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All Israel will be saved

Started by Case, December 12, 2018, 02:24:52 AM

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GratefulApe

Quote from: Case on July 18, 2019, 09:22:43 AM
Perhaps. GA, I'm glad you decided to join the conversation. I'm interested in what you have to say.

What do you mean "restored"? I believe the Jewish people will en masse accept Christ as their Messiah. Is that what you mean?

I agree with you about the 144,000. Scripture says they are Jews, even listing their tribes, not elect Gentile Christians today.

My understanding goes along the lines of, Restored is that Israel will possess all of the promised land as explained in the Bible. Which we see unfolding now. The 6 day war. The fact that Israel is its own state and more to come.

My understanding is that the 144,000 will be 144,000  Jesus Messiah believing Jewish people before the tribulation. At the tribulation the Nation of Israel will see their error and ask Messiah to return. Then Jesus will return.

GratefulApe

I did some reading in order to find the verse about the Jewish people asking for the Messiah to return. It's this one. It really is a declarative statement. The outcome is the same.

Zechariah 13:8-9

8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
    and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"

GratefulApe

Here are a couple more prophecies about the restoration of Israel. I'm not going to go much further with this as it mostly feels like I'm talking into a barrel it being the internet and all but these are some of the things I have studied. This teaching was called the Basis for the second coming. What I see in these verses is that God definitely has a plan for the Jewish people over and beyond what He has for the Church. So the Church does not replace Israel. These confessions have to be made by the Nation of Israel or at least the saved remnant of Israel that is to come.



Hosea 5:15

15 I will go away and return to My place
Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

Leviticus 26:40-42

40 "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies—if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.


Tom

Quote from: GratefulApe on July 18, 2019, 05:35:20 PM
I did some reading in order to find the verse about the Jewish people asking for the Messiah to return. It's this one. It really is a declarative statement. The outcome is the same.

Zechariah 13:8-9

8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, 'They are my people';
    and they will say, 'The Lord is my God.'"

Sadly, this passage has been translated around the notion that God Promised Abraham a possession of "land" rather than an inheritance in the whole earth.  Because of this flawed understanding of God's purposes for all of mankind, the translators have provided a flawed English translation for us to ponder on and so we tend to come to the wrong conclusions.  Verse 8 above is speaking of the "whole earth" where the descendants of Israel have been scattered to, not just the descendants that have presently returned to the so called "Promised Land."

Shalom

Tom

Quote from: GratefulApe on July 18, 2019, 08:41:36 PM
Here are a couple more prophecies about the restoration of Israel. I'm not going to go much further with this as it mostly feels like I'm talking into a barrel it being the internet and all but these are some of the things I have studied. This teaching was called the Basis for the second coming. What I see in these verses is that God definitely has a plan for the Jewish people over and beyond what He has for the Church. So the Church does not replace Israel. These confessions have to be made by the Nation of Israel or at least the saved remnant of Israel that is to come.



Hosea 5:15

15 I will go away and return to My place
Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

Leviticus 26:40-42

40 "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, 41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies—if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity, 42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.

I agree with your understanding.  Many of the previous "scholars" have not really understood the purposes of God or that He will restore the Nation of Israel and gather them to Himself where they are presently scattered throughout the whole earth.  God intends to plant them in a fertile field as He spoke about in the parable of the sower during the last 1,000 years before the GWTR judgement.  If the parable of the Sower is read in conjunction with Ezekiel 47:1-12, we can see how each passage complements the other and provides the right understanding of the timeline of the End times.

Matt 24:32 informs us that from 1948, 91 plus years will pass before the beginning of the next age, when all of the righteous of Israel will be redeemed, after the nations are judged at Armageddon, and God makes like new again His original Kingdom of Priests, a Holy nation and His Possession among the Nations, Covenant, that He had original made with the Nation of Israel at MT Sinai, but which they had also rebelled again at the bottom of the mountain.

But to come to this understanding we have to understand what the purpose of the Abrahamic Covenant was original for, and not heed what men believe if was.

Shalom

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Case on July 18, 2019, 09:48:05 AM
Hmm, there are many ways one could interpret this phenomenon. Did it cause anyone to doubt the validity of the organization?

