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Only 144,000 go to heaven.

Started by Teaspoon Shallow, March 05, 2016, 10:29:38 PM

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Teaspoon Shallow

Jehovah's Witnesses are taught and report only 144,000 go to heaven.

Scriptures used to support their dogma are:
Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

In a book filled with metaphors (as they depart from reality and as suspended in fantasy) how do the JW's determine this is a literal quantification?

Jstwebbrousing has advised parts of Genesis 3 are literal and other parts are metaphorical.
When pressed for the method how to determine the difference the answer was not forthcoming.

So how can the JWs determine this number is literal and not metaphorical? 
Can their position be supported with good reason or just assertion and blind obedience to other men?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Kusa

Check out the last verse. There were multitudes of all nations that added to the 144,000.

Quote
Revelation 7:4-9King James Version (KJV)

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Andy S.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 05, 2016, 10:29:38 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses are taught and report only 144,000 go to heaven.

Scriptures used to support their dogma are:
Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins.

In a book filled with metaphors (as they depart from reality and as suspended in fantasy) how do the JW's determine this is a literal quantification?

Jstwebbrousing has advised parts of Genesis 3 are literal and other parts are metaphorical.
When pressed for the method how to determine the difference the answer was not forthcoming.

So how can the JWs determine this number is literal and not metaphorical? 
Can their position be supported with good reason or just assertion and blind obedience to other men?

If the number is literal then shouldn't the rest of all of this be literal?  Shouldn't the 144,000 actually be descendants of Israel (Rev. 7:4)?

And they all have to be virgins right? (Rev. 14:4)

This God doesn't want anyone in heaven to be "defiled with women" right? (Rev. 14:4)

Soooo......God is going to create women for men to have sex with but a man who has sex with a woman will not go to "heaven"?  Ooooookaaaayyy!
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman!"
- Homer Simpson

Quote from: kevin on February 23, 2015, 08:19:43 AM

you're still a christian, andy, just a non-believing one.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Andy S. on March 08, 2016, 12:52:35 AM
If the number is literal then shouldn't the rest of all of this be literal?  Shouldn't the 144,000 actually be descendants of Israel (Rev. 7:4)?

And they all have to be virgins right? (Rev. 14:4)

This God doesn't want anyone in heaven to be "defiled with women" right? (Rev. 14:4)

Soooo......God is going to create women for men to have sex with but a man who has sex with a woman will not go to "heaven"?  Ooooookaaaayyy!

You are straight onto it Andy.  ||thumbs||
It seems a book that contains metaphors but does not explicitly identify them is a book of confusion.

I would like to see the argument God is not the author of confusion?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Andy S.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 08, 2016, 02:25:48 AM
Quote from: Andy S. on March 08, 2016, 12:52:35 AM
If the number is literal then shouldn't the rest of all of this be literal?  Shouldn't the 144,000 actually be descendants of Israel (Rev. 7:4)?

And they all have to be virgins right? (Rev. 14:4)

This God doesn't want anyone in heaven to be "defiled with women" right? (Rev. 14:4)

Soooo......God is going to create women for men to have sex with but a man who has sex with a woman will not go to "heaven"?  Ooooookaaaayyy!

You are straight onto it Andy.  ||thumbs||
It seems a book that contains metaphors but does not explicitly identify them is a book of confusion.

I would like to see the argument God is not the author of confusion?

But.....if this book is all literal.....maybe God predestined male eunuchs to be the 144,000 (Matt. 19:12). 

Note: I would hate to be the guy with a voice in my head that says, "make yourself a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:12).  I honestly have to say that to make myself  a "eunuch" would be "hell" on earth.   

I'm actually surprised, if this is all taken literal, that more JW men aren't single.  I would really think you would want to make yourself eunuch "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" to try to achieve life in "heaven" since.....you know......it's "heaven".

     
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman!"
- Homer Simpson

Quote from: kevin on February 23, 2015, 08:19:43 AM

you're still a christian, andy, just a non-believing one.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 05, 2016, 10:29:38 PM
Jstwebbrousing has advised parts of Genesis 3 are literal and other parts are metaphorical.
When pressed for the method how to determine the difference the answer was not forthcoming.

I did explain it to you.

QuoteSo how can the JWs determine this number is literal and not metaphorical? 
Can their position be supported with good reason or just assertion and blind obedience to other men?

All non-Witness interpretations I have read also count this as a literal number.  What marks Witnesses different is the belief these are spiritual Jews rather than natural Jews.

From what I know, it is counted as literal because of the stress placed on the number.  Not only is it repeated but it's also broken down into multiples of 12,000.  Also it is contrasted with Revelation 7:9 where we are told about a "great crowd" that "noone could number".

Also, it is unlike Genesis 3 where we are directly supplied with the meaning of a symbol.

So blind obedience has nothing to do with it. 

The closest I have ever come to blind obedience was in following the scriptures when it came to avoiding abusive persons, while my own reasoning and natural tendancies prompted me to confront bullies. 


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 14, 2016, 09:37:17 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 05, 2016, 10:29:38 PM
Jstwebbrousing has advised parts of Genesis 3 are literal and other parts are metaphorical.
When pressed for the method how to determine the difference the answer was not forthcoming.

I did explain it to you.

Hi Jst.  Unfortunately I disagree with you on this point.  You provided no methodology that could be reliably reproduced to distinguish literal from metaphorical.  I would be happy to change to topic of this thread if you would like to go over it in detail here?

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSSo how can the JWs determine this number is literal and not metaphorical? 
Can their position be supported with good reason or just assertion and blind obedience to other men?

All non-Witness interpretations I have read also count this as a literal number.
Why is that?

