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God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.

Started by Teaspoon Shallow, January 02, 2021, 07:47:08 PM

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Kiahanie

The apostle Paul considered that "faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Paul also spoke of fsith, hope and love, "but the greatest of these is love.

Very interesting that Christianity's first theologian spoke not at all of logical proofs.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

AgnosticDamien

Yes many religious people , even if you spoke to them just 10 years ago, they had no shame admitting that their entire belief system is based on faith, in fact they would proclaim it's noble! But now they try to defend it using logic. They have realised faith isn't good enough and now try to employ other methods and tactics, dishonesty being a very common one. I mean, is anyone really impressed reading Francis's pooly formatted wall of text containing 5 million words? It's the biggest pile of crap you could ever read, even some Christians would feel embarresed reading his posts. He's totally deluded and doesn't even realise it.

8livesleft

QuoteYes many religious people , even if you spoke to them just 10 years ago, they had no shame admitting that their entire belief system is based on faith, in fact they would proclaim it's noble!

Brilliant strategy isn't it? Practically every ridiculous, illogical thing in the bible has some kind of fix. And it all hinges on the capacity of the person to accept the ridiculous or illogical and the more the person accepts, the more noble they are. It's amazing.

They're like this gigantic chinese corporation that makes fake products that they sell at a higher price than the real deal. And they always sell out!


AgnosticDamien

And parents teach this to their children, that faith is a virtue. They grow up, without ever question their religion and beliefs, and as a result become blind followers. It justifies anything. Slavery? Young Earth? Hey, that's my religion don't question it!!

Thankfully more and more people are questioning and leaving behind these harmful archaic ideas.

none

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on January 02, 2021, 07:47:08 PM
Francis and TS discuss the merits of this argument.

God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.

1. Every contingent thing has an explanation of its existence.
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is a transcendent, personal being.
3. The universe is a contingent thing.
4. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence.
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe is a transcendent, personal being.
– which is what everybody means by 'God'.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/does-god-exist1/


Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation
...
... virtual particles, which are always created in particle-antiparticle pairs.[4] Since they are created spontaneously without a source of energy, vacuum fluctuations and virtual particles are said to violate the conservation of energy. This is theoretically allowable because the particles annihilate each other within a time limit determined by the uncertainty principle. However, these theoretically useful virtual particles are not directly observable.[4][3] The uncertainty principle states the uncertainty in energy and time can be related by[5] ? E ? t ? 1 2 ?   {\displaystyle \Delta E\,\Delta t\geq {\tfrac {1}{2}}\hbar ~} {\displaystyle \Delta E\,\Delta t\geq {\tfrac {1}{2}}\hbar ~}, where 1/2? ? 5,27286×10?35 Js. This means that pairs of virtual particles with energy ? E {\displaystyle \Delta E} \Delta E and lifetime shorter than ? t {\displaystyle \Delta t} \Delta t are continually created and annihilated in empty space. Although the particles are not directly detectable, the cumulative effects of these particles are measurable. For example, without quantum fluctuations the "bare" mass and charge of elementary particles is infinite; from renormalization theory the shielding effect of the cloud of virtual particles is responsible for the finite mass and charge of elementary particles. Another consequence is the Casimir effect. One of the first observations which was evidence for vacuum fluctuations was the Lamb shift in hydrogen. In July 2020 scientists report that they, for the first time, measured that quantum vacuum fluctuations can influence the motion of macroscopic, human-scale objects by measuring correlations below the standard quantum limit between the position/momentum uncertainty of the mirrors of LIGO and the photon number/phase uncertainty of light that they reflect.[6][7][8]
...
whelp. there you go
the universe comes from the same source as virtual particles.
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Inertialmass

+1 to Francis for disciplining himself to a first Reply readable in under 1 minute, moderately clearly stated, and without apparent, flagrant plagiarisms.






God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

Yup. Well done and consistent with past practice. When asked a question Francis becomes the questioner, the opening to the rabbit hole appears. . . .
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

none

looks like FrankieFvck opened with a big ol' can of retard.
what to do. what to do...
lol
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

8livesleft

Francis mentioned that he posted that as a reply to me and I believe I replied back. But at any rate, I'm still hung up on the 1st assertion that "God is the best explanation for our existence."

At best, "God" is a theory and not a very good one.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Kiahanie on January 10, 2021, 07:47:51 PM
Yup. Well done and consistent with past practice. When asked a question Francis becomes the questioner, the opening to the rabbit hole appears. . . .

I have never seen a debate where a participant refuses to define their terms and demand their interlocutor provide a counter argument prior to the preliminaries being established.

It is asinine and unreasonable. 


A reminder:

Quote from: Francis on December 22, 2020, 10:30:53 AM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on December 22, 2020, 06:53:06 AM
Quote from: Francis on December 22, 2020, 01:27:48 AM
1. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
2. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
3. God is the best explanation of the applicability of mathematics to the physical world.
4. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life
5. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
6. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.
7. The very possibility of God's existence implies that God exists.

1. Self refuting.
2. Argument from ignorance.
3. Not even a fallacy. 
4. Self refuting.
5. Self refuting.
6. Appeal to consequences.
7. Begging the question.  Who ever presents this as an actual argument does not understand reasoning.

I will take you task over every one of these Francis.  Care to test these arguments you think are valid and sound?



ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!  THANK YOU FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!!!  GOD BLESS YOU SIR!!!!!!!!!!

right now, it is 4am and I have to get some sleep.   And because Christmas is very close, I have a lot of work to do on my job to prepare for the coming Christmas festivities, so I won't be able to immediately start this welcomed and important conversation with you.

My past posts in the last couple of days didn't require much research or writing because they were obvious and simple to construct, and thus I didn't have to spend a lot of time.  I was able to quickly craft a response and squeeze them into my tight schedule.  But this discussion you want to have, will require more time and is more important and so I will I have to wait a couple of days because of my heavy work schedule.

Thank you for this opportunity

Merry Christmas
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

AgnosticDamien

At least the asshole has turned up. Though not in the best fashion. I predict the debate will take longer than it should. Francis should be charged with wasting people's time.

Teaspoon Shallow

I am feeling uncomfortable continuing this debate with Francis.
I will wait for his response but am leaning towards suspending it.

It does not appear to be the productive conversation in testing the 7 proposed arguments I was looking forward to.  I don't want to stress Francis and it appears he is stressed.

Take it easy Francis.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

AgnosticDamien

He's asshole for thinking slavery is ok and stoning people to death for Idol worship lmao. Dude's living in the past and believes in fairy tales. He's stressed because he's busy compiling his plagiarism work from Christian sites. He doesn't want an actual open debate, just regurgitation and copy paste arguments from whichever source he uses. You'll be better off talking to a brick wall.

Inertialmass

I've noticed a distinct, repeated pattern here among both atavistic religious apologists and among political conservatives.

It's either:  1) Oh woe is me I'm so much the long-suffering victim of your meanie-pooh persecution!, or  2) Fuk you lib!  I'm gettin' the AR-15 outta the trunk of the car!


God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.


AgnosticDamien

Oh no I broked the rules and posted in Francis's and TS's private thread were they where supposed to have a debayte. The post came here instead lol.