Romans 1 Recorded Discussion: Does the Bible Forbid Same-Sex Sexual Activity?

Started by eyeshaveit, April 23, 2018, 07:52:53 AM

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eyeshaveit

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

kevin

paul is saying tbat if you worship idols of men, and birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. then you shouldnt also be a male temple prostitute or visit them. and if you are or do, then god will abandon you to it.

  22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. note

26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

I never understood why you think the Bible's prohibition against homosexual acts is about prostitution.  Can you explain?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

 the references to "sodomite" in the OT all specifically refer to the kedeshah, jst. that's the word transalated as "sodomite," and it means sacred prostitute, the ones in the "houses," in the "groves . . ."

????
Quote??
qa?de?sh
kaw-dashe'
From H6942; a (quasi) sacred person, that is, (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: - sodomite, unclean.
Total KJV occurrences: 6

Spoiler
Hebrew Bible[edit]

The Hebrew Bible uses two different words for prostitute, zonah (???)?[17] and kedeshah (or qedesha) (????)?.[17] The word zonah simply meant an ordinary prostitute or loose woman.[17] But the word kedeshah literally means consecrated (feminine form), from the Semitic root q-d-sh (???)? meaning holy or set apart.[17] In spite of the cultic significance of a kedeshah to a follower of the Canaanite religion, the Hebrew Bible makes it clear that cultic prostitution had no place in Israelite or Judahite religion. Thus the Hebrew version of Deuteronomy 23:17-18 tells followers:
None of the daughters of Israel shall be a kedeshah, nor shall any of the sons of Israel be a kadesh.
You shall not bring the hire of a prostitute (zonah) or the wages of a dog (kelev) into the house of the Lord your God to pay a vow, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord your God.

Stephen O. Murray writes that biblical passages ban qdeshim and link them with gods and "forms of worship detested by orthodox followers of Yahweh".[18] Celia Brewer Sinclair has written that "the ethical demands of the covenant preclude worshiping Yahweh in licentious sexual rites (sacred sexual rites )".[19] Male priests who engaged in same-sex sacred prostitution were called kadesh or qadesh (literally: male holy one); the word evolved semantically in ancient Hebrew to take on a similar meaning to sodomite.[20][unreliable source] The Hebrew word kelev (dog) in the next line may also signify a male dancer or prostitute.[21] Some scholars see the injunctions against foreign worship, including male sacred prostitution, as possibly the original cause of what would later become Judaism's condemnation of sexual contact between men.[20][unreliable source] However, there are multiple examples of condemnation and instructions against male same-sex intercourse (e.g., Sodom and Gomorrah, Leviticus 20:13) in the Torah that predate Judaism.

In the Book of Ezekiel, Oholah and Oholibah appear as the allegorical brides of God who represent Samaria and Jerusalem. They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. Ezekiel condemns both as guilty of religious and political alliance with heathen nations.[22]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution#Hebrew_Bible

the israelites were specifically enjoined to avoid anything to do with canaanite religious practices:

Spoiler
Lev 19:19  Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
Lev 19:27  Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
Lev 19:28  Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Lev 20:23  And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
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in romans, homosexuality is literally listed as part of an idolatrous religious practice:

And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

there are various other nuances, but that is the big picture. the jews hated homosexuality, because it was part of the promiscuous acts of the canaanite worship. eventually, they just hated it for its own sake.

if you are a jew, it makes sense to follow the Law. if you are a christian, it doesn't. none of the prohibitions in th eOT have to do with ordinary same-sex committed partnerships. it's all cultic sex.

i don't know any homosexuals who worship "fourfooted beasts and creeping things" as part of their same-sex marriage.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

"Therefore, God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, so that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25

They exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the Creator, who is praised forever. Amen. 26

That is why God gave them over to uncontrolled sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27

likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error."

This is saying because of the false worship God gave them over the unnatural desires.  It may be true that homosexuals today don't worship those same things, but it appears the Bible views homosexuality itself as contrary to nature. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

not tbe bible, jst, the jews. the jews regarded it as contrary to nature. and you are not a jew.

we havent yet got into jesus christ and his apparent attitudes towards homosexuals. tbere are two incidents to discuss.

do you see what the kedeshaw were? looked up the references to tbe housez of tbe sodomitez?

romans is pretty clear that tbe focus iz on religious practice first, homosexuality second.

do you disagree?
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 01, 2018, 05:32:31 PM
do you see what the kedeshaw were? looked up the references to tbe housez of tbe sodomitez?