No, not that I am aware.  The only time that I am aware of people falling away was when they predicted Armageddon would almost immediately follow 1914.

QuoteI find this interpretation to be interesting, but I don't understand why you don't think Christ was king prior to 1914. Didn't he ascend to the throne?

No, after his resurrection Christ ascended to the right hand of God.  It was some time afterward that he would be told "go subduing in the midst of your enemies".

"Jehovah declared to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet."
2

Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying:
"Go subduing in the midst of your enemies." (Psalm 110:1,2)

Witnesses believe verse one was fulfilled when Jesus was resurrected.  They believe verse two was to be fulfilled at the beginning of the last days with his first act being casting Satan from heaven and this has what has caused the time of troubles that began in 1914.

They believe Christ was head of the Church this whole time but was not acting as king of the whole earth.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: GratefulApe on July 17, 2019, 02:28:53 PM

shouldn't the question be will Israel be restored?

There is plenty of Bible verse about it. but the replacement theology isn't having it. they say that the church is Israel. They dismiss the land covenant in the Scriptures.

And the JW's think they are the 144,000. Again replacement theology.

No that is not quite right.  Witnesses believe the 144,000 is Israel (the elect).  They believe they have been being elected since the time of Christ with the apostles being the first individually being elected by Christ.  Today, they believe there is only a remnant left which they believe are being gathered into their organization.

They believe all other Christians through history, including modern day JWs, make up the "great crowd that no one was able to number". (Rev 7:9)
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

GratefulApe

I learned something new about the 144,000. I had always thought that the 144,000 were saved Jewish believers and that that number made up the total of saved Jewish individuals after the rapture of the church. Turns out the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists and the number of saved is much more. I believe those 144,000 Jesus Messiah believing individuals help to establish the national regeneration of the state of Israel.

Case

My working hypothesis is that the 144,000 is symbolizes those saved before Christ's incarnation (the Old Covenant) and the great multitude is New Covenant believers. Or perhaps the former are Israelite/Jewish believers and the latter are Gentile believers.

Jst, I don't see how the 144,000 could be the elect as the JWs understand it. They are described as coming from the various Israelite tribes. Most modern-day JWs are Gentiles. How do you reconcile this?
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Case on March 29, 2020, 02:14:17 AM
My working hypothesis is that the 144,000 is symbolizes those saved before Christ's incarnation (the Old Covenant) and the great multitude is New Covenant believers. Or perhaps the former are Israelite/Jewish believers and the latter are Gentile believers.

Jst, I don't see how the 144,000 could be the elect as the JWs understand it. They are described as coming from the various Israelite tribes. Most modern-day JWs are Gentiles. How do you reconcile this?

To be clear, Witnesses believe more than modern day Witnesses are part of the 144,000 elect.  We believe the first of them were the twelve apostles,  since then Christ has been choosing "people from all nations" through the centuries to make up the full number of them.  Witnesses believe only a remnant are left to seal.

You have to remember that Gentiles were grafted into Israel and with it the tribes.  In this way Gentiles and fleshly Jews alike make up a new nation of spiritual Jews.  The seat of the kingdom is no longer earthly Jerusalem, but it is the "New Jerusalem" that "comes down" [extends it rulership] from heaven.  These are the ones that live in the "new heaven" and they rule over the "new earth" [ones that live through Armageddon and resurrected ones afterward].

As the apostle points out earthy Jerusalem and the worship around it was a "shadow" of the heavenly [spiritual] realities that were to come.  Earthly Jerusalem was a prophetic pattern for God's heavenly kingdom.  Everything that was earthly has become heavenly.  Everything that was fleshly has become spiritual.  It is no longer circumcision of the flesh that matters but "circumcision of the heart", remember?

This is how I understand it.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

#70
There was a time Witnesses thought there would be a mass conversion of Jews in the "last days" but they no longer do.  They now believe the "kings and their armies" that are destroyed at Armageddon will include the Jewish ones, but also believe there will be a "great crowd" of people from all nations that will be spared.  This includes Jews. 

