No... it's the other way around.   I mean people who were once atheist and agnostic but who became persuaded because of the evidence. Scientists and lawyers and philosophers and mathematicians and biologists and historians and detectives and physicists and teachers and students and sanitary workers and farmers, and moms and dads, and military geniuses, and asphalt workers and grocery clerks and cab drivers and rock stars and movie stars and sports stars, etc etc etc etc... people from all walks of life.

That doesn't mean they are correct... it just means that many people from all walks of life have been persuaded by the evidence... and not because they already believed.



Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 10:55:40 PMBut thank you for confirming that factual evidence concerning claims about Jesus is sparse compared to Alexander, Socrates, et al.

You didn't read what I wrote. 

I was focusing on only ONE aspect of Jesus... and not the entirety of what we know... and so any evidence that is outside of that narrow scope, is completely irrelevant. 

For example, If you are making a case that Socrates said something SPECIFIC  that you  think was important, then any information  that has nothing to do with that specific point... like about his bathroom habits or color of hair and eyes and his height and where he went to school and who his wife was and anything else that has nothing to do with that very narrow specific statement from Socrates that you want to show... it's all irrelevant.

It doesn't mean all that other information doesn't exist about Socrates, it's just irrelevant to the point and case you are making about Socrates.

Surely can you see this?

I want to give you the benefit of doubt.



Quote from: Kiahanie on August 06, 2022, 10:55:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 09:57:28 PMIt's like Paul said, If Jesus was not Resurrected, then Christianity collapses and we are all left in our sins and the Christians are to be most pitied for believing a lie and basing their salvation on a lie.
Yes. I am sorry for you.

And I'm sorry that you can't see. 

I would gently encourage you to read 1Corinthians 1:6-3:4....

It describes you perfectly

Love you with all my heart


kevin

Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: kevin on August 06, 2022, 10:24:19 PMbulls**t, francis. really. i'm surprised at you.

QuoteMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not, to make a strong rational reasonable case from the facts we do and can know... that Jesus was Resurrected and thus He demonstrated Himself to be God Incarnate.

i am aware of no verifiable facts on this matter. and i am aware of no reasonable case to be made from these non-verifiable facts.

whoa!

Why are you so angry and hostile and why do you have to use profanity and why can't you be calm and reasonable and have a civil discussion without so much drama and emotional turmoil?

I've always thought you were the classiest person in this forum.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to... but I'm talking about mundane historical facts and nothing more.  I never said that the Resurrection was a proven historical fact (Although I personally believe it was) because I know that miracles is not the purview of historians.  I'm talking about non-miraculous historical facts mined by historians and what we can infer from those historical facts.

I'm expressing my opinion that the Resurrection is the most  reasonable inference from the mundane non-miraculous historical facts (gleaned by the majority of historians and biblical scholars, atheists and theists alike)

I understand that you disagree with my opinion, but to use profanity to express a difference of opinion?  Is that civil and calm and reasonable?

I have never used profanity to disagree with your opinions, no matter how much I disagree with you.

Are you ok?  This is not the classy person I know.

Maybe you're having some difficulty on the job?

I care about you

francis, i will no longer read any response from you longer than my question.

your statement ^^^above regarding "verifiable facts" and "rationale reasonable" arguments is simple bulls**t.

if not, you can explain why right here.

dare to know.

8livesleft

QuoteAnd you don't even know what the case for the existence of Jesus' historicity is.


Ok, besides the bible what else is it? Present your evidence here.

Quote Secondly, you don't understand the criteria that historians use to determine the reliability of ancient historical accounts and in determining which parts of the ancient document can be assessed as historical.


What document besides the bible? Present it here.

Quote The burden of proof is on anyone who doubts your mom's veracity.


You obviously didn't understand what I said.

So, again, you can take away any single piece of evidence regarding a real person's existence, say a mother's claim and there will still be hundreds of other pieces of evidence available. Like the father, siblings, birth certificate, employment records, school records, albums, I can go all day.

So, in this case, remove the bible, what else can you use as evidence for Jesus?

Like for Alexander, for whom we have many many pieces of evidence from all over the region.


Get it?