Yes, it appears they were consecrated prostitutes.

Quoteromans is pretty clear that tbe focus iz on religious practice first, homosexuality second.

Yes, it appears false religious practice came first, but it appears that homosexual desires were part of the results.

Quotenot tbe bible, jst, the jews. the jews regarded it as contrary to nature. and you are not a jew.

To me, it's just another part of being imperfect humans.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 02, 2018, 02:05:29 PM

Yes, it appears false religious practice came first, but it appears that homosexual desires were part of the results.


could be. if tbere were people around today who became homosexual tbrough worshipping statues of snakes and birds, we could ask them.

to me it seems like those parts of the bible were written to a specific people at a specific time and place, and we are not them.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 02, 2018, 05:01:35 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 02, 2018, 02:05:29 PM

Yes, it appears false religious practice came first, but it appears that homosexual desires were part of the results.


to me it seems like those parts of the bible were written to a specific people at a specific time and place, and we are not them.

Well yes.  I especially believe that in relation to the Laws of Moses. 

My primary focus is "Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God?s Kingdom."  (Gal 5:19-21)

My concern is God's Kingdom.  Homosexual acts are listed as sexually immoral acts.  However, my beliefs have a long term view of this.  God's Kingdom will not be truly inherited until after the 1000 year reign of Christ and the perfection of mankind.  By that time, I don't think it's going to be an issue.  All of those things will have been brought to an end.

I'm not saying that it's okay to then just go ahead and do all of these things because God's Kingdom will take care of it in the future because not everyone is by default a citizen.  The perfecting of mankind comes later, but the time for seeking God's kingdom is now.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

the greek word in that verse is arsenokoitai.

would you please look it up?

where it came from, and what tbe early usage was?


Philo's understanding that arsenos koiten refers to shrine prostitution is 2000 years old. It was a Jewish belief with which the Apostle Paul was familiar because Paul coins a new word describing temple prostitution using the Septuagint Greek words of Leviticus 20:13. Believing that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 refers to shrine or temple prostitution is not a modern belief invented by gays to alibi their "sin." It is the ancient Jewish and Christian belief for thousands of years.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 03, 2018, 11:11:35 AM
the greek word in that verse is arsenokoitai.

would you please look it up?

where it came from, and what tbe early usage was?


Philo's understanding that arsenos koiten refers to shrine prostitution is 2000 years old. It was a Jewish belief with which the Apostle Paul was familiar because Paul coins a new word describing temple prostitution using the Septuagint Greek words of Leviticus 20:13. Believing that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 refers to shrine or temple prostitution is not a modern belief invented by gays to alibi their "sin." It is the ancient Jewish and Christian belief for thousands of years.

Strong's:
Short Definition: a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity
Definition: a male engaging in same-gender sexual activity; a sodomite, pederast.
From arrhen and koite; a sodomite -- abuser of (that defile) self with mankind.

HELPS Word-studies:
733 arsenoko?t?s (from 730 /?rrh?n, "a male" and 2845 /ko?t?, "a mat, bed") ? properly, a man in bed with another man; a homosexual.

QuoteBelieving that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 refers to shrine or temple prostitution is not a modern belief invented by gays to alibi their "sin." It is the ancient Jewish and Christian belief for thousands of years.

I had not heard of this until you.  I don't think you are a gay trying to alibi your sin.  I am just trying to understand it.

QuotePhilo's understanding that arsenos koiten refers to shrine prostitution is 2000 years old.

Well I agree this would apply to prostitution but what reason is there to believe that it refers only to temple prostitution?

It also forbids pornos.  "A fornicator, man who prostitutes himself" (Strong's).  Do you think that is only a reference to prostitution?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

fornication is forbidden, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual fornication. but because the jews did not permit same-sex marriage, all active homosexuals were also fornicators. this was a problem with the law, not with the same-sex marriage.

QuoteI had not heard of this until you.  I don't think you are a gay trying to alibi your sin.  I am just trying to understand it.

you don't need to listen to me, jst. read your bible. it's all in there:

Deu_23:17  There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.

^^^ female whores and male sodomites. the implication is that both were prostututes.

1Ki_14:24  And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.


the full quote refers to religious practices:

Spoiler
1Ki 14:22  And Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins which they had committed, above all that their fathers had done.
1Ki 14:23  For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, on every high hill, and under every green tree.
1Ki 14:24  And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
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1Ki_15:12  And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

^^^ sodomites and idols, in the same sentence.


