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What's the Most Universal Moral Principle?

Started by 8livesleft, October 14, 2020, 03:49:04 AM

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Dexter

Quote from: GratefulApe on December 21, 2020, 03:02:18 PM

The only moral principal that I get or have is should not murder. Murder can come in many different ways. You can physically murder someone, emotionally, financially, resources. So that's the only one I work with. But I don't see any real common ground when asking for "the most". It's an empty question.

Nonmaleficence is indeed a moral principle, but it goes beyond murder.
"Here is no water but only rock
Rock and no water and the sandy road"
― T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land

GratefulApe

The word quark comes to mind.


^GratefulApe, you might appreciate this conversation, Art Bell with Brian Greene, discussing the quark...

[noae]
Quote from: maritime on May 26, 2013, 02:38:03 PM
Finally signed up tonight to be an [Coast to Coast] 'insider' so I could listen to the Somewhere In Time program again to see what exactly was said about this 'approximate notion' which was a part of a discussion about a Theory of Everything.

starting at 7:00
Art Bell: Well, okay, let's go to the Big Bang. I am told, or it is my understanding, that something smaller than a quark--and I don't--have we yet actually seen--I don't think we've even seen a quark yet, have we?
Brian Greene: We've seen them indirectly. It's hard to see them directly. But the indirect evidence is monumental.
B: That there are quarks.
G: That there are quarks.
B: But it's so small that we have to sort of imagine they're true.
G: In some sense that's correct.
B: And so something smaller than a quark became everything that is, all the planets, all the suns, all these nebulas and galaxies.
G: Yeah.
B: All of this.
G: All of that. In fact, I'd even take it one step further. Even space and time themselves emerged from that thing that was smaller than a quark at the beginning.
B: Fine. Let's go back to a second before the Big Bang, one second before the Big Bang. That would mean there was this tiny, infinitesimal nothing sitting in the middle of what?
G: Well, that's a somewhat common misconception, that the Big Bang was sort of some tiny nugget sitting inside of outer space and then it kind of exploded.
B: But there couldn't have been space though.
G: That's right. That's the point. There was no space. So in fact, that little tiny nugget was where you're sitting, it's where I'm sitting, and it's where every listener is currently sitting, 'cause all of those places which are now different were all the same at the beginning of time. So that little nugget that we were talking about was everywhere that we now call different because all those different places were the same.
B: God. So there was no space, hence there was no time as we understand it.
G: That's right.
B: But still, this little tiny, tiny mass, uhm, had to have been someplace. It had to have been--Excuse my mind for not embracing this quickly but it had to have been some place. And there's still-- How could there ever not be space? It's like saying, Out past the limit of the Big Bang, what's there?
G: Right, right. It's a hard idea to really encompass. But the notion that space extends all the way out to the farthest reaches of the cosmos is something that's true today but the universe gets smaller as you run the cosmic film backwards in time. And all of space itself actually shrinks together so that there is no notion of beyond where our universe ends, because our universe is everything, and it gets smaller and smaller as you run that film backwards and backwards in time.
B: You can actually do that? You could, take for example...
G: We can do that with our equations and our understanding of how the universe evolved.
B: In other words, you could look at suns and/or the marker quasars way out there and you could identify this one and that one and this one and that one and this one and that one, get a whole bunch of them, and then have a computer project backwards using the blue shift that we see...
G: Absolutely.
B: No, I'm sorry, red shift, I guess, right?
G: And it would become a blue shift in reverse...
B: It would become a blue shift as everything withdrew to one single point. You're telling me that works?
G: Absolutely. Now I should say that it works prior to our recent research. If you go back to a mere split second after the Bang, but at a tiny fraction of a second after the Bang, the previous way of seeing things does break down.  That computer would go haywire, smoke would start to pour out of it, if it was only using equations that Einstein set down and the founders of quantum theory set down in the 30s and 40s. But now we've been able to modify those equations so that the computer can go even further back in time without smoke pouring out of it. And our hope is that these new equations will allow us to go right back to the beginning, to time zero.
B: Time zero. The moment when time began.
G: That's right.
B: Now it was explained to me I thought rather elegantly that there could not be time until there were at least two objects. In other words, that there could be a reference from one object to another in movement or in something or another. That would be the beginning of time. Is that reasonable?
G: It's reasonable. I understand where that notion comes from because we think of time as the relationship between events. One event occurs before the other and that invokes a notion of time. And if there aren't things in the universe that can make things happen, if there aren't any happenings, is there really a concept of time? I however am not completely enamoured with that way of thinking about time but I'm willing to accept it.
B: What alternative would you offer as a possibility?
G: Well, I think that time is actually an approximate notion. And I think space is actually an approximate notion.
B: An approximate notion?
G: That's right. Now you're going to say, an approximate notion to what?
B: Yes.
G: And that really is where the current cutting edge of research is going on in a very vigorous way today. Everything that we're doing in our current research in physics in trying to build a unified theory is pointing towards the idea that time and space are very useful ideas when we're describing the universe and when we go about our lives. In fact, they're very useful ideas but they're not as fundamental as we might have originally thought, that they're going to ultimately be replaced by something more subtle, more profound, and we're going to ultimately see that space and time as we know them emerge from these more basic starting points. We haven't yet figured out what those more basic starting points are but everything points towards their existence. ...