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 06, 2022, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 06, 2022, 04:58:49 AMFrancis,

If we remove the bible, where else can you find jesus?

Remove a historic account of Alexander and you'll still have many others from all over the region.

Take away any 1 evidence of a real person's existence and you'll still have countless others from many unrelated sources.

That's the difference.
The Bible is not a single source.  It is a gathering of multiple sources.

The NT is a collection of books from followers written after Jesus died. Many followers, sure, but still all from the same close group of people. So, for me that's essentially the same source. 

And what I'm saying is, besides the NT, what other evidence is there?

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 07, 2022, 12:54:55 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 06, 2022, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 06, 2022, 04:58:49 AMFrancis,
If we remove the bible, where else can you find jesus?
Remove a historic account of Alexander and you'll still have many others from all over the region.
Take away any 1 evidence of a real person's existence and you'll still have countless others from many unrelated sources.
That's the difference.
The Bible is not a single source.  It is a gathering of multiple sources.

The NT is a collection of books from followers written after Jesus died. Many followers, sure, but still all from the same close group of people. So, for me that's essentially the same source.
And what I'm saying is, besides the NT, what other evidence is there?
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

8livesleft

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 07, 2022, 02:51:39 AM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 07, 2022, 12:54:55 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on August 06, 2022, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: 8livesleft on August 06, 2022, 04:58:49 AMFrancis,
If we remove the bible, where else can you find jesus?
Remove a historic account of Alexander and you'll still have many others from all over the region.
Take away any 1 evidence of a real person's existence and you'll still have countless others from many unrelated sources.
That's the difference.
The Bible is not a single source.  It is a gathering of multiple sources.

The NT is a collection of books from followers written after Jesus died. Many followers, sure, but still all from the same close group of people. So, for me that's essentially the same source.
And what I'm saying is, besides the NT, what other evidence is there?
https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence


This is a good start!

So, the article mentions Flavius Josephus, who was born 37 years after Jesus' crucifixion and " was around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who had seen and heard Jesus"

This seems to be built on the assumption that all early church members all saw and heard Jesus.

Are we just supposed to accept that assumption? If yes, then let's look at the statements: :

1.  "....one passage of Jewish Antiquities that recounts an unlawful execution, Josephus identifies the victim, James, as the "brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah."

Supposedly, Jesus has called his other apostles "his brothers," so which James are we talking about here?

Joseph did have a son named James, who would have been about 100+ since he supposedly died in 60s AD (Jesus died at 33 and james is supposed to be older). Lifespans at that time range from a low 35 to a high 80.

So, again, are we talking about the same guy?

2.  "Testimonium Flavianum," which describes a man "who did surprising deeds" and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate."


This statement is being debated with regards to it's authenticity, but since we know Josephus wasn't alive back then, we can probably assume he either heard it from those purported people in the know or assume he's simply recounting what was written in the bible. In my opinion, quoting someone or some passage doesn't validate what's being quoted.


eyeshaveit

Just a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 09:33:14 AMJust a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.
This site would not load for me either Eyes.  

If you would like to talk about your experiences I am here to listen.  

You have been a valued member and a mod during a very challenging time.  Thank you for all you have contributed over the years mate.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on August 07, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 09:33:14 AMJust a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.
This site would not load for me either Eyes. 

If you would like to talk about your experiences I am here to listen.

It's called Pulmonary Fibrosis -- I guess that's a blanket term (like rheumatism) that covers many different things. In my case they have ruled out any environmental cause and things like TB, etc. It's a progressive ongoing condition that scars your lungs. There is no cure and you end up drowning in a room full of air (LOL, hopefully unconscious). As a Marine I used to be able to run 20 miles and then settled in middle age to walking 5 miles each day, but now I can't walk 20 feet without falling into severe distress.

In my case it was first misdiagnosed as my heart and even on my first visit to a pulmonary doc -- he thought it was my heart, but a scan proved otherwise. There's an expensive medicine (Ofev) that delays the symptoms in some cases, but I tried it for a year without success and the GI side effects are not exactly a thrill. I'm now on 8 liters of oxygen and trying to hold on to my independence for another month or so and hoping that perhaps my heart will give out first.

