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Only 144,000 go to heaven.

Started by Teaspoon Shallow, March 05, 2016, 10:29:38 PM

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80sChild

Catch me up, I got stuck in a gay bathroom on another subject, dont let me do that again!
its a lot to read so Jst what are we talking about?


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Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 80sChild on June 19, 2016, 07:00:50 PM
Catch me up, I got stuck in a gay bathroom on another subject, dont let me do that again!
its a lot to read so Jst what are we talking about?


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I'm trying to allow TS to reason out for himself things about the serpent in the Genesis account.  However, since the inevitable claim "God does not exist" has come out TS only leaves one possible answer, that the account is made up gibberish.  This backs up what I said earlier that we are on the wrong subject.  A better subject is how can a person know God.



But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 19, 2016, 06:20:25 PM
1a.  "God dunnit" is a mechanism if you are going by what the Bible teaches and that is what your questions are about.  1b. You are moving the goal post.
1a.  Which of the following (if any) are you using?
Mechanism: mech?a?nism  (m?k??-n?z??m)
a. A machine or mechanical appliance.
b. The arrangement of connected parts in a machine.
2. A system of parts that operate or interact like those of a machine: the mechanism of the solar system.
3. An instrument or a process, physical or mental, by which something is done or comes into being: "The mechanism of oral learning is largely that of continuous repetition" (T.G.E. Powell).
4. A habitual manner of acting to achieve an end.
5. Psychology A usually unconscious mental and emotional pattern that shapes behavior in a given situation or environment: a defense mechanism.
6. The sequence of steps in a chemical reaction.
7. Philosophy The doctrine that all natural phenomena are explicable by material causes and mechanical principles.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mechanism

The specific definition I am using is 3. (bolded)

If god dunnit, by what mechanism did he do it?

1b. The goal posts were for you to clearly articulate the method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.  So far you have dodge doing this fundamental step and ignore it like it is not a huge problem for your position. 
Let me point to the posts for you to review and reply to the mechanism you employ to differentiate all that is literal from all that is metaphorical in the bible:
#6
#9
#11
#13
#15
#22
#23
#27
#31
#34
#40
#44
#47
#50
#53
That is just the ones in the thread.  You have to date refused to directly answer this question.
I am concluding you have no mechanism to differentiate the literal from the metaphorical.  Your claims that you do have been demonstrated to be wanting repeatedly.
Why is that?  Are you holding the truth back or do you not have the truth to share?

Quote from: Jst2.  I did not say everyone ignores God's instructions.  I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  Your understading is wrong.  To build faith you must have a foundation for faith, not of faith.
Please explain "He that approaches God must believe that he is and he is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him".
How do you approach god if you are not convinced he exists as you Jst, have described him?  Do I need reason or do I need faith?  This is a dichotomy, which is it?

Quote from: Jst4.  According to God's own testimony from heaven at Christ's baptism, Jesus is his son.
Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?
This is an actual trilema, can your dogma reconcile it?
Please do not ignore this as you have most of my questions in this thread.

Quote from: Jst5.  Jehovah is the English translation of God's name.  If you want to use the probable Hebrew pronunciation then go ahead.
Translation?  Most scholars believe that "Jehovah" to be a late (c. 1100 CE) hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

Why do you think this is literally gods name?

Did the JWs literally mess this up or metaphorically mess this up?

Quote from: Jst6.  I don't know how he will answer you.  If I could predict God's actions I would be a prophet.  I am not.

You predicted god will answer me, you just have no clue as to HOW he will. Well that is some truth I can take to the bank.... ||unsure|| 

Just believe you have received and answer and you will have that answer or some other really bad reasoning right?

Jst you are being very unreasonable.  Is your god a god of confusion?

Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
This leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?

Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?

Is that a reasonable position to hold?

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 20, 2016, 03:08:07 AM
I'm trying to allow TS to reason out for himself things about the serpent in the Genesis account.  However, since the inevitable claim "God does not exist" has come out TS only leaves one possible answer, that the account is made up gibberish.  This backs up what I said earlier that we are on the wrong subject.  A better subject is how can a person know God.