http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,63706.120.html


GratefulApe

Quote from: Dexter on December 21, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: GratefulApe on December 21, 2020, 03:02:18 PM

The only moral principal that I get or have is should not murder. Murder can come in many different ways. You can physically murder someone, emotionally, financially, resources. So that's the only one I work with. But I don't see any real common ground when asking for "the most". It's an empty question.

Nonmaleficence is indeed a moral principle, but it goes beyond murder.

Oh jeeze is that a military term?

GratefulApe

Quote from: Dexter on December 21, 2020, 02:57:05 PM
I think it would be beneficial to provide a list of moral principles to choose from. A lot of the suggestions aren't actually moral principles.

How would you start the list? When people start talking about morals my mind doesn't really do a very good job pointing fingers at too many things like others seem to have this made up mind about the severity of crossing a moral boundary. Some people say that lying is immoral, cheating, stealing, things like that. I don't outright call those things immoral but it is bad behaviour. To me something that is immoral would be something on the scale of ruining something. The most severe thing I can think of is murdering or a premeditated desire to change someone's life for the worse on purpose.

Morals are principles more than they are laws but people want to treat them like laws so that they can put everyone under a category.

AgnosticDamien

10 commandments does a pretty s**tty job, THAT I can say.

GratefulApe

Quote from: AgnosticDamien on December 24, 2020, 11:23:15 AM
10 commandments does a pretty s**tty job, THAT I can say.

The ten commandments were part of the Mosaic Law. The mosaic law was rendered inoperative at the ascension. The ten commandments are rules for living.

GratefulApe

Quote from: Dexter on December 21, 2020, 03:08:21 PM
Quote from: GratefulApe on December 21, 2020, 03:02:18 PM

The only moral principal that I get or have is should not murder. Murder can come in many different ways. You can physically murder someone, emotionally, financially, resources. So that's the only one I work with. But I don't see any real common ground when asking for "the most". It's an empty question.

Nonmaleficence is indeed a moral principle, but it goes beyond murder.

Without looking the word up does nonmaleficence mean something like sedition?

AgnosticDamien

Quote from: GratefulApe on December 24, 2020, 11:43:23 AM
Quote from: AgnosticDamien on December 24, 2020, 11:23:15 AM
10 commandments does a pretty s**tty job, THAT I can say.

The ten commandments were part of the Mosaic Law. The mosaic law was rendered inoperative at the ascension. The ten commandments are rules for living.

Moses never existed so it should be rendered inoperative by DEFAULT.