I've had a wonderful life (just the best) but I am looking forward to even better things like meeting someone (anyone) from my childhood years because back then none of my extended family or any of my friends had a heavenly hope. I certainly did not so I want to be surprised.

Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.       
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

8livesleft

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on August 07, 2022, 10:41:16 AM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 09:33:14 AMJust a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.
This site would not load for me either Eyes. 

If you would like to talk about your experiences I am here to listen.

It's called Pulmonary Fibrosis -- I guess that's a blanket term (like rheumatism) that covers many different things. In my case they have ruled out any environmental cause and things like TB, etc. It's a progressive ongoing condition that scars your lungs. There is no cure and you end up drowning in a room full of air (LOL, hopefully unconscious). As a Marine I used to be able to run 20 miles and then settled in middle age to walking 5 miles each day, but now I can't walk 20 feet without falling into severe distress.

In my case it was first misdiagnosed as my heart and even on my first visit to a pulmonary doc -- he thought it was my heart, but a scan proved otherwise. There's an expensive medicine (Ofev) that delays the symptoms in some cases, but I tried it for a year without success and the GI side effects are not exactly a thrill. I'm now on 8 liters of oxygen and trying to hold on to my independence for another month or so and hoping that perhaps my heart will give out first.

I've had a wonderful life (just the best) but I am looking forward to even better things like meeting someone (anyone) from my childhood years because back then none of my extended family or any of my friends had a heavenly hope. I certainly did not so I want to be surprised.

Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

It sounds like you've lived a full and happy life of selfless service. I don't pray but I do sincerely hope that your days be with as much joy and as little pain as can be managed. 

Kiahanie

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 09:33:14 AMJust a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.

That disruption seems to have been common.

Thanks for stopping by, Eyes. I appreciate you sharing some of your last thoughts with us.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Kiahanie

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.       

True, but I will hold you in the Light.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Shnozzola

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 09:33:14 AMJust a quick note to say that I've had no problems with the rest of the Internet, but I have not been able to access IGI for the past several days. Sorry -- that leaves things unsaid/undone. And I'll be off the Internet by September 10 if not before. Please -- no tears -- it's been a learning experience that I would trade for a dish of homemade strawberry ice cream.
You know what the pope said, eyes, "we pray for the hungry,  and then we feed them, that's how prayer works."  🙂

All of us are right behind you, over these next years, all wishing for more homemade strawberry ice cream  (and Memphis barbecue, and walks along the ocean) and preparing to fade away.
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

maritime

From the town beyond the wall, Elie Wiesel -- it's been a long while, time to reread.
Quote...
   "I like surprises," Pedro said nonchalantly.
   There were tears in Michael's eyes. He had never felt as close to anyone. He would have liked to do something for him. Offer him a precious object. Suffer for him. Die for him. "Thank you, Pedro," he murmured.
   "You're welcome. There's nothing more pleasant than to surprise a little brother. If you could have seen yourself, framed in the doorway, you would have believed in the richness of existence--as I do--in the possibility of having it and sharing it. It's so simple! You see a musician in the street; you give him a thousand francs instead of ten; he'll believe in God. You see a woman weeping; smile at her tenderly, even if you don't know her; she'll believe in you. You see a forsaken old man; open your heart to him, and he'll believe in himself. You will have surprised them. Thanks to you, they will have trembled, and everything around them will vibrate. Blessed is he capable of surprising and being surprised. If I had a prayer to address to God, it would be, 'O God, surprise me. Bless me or damn me: but let thy benediction or thy punishment be a surprise.'" ...
North Star Polaris Sept 26, 2021 photo by JE

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PMIt's called Pulmonary Fibrosis -- I guess that's a blanket term (like rheumatism) that covers many different things. In my case they have ruled out any environmental cause and things like TB, etc. It's a progressive ongoing condition that scars your lungs. There is no cure and you end up drowning in a room full of air (LOL, hopefully unconscious). As a Marine I used to be able to run 20 miles and then settled in middle age to walking 5 miles each day, but now I can't walk 20 feet without falling into severe distress.