1Ki_22:46  And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.

^^^most of the temples and groves were removd by asa. jehoshaphat took out the rest.

2Ki_23:7  And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.


again, ^^^this verse is part of a general religious purge:

Spoiler
2Ki 23:4  And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Bethel.
2Ki 23:5  And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
2Ki 23:6  And he brought out the grove from the house of the LORD, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.
2Ki 23:7  And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
2Ki 23:8  And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beersheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a man's left hand at the gate of the city.
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what would be the "houses of the sodomites," next to the temple, next to the sacred groves, if they weren't religious in nature?

all of this is not popular among people who oppose normalizing homosexuality, because they don't read their bibles closely, jst. i'm not making it up, it's in your bible too.

every OT reference to the sodomites is part of an account having to do with religious practice, not committed same-sex unions.


the NT references, like corinthians, are more unclear. but the NT uses very unusual words in several places, and the implications are surprising.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 03, 2018, 05:40:07 PM
fornication is forbidden, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual fornication. but because the jews did not permit same-sex marriage, all active homosexuals were also fornicators. this was a problem with the law, not with the same-sex marriage.

But it appears the original meaning is tied to prostitution.  He wasn't just speaking about gay prostitution. Straight prostitution was a religious practice too.  So why expand pornos beyond temple prostitution? 

I agree those passages may have been specific references to religious practices.  But the question arises is what did Jehovah think of their practices in a nonreligious setting?  Do you think the only problem was the sex outside of marriage?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 03, 2018, 07:20:14 PM

But it appears the original meaning is tied to prostitution.  He wasn't just speaking about gay prostitution. Straight prostitution was a religious practice too.  So why expand pornos beyond temple prostitution? 

dunno

pornos and aresenokoites appear twice in the same verse, so there was a distinction being made between temple prostitutes and fornicators in general, it seems. the same wrod sometimes is translated as fornicator, sometimes as whoremonger. arsenokoites sometimes is translated as one who abuses himself with mankind, sometimes strong makes it a synonym for sodomite.

there's also G3120, malakos, and pais G3816 (contrast with doolos, G1401).

Quote
I agree those passages may have been specific references to religious practices.  But the question arises is what did Jehovah think of their practices in a nonreligious setting?  Do you think the only problem was the sex outside of marriage?

yes. and i think the israelites mixed them all up together, because at that time, there was no necessary distinction.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 03, 2018, 08:29:33 PM
yes. and i think the israelites mixed them all up together, because at that time, there was no necessary distinction.

Well Witness beliefs aren't really based on any of that.  Witnesses believe that God set his standard for the family arrangement in Eden when he created one man and one woman.  He also did not create multiple spouses for them.

Thoughts?


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

do you wear clothing, jst? god set the standard in eden for that as well, and it was to be naked. additionally, there is no mention of having children until after they left eden. does that mean that we are not to have children?

we don't live in eden, jst. god changed his plan for mankind after the fall, and the conditions of eden aren't to return until paradise earth.

at any rate, the verse in question reads like this:

Gen 2:24  Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.


it doesn't say that heterosexuality is the only relationship that man is suppose to have. there were no other men in the garden, so the possibility was moot. and where is friendship mentioned? since it isn't mentioned, are we to forbid it?

using the edenic model to forbid anything that isn't specifically mentioned also means you can't drive a car, wear eyeglasses, or cook your food.

what would we do with this?
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 05, 2018, 12:06:35 AM
do you wear clothing, jst? god set the standard in eden for that as well, and it was to be naked. additionally, there is no mention of having children until after they left eden. does that mean that we are not to have children?

we don't live in eden, jst. god changed his plan for mankind after the fall, and the conditions of eden aren't to return until paradise earth.

at any rate, the verse in question reads like this:

Gen 2:24  Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.


it doesn't say that heterosexuality is the only relationship that man is suppose to have. there were no other men in the garden, so the possibility was moot. and where is friendship mentioned? since it isn't mentioned, are we to forbid it?

using the edenic model to forbid anything that isn't specifically mentioned also means you can't drive a car, wear eyeglasses, or cook your food.

what would we do with this?

Failing to address these other issues mentioned means he set no standard for them.  He didn't give any commands about clothing, etc.  But he did give commands about creating a family. He gave them the command to reproduce.  Only a man and a woman could carry out that command so it stands to reason his standard for marriage was a man and a woman because nothing else would work.