Kiahanie

Quote from: AgnosticDamien on December 20, 2020, 05:39:02 PM
There's a great bias in the west. Nazis are widely critisized, but Israelis get a free pass. How does that work? Israelis are no different to how Nazis were. They are doing to Palestinians what was done to them.
Beginning in the late 50's (following Mossadeghi's overthrow) Israel was effectively an agent of U.S. foreign policy in the Mideast, a surrogate. Israel benefited from our protective mantle as they helped keep, but that cover is fraying as our policies have increased the volatility of the region as encouraged Israel on a political course that has moved away from democracy as it moved into a combative stance with its neighbors.

They did our dirty work and for that we give them a pass on meeting standards of democracy and national behavior.

IMNSHO, Israel sold their national soul for short-term term security.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Inertialmass

QuoteThe USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy motor torpedo boats, on 8 June 1967, during the Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two marines, and one civilian NSA employee), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship. At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.

Israel apologized for the attack, saying that the USS Liberty had been attacked in error after being mistaken for an Egyptian ship. Both the Israeli and U.S. governments conducted inquiries and issued reports that concluded the attack was a mistake due to Israeli confusion about the ship's identity. Others, including survivors of the attack, have rejected these conclusions and maintain that the attack was deliberate.

In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3.32 million (equivalent to US$24.4 million in 2019) to the U.S. government in compensation for the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3.57 million ($24.9 million in 2019) to the men who had been wounded. In December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million ($18.6 million in 2019) as the final settlement for material damage to Liberty itself plus 13 years of interest...

A communication to the Israeli ambassador on 10 June, by Secretary Rusk stated, among other things:

At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. ... Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air ... Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. ... The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#Visual_contact


Kiahanie, there are dozens if not hundreds of Israeli terror activities and incidents which have severely damaged the US and damaged our whole world and which belie the notion that White racist European Apartheid colonialist Zionism is anything other than out for its own selfish ends.


God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

Quote from: Inertialmass on December 25, 2020, 12:52:01 AM
Kiahanie, there are dozens if not hundreds of Israeli terror activities and incidents which have severely damaged the US and damaged our whole world and which belie the notion that White racist European Apartheid colonialist Zionism is anything other than out for its own selfish ends.
IM, here are dozens of not hundreds of US terror activities, coups, military actions (and supporting third parties -e.g. Israel- in their endeavors) which have severely damaged the US and damaged our whole whole world.

You need not quote old news at me. I am extensively read on the role of Israel in the middle East and beyond. We are probably looking at the same data and analyzing it differently.

I am always astounded at the way some genuinely progressive folk refuse to see the role the US has played in determining Israel's foreign and domestic policies, as if Israel alone in the entire region is an autonomous actor. These folks seem always ready to point at US militarism and foreign interference, but there is a curiously blind spot when it comes to US sponsorship of Israel and its aggressive expansionism.

I suggest Steven Zunes' Tinderbox for background.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Shnozzola

Getting old, and I'm sure I've said this before, but a thing I've always respected about the mennonite church is their support of the Palestinians and how they  have been treated.

https://www.fosna.org/mennonite-win-release

https://mennopin.org/brief-history-of-mennonite-involvement-in-palestine-israel/
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

Inertialmass

QuoteJonathan Jay Pollard (born August 7, 1954) is a former intelligence analyst for the United States government. In 1987, as part of a plea agreement, Pollard pleaded guilty to spying for and providing top-secret classified information to Israel. He was sentenced to life in prison for violations of the Espionage Act.

Pollard is the only American who has received a life sentence for passing classified information to an ally of the U.S. In defense of his actions, Pollard declared that he committed espionage only because "the American intelligence establishment collectively endangered Israel's security by withholding crucial information". Israeli officials, U.S.-Israeli activist groups, and some U.S. politicians who saw his punishment as unfair lobbied continually for reduction or commutation of his sentence. The Israeli government acknowledged a portion of its role in Pollard's espionage in 1987, and issued a formal apology to the U.S., but did not admit to paying him until 1998. Over the course of his imprisonment, Israel made repeated unsuccessful attempts through both official and unofficial channels to secure his release. He was granted Israeli citizenship in 1995.