In my case it was first misdiagnosed as my heart and even on my first visit to a pulmonary doc -- he thought it was my heart, but a scan proved otherwise. There's an expensive medicine (Ofev) that delays the symptoms in some cases, but I tried it for a year without success and the GI side effects are not exactly a thrill. I'm now on 8 liters of oxygen and trying to hold on to my independence for another month or so and hoping that perhaps my heart will give out first.

I've had a wonderful life (just the best) but I am looking forward to even better things like meeting someone (anyone) from my childhood years because back then none of my extended family or any of my friends had a heavenly hope. I certainly did not so I want to be surprised.

Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     
Unfortunately I am very familiar with Pulmonary Fibrosis.  I lost my father in-law in January this year to this disease. Stoic and pragmatic, just like his daughter.  This brilliant man knew his fate but decided to live his best life until the last week and a half where he was admitted to hospital.  His last chapter was short and painless.  I knew him for 28 years and will miss him for all my days.

I am stoked you have had a full life and have the support of your family.

Every engaging story, every striking sunset, every meal shared with a loved one comes to an end. So are our days but I am glad to have shared them with awesome people. 

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Francis

Quote from: kevin on August 07, 2022, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: Francis on August 06, 2022, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: kevin on August 06, 2022, 10:24:19 PMbulls**t, francis. really. i'm surprised at you.

QuoteMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not, to make a strong rational reasonable case from the facts we do and can know... that Jesus was Resurrected and thus He demonstrated Himself to be God Incarnate.

i am aware of no verifiable facts on this matter. and i am aware of no reasonable case to be made from these non-verifiable facts.

whoa!

Why are you so angry and hostile and why do you have to use profanity and why can't you be calm and reasonable and have a civil discussion without so much drama and emotional turmoil?

I've always thought you were the classiest person in this forum.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to... but I'm talking about mundane historical facts and nothing more.  I never said that the Resurrection was a proven historical fact (Although I personally believe it was) because I know that miracles is not the purview of historians.  I'm talking about non-miraculous historical facts mined by historians and what we can infer from those historical facts.

I'm expressing my opinion that the Resurrection is the most  reasonable inference from the mundane non-miraculous historical facts (gleaned by the majority of historians and biblical scholars, atheists and theists alike)

I understand that you disagree with my opinion, but to use profanity to express a difference of opinion?  Is that civil and calm and reasonable?

I have never used profanity to disagree with your opinions, no matter how much I disagree with you.

Are you ok?  This is not the classy person I know.

Maybe you're having some difficulty on the job?

I care about you

francis, i will no longer read any response from you longer than my question.

your statement ^^^above regarding "verifiable facts" and "rationale reasonable" arguments is simple bulls**t.

if not, you can explain why right here.


I'm sorry to hear that.  I really am.  I always thought you were cool and classy and intelligent.  I'm sorry you feel the way you do.  But out of my admiration and respect for you, I will do as you say and leave you alone.

Take care my friend.  God bless

Francis

Quote from: 8livesleft on August 07, 2022, 12:40:14 AM
QuoteAnd you don't even know what the case for the existence of Jesus' historicity is.

Ok, besides the bible what else is it? Present your evidence here.
QuoteSecondly, you don't understand the criteria that historians use to determine the reliability of ancient historical accounts and in determining which parts of the ancient document can be assessed as historical.

What document besides the bible? Present it here.
QuoteThe burden of proof is on anyone who doubts your mom's veracity.

You obviously didn't understand what I said.
So, again, you can take away any single piece of evidence regarding a real person's existence, say a mother's claim and there will still be hundreds of other pieces of evidence available. Like the father, siblings, birth certificate, employment records, school records, albums, I can go all day.
So, in this case, remove the bible, what else can you use as evidence for Jesus?
Like for Alexander, for whom we have many many pieces of evidence from all over the region.

Get it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Secondly, you obviously didn't understand what I said.  Putting aside the different sources as listed in the above link, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Bible is.   The bible is NOT ONE SOURCE written by one person.  That is the mistake you are making and why I gently suggested that you don't understand how historians work nor what Historiography is or how it works.  The Bible is a COLLECTION of writings from different eyewitness accounts.

You even admit this fact in your post #187.  And yet you then turn around and say: "that's essentially the same source ".  This statement of yours shows just how myopic and uncomprehending you are about the historical method and the role of historians.  You appear to be a nice fellow, but your extreme bias has put blinders on you.