Quotegod changed his plan for mankind after the fall

Okay, but does than mean his standard for the family changed?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

he changed everything else, jst. why single that out?

but its a fact thay when god created the relationship between man and woman, he did tell them to be a family and to reproduce.

but he didnt say anything at all about any other human relationship, including homosexuality. the first reason  for creating woman to make a helpmeet, not to create a family. once thrre were two sexes,  reproduction was added in.

remember, also, you said:

QuoteFailing to address these other issues mentioned means he set no standard for them.  He didn't give any commands about clothing, etc. 

god set no standard for homosexual helpmeet relationships because he did not address them.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 06, 2018, 10:42:14 PM
he changed everything else, jst. why single that out?

What did he change besides removing them from the garden?  Did his purpose change for them to be fruitful and fill the earth?  It was repeated to Noah.  As far as I am aware that command was in effect at least up until Christ.

Quotebut he didnt say anything at all about any other human relationship, including homosexuality. the first reason  for creating woman to make a helpmeet, not to create a family. once thrre were two sexes,  reproduction was added in.

The other animals were already reproducing.  I don't think it was an afterthought. 

I think just looking at the mechanical parts can tell you God's purpose for the sex organs.  I don't thnk his purpose was for things to be placed where they were not designed to be placed.  Isn't it clear that one thing was made for the other and not something else that is designed to be exit only?

Do you not think God's purpose is clear by design?  Men and women are physically designed for each other.

Quotegod set no standard for homosexual helpmeet relationships because he did not address them.

It says he created woman to be the help mate.  He specifically designed them for each other.  If human faces were imprinted with the form of some particular brand pair of glasses then I might conclude God wants us to wear that brand of glasses.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

jst, i'm not really tbe person to discuss christian mythology with, because i don't tbink it's true. so the hebrew creation narrative isn't compelling to me, really, one way or tbe other.

i consider tbe later accounts and letters to be likelier to be true, so i would focus on tbat. but dissecting tbe motives of a creation account is less relevant to me.

the mechani al design argument only goes so far. again, any god didn't design me to wear eyeglasses, yet i do. as yoh notice, thats significant, because it isnt tbat we are not designed for a particular brand, we're not designed for themto at all.

and god designed my teeth to eat raw food, yet i cook it. my hair was designed to grow, but i cut it. god dezigned me to walk, but i ride a bicycle. looking at morphology and inferring exclusive purpoze doesn't make sense to me.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 09, 2018, 10:36:17 AM
the mechani al design argument only goes so far. again, any god didn't design me to wear eyeglasses, yet i do.

No, your eyes were not designed for eyeglasses.  Eyeglasses were designed for your eyes.  That's why people don't wear them on their ankles.  If you do then you're not using them for what they were designed for.  In the case of sodomy you are actually going against the design.  Not only is the human body not designed for it, it's actually designed against it.  It's like wearing eyeglasses on the bottom of your foot.  Yes, you can do it.  But they're not designed for it.

Sex organs are not designed to be part of the human digestive system just like eyeglasses are not designed to be worn on the bottom of your feet.  Is this not true regardless of beliefs in God?  Did the sex organs evolve to be part of the digestive system? 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2018, 05:43:49 PM

Sex organs are not designed to be part of the human digestive system just like eyeglasses are not designed to be worn on the bottom of your feet.  Is this not true regardless of beliefs in God?  Did the sex organs evolve to be part of the digestive system?

firzt, yes they are.humanz eliminate urine through tbeir sex organs.

among tbe many, many animals with a cloaca, such as a chicken, elimination of waste and reproduction use the same orifices.

second, we're talking about unions, not sex. many marriagez have no sex at all. doez gox forbix tbem? if not, the argument you have prezented falls down.

third, many heterosexual unions practice sex oral and anal sex, rohtinely. the witnesses forbid this, but does that mean those marriages are invalid?

you needto tbink about tbis, jst
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 09, 2018, 08:01:02 PM
firzt, yes they are.humanz eliminate urine through tbeir sex organs.

Man, I hate it when that happens.  I didn't see that one coming haha.

Still, I think the argument holds.  In that case it is designed for that purpose.  In the other case, it's not.

Quoteamong tbe many, many animals with a cloaca, such as a chicken, elimination of waste and reproduction use the same orifices.

I did anticipate that.  I'm sure you can anticipate my answer.  We're designed differently.