This bolded quote you have contributed to me in this thread, please quote my reply or retract this statement as an error you have made. 
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

80sChild

If I may, in my opinion the Word is  Jesus, John 1:1 meaning Jesus has been with God since the time of creation and the Word was God meaning, Jesus was Gods son.
John 1:14 Jesus (the Word) becomes man, dwells with us, as the son of our now known Father in heaven. 


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Teaspoon Shallow

@Jstwebbrowsing

Are you planning on addressing these posts?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?

1b.  Refer to reply #46.

2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.

3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.

4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?

5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.

6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.

7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.





6. 


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

80sChild

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 21, 2016, 08:31:51 PM
@Jstwebbrowsing

Are you planning on addressing these posts?

I think NO is your answer from what I can see.....


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80sChild

Kusa

Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kusa

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

I don't know what you know about any of that.  Please explain how you know heaven doesn't exist.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kusa

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

I don't know what you know about any of that.  Please explain how you know heaven doesn't exist.

There is zero evidence that it exists.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 21, 2016, 10:23:45 PM
1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?
What we are talking about:
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak. 
The objection remains, god dunnit is not a mechanism as I outlined in Reply #62

You asked "What mechanism did he use for what?"  I have provided you the answer to your question, now it is time for you to reciprocate.

Quote from: Jst1b.  Refer to reply #46.
DODGE.  You claim the bible contains metaphors but you are unable to provide a repeatable methodology of identifying them.  Your continuation to dodge this fundamental step is creating a stumbling block.  Why are you doing that?

Quote from: Jst2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.
"I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death."
Do JWs experience suffering and / or death? So the question remains unanswered:
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.
Playing games?  You are bearing false witness against me Jst.  May I remind you it is you who chose to play games and not share the truth you claim to have.  I once thought it was due to some confusion on your part.   You have now caused me to suspect dissimulation.  What is your game?

Quote from: Jst4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?
DODGE.  This has been a recurring tactic and you continue to fail to answer my questions.

Quote from: Jst5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.
You are not going to present and actual argument with supporting evidence, you are just going to claim it is true and gloss over possible errors you have adopted.    OK.

Quote from: Jst6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.
You cannot predict anyone will answer me but you did about your god.  But you have no clue how he will answer.
How did your god answer your prayers Jst?  Did you hear an actual voice?  Did you have a vision of some sort?  Did events happen that you assumed were the work of divine dabling?

Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
How well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?



"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 24, 2016, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 21, 2016, 10:23:45 PM
1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?
What we are talking about:
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak. 
The objection remains, god dunnit is not a mechanism as I outlined in Reply #62

You asked "What mechanism did he use for what?"  I have provided you the answer to your question, now it is time for you to reciprocate.

Quote from: Jst1b.  Refer to reply #46.
DODGE.  You claim the bible contains metaphors but you are unable to provide a repeatable methodology of identifying them.  Your continuation to dodge this fundamental step is creating a stumbling block.  Why are you doing that?

Quote from: Jst2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.
"I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death."
Do JWs experience suffering and / or death? So the question remains unanswered:
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.
Playing games?  You are bearing false witness against me Jst.  May I remind you it is you who chose to play games and not share the truth you claim to have.  I once thought it was due to some confusion on your part.   You have now caused me to suspect dissimulation.  What is your game?

Quote from: Jst4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?
DODGE.  This has been a recurring tactic and you continue to fail to answer my questions.

Quote from: Jst5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.
You are not going to present and actual argument with supporting evidence, you are just going to claim it is true and gloss over possible errors you have adopted.    OK.

Quote from: Jst6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.
You cannot predict anyone will answer me but you did about your god.  But you have no clue how he will answer.
How did your god answer your prayers Jst?  Did you hear an actual voice?  Did you have a vision of some sort?  Did events happen that you assumed were the work of divine dabling?

Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
How well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.

1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.

2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.

4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.

5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.

6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.

7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members" -
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Incorporated - Book - The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide - 1986 Edition - Page 10.

If Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross results in his being the mediator for only 144,000 earthlings, what about the rest of us - millions of folks - are we to be understood as being just dead in our sins?

(My bold)
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 08, 2016, 05:09:38 PM
1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.
Two things, I acknowledge your concession, thank you.
You added something I find really strange: "The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.".  The bible does not say Satan caused a serpent to speak at all.  That is your own rationalisation that I would like you to justify.   Please do not ignore this question like you have so many in this thread  By showing me your method we can use this to see if it works elsewhere.  That would actually be taking me step by step.  Are you going to do that?

Quote from: Jst1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.
You are mistaken Jst. Refer to REPLY#47  Can you show me any answers you have provided to these questions?
Will you please address them, actually take me step by step instead of dodging and then claiming you are actually doing something.


Quote from: Jst2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.
Let me remind you of what you said "I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.".
I want to see if what you say is true. 
Let me put it in a syllogism for your consideration and response.
P1. Ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
P2. Suffering and death are experienced by humans.
P3. Atheists are not immune and in fact experience suffering and death.
C. Atheists ignore God's instructions.

Is one or more premises wrong? 
Is this syllogism invalid? 


Quote from: Jst4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.
You failed to address 4 of my questions in this one paragraph.  Do you seem a common trend with your recent posting style?  Seems you cannot defend your position and you are in fact dodging.   You are demonstrating this with every question you dodge. 

Quote from: Jst5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.
OK.  How about tackling the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.

Quote from: Jst6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.
OK. How do you identify this imparting of holy spirit?  Lots of different people who self identify as Christians make similar assertions yet come to vastly different conclusions. So the assertion alone is a useless statement.




Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
Quote from: TSThis leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?
Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?
Is that a reasonable position to hold?
Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
Quote from: TSHow well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
Quote from: Jst7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.
I did not ask you to test it Jst, I asked you to reconcile John 1:1 + 1:14 with what you have been telling me for a multiple years. Seems you are unable to do that either.

I also asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

These basic questions remain neglected.
Are they not valid questions?
Or do you not have a valid answer? 
Not having an answer is OK Jst, please just let me know.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on July 10, 2016, 05:44:43 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 08, 2016, 05:09:38 PM
1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.
Two things, I acknowledge your concession, thank you.
You added something I find really strange: "The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.".  The bible does not say Satan caused a serpent to speak at all.  That is your own rationalisation that I would like you to justify.   Please do not ignore this question like you have so many in this thread  By showing me your method we can use this to see if it works elsewhere.  That would actually be taking me step by step.  Are you going to do that?

Quote from: Jst1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.
You are mistaken Jst. Refer to REPLY#47  Can you show me any answers you have provided to these questions?
Will you please address them, actually take me step by step instead of dodging and then claiming you are actually doing something.


Quote from: Jst2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.
Let me remind you of what you said "I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.".
I want to see if what you say is true. 
Let me put it in a syllogism for your consideration and response.
P1. Ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
P2. Suffering and death are experienced by humans.
P3. Atheists are not immune and in fact experience suffering and death.
C. Atheists ignore God's instructions.

Is one or more premises wrong? 
Is this syllogism invalid? 


Quote from: Jst4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.
You failed to address 4 of my questions in this one paragraph.  Do you seem a common trend with your recent posting style?  Seems you cannot defend your position and you are in fact dodging.   You are demonstrating this with every question you dodge. 

Quote from: Jst5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.
OK.  How about tackling the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.

Quote from: Jst6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.
OK. How do you identify this imparting of holy spirit?  Lots of different people who self identify as Christians make similar assertions yet come to vastly different conclusions. So the assertion alone is a useless statement.




Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
Quote from: TSThis leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?
Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?
Is that a reasonable position to hold?
Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
Quote from: TSHow well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
Quote from: Jst7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.
I did not ask you to test it Jst, I asked you to reconcile John 1:1 + 1:14 with what you have been telling me for a multiple years. Seems you are unable to do that either.

I also asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

These basic questions remain neglected.
Are they not valid questions?
Or do you not have a valid answer? 
Not having an answer is OK Jst, please just let me know.

1.  Now that that is settled you can answer my question.  How could the serpent in Genesis speak?

2.  I don't need to refer back.  Are you ready to go through the process?  Step one is reasoning and logic.  Refer to #1.

3.  Your syllogism doesn't make sense.  Compare:

P1 Unwashed hands lead to sickness.
P2 Sickness is experienced by humans.
P3 Atheists are not immune but suffer sickness.
P4 Atheists don't wash their hands.

Again, I am not positing anything about JWs.

4.  No I am not.  I am simply refusing to reinvent the wheel by reproducing information that is already readily available about John 1:1.  Since different translations render it differently (see John 1:1 on Wiki for examples) I see no reason to assume the translation you quoted most accurately conveys the meaning and your question depends on that translation being the most accurate.

5.  Right.  Step one is reasoning and logic.  See #1 above.

6.  By knowing myself and recognizing a holy spirit that does not originate with me.  However this too is a different topic.

7.   Right.  Your question doesn't make sense in light of my statement that I rely on the scriptures because they work.  It is not possible to put John 1:1 into practice to see if it works.  You are making a category error.

9.   You should form your own conclusions rather than accepting/rejecting mine.  Refer to #1 above.  If you are not interested in using your own reasoning then there is no need to continue. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 18, 2016, 05:44:52 PM
1.  Now that that is settled you can answer my question.  How could the serpent in Genesis speak?
I do not know of a mechanism to make the serpent in Genesis speak. 

Quote from: Jwb2.  I don't need to refer back.  Are you ready to go through the process?  Step one is reasoning and logic.  Refer to #1.
Sure

Quote from: Jwb3.  Your syllogism doesn't make sense.  Compare:

P1 Unwashed hands lead to sickness.
P2 Sickness is experienced by humans.
P3 Atheists are not immune but suffer sickness.
P4 Atheists don't wash their hands.

Again, I am not positing anything about JWs.

OK, lets see if you can clarify your post for me. Here is your quote: "....ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and even death.  This is directly demonstratable in many instances from the reality we see around us." (reply #57)

Can obeying gods instructions also lead to suffering and death?   

Quote from: Jwb4.  No I am not.  I am simply refusing to reinvent the wheel by reproducing information that is already readily available about John 1:1.  Since different translations render it differently (see John 1:1 on Wiki for examples) I see no reason to assume the translation you quoted most accurately conveys the meaning and your question depends on that translation being the most accurate.
Let us use the New World Translation:

John 1:1
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
John 1:14
"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?
This is an actual trilemma, can you reconcile it?

Quote from: Jwb5.  Right.  Step one is reasoning and logic.  See #1 above.
Does that clearly show me the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible?

Quote from: Jwb6.  By knowing myself and recognizing a holy spirit that does not originate with me.  However this too is a different topic.
How do you recognise this holy spirit? Feel free to start a new thread if you prefer.

Quote from: Jwb7.   Right.  Your question doesn't make sense in light of my statement that I rely on the scriptures because they work.  It is not possible to put John 1:1 into practice to see if it works.  You are making a category error.
Is your point that not all scripture works?

Quote from: Jwb9.   You should form your own conclusions rather than accepting/rejecting mine.  Refer to #1 above.  If you are not interested in using your own reasoning then there is no need to continue.
1 John 4:1 New World Translation
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

You claim the bible contains metaphors, I have asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

1.  Okay so something is obviously amiss because the serpent spoke.  What about mechanisms that make it appear the serpent is speaking?

