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The Trinity

Started by Jstwebbrowsing, December 09, 2017, 08:50:33 PM

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Case

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 02, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Quote from: Case on January 25, 2018, 01:33:58 PM
The doctrine of the Trinity does not state that there are two or three or four gods. It's really just the logical conclusion of what Scripture teaches. We know that:

1. There is only one true God.
2. The Father is true God, the Son is true God, and the Spirit is true God.
3. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons.

I don't see that as a logical conclusion.  #1 and #2 are logically impossible.  There is either one true God or more than one.  It can't be both.

Plus the Bible only ever identifies one person as the only true God.   

It may be hard to comprehend, but I believe it is what Scripture teaches. You and I will obviously disagree on this. Are we at an impasse?

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 02, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
In John 14:9 the same Greek verb eimi? is used to render Jesus? words: "Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me?" 

There are both ancient and modern translations that render it "I have been" or similar.  Here are more examples of the Greek word being used (Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 1:9; 5:6; 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8)  It appears to me that translating it "I am" is done in order to fit a preexisting doctrine.  Jesus is not here claiming the name of Jehovah.  He is making a statement about his prehumen existence. The word eimi? is not a name or a title.

He said "ego eimi", not simply "eimi". This was the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. And yes, Jesus does use the term often in John's gospel. This is intentional and Jews knew what it meant.

Why would the Jews want to stone him for claiming to exist before Abraham? It may be an odd claim, but it's not blasphemous.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 02, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
Plus contextually Jesus was not trying to portray himself as God but rather his father.  "Jesus answered: ?If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, the one who you say is your God.  Yet you have not known him, but I know him. And if I said I do not know him, I would be like you, a liar. But I do know him and am observing his word." (v 54,55)

I don't see what you're trying to show here. Maybe you could explain further.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 02, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
QuoteWe are united to the Father only through His Son, because the Son is at once fully man and fully God.

But it does not logically follow that he must be fully God in order to be an intercessor.  Being fully man and fully God is logically impossible.  Either your are limited or unlimited.

QuoteI'm confused, are you saying that created human beings can be united in nature to the one, true God?

No I am repeating what Christ said.  "That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Christians become united in the same way as Christ, by sharing a single spirit.  Christians do not receive a different spirit than Christ received.  They receive the spirit that makes them sons.  Those in the new covenant are equal sharers with Christ.

But they will certainly never become Almighty God.  They are sharers of God along with Christ.  He is the first fruit.

The Father is the universal sovereign.  That's why Christ himself always obeys him.

So you're saying the anointed are Christ's equals? I realize you are quoting from Romans 8:17, we are co-heirs with Christ, but you believe he is greater than us, correct?
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Case on February 03, 2018, 02:04:33 AM
It matters whether Jesus Christ is the one and only true God incarnate or not. If Jst is right, then I do not know the true God. If I am right, Jst does not know the true God. This is essential doctrine from both of our points of view.

I would not quite go that far.  I think having some beliefs in error and not knowing God at all are two separate things.

I believe the truth brings us ever closer to him.
   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 03, 2018, 02:36:24 AM
I do think carrying out the message of Christ is important. 

Then the truth,
That Jesus Christ is God,
Would be of the supreme importance, eh?
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

kevin

Quote from: Case on February 03, 2018, 02:04:33 AM
It matters whether Jesus Christ is the one and only true God incarnate or not. If Jst is right, then I do not know the true God. If I am right, Jst does not know the true God. This is essential doctrine from both of our points of view.

if there is only one god, case, then you do know the true god, whether you understand everything about him correctly or not.

do you understand everything there is to understand about god? if not, perhaps this can be added to the list.

Quote
Quote from: kevin on February 02, 2018, 06:18:25 PM
what is the purpose of focusing on this disagreement?

To study scripture more deeply and to know who God is.

that's a reasonable answer.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 03, 2018, 02:36:24 AM

I find that I have a particular dislike of the trinity doctrine because it actually takes honor away from God.  To me, the trinity doctrine paints the human creation as an abysmal failure.  Man is not capable to carrying out his God given purpose.  God had to literally come down and do it himself.  Would you then call man a successful creation? 