Quotesecond, we're talking about unions, not sex. many marriagez have no sex at all. doez gox forbix tbem? if not, the argument you have prezented falls down.

It appears to me it is the sexual union that is forbidden.

Quotethird, many heterosexual unions practice sex oral and anal sex, rohtinely. the witnesses forbid this, but does that mean those marriages are invalid?

No, they are all still unions.  But that doesn't make it part of the design nor does it mean God approves.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

dunno what else to say, jst.

i've shown that the original jewish proscriptions in the OT were directed at keeping jews separate from the canaanite fertility rites, that the use of the term "sodomite" appears to explicitly refer to male temple prostitutes in both the old and new testament, and that romans 1 explicitly deals with homosexual acts as part of pagan worship.

i've demonstrated that the argument that adam and eve were created as husband and wife doesn't forbid other relationships that simply aren't mentioned,  that even if they were, using the edenic situation as a model ignores the fact that we don't follow it anywhere anyway.

i've pointed out that the argument that sex organs were to be separate from the alimentary system ignores that fact that human male and female genitals are part of the urinary tract. i've pointed out that birds (and incidentally, all snakes, lizards, frogs, toads, turtles, marsupials and many, many invertebrates) do have the sex organs as part of their digestive system-- by design, presumeably from god. i didn't even bring up female homosexual sexual relationships, which don't involve the same types of sex that some (NOT all) male homosexuals engage in.

you keep saying that you believe that god disapproves of same-sex sexual unions, even though i've shown how your argument doesn't work or is inconsistent each time, using the same terms you phrased it in. what i think you're saying without meaning is that the governing body of the watchtower society disapproves, and is speaking for god in ways that aren't scriptural, and aren't rational. please think about who is telling you this stuff, and whether they have better arguments than the ones we've been looking at.

you did say that to you it appears that it is the same-sex sexual union that is forbidden, presumably not the marriage.

so, would a same-sex, monogamous, un-consumated male homosexual marriage with strict fidelity be acceptable to you?

would a same-sex, monogamous, un-consumated female homosexual marriage with strict fidelity be acceptable to you?

because ^^^that's the key, at this point, i think.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

kevin

jst, are you aware of the two times in the NT jesus encountered people who were (arguably) homosexual, and how he treated them?

it's speculaltion, but it gives food for thought.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on May 09, 2018, 10:46:40 PM
i've shown that the original jewish proscriptions in the OT were directed at keeping jews separate from the canaanite fertility rites, that the use of the term "sodomite" appears to explicitly refer to male temple prostitutes in both the old and new testament, and that romans 1 explicitly deals with homosexual acts as part of pagan worship.

I don't think you have successfully done this.  Was Sodom destroyed for temple prostitution?

And you have not given a reason why references to homoxexuality must be limited to temple prostitution when pornos is not.  Why not just say God is not limiting extra maritial sex, only temple prostitution?  Pornos doesn't just mean premarital sex.  It means any sort of sexual uncleanness.  Homosexual acts are specifically mentioned.  If he is just disallowing temple protitution then why even distinguish male from female?

Quotei've demonstrated that the argument that adam and eve were created as husband and wife doesn't forbid other relationships that simply aren't mentioned,  that even if they were, using the edenic situation as a model ignores the fact that we don't follow it anywhere anyway.

Because he does not expressly forbid something does not mean he approves of it.  He did not forbid Adam from sticking into a tree either, but obviously it was not designed for that.

Quotei've pointed out that the argument that sex organs were to be separate from the alimentary system ignores that fact that human male and female genitals are part of the urinary tract. i've pointed out that birds (and incidentally, all snakes, lizards, frogs, toads, turtles, marsupials and many, many invertebrates) do have the sex organs as part of their digestive system-- by design, presumeably from god. i didn't even bring up female homosexual sexual relationships, which don't involve the same types of sex that some (NOT all) male homosexuals engage in.

Yes, but these things are part of the design.  As far as they are able, they don't go sticking things where they're not designed to go.

Quoteyou keep saying that you believe that god disapproves of same-sex sexual unions, even though i've shown how your argument doesn't work or is inconsistent each time, using the same terms you phrased it in. what i think you're saying without meaning is that the governing body of the watchtower society disapproves, and is speaking for god in ways that aren't scriptural, and aren't rational. please think about who is telling you this stuff, and whether they have better arguments than the ones we've been looking at.

