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Mathew 24:3

Started by Jstwebbrowsing, December 28, 2017, 07:31:32 PM

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Jstwebbrowsing

?Tell us,? they said, ?when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?? (Mt 24:3 NIV)

In the following verses Jesus lists many things that would compose a "sign" of his "coming".  I don't want to focus on that.  I'd like to focus on verse 3.  For a time I believed verse 3 meant that when we would see the sign that meant Jesus was about to arrive.  However, after a more thorough consideration of the verse, I no longer think that is true.

The word that is translated "coming" does not mean "arrival", which is what I thought.  That's wrong.  It literally means "presence". 

The Greek word from which ?presence? is translated is pa?rou?si?a, formed from pa?ra? (alongside) and ou?si?a (being; derived from ei?mi?, meaning ?be?). Hence, pa?rou?si?a means, literally, ?being alongside,? that is, a ?presence.? It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.?Mt 24:3; see NW appendix, pp. 1576, 1577.

Vine?s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: ?PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.?

The NWT reads" ?Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things??

YLT reads:  'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

The Bible also compares Christ's "presence" with the "days of Noah" (Mt 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-30).  With those things in mind, what the disciples are really asking is, how will we know when you are here [present].  Further, it implies that while Christ is "present" that the world will continue on normally for a time just as in the "days of Noah".

Thoughts?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

The word "presence" is a very poor (minority) translation as "every eye will see him"; every eye will see Christ in the body; not as a spirit presence.

"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." - Revelation 1.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

GratefulApe

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 28, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
?Tell us,? they said, ?when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?? (Mt 24:3 NIV)

In the following verses Jesus lists many things that would compose a "sign" of his "coming".  I don't want to focus on that.  I'd like to focus on verse 3.  For a time I believed verse 3 meant that when we would see the sign that meant Jesus was about to arrive.  However, after a more thorough consideration of the verse, I no longer think that is true.

The word that is translated "coming" does not mean "arrival", which is what I thought.  That's wrong.  It literally means "presence". 

The Greek word from which ?presence? is translated is pa?rou?si?a, formed from pa?ra? (alongside) and ou?si?a (being; derived from ei?mi?, meaning ?be?). Hence, pa?rou?si?a means, literally, ?being alongside,? that is, a ?presence.? It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.?Mt 24:3; see NW appendix, pp. 1576, 1577.

Vine?s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: ?PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.?

The NWT reads" ?Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things??

YLT reads:  'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

The Bible also compares Christ's "presence" with the "days of Noah" (Mt 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-30).  With those things in mind, what the disciples are really asking is, how will we know when you are here [present].  Further, it implies that while Christ is "present" that the world will continue on normally for a time just as in the "days of Noah".

Thoughts?

kind of a long confusing question. What is it that you really want to know?

eyeshaveit

#3
Christians teach that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected; not as a spirit:

"Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ?We have seen the Lord.? But he said to them, ?Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.? Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ?Peace be with you.? Then he said to Thomas, ?Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.? Thomas answered him, ?My Lord and my God!?" - John 20.

Jehovah's witnesses teach that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit; not bodily:

"When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas? faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up." - jw.org.

But the Gospel writer, Saint Luke, gives us two accounts in the Holy Bible; both clearly relate and reveal that the resurrected Jesus Christ ascended bodily (not as a spirit) into Heaven:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, ?Peace to you!? But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, ?Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.?  And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet....And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God." - Luke 24.


So when they had come together, they asked him, ?Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?? He said to them, ?It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.? And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ?Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.? - Acts 1.

(bold mine)



Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 28, 2017, 07:43:50 PM
The word "presence" is a very poor (minority) translation as "every eye will see him"; every eye will see Christ in the body; not as a spirit presence.

"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." - Revelation 1.

It may be a minority translation but it does not logically follow that it's a poor translation. 

In view of this, J. B. Rotherham?s Emphasised Bible states in its appendix (p. 271): ?In this edition the word parousia is uniformly rendered ?presence? (?coming,? as a representative of this word, being set aside). . . . The sense of ?presence? is so plainly [shown] by the contrast with ?absence? . . . that the question naturally arises,?Why not always so render it??

Of course, Christ has to "come" before he can be "present".  But the word "coming" seems to place emphasis on the arrival only, but the word actually means an arrival along with a subsequent presence.  He is going to come and be present as opposed to arriving and then departing.