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Dexter

@Jstwebbrowsing
In relative terms, do you think the end times will occur over decades or centuries?
"Here is no water but only rock
Rock and no water and the sandy road"
― T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Dexter on April 27, 2020, 07:29:07 PM
@Jstwebbrowsing
In relative terms, do you think the end times will occur over decades or centuries?

According to my understanding of the Bible and based on Mt 24:34, the end times take place during a "generation".  This has created difficulty for Witnesses, and beliefs have been modified over the years.  The challenge is that "generation" is used in different ways in the Bible, and Witnesses have been unclear on exactly how Jesus is here using the word.  As used elsewhere in the Bible, generation can refer to different lengths of time.  Just going from memory, it can mean 100 years.  It can be used to refer to the length of time between parent and child.  It can refer to the life spans of all contemporaries living at a certain time.  It can apply to overlapping life spans, two generations effectively being called one.  Gen 2:4 applies it to possibly millions or billions of years although I feel confident Jesus wat not referencing millions or billions of years.

So to include all the possibilities I would maybe 40-200 years.  I will point out that the "end times" are sort of divided into three time periods.  In order they are "the Last Days", "the Great Tribulation", and the "War of Armaggedon".

The lasts days are the "beginning of a time of troubles".  This is the longest lapse of time.  It is the build up.  Then a particular event marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  This is expected to progress rapidly into a condition in which "no flesh would survive".  For the record, the last days and the tribulation are indiscriminent and are not caused by Jehovah but by the misrule of men.  Once things reach that point, then Christ acts to preserve life on earth beginning with the destruction of "the kings of the earth and their armies".  Those that God judges responsible for the imminent destruction of all flesh are themselves destroyed.  The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".

The "end times" is really only an end of man's misrule of the earth. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Mr. Blackwell

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
... The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".



I wonder how many trillions of people have died since the fall of man. I would hate to be in charge of the welcoming committee for that party. Talk about a logistical nightmare. Will the resurrected need food, water and shelter? Clothes?
At this time the answer is not no. The question is why?

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell on April 28, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
... The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".



I wonder how many trillions of people have died since the fall of man. I would hate to be in charge of the welcoming committee for that party. Talk about a logistical nightmare. Will the resurrected need food, water and shelter? Clothes?

I've seen estimates of 100-120 billion.

Yes people will still need those things.  But they won't need hospitals, the military industrial complex, or things similar to that so that will free up a lot of space.  As well the Bible says even the deserts will burst with springs.  Also, everyone is not resurrected at once.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Mr. Blackwell

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 03, 2020, 05:23:23 AM
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell on April 28, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
... The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".



I wonder how many trillions of people have died since the fall of man. I would hate to be in charge of the welcoming committee for that party. Talk about a logistical nightmare. Will the resurrected need food, water and shelter? Clothes?

I've seen estimates of 100-120 billion.
even if the earth were only 6 to 10 thousand years old that seems like a low ball estimate if you are counting all of humanity that ever existed.

QuoteYes people will still need those things.  But they won't need hospitals, the military industrial complex, or things similar to that so that will free up a lot of space.  As well the Bible says even the deserts will burst with springs.  Also, everyone is not resurrected at once.

Where in the scripture does it lay out those details?
At this time the answer is not no. The question is why?

Dexter

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
[

According to my understanding of the Bible and based on Mt 24:34, the end times take place during a "generation".  This has created difficulty for Witnesses, and beliefs have been modified over the years.  The challenge is that "generation" is used in different ways in the Bible, and Witnesses have been unclear on exactly how Jesus is here using the word.  As used elsewhere in the Bible, generation can refer to different lengths of time.  Just going from memory, it can mean 100 years.  It can be used to refer to the length of time between parent and child.  It can refer to the life spans of all contemporaries living at a certain time.  It can apply to overlapping life spans, two generations effectively being called one.  Gen 2:4 applies it to possibly millions or billions of years although I feel confident Jesus wat not referencing millions or billions of years.

So to include all the possibilities I would maybe 40-200 years.  I will point out that the "end times" are sort of divided into three time periods.  In order they are "the Last Days", "the Great Tribulation", and the "War of Armaggedon".