Kevin I may default to the Witnesses if I am on the fence.  I afford them the benefit of doubt.  Homosexuality is not one of those issues.  I just really do not think that homosexuality is a part of God's purpose for man.  I'm not trying to be mean or prejudiced.  I would not even condemn a prostitute.  But I could not in could conscience tell them that prostitution is part of God's purpose.

Quoteyou did say that to you it appears that it is the same-sex sexual union that is forbidden, presumably not the marriage.

Well it appears that sex is what creates the union.  That's why the Bible talks about being "one flesh" with a prostitute. 

Quoteso, would a same-sex, monogamous, un-consumated male homosexual marriage with strict fidelity be acceptable to you?

Kevin it is not a matter of what is acceptable to me.  I do not want to pose any unnecessary burden. 

Quotewould a same-sex, monogamous, un-consumated female homosexual marriage with strict fidelity be acceptable to you?

I do not believe that is part of Jehovah's purpose.  I would agree that a committed relationships are preferable over whordom.  At least you're not committing adultery over and over or dont' have a wanton desire for sex.

But I do not think it represents Jehovah's will.  But on the other hand, I'm not going to condemn homosexuals.  They are my neighbors and I love them just as much as my other neighbors. 

My nephew used to claim he was gay.  I accepted him.  Not all of his family did.  For a time, I became his father figure.  Then he fell in love and had a child.  Now he's broken hearted.  Now I don't know if he's gay or not.  Maybe bisexual.  Maybe he was trying to anger his father.  But whatever the case it's not an issue unless he makes it an issue.  He hasn't.  We often talk about things.  If he wants to talk about it then we'll talk about it.  Until that time, it's none of my business.  It's not like I check people at the door to see if they're homosexual or not.

Quotejst, are you aware of the two times in the NT jesus encountered people who were (arguably) homosexual, and how he treated them?

it's speculaltion, but it gives food for thought.

No.  I'd be interested in knowing though.


 



But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

So I have thought further about this and did some research on my own.  I still cannot agree that homosexual activity is met with God's approval.  But I do have a different perspective about the Bible references.  The problems appear to have been much bigger than mere homosexuality.  It does reinforce my belief that homosexuals are just as much my neighbor as anyone else.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 25, 2018, 05:24:39 PM
It does reinforce my belief that homosexuals are just as much my neighbor as anyone else.   

Of course they are,
And we are all sinners; hopefully not wanting to practice and live in sin "as the Gentiles do":

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds....put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness....put away falsehood....speak the truth....do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal....Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths....do not grieve the Holy Spirit....Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on May 25, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 25, 2018, 05:24:39 PM
It does reinforce my belief that homosexuals are just as much my neighbor as anyone else.   

Of course they are,
And we are all sinners; hopefully not wanting to practice and live in sin "as the Gentiles do":

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds....put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness....put away falsehood....speak the truth....do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal....Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths....do not grieve the Holy Spirit....Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4.

According to your signature the only thing that matter are creeds.  It sounds to me then the necessary work of salvation is studying and learning the right creeds.  That sounds like something the religious leaders of Jesus' day would say.

But what does the scripture you posted say? 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 30, 2018, 06:29:53 PM
According to your signature the only thing that matter are creeds.

You keep getting it wrong, my friend:
Creeds, not deeds, do keep you out of the weeds, but creeds are far from "the only things that matter"
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on May 30, 2018, 06:50:59 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 30, 2018, 06:29:53 PM
According to your signature the only thing that matter are creeds.

You keep getting it wrong, my friend:
Creeds, not deeds, do keep you out of the weeds, but creeds are far from "the only things that matter"

Jesus said, "If you love me __________.

A.  Adhere to this creed.
B.  Keep my commands.
C.  Believe in the trinity.
D.  Worship me as God.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 30, 2018, 07:14:16 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on May 30, 2018, 06:50:59 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 30, 2018, 06:29:53 PM
According to your signature the only thing that matter are creeds.

You keep getting it wrong, my friend:
Creeds, not deeds, do keep you out of the weeds, but creeds are far from "the only things that matter"

Jesus said, "If you love me __________.

A.  Adhere to this creed.
B.  Keep my commands.
C.  Believe in the trinity.
D.  Worship me as God.

Jesus said, "If you love me __________.

A. You will keep my commandments.
B. You will know I used to be a unique archangel.
C. You will know that the doctrine of Hell I advocate is not real.
D. You will know I was resurrected as a spirit creature; not in a glorious body.


"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin" - Romans 3:20.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.