If however, Christ is fully man....period.  Then the human creation becomes awe-inspiring.  Not only that but it would have been unjust to condemn Adam if he were anything less than Christ's equal.   It just paints an all around bad picture that is not support in the Bible or with logic.

certainly the nature of adam is regarded differently. does this result in a different array of choices for living people?
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on February 03, 2018, 02:52:43 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 03, 2018, 02:36:24 AM

I find that I have a particular dislike of the trinity doctrine because it actually takes honor away from God.  To me, the trinity doctrine paints the human creation as an abysmal failure.  Man is not capable to carrying out his God given purpose.  God had to literally come down and do it himself.  Would you then call man a successful creation? 

If however, Christ is fully man....period.  Then the human creation becomes awe-inspiring.  Not only that but it would have been unjust to condemn Adam if he were anything less than Christ's equal.   It just paints an all around bad picture that is not support in the Bible or with logic.

certainly the nature of adam is regarded differently. does this result in a different array of choices for living people?

No I don't think so.  I just think it takes honor from God by devaluing his creation.  This diminishes the power and wisdom of God.  He was unable to create humans that would freely follow his will.  He had to go down and do it himself as some sort of avatar.  This makes Satan's claims in Job true.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

how then do you reconcile tbe creation of adam as a perfect man with the fallen nature of current man?

doesn't the inheritance of a fallen nature equally devalue the creation, because adam's descendants are unable to rise out of it?
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

#37
Quote from: Case on February 03, 2018, 02:47:47 AM
It may be hard to comprehend, but I believe it is what Scripture teaches. You and I will obviously disagree on this. Are we at an impasse?

I think it is hard to understand in the same way a square circle is hard to understand.  I don't believe God is a contradiction.

QuoteHe said "ego eimi", not simply "eimi". This was the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. And yes, Jesus does use the term often in John's gospel. This is intentional and Jews knew what it meant.

Ego means I.  From what I have read eimi is translated differently depending on sentence structure.  In John 8:58 Jesus starts by talking in the past tense so "have been" I think fits the sentence structure better.

Additionally, in Exodus 3:14 God does not say "I am".  He says 'eh-yeh 'a-ser 'eh-yeh.  This is often translatated as I am who I am (still different from Jesus' statement).  However the word does not actually mean "am" but rather it means "to fall out, come to pass, become, be" (Strong's).   Some other translations render the passage "I will become what I will become".  It is not even a statement about self-existence but a statement about the sureness of his purposes, which was needed encouragement for the Israelites.

QuoteWhy would the Jews want to stone him for claiming to exist before Abraham? It may be an odd claim, but it's not blasphemous.

Because he was claiming to be God's son.  He was claiming to be greater than Moses and all the prophets.

QuoteI don't see what you're trying to show here. Maybe you could explain further.

If you look at the previous verses to John 8:58 you will see that Jesus is claiming to be subordinate to God.  To then turn around and claim to be God is a complete reversal.

QuoteSo you're saying the anointed are Christ's equals? I realize you are quoting from Romans 8:17, we are co-heirs with Christ, but you believe he is greater than us, correct?

I believe they will become like him with their resurrection.  They will become immortal and incorruptible kings with Christ.  Will they be able to command all the powers of God as Christ does?  I'm not sure.  I don't think the Bible says but I have no reason to think not since they will be incorruptible beings in perfect union with Christ.  Christ is greater because he is the one through whom these things come and he will remain the high priest.

I do believe Jehovah and Christ are equal in some ways, but not because of Christ being eternal and is himself God, but because Jehovah has given him these things because of his own faithfulness  Jehovah will also give this to the anointed but only in union with Christ.  That makes Christ always greater.  He will still remain head of the one body, just like God is the head of Christ (1 Cor 11:3).

Chirst is also unique in that he is the "only begotten" son of God.  He is Jehovah's only creation.  He was not created in the same way as everything else.  He is also God's only begotten son in that he is the only one resurrected by Jehovah.

I believe Christ shares one nature with God which is what I think trinitarians teach.  But we differ I guess in that I believe the nature they share is Jehovah's nature.  The spirit they share is Jehovah's spirit and that makes Jehovah greater.  Being given these things does in some manner make him God, like a prince ruling in his father's name makes him king, but Christ is not himself "king of eternity".  He has nothing that he did not receive.


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on February 05, 2018, 05:09:35 AM
how then do you reconcile tbe creation of adam as a perfect man with the fallen nature of current man?

doesn't the inheritance of a fallen nature equally devalue the creation, because adam's descendants are unable to rise out of it?

No I don't think so.  There is a difference between the ability to succeed or fail and only the ability to fail. 