3.  Sometimes it has.

4.  Yes it is about Christ.  However, when studying the scriptures in depth, I don't think it is wise to soley rely on any one translation alone.  After comparisons of various tranlations, immediate context, and the scriptures as a whole, it appears to me that it is saying that Christ is the perfect image of God.  He is God in that he possesses the fullness of God's spirit, and his divine (heavenly) nature.  It's just like saying Christians form Christ's body.  They are not literally Christ, but insofar as they possess the spirit of Christ they are Christ and even speak to God in the name of Christ.   

Christ prayed "may they all (his disciples) be one AS we are one."  For me this removes all mystery.  As Christians are one with Christ so Christ is with Jehovah.  This is another example of allowing the Bible to give meaning to it's own metaphors.

5.  See below.

6.  By coming to know that spirit from examining it's past that's recorded in the scriptures.  Once you are familiar with it's workings, you can recognize it in the world.  Compare that to being able to pick out an intimate associate from a crowd based on their behavior.  It's not infallible but it is possible and the closer you are and the more you know about that person the easier it becomes.  It also depends on the power of your perception.

7.  No I am saying that not all scriptures can be practiced.  Those that can be practiced can be tested to see if they achieve the results the scriptures predict.  "God is in heaven" isn't something one can say "works".  It isn't something testable. 

8.  Why bring up 1 John?  An "inspired expression" is what I am declining to give you.  Instead I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.

Mechanism:  The mechanisms for understanding the scriptures is dilligent study and reliance on God.  Interpretations belong to him.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 06:43:37 AM

I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.

Are you sure individuals are allowed to do that? What about the organization ("the faithful and discreet slave"), what about them? Aren't you afraid of apostate doctrines? See below \/ \/ \/ \/ \/.

"Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book" - "The Watchtower" - July 1, 1973 - Page 402.

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible" - "The Watchtower" - October 1, 1967 - Page 587.

"We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization" - "The Watchtower" - February 15, 1981.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago" - "The Watchtower" - August 15, 1981.

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave" - "The Watchtower" - October 1, 1994 - Page 8.

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

The Bible also helps us recognize other spirits, particularly satanic ones.  These are characterized, not by helping others draw close to God, but by accusations and temptations of others.  Consider the behavior of the religious leaders of Christ's time.  Rather than sheperding their flock, they spent their time trying to draw away Christ's disciples by trolling behind him looking for reasons to accuse him.  Not only were they not opening any doors for others, they were trying to close the door that God had opened by silencing Christ.

So even though some people talk a lot about the Gospel of God, by their fruits (or by the spirit they show) you can know them for what they really are.  Do they try to help you draw close to God, or do they stone wall you while trying to stop those that are trying to help you?

I have nothing to do with satanic spirits and I am not going to respond to Eyes.  If you want to listen to Eyes then he has a thread for talking about JWs and one for talking about Catholics too.  I will not interfere.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 06:43:37 AM
1.  Okay so something is obviously amiss because the serpent spoke.
I agree, in the narrative a serpent spoke.
Was there an actual snake? 
Did it actually speak?
You agreed previously this could be a metaphor, if it is then asking questions like "how did X do Y" seems kind of pointless as it misses the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree?
I think the more important thing is to understand what the message the writer was trying to convey.  We all make a model in our minds about reality but is not reality itself.  You have an understanding (construction of a model in your mind), the procedure you used to build that model is important to 1. build other models using the same logic 2. test if it is reasonable or unreasonable.

Quote from: JstWhat about mechanisms that make it appear the serpent is speaking?
There are a lot illusory ways this could happen, if it did happen at all.
Again, as you advised this could be metaphorical.
If it is metaphorical then it did not actual occur in reality as described.


Quote from: Jst3.  Sometimes it has.
To summarise, heeding or ignoring gods instruction's can lead to suffering and death.  If that is true suffering and death are going to occur regardless of your actions.