Yes, the Bible says "every eye will see him" including those that "pierced him", but it also warns that he is going to come as a "thief in the night."  Another place it says he is going to come riding a white horse to wage war.  I don't think his parousia and his riding a white horse to wage war is the same.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: GratefulApe on December 28, 2017, 10:50:36 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 28, 2017, 07:31:32 PM
?Tell us,? they said, ?when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?? (Mt 24:3 NIV)

In the following verses Jesus lists many things that would compose a "sign" of his "coming".  I don't want to focus on that.  I'd like to focus on verse 3.  For a time I believed verse 3 meant that when we would see the sign that meant Jesus was about to arrive.  However, after a more thorough consideration of the verse, I no longer think that is true.

The word that is translated "coming" does not mean "arrival", which is what I thought.  That's wrong.  It literally means "presence". 

The Greek word from which ?presence? is translated is pa?rou?si?a, formed from pa?ra? (alongside) and ou?si?a (being; derived from ei?mi?, meaning ?be?). Hence, pa?rou?si?a means, literally, ?being alongside,? that is, a ?presence.? It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.?Mt 24:3; see NW appendix, pp. 1576, 1577.

Vine?s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: ?PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.?

The NWT reads" ?Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things??

YLT reads:  'Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

The Bible also compares Christ's "presence" with the "days of Noah" (Mt 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-30).  With those things in mind, what the disciples are really asking is, how will we know when you are here [present].  Further, it implies that while Christ is "present" that the world will continue on normally for a time just as in the "days of Noah".

Thoughts?

kind of a long confusing question. What is it that you really want to know?

JWs believe that when Christ entered the kingdom of heaven that he did so without a flesh and blood body.  This belief is based on (1 Cor 15:50). "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".  We believe he was given a spiritual body upon resurrection. This is based on:  "So it is with the resurrection of the dead.........It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one (1 Cor 15:42-44).

So as Eyes has said, we do believe he was resurrected as a spirit rather than a human. We do believe he was bodily raised, but we believe he was raised with a spirit body.  I believe a careful consideration of 1 Cor 15:35-57 reveals the manner of his resurrection as a spirit very clearly, not only his but that of others as well.  We believe his flesh and blood appearances to his disciples were performed in the same way that angels had physically appeared in the past, through the manifestation of a flesh and blood body.

That's just a little background but it's a little off topic.  What I really want to discuss is his return, not his resurrection.  Specifically I'd like to consider, in light of the Bible, how he returns.  Does he return as a human or as a mighty spirit?  I believe it is the latter and I think that's important because he returns as a "thief in the night".  As a spirit his presence would not be as obvious as the nose on someone's face.  As a spirit it would be very easy to return as a "thief in the night".

I think several scriptures indicate this is how he would return.  In this way Mathew 24:3 and the sign that follows makes sense.  Why would we need a sign if we can literally see him with our eyes?  His disciples asked for a sign of his presence.  In return Christ gave many signs, that when put together, indicate he would be present.  These signs can be seen by all onlookers, every eye. 

To me then it makes sense when Jesus said, "?Then if anyone says to you, ?Look! Here is the Christ,? or, ?There!? do not believe it.......Therefore, if people say to you, ?Look! He is in the wilderness,? do not go out; ?Look! He is in the inner rooms,? do not believe it.  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be"  (Mt 24:23-27).  Like lightning, Christ would be literally present everywhere, and his presence could be discerned through the "sign" he gave following Mathew 24:3.

There is more I could say, but I don't want to be too long winded.  Any thoughts?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 29, 2017, 06:56:45 AM
Christians teach that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected; not as a spirit:

"Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ?We have seen the Lord.? But he said to them, ?Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.? Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ?Peace be with you.? Then he said to Thomas, ?Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.? Thomas answered him, ?My Lord and my God!?" - John 20.

Jehovah's witnesses teach that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit; not bodily:

"When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas? faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up." - jw.org.

But the Gospel writer, Saint Luke, gives us two accounts in the Holy Bible; both clearly relate and reveal that the resurrected Jesus Christ ascended bodily (not as a spirit) into Heaven:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, ?Peace to you!? But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, ?Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.?  And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet....And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God." - Luke 24.


So when they had come together, they asked him, ?Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?? He said to them, ?It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.? And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ?Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.? - Acts 1.