As much as you don't like what happens in Job I would like to you think deeply about the issue raised by Satan's claims.  First, know that the claims are not just about Job.  "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life." (Job 2:4).  That statement is not just about Job.  It goes deeper.  Satan is claiming that no human will maintain integrity to God under pressure.  Satan is actually making claims about the human creation itself.  Since it's purpose is to maintain integrity toward God, if it does not then it's a failure on God's part.  Satan's claims are actually an accusations against God.  He is basically saying "YOU FAILED" as a creator.  It is a challenge to Jehovah's sovereignty.  This challenge dates back to Eden.

Imagine Satan making the same claims about Adam and Eve.  I am quite certain that he did.  I'm sure he didn't sneak down there without God's permission.   And look at what happened.  Two perfect humans failed the test.  The evidence show that Satan's claims may be true.  If they are the only evidence then Satan's claims remain true.  If Christ was man/god then Satan's claims remain true.  Man himself has no integrity.  It Christ was truly a "second Adam" then Satan's claims are proved false.

From Adam to Christ many people, like Job, demonstrated the falseness of Satan's claims.  But Christ's faithful course is the only one that frully demonstrates it.  Christ demonstrated the capacity of a perfect human, proving there is nothing wrong with the creation itself.

Adam alone does not represent all mankind.  Christ does also.  It is not true that Adam represents all of us.  It is not true that all humans would choose as Adam did as the doctrine goes.  God did not fail. 

The trinity doctrine, I think, helps produce other defaming doctrines.  A little yeast works through the whole batch.  And the one being defamed is God.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on February 05, 2018, 09:06:09 PM
No I don't think so.  There is a difference between the ability to succeed or fail and only the ability to fail. 

. . .

Adam alone does not represent all mankind.  Christ does also.  It is not true that Adam represents all of us.  It is not true that all humans would choose as Adam did as the doctrine goes.  God did not fail. 

The trinity doctrine, I think, helps produce other defaming doctrines.  A little yeast works through the whole batch.  And the one being defamed is God.

so if it is possible not to fail, then is it possible for a human today to live a completely sinless life?

what then was tbe purpose of tbe resurrection, and what does it mean today?
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: kevin on February 06, 2018, 02:41:27 AM
so if it is possible not to fail, then is it possible for a human today to live a completely sinless life?
Quote

It is possible to not fail as a perfect human.  We have inherited imperection.  Christ is not of the same lineage.  Christ, the man, was created directy by God.  While we inherit imperfection from Adam that does not mean that literally everyone human would have made the same choice.

Quotewhat then was tbe purpose of tbe resurrection, and what does it mean today?

The purpose of the resurrection was to reward Christ for his faithful service.  Not only was he resurrected but he recieved "all power......" 

The purpose of the resurrection today is to allow others to follow Christ and share in his reward rather than maintaining the inheritance of Adam.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Andy S.

There is a lot of disagreement in this thread.  Can we all at least agree on one thing?  That is...well...if the God of the bible exists then the God of the bible is a really crappy communicator!  I mean...really!?!?  The bible I own is 4 pages shy of 2000 pages long and we have Christians arguing who the "One True God" is?  Wow!  Jeez...if I was a Christian I would at least take a serious step back and ask myself why I think the bible is inspired by this "One True God" if Christians can't even agree who this "One True God" even is!   
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman!"
- Homer Simpson

Quote from: kevin on February 23, 2015, 08:19:43 AM

you're still a christian, andy, just a non-believing one.

Teaspoon Shallow

@Andy S.

Welcome back Andy, good to see you again.   ||tip hat||
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Former Believer

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on January 29, 2018, 05:10:59 AM
The trinity seems to be an after thought to reconcile unreasonable scriptures.

I think there has been a lot of post-Biblical revisionism by people of various sects to make incongruent passages make sense within the context of those sect's theology.  The Bible grew organically, people who were writing it didn't understand which writings would eventually be accepted as part of sacred scripture that would be in the OT or NT and there was no outside analyst to make sure that all the facts added up. 
Don't sacrifice your mind at the altar of belief

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Former Believer on March 29, 2018, 01:41:33 PM
The Bible grew organically, people who were writing it didn't understand which writings would eventually be accepted as part of sacred scripture that would be in the OT or NT....