Opposing any form of clemency were many active and retired U.S. officials, including Donald Rumsfeld, d**k Cheney, former CIA director George Tenet; several former U.S. Secretaries of Defense; a bi-partisan group of U.S. congressional leaders; and members of the U.S. intelligence community. They maintained that the damage to U.S. national security due to Pollard's espionage was far more severe, wide-ranging, and enduring than publicly acknowledged. Though Pollard argued that he only supplied Israel with information critical to its security, opponents pointed out that he had no way of knowing what the Israelis had received through legitimate exchanges, and that much of the data he compromised had nothing to do with Israeli security. Pollard revealed aspects of the U.S. intelligence gathering process, its "sources and methods". He sold numerous closely guarded state secrets, including the National Security Agency's ten-volume manual on how the U.S. gathers its signal intelligence, and disclosed the names of thousands of people who had cooperated with U.S. intelligence agencies...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard


Does this seriously sound like moral little Israel plays compliant little puppet to the US's o'erweaning demands???   ||unsure||


God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

^^^^^^If you are talking to me, I have never claimed Israel is moral, or even  even right in its domestic and foreign policies.

Why pick a fight on this???
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Inertialmass

^^^^  Oh gosh, sorry.  I just thought, since you had said this...


Quote from: Kiahanie on December 25, 2020, 12:05:12 AM
...Israel was effectively an agent of U.S. foreign policy in the Mideast, a surrogate... They did our dirty work... Israel sold their national soul for short-term term security. 


... that you would be interested to give some examples or some evidence.  Particularly while protesting during the Iraq Invasion I'd seen folks proffer this supposition of Israel as beleaguered little David to Washington's grumpy Goliath but I was never clear on their empirical basis for the claim.  Obviously you don't have to if you don't want to.     



God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

I suggested you read Tinderbox. There are more examples than I can relate. I have already read all the stuff you posted long ago. How about you read Tinderbox?

"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Inertialmass

Tinderbox: U.S. Foreign Policy and the Roots of Terrorism is there on my bookshelf randomly sandwiched between Walden Two, Skinner;  Sharing the Land of Canaan, Qumsiyeh;  Deliberate Deceptions, Findley;  a dog-eared mimeograph copy of The Iron Wall (We and the Arabs), Jabotinsky;  Resurrecting Empire, Khalidi;  and Walden, Thoreau... 


Zunes thoroughly documenting that the US is a huge exporter of arms to the ME is not at all equivalent to Zunes proving that the American tail wags the hapless Israeli dog.  Er, matter of fact, a whole whole lotta people all around the world say it's just the opposite, and that the Israel Lobby wags Congress into -- reluctantly or not -- facilitating Zionist land and water theft, ethnic cleansing, Apartheid, and the ongoing mass murder of innocent Canaanites.


QuoteStephen Zunes and the Zionist Tinderbox

...This gross underestimation of the power of the Israel lobby is almost identical to Noam Chomsky's arguments which have already been thoroughly rebutted elsewhere. Thus it is fitting that Zunes, like Chomsky, plays the oil card, and says that the "primary reason" why the U.S. supports Israel is because of their need to control oil supplies, which is facilitated by Israel's ability to prevent "victories by radical nationalist movements" in the Middle East. As before, this is an erroneous, unsupported statement that has been convincingly debunked.

Either way if one follows Zunes' assertion that aid to Israel threatens their national security, "should U.S. policy," Zunes asks, "then, really be considered 'pro-Israel?'" He argues not: such aid is counterproductive, as it endangers Israel by encouraging militaristic elements within Israel's ruling class. This inelegant mislogic is used to bolster his case that U.S. support for Israel must be predominantly driven by arms manufacturers and big oil; no need for hard evidence though.
https://pulsemedia.org/2010/05/12/stephen-zunes-and-the-zionist-tinderbox/



God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

So don't read Zunes, just read what people say about him.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Inertialmass

As I just said, I own the book.  I'm looking at it sitting on my shelf six feet from my nose.  I read it like fifteen or more years ago and recall being unimpressed.  Political propaganda is fine and normal but I expect its purveyor to follow the assertion with the evidence. 