(bold mine)

Okay.  If we go with that, how do you explain this passage.  "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God?s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15:44)
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

GratefulApe

Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 29, 2017, 06:56:45 AM
Christians teach that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected; not as a spirit:

"Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, ?We have seen the Lord.? But he said to them, ?Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.? Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ?Peace be with you.? Then he said to Thomas, ?Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.? Thomas answered him, ?My Lord and my God!?" - John 20.

Jehovah's witnesses teach that Jesus Christ was resurrected as a spirit; not bodily:

"When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas? faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up." - jw.org.

But the Gospel writer, Saint Luke, gives us two accounts in the Holy Bible; both clearly relate and reveal that the resurrected Jesus Christ ascended bodily (not as a spirit) into Heaven:

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, ?Peace to you!? But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, ?Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.?  And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet....And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple blessing God." - Luke 24.


So when they had come together, they asked him, ?Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?? He said to them, ?It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.? And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ?Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.? - Acts 1.

(bold mine)

Oh, so she's a hobo witness. No wonder I can't relate to what she writes and all of the mumbo jumbo.

eyeshaveit

#8
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 29, 2017, 09:19:06 PM
How do you explain this passage.  "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God?s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15:44)

Again, you are using a poor translation; one that was changed to better fit and mold it to Jehovah's witness doctrine, but here is a better rendering of the Greek:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." - 1 Cor 15:44.

A real physical body; the Lord was not raised up as a spirit, but resurrected to/with a glorified new body; the same thing as promised to believers.

"But someone will ask, ?How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?? You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body." - 1 Corinthians 15.







Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 30, 2017, 07:38:04 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 29, 2017, 09:19:06 PM
How do you explain this passage.  "But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God?s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption." (1 Cor 15:44)

Again, you are using a poor translation; one that was changed to better fit and mold it to Jehovah's witness doctrine, but here is a better rendering of the Greek:

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." - 1 Cor 15:44.

A real physical body; the Lord was not raised up as a spirit, but resurrected to/with a glorified new body; the same thing as promised to believers.

"But someone will ask, ?How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?? You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body." - 1 Corinthians 15.

Other translations say the same thing.  http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-44.htm

They say it is raised a "spiritual body".

NLT reads this way, "They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies......What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. (1 Cor 15:44)

The scripture is saying that the "glorified new body" is a spiritual body.  So I don't see how anything has been changed to fit a doctrine.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 04:26:39 PM
I don't see how anything has been changed to fit a doctrine.

There are probably hundreds of 'things' that you can't or don't want to see,
No problem, we will both go on 'eating and drinking, etc.....as it was in the days of Noah'.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 30, 2017, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 04:26:39 PM
I don't see how anything has been changed to fit a doctrine.

There are probably hundreds of 'things' that you can't or don't want to see,
No problem, we will both go on 'eating and drinking, etc.....as it was in the days of Noah'.

What?  Please read this text for accuracy.  "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."  I am not denying what the Bible says.  You are picking cherries.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: GratefulApe on December 30, 2017, 02:30:48 AM

Oh, so she's a hobo witness. No wonder I can't relate to what she writes and all of the mumbo jumbo.

What is that supposed to mean? 
Seems rather derogatory.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 30, 2017, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 04:26:39 PM
I don't see how anything has been changed to fit a doctrine.

There are probably hundreds of 'things' that you can't or don't want to see,
No problem, we will both go on 'eating and drinking, etc.....as it was in the days of Noah'.

What?  Please read this text for accuracy.  "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."  I am not denying what the Bible says.  You are picking cherries.

Jst could this passage mean the "works of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of god?"
How flawed is the bible that it is so unclear to those who try so hard.  If only there was a real helper?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on January 13, 2018, 10:49:42 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on December 30, 2017, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on December 30, 2017, 04:26:39 PM
I don't see how anything has been changed to fit a doctrine.

There are probably hundreds of 'things' that you can't or don't want to see,
No problem, we will both go on 'eating and drinking, etc.....as it was in the days of Noah'.

What?  Please read this text for accuracy.  "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."  I am not denying what the Bible says.  You are picking cherries.

Jst could this passage mean the "works of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of god?"
How flawed is the bible that it is so unclear to those who try so hard.  If only there was a real helper?

That is not a flaw in the Bible.  The flaw is people trying to make it say something it doesn't say.  The passage illustrates the same thing in many ways.  I just don't see how it could be more to the point.  It's not hard to understand.  It's not hidden in a parable.  It's not hidden in mystery and symbolism.  The words are plain.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12