You even also admitted that it was good start when you were given another source for the historicity of Jesus by JST.  Did that persuade you?  No, even though these independent sources persuades historians to the point that they consider Jesus deniers are on the same level as fringe movements like the holocaust deniers and conspiracy nuts.

This again shows how your extreme bias puts blinders on you.

But even so, I consider you a friend.

Hope you and your family are well.


kevin

Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:03:58 PMI'm sorry to hear that.  I really am.  I always thought you were cool and classy and intelligent.  I'm sorry you feel the way you do.  But out of my admiration and respect for you, I will do as you say and leave you alone.

Take care my friend.  God bless


no, francis. ive never asked you to leave me alone.

i frequently ask you to be more concise, to address questions you are hiding from, and to satisfy the various burdens of proof that you like to avoid.

i am perfectly happy to continue this conversation. butr i don't have time to play word games or engage in rhetoric duels.

speak clearly, make your point, and don't dissemble. i will do the same. i am willing to continue on that basis. if you are not, our future conversations will all be very short.

you can change this relationship by responding to post 181. you made a positive statement that has obligated you to a burden of proof. i am still waiting for you to satisfy that obligation.
dare to know.

Francis

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

True, but I will hold you in the Light.

I know you mean well and that you are genuinely sincere in your concern for Eyes... and I don't want to diminish that.

But a word of caution: Satan can and does disguise himself as an angel of light.  So in order that we don't deceive ourselves and others, we would/should always want to be sure we know what "light" you are using and pointing to before we hold anyone up to it.

But I know you know this and I know you are an honest and a morally good person.

Hope you and your family are well.


Kiahanie

Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

True, but I will hold you in the Light.

I know you mean well and that you are genuinely sincere in your concern for Eyes... and I don't want to diminish that.

But a word of caution: Satan can and does disguise himself as an angel of light.  So in order that we don't deceive ourselves and others, we would/should always want to be sure we know what "light" you are using and pointing to before we hold anyone up to it.

But I know you know this and I know you are an honest and a morally good person.

Hope you and your family are well.

Keep your satanic bulls**t to yourself, Francis.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Kiahanie

Quote from: kevin on August 08, 2022, 05:40:18 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:03:58 PMI'm sorry to hear that.  I really am.  I always thought you were cool and classy and intelligent.  I'm sorry you feel the way you do.  But out of my admiration and respect for you, I will do as you say and leave you alone.

Take care my friend.  God bless


no, francis. ive never asked you to leave me alone.

i frequently ask you to be more concise, to address questions you are hiding from, and to satisfy the various burdens of proof that you like to avoid.

i am perfectly happy to continue this conversation. butr i don't have time to play word games or engage in rhetoric duels.

speak clearly, make your point, and don't dissemble. i will do the same. i am willing to continue on that basis. if you are not, our future conversations will all be very short.

you can change this relationship by responding to post 181. you made a positive statement that has obligated you to a burden of proof. i am still waiting for you to satisfy that obligation.

Post #s are outtasync again. I think this is what Kevin is referring to
https://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,66272.msg928156.html#msg928156
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Francis

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 08, 2022, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

True, but I will hold you in the Light.

I know you mean well and that you are genuinely sincere in your concern for Eyes... and I don't want to diminish that.

But a word of caution: Satan can and does disguise himself as an angel of light.  So in order that we don't deceive ourselves and others, we would/should always want to be sure we know what "light" you are using and pointing to before we hold anyone up to it.

But I know you know this and I know you are an honest and a morally good person.

Hope you and your family are well.

Keep your satanic bulls**t to yourself, Francis.

Take care my friend.  I hope you and your family are healthy and doing well.  God Bless

Kiahanie

Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 08, 2022, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

True, but I will hold you in the Light.
••••
But a word of caution: Satan can and does disguise himself as an angel of light.  So in order that we don't deceive ourselves and others, we would/should always want to be sure we know what "light" you are using and pointing to before we hold anyone up to it.
••••

Keep your satanic bulls**t to yourself, Francis.