The author who most tugs my heartstrings on this topic, for whatever reason, is Edward Said.


QuoteWith an unexceptionally Arab family name like "Saïd", connected to an improbably British first name (my mother much admired Edward VIII the Prince of Wales in 1935, the year of my birth) I was an uncomfortably anomalous student all through my early years: a Palestinian going to school in Egypt, with an English first name, an American passport, and no certain identity, at all. To make matters worse, Arabic, my native language, and English, my school language, were inextricably mixed: I have never known which was my first language, and have felt fully at home in neither, although I dream in both. Every time I speak an English sentence, I find myself echoing it in Arabic, and vice versa.

—?Between Worlds, Reflections on Exile and Other Essays




God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.

Kiahanie

^^^^^^^
Edward Said is greatly unappreciated in this country. He was a thoughtful and determined advocate for the Palestinians. He was a great loss to Palestine and the international peace community, and even to any lingering hope for  peace in Israel.

++++++

I will try to summarize how I view Israel's role in the Middle East. What attracted me to Zunes' framework is that he approached the Israeli-Palestine conflict through the lens of U.S. Foreign policy, which was what I was doing although not consciously or rigorously. That is all he is responsible for in what follows below.

Throughout our history the United States has supported authoritarian governments and dictatorships that were willing to do two things:

1) Make their country safe for American capitalism. This requred, among other things, suppressing local "economic nationalism" in favor of external investment.

2) Resist and obstruct socialist parties and oppose socialist states.
In exchange those governments were pretty much given free reign to do as they will with their own people, particularly indigenous people. Foreign policy needed to follow US policy. This regime began in the United Fruit banana republics and was carried into southeast Asia in the '50s and '60s. Israel was invited to play in the early 50s, the sandbox being the Iranian counter-revolution.

The United States did not have significant intelligence resources in the Middle East after WWIi, and relied heavily on the British Secret Service. Following the Iranian counter revolution the US used Israel as a foward outpost monitoring the politics of the Arab nations. Later Israel became an armed outpost carrying out activities too sensitive for the US.

The contract, of course, allows Israel to pursue its own nefarious activities as long as they do not compromise US foreign policy. They were about to exceed their brief when Trump took over. I am not hopeful that Clinton would have done much better than Trump in that respect, alttough she would not have done some of DJTs more egregious stunts (capital, embassy, etc.)

Israel has obstructed the socialist Ba'ath Party throughout the region, not for any direct benefit to itself, but because the party is explicitly socialist and was promoting national economic interests ( "economic nationalism") in today's terms.

Israel supported the Shah of Iran because the Shah supported US ownership of Iran's petroleum reserves, and also because the Shah ruthlessly suppressed any suggestion of nationalization (as well as anyone else who opposed him, but that was allowable under the contract).

And so it went throughout the region, just as it went in the southern Americas. That is the outline.

Saying that the US is as responsible for Pinochet's crimes as Pinochet himself, that the US enabled, supported and financed Pinochet's oppression does not lessen Pinochet's guilt. So it is with Israel, Netanyahu and his predecessors.
In no real world does the tail wag the dog.I

*   *   *   *

That is my approach to the issue. You have read Zunes and are unimpressed, you decide to use some other framework, one that I last encountered in a white nationalist / supremacist IRL forum, where the very same quotes you have been using were used with exactly the same technique: pulling incidents out of historical and political context to make Israel solely responsible for their crimes. That forum used this methodology explicitly to defame Jews everwhere. I do note with approval you are not going that far.

My dealing with those groups exacerbated my PTSD. So does dealing with you on this. I was interested in offering a more holistic view of the issue. You prefer a simplistic narrow view. OK, but you are walking in some very dirty bootprints that left marks on me, so I will not be engaging with you on this topic anymore.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

Inertialmass

^^^^  Once again you offer no evidence whatsoever that big boogie man America controls poor hapless little Israel solely to -- what? -- control world oil? -- sell arms? -- counter the Commies?  You offer an opinion.  That's fine.


God and religion are not conveyances of Truth or Comfort.  They function as instruments of earthly social control.