Not so,
John, Peter, Paul, etc. knew that they were being inspired by the Holy Spirit, as they were writing the Holy Scriptures: 

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." - 2 Peter 3.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: eyeshaveit on March 29, 2018, 02:23:30 PM
Not so,
John, Peter, Paul, etc. knew that they were being inspired by the Holy Spirit, as they were writing the Holy Scriptures: 


Was it the holy spirit that dictated a different empty tomb natative?    ||iiam||

We have to agree to disagree, off to work I flee.  ||iinam||
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

eyeshaveit

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Former Believer on March 29, 2018, 01:41:33 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on January 29, 2018, 05:10:59 AM
The trinity seems to be an after thought to reconcile unreasonable scriptures.

I think there has been a lot of post-Biblical revisionism by people of various sects to make incongruent passages make sense within the context of those sect's theology.  The Bible grew organically, people who were writing it didn't understand which writings would eventually be accepted as part of sacred scripture that would be in the OT or NT and there was no outside analyst to make sure that all the facts added up.

I don't think there are any incongruent messages about a trinity.  Yes, Christ said him and the father are one.  But then he also used an analogy.

"?I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21

so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22

I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one" (John 17:20-22).

To me, that solves any mystery.  Taking it further contradicts Christ's own analogy.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

But I do believe Christ is equal to God in many ways just like I am equal to my father.  But there is one place where we have never shared equality and that's in the authority department.  I have always been subject to my father, but my father has never been subject to me.

And to me that's what defines Jehovah as God.  It's not his "nature" that makes him God, it's his authority. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on April 29, 2018, 08:25:36 PM
How to Use the Back of a Napkin to Prove to a Jehovah?s Witness That Jesus Is God

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-to-use-the-back-of-a-napkin-to-prove-to-a-jehovahs-witness-that-jesus-is-god/

QuoteIf you want to prove the Trinity, then, all you need to do is show that three specific truths are taught in Scripture. First, there?s only one God. Second, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are truly distinct persons.

While holy spirit is personified it is never shown to be a distinct person.  God is only shown to have one person with him in heaven.  Holy spirit never speaks or makes any appearance as a person.  Neither God nor Christ ever speak to a third person.  It doesn't even have a name.  The only evidence of it being a person is personification.  The Bible does personify things, like wisdom, that are not actually people.

I also don't agree that having equal natures means they are equal.  It just means they have the same nature.  This nature is reflected in holy spirit.  My father and I have equal natures, but that doesn't mean we are in all ways equal.  We are not.  And Christ is shown to share that same inequality with his father.  He must obey his father.

In my case, that makes by father the patriarch of the family.  In Jehovah's case, that makes him God, or the universal sovereign.  The one that commands is greater than the one that obeys.  The one that sends is greater than the one that is sent.  A father is greater than his son.  Christ even explicitly says that.  "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

You cannot be any more unambiguous than that.  Yet, if I believe it then I'm not a Christian. 

 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

kevin

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2018, 08:54:20 PM

You cannot be any more unambiguous than that.  Yet, if I believe it then I'm not a Christian. 


that's because nobody was a christian before nicaea, apparently. you've encountered the protestant test for christianity, in which it's what you say that's important, rather than what happens to you.

one old quaker had a different definition for a christian: that you have the spirit of christ, and are led by it.

but this is a functional test, along the lines of, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

not really popular among protestants.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2018, 08:28:55 PM
But I do believe Christ is equal to God in many ways just like I am equal to my father.  But there is one place where we have never shared equality and that's in the authority department.  I have always been subject to my father, but my father has never been subject to me.

And to me that's what defines Jehovah as God.  It's not his "nature" that makes him God, it's his authority.

There is no pie chart and certainly no human analogy to describe the Trinity, for instance:
A wife is subject to her husband; he has all the authority, but it's only a matter of form or structure.

And you are saying,
"It's not his "nature" that makes him God, it's his authority",
But the Son, Jesus Christ, He who created the Universe and everything in it, has lesser authority?   

"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities?all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." - Collosians 1.

"Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, ?Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.? Jesus said to him, ?Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ?Show us the Father??" - John 14.

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

eyeshaveit

#53
Quote from: kevin on April 29, 2018, 11:02:55 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2018, 08:54:20 PM

You cannot be any more unambiguous than that.  Yet, if I believe it then I'm not a Christian. 


that's because nobody was a christian before nicaea, apparently. you've encountered the protestant test for christianity, in which it's what you say that's important, rather than what happens to you.

one old quaker had a different definition for a christian: that you have the spirit of christ, and are led by it.

but this is a functional test, along the lines of, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

not really popular among protestants.

By their 'fruits', not 'fruit';
Plural "fruits" (not fruit) should not be a popular concept among 'thinking' Quakers.


Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

kevin

^^^ uniintelligible.
anytime an atheist says that somebody else is wrong, or has some sort of inferior way of looking at the world, its reasonable to ask on what basis they are making that judgement. if they have no answer, you can disregard what they say -- tom terrific

eyeshaveit

Quote from: eyeshaveit on April 30, 2018, 06:21:56 AM
Quote from: kevin on April 29, 2018, 11:02:55 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2018, 08:54:20 PM

You cannot be any more unambiguous than that.  Yet, if I believe it then I'm not a Christian. 


that's because nobody was a christian before nicaea, apparently. you've encountered the protestant test for christianity, in which it's what you say that's important, rather than what happens to you.

one old quaker had a different definition for a christian: that you have the spirit of christ, and are led by it.

but this is a functional test, along the lines of, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

not really popular among protestants.

By their 'fruits', not 'fruit';
Plural "fruits" (not fruit) should not be a popular concept among 'thinking' Quakers.

Quote from: kevin on April 30, 2018, 09:06:17 AM
^^^ uniintelligible.

Possibly because it's directed toward a "thinking Quaker"?
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: eyeshaveit on April 30, 2018, 06:13:35 AM
There is no pie chart and certainly no human analogy to describe the Trinity, for instance:
A wife is subject to her husband; he has all the authority, but it's only a matter of form or structure.

If the trinity were true that would be a better analogy.  But God does not use that analogy.  They are father and son.  Being in subjection to a husband is not the same as being in subjection to a father.

QuoteAnd you are saying,
"It's not his "nature" that makes him God, it's his authority",

Right.  His nature makes him holy, his authority makes him God.  Him and Christ equally have that holy nature.  He is the perfect "image" of God.  My disbelief in the trinity isn't because of a disagreement with that.  It's the disagreement that they have equal authority.  The Father is always shown to be the one in authority.

QuoteBut the Son, Jesus Christ, He who created the Universe and everything in it, has lesser authority?   

"He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities?all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." - Collosians 1.

"Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, ?Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.? Jesus said to him, ?Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ?Show us the Father??" - John 14.

Yes, I believe all of these things.  Christ is the perfect image of God.  And Christ does have all authority the same as God.  There is only one difference. 

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  The giver of authority is greater than the receiver.  Christ has all the authority of his father.  He doesn't have his own authority. 

That is why I only consider the Father as Almighty God.  It's because he is the supreme authority.
 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
Quote from: eyeshaveit on April 30, 2018, 06:13:35 AM
There is no pie chart and certainly no human analogy to describe the Trinity, for instance:
A wife is subject to her husband; he has all the authority, but it's only a matter of form or structure.

If the trinity were true that would be a better analogy.  But God does not use that analogy.  They are father and son.  Being in subjection to a husband is not the same as being in subjection to a father.

There is no satisfactory analogy for the Trinity; you either believe that Christ is God or you don't. That's Christianity 101.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Case

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
His nature makes him holy, his authority makes him God.  Him and Christ equally have that holy nature.  He is the perfect "image" of God. 

Saying that Christ and the Father share a "nature" borders on Trinitarianism... three distinct persons in one divine nature.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
My disbelief in the trinity isn't because of a disagreement with that.  It's the disagreement that they have equal authority.  The Father is always shown to be the one in authority.

Philippians 2:6-11 tells us that before his incarnation, Christ was equal with God the Father, but he voluntarily submits to him. "Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant." The passage continues on to apply language about Jehovah from Isaiah 45 to Christ. So this passage is saying that Christ and his Father are Jehovah, with Christ emptying himself of all authority and with the Father exalting him and reinstating it.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 30, 2018, 08:00:48 PM
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  The giver of authority is greater than the receiver.  Christ has all the authority of his father.  He doesn't have his own authority. 

By his nature his authority is equal to the Father's, but he gives it up in submission. By making himself nothing he gains everything.
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Case

Quote from: kevin on April 29, 2018, 11:02:55 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on April 29, 2018, 08:54:20 PM

You cannot be any more unambiguous than that.  Yet, if I believe it then I'm not a Christian. 


that's because nobody was a christian before nicaea, apparently. you've encountered the protestant test for christianity, in which it's what you say that's important, rather than what happens to you.

one old quaker had a different definition for a christian: that you have the spirit of christ, and are led by it.

but this is a functional test, along the lines of, Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

not really popular among protestants.

kevin, I don't think this is a fair characterization.  ||razz||
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1