Take care my friend.  I hope you and your family are healthy and doing well.  God Bless

Francis, I have tried to be tolerant of the sanctimonious arrogance evident in some of your posts. You have succeeded in prompting me to tell you where the devil lies.

Once upon a time Saul was walking to Damascus to attend some business when Satan appeared to him in a great light. Saul became Paul and led the community of Jesus followers away from the message of Jesus and toward the message of Satan.

On the Mountain Jesus declined earthly power, wealth, prestige. Look around at the "Christian" community. The followers of Paul have accepted the devil's bargain.

Paul never spoke for Jesus. Paul spoke for Satan, doing the devil's work because Jesus refused.

And you, a follower and promoter of Paul's deviltry, infer that the Light I have seen may have the same source as Saul's demon vision.

No Francis, you are still seeing through a glass darkly, through the smoky miasma of Saul's hallucination.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

8livesleft

QuoteThe bible is NOT ONE SOURCE written by one person.  That is the mistake you are making and why I gently suggested that you don't understand how historians work nor what Historiography is or how it works.  The Bible is a COLLECTION of writings from different eyewitness accounts.

Aren't all those ''different eyewitnesses" his followers or part of that same small group of people?

QuoteYou even also admitted that it was good start when you were given another source for the historicity of Jesus by JST.  Did that persuade you? No.

And I explained why I didn't find it convincing.

Quote even though these independent sources persuades historians

Oh, so you're appealing to authority now? So, if I find another historian that disagrees, what then?


So, those 2 pieces of documentary evidence are not enough to put Jesus on the same historical footing as Alexander.

Maybe King Arthur, Loch Ness Monster, Atlantis.

Which is not to say those things are fake. Look what happened to Troy, which was first mentioned in a story but was later found. So, the same thing could very well happen.
 


kevin

post 181




Quote from: kevin on August 06, 2022, 10:24:19 PMbulls**t, francis. really. i'm surprised at you.

QuoteMy point is that we DON'T HAVE to know a great deal of what claims about Jesus are historical or not, to make a strong rational reasonable case from the facts we do and can know... that Jesus was Resurrected and thus He demonstrated Himself to be God Incarnate.

i am aware of no verifiable facts on this matter. and i am aware of no reasonable case to be made from these non-verifiable facts.
dare to know.

8livesleft

Quote from: Kiahanie on August 08, 2022, 10:35:27 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 08, 2022, 09:07:40 PM
Quote from: Francis on August 08, 2022, 05:46:25 PM
Quote from: Kiahanie on August 07, 2022, 04:42:56 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on August 07, 2022, 01:07:47 PM••••
Don't get out your checkbook -- I lack for nothing except for maybe for prayers and those are hard to find around here.     

True, but I will hold you in the Light.
••••
But a word of caution: Satan can and does disguise himself as an angel of light.  So in order that we don't deceive ourselves and others, we would/should always want to be sure we know what "light" you are using and pointing to before we hold anyone up to it.
••••

Keep your satanic bulls**t to yourself, Francis.

Take care my friend.  I hope you and your family are healthy and doing well.  God Bless

Francis, I have tried to be tolerant of the sanctimonious arrogance evident in some of your posts. You have succeeded in prompting me to tell you where the devil lies.

Once upon a time Saul was walking to Damascus to attend some business when Satan appeared to him in a great light. Saul became Paul and led the community of Jesus followers away from the message of Jesus and toward the message of Satan.

On the Mountain Jesus declined earthly power, wealth, prestige. Look around at the "Christian" community. The followers of Paul have accepted the devil's bargain.

Paul never spoke for Jesus. Paul spoke for Satan, doing the devil's work because Jesus refused.

And you, a follower and promoter of Paul's deviltry, infer that the Light I have seen may have the same source as Saul's demon vision.

No Francis, you are still seeing through a glass darkly, through the smoky miasma of Saul's hallucination.

This is what I've been wondering about...

Because I've also read that Paul fundamentally changed christianity to what we see today and Islam pretty much says the same thing - that the bible was corrupted over time.

Anyway, when it comes to Saul or Paul, it could be theorized that this is simply a guy who saw an opportunity and grabbed it. Much like those televangelists or cult leaders we see today.