The lasts days are the "beginning of a time of troubles".  This is the longest lapse of time.  It is the build up.  Then a particular event marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  This is expected to progress rapidly into a condition in which "no flesh would survive".  For the record, the last days and the tribulation are indiscriminent and are not caused by Jehovah but by the misrule of men.  Once things reach that point, then Christ acts to preserve life on earth beginning with the destruction of "the kings of the earth and their armies".  Those that God judges responsible for the imminent destruction of all flesh are themselves destroyed.  The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".

The "end times" is really only an end of man's misrule of the earth.
We have been surviving on the grease in our dacks for 5000 years. If we are at the end of these times and moving to the next stage it will indeed take universal faith for humanity to survive.
"Here is no water but only rock
Rock and no water and the sandy road"
― T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land

Jstwebbrowsing

#77
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell on May 04, 2020, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 03, 2020, 05:23:23 AM
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell on April 28, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
... The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".



I wonder how many trillions of people have died since the fall of man. I would hate to be in charge of the welcoming committee for that party. Talk about a logistical nightmare. Will the resurrected need food, water and shelter? Clothes?

I've seen estimates of 100-120 billion.
even if the earth were only 6 to 10 thousand years old that seems like a low ball estimate if you are counting all of humanity that ever existed.

QuoteYes people will still need those things.  But they won't need hospitals, the military industrial complex, or things similar to that so that will free up a lot of space.  As well the Bible says even the deserts will burst with springs.  Also, everyone is not resurrected at once.

Where in the scripture does it lay out those details?

Those are the estimates I found with google.

Isaiah 2:1-4 and chapter 35 and Rev 21:1-5 all contain descriptions of life under Christ's kingdom.  No sick and no war and the earth itself will be blessed.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Dexter on May 05, 2020, 10:03:18 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 28, 2020, 02:37:08 PM
[

According to my understanding of the Bible and based on Mt 24:34, the end times take place during a "generation".  This has created difficulty for Witnesses, and beliefs have been modified over the years.  The challenge is that "generation" is used in different ways in the Bible, and Witnesses have been unclear on exactly how Jesus is here using the word.  As used elsewhere in the Bible, generation can refer to different lengths of time.  Just going from memory, it can mean 100 years.  It can be used to refer to the length of time between parent and child.  It can refer to the life spans of all contemporaries living at a certain time.  It can apply to overlapping life spans, two generations effectively being called one.  Gen 2:4 applies it to possibly millions or billions of years although I feel confident Jesus wat not referencing millions or billions of years.

So to include all the possibilities I would maybe 40-200 years.  I will point out that the "end times" are sort of divided into three time periods.  In order they are "the Last Days", "the Great Tribulation", and the "War of Armaggedon".

The lasts days are the "beginning of a time of troubles".  This is the longest lapse of time.  It is the build up.  Then a particular event marks the beginning of the Great Tribulation.  This is expected to progress rapidly into a condition in which "no flesh would survive".  For the record, the last days and the tribulation are indiscriminent and are not caused by Jehovah but by the misrule of men.  Once things reach that point, then Christ acts to preserve life on earth beginning with the destruction of "the kings of the earth and their armies".  Those that God judges responsible for the imminent destruction of all flesh are themselves destroyed.  The rest go on to participate in the restoration of the earth, and to welcome back the dead under the rulership of Christ and the "elect".

The "end times" is really only an end of man's misrule of the earth.
We have been surviving on the grease in our dacks for 5000 years. If we are at the end of these times and moving to the next stage it will indeed take universal faith for humanity to survive.

As I understand it, this is largely why God has permitted suffering.  Jehovah allowed man to set out with self-rule because of the rebellion, versus outright destruction.  After human rule ends with near self-destruction, God, with Christ as heavenly king, rules the earth for 1000 years and solves all human problems, and restores mankind to perfection.  At the end of it there is final judgment between the two forms of ruler ship.  Never again will it become an issue.

I would think atheists could appreciate this because it's about evidence rather than a prejudgment from God.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12