Quote from: Jst4.  Yes it is about Christ.  However, when studying the scriptures in depth, I don't think it is wise to soley rely on any one translation alone.  After comparisons of various tranlations, immediate context, and the scriptures as a whole, it appears to me that it is saying that Christ is the perfect image of God.  He is God in that he possesses the fullness of God's spirit, and his divine (heavenly) nature.  It's just like saying Christians form Christ's body.  They are not literally Christ, but insofar as they possess the spirit of Christ they are Christ and even speak to God in the name of Christ.   

Christ prayed "may they all (his disciples) be one AS we are one."  For me this removes all mystery.  As Christians are one with Christ so Christ is with Jehovah.  This is another example of allowing the Bible to give meaning to it's own metaphors.
Let us speak clearly and not ambiguously, given the two scriptures John 1:1 & John 1:14
Is Jesus literally:
1. a true god
2. a false god
3. not a god at all
4. you do not know

Quote from: Jst6.  By coming to know that spirit from examining it's past that's recorded in the scriptures.  Once you are familiar with it's workings, you can recognize it in the world.  Compare that to being able to pick out an intimate associate from a crowd based on their behavior.  It's not infallible but it is possible and the closer you are and the more you know about that person the easier it becomes.  It also depends on the power of your perception.
If a phenomenon is observed but the cause is wrongly assert, then every time you see that phenomenon will you will be attributing the wrong cause.  What is more important is to demonstrate the cause and that seems to be lacking.

Quote from: Jst7.  No I am saying that not all scriptures can be practiced.  Those that can be practiced can be tested to see if they achieve the results the scriptures predict.  "God is in heaven" isn't something one can say "works".  It isn't something testable. 
Interpretation can be tested. 
If you interpret the bible literally, then the method is reasonably clear.  The problem with this method if something contradictory is discovered it will demonstrate claims in the bible are false.  This is a good thing as it is not ambiguous and the bible can stand on its own merits and not of those trying to prop it up with reasoning.

If you claim the bible contains metaphors your reasoning becomes very cloudy and open to personal interpretations. This method can be used regardless of the intentions of the original story teller, scribe, editor and the inspiration source.  Making it non falsifiable and practically useless for determining truth.  This would lead to all sorts of confusion and arguments.  If you use this method you would expect to find schisms and division.  A house divided with an author of confusion.   

Quote from: Jst8.  Why bring up 1 John?  An "inspired expression" is what I am declining to give you.  Instead I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.
Is 1 Peter 3:15 metaphorical?

Quote from: JstMechanism:  The mechanisms for understanding the scriptures is dilligent study and reliance on God.  Interpretations belong to him.
If that were true Jst, you would expect Christians who have equally studied the bible to form the same conclusions (being guided by God). You would expect Christians would be united under the one true church. But that is not what history has demonstrated.
So I do not see your proposed mechanism consistently & reliably leading to understanding the scripture. 
Why does your mechanism fail for so many? 
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

eyeshaveit

#83
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
The Bible also helps us recognize other spirits, particularly satanic ones.  These are characterized, not by helping others draw close to God, but by accusations and temptations of others.  Consider the behavior of the religious leaders of Christ's time.  Rather than sheperding their flock, they spent their time trying to draw away Christ's disciples by trolling behind him looking for reasons to accuse him.  Not only were they not opening any doors for others, they were trying to close the door that God had opened by silencing Christ.

True faith elevates not a delight in human effort and performance. True faith extols and reveres what God has done; what Jehovah is doing.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved" - John 10.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
So even though some people talk a lot about the Gospel of God, by their fruits (or by the spirit they show) you can know them for what they really are.  Do they try to help you draw close to God, or do they stone wall you while trying to stop those that are trying to help you?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Incorporated teachings are based on "bible principles". Jehovah's witnesses have instructed, in the pages of The Watchtower, about hundreds of bible principles. But people realized their total inability to keep such a never-ending list; they know that they are sinners, who can't keep this law and they cry out for mercy.

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." - John 10.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
I have nothing to do with satanic spirits and I am not going to respond to Eyes.

Bible principles, by definition, direct attention to sin, and once convicted of sin, you must turn to Jesus Christ to be healed.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.