Quote from: JstWhat marks Witnesses different is the belief these are spiritual Jews rather than natural Jews.
How did they determine this?
It looks to me they interpret what they want to fit their own understanding but when it interferes with gaining more members, they flip flop and change their "understanding".
For example:
- "Millions now living will never die (1925)".
- The worship of Jesus.
The list could go on but this will suffice.


Quote from: JstFrom what I know, it is counted as literal because of the stress placed on the number.  Not only is it repeated but it's also broken down into multiples of 12,000.  Also it is contrasted with Revelation 7:9 where we are told about a "great crowd" that "noone could number".
How does that demonstrate it is meant to be literal?  Just like Genesis creation account, the global flood, the Tower of Babel, Adam, Eve and the punishment.  What distinguishes the literal from the non literal?  In other words, what clearly identifiable features do all literal have that metaphorical do nat have?  If we were going to separate into two distinct boxes all of the literal and all of the metaphorical, how would you teach someone how to tell them apart?   

Quote from: JstAlso, it is unlike Genesis 3 where we are directly supplied with the meaning of a symbol.

So blind obedience has nothing to do with it. 

The closest I have ever come to blind obedience was in following the scriptures when it came to avoiding abusive persons, while my own reasoning and natural tendancies prompted me to confront bullies.
OK.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 18, 2016, 12:15:38 PM
Hi Jst.  Unfortunately I disagree with you on this point.  You provided no methodology that could be reliably reproduced to distinguish literal from metaphorical.  I would be happy to change to topic of this thread if you would like to go over it in detail here?

The same method people apply in their everyday life to distinguish between the two.  If you can make sense of the following they you too can distinguish the difference.

I do not want you to be left in the dark, but I feel like we are going to talk about it until the cows come home.  The fact is that symbolism is not limited to the Bible, but can be found in every corner of the world.   Have you ever felt the blues or been left feeling like a square?  Have you ever counted your eggs bofore they hatch or had your chickens come home to roost?  Have you ever been green with envy or ever had to deal with the jealousy monster?  When everyday people speak in metaphors do you put on your thinking cap and understand the dark of it or do you just hear the empty rattle of their bone box?  It's enough to make a berk go barmy?

So does the above make use of metaphors?  How do you know?

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 20, 2016, 03:45:54 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 18, 2016, 12:15:38 PM
Hi Jst.  Unfortunately I disagree with you on this point.  You provided no methodology that could be reliably reproduced to distinguish literal from metaphorical.  I would be happy to change to topic of this thread if you would like to go over it in detail here?

The same method people apply in their everyday life to distinguish between the two.  If you can make sense of the following they you too can distinguish the difference.

I do not want you to be left in the dark, but I feel like we are going to talk about it until the cows come home.  The fact is that symbolism is not limited to the Bible, but can be found in every corner of the world.   Have you ever felt the blues or been left feeling like a square?  Have you ever counted your eggs bofore they hatch or had your chickens come home to roost?  Have you ever been green with envy or ever had to deal with the jealousy monster?  When everyday people speak in metaphors do you put on your thinking cap and understand the dark of it or do you just hear the empty rattle of their bone box?  It's enough to make a berk go barmy?

So does the above make use of metaphors?  How do you know?
this is off topic
the topic is Genesis 3
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 20, 2016, 03:45:54 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 18, 2016, 12:15:38 PM
Hi Jst.  Unfortunately I disagree with you on this point.  You provided no methodology that could be reliably reproduced to distinguish literal from metaphorical.  I would be happy to change to topic of this thread if you would like to go over it in detail here?

The same method people apply in their everyday life to distinguish between the two.  If you can make sense of the following they you too can distinguish the difference.

I do not want you to be left in the dark, but I feel like we are going to talk about it until the cows come home.  The fact is that symbolism is not limited to the Bible, but can be found in every corner of the world.   Have you ever felt the blues or been left feeling like a square?  Have you ever counted your eggs bofore they hatch or had your chickens come home to roost?  Have you ever been green with envy or ever had to deal with the jealousy monster?  When everyday people speak in metaphors do you put on your thinking cap and understand the dark of it or do you just hear the empty rattle of their bone box?  It's enough to make a berk go barmy?

So does the above make use of metaphors?  How do you know?

"Metaphors are meant to create an impact in the minds of readers. The aim of this literary tool is to convey a thought more forcefully than a plain statement would.

They are exaggerated expressions no doubt, but they are exaggerated because they are supposed to paint a vivid picture, or become a profound statement or saying."

http://examples.yourdictionary.com/metaphor-examples.html#FQvSSIfeOX6SPDBW.99

I will ask again Jst as it is a crucial tool for understanding the bible the way you interpret it:
In the bible, what distinguishes the literal from the non literal? 
In other words, what clearly identifiable features that all literal descriptions have that metaphorical do nat have? 
If we were going to separate into two distinct boxes all of the literal and all of the metaphorical, how would you teach someone how to tell them apart?

If you do not know this mechanism, how are you justified in not employing a literal interpretation? 

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

I am trying to explain it to you but it appears you do not want to participate.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Jst I appreciate you explaining it to me and I am honestly trying to understand.
We both know there are biblical literalists who adhere to the exact word.  They claim the bible is inerrant.

Others use a different method and employ their own (or adopted) rationalisation and will claim certain passages are metaphors. What I want to learn is the methodology you use to determine what is and is not metaphorical.

If you were a teacher, how would you teach a child how to identify all of the metaphors in the bible?  Are you able to do that?

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 21, 2016, 12:00:26 AM
If you were a teacher, how would you teach a child how to identify all of the metaphors in the bible?  Are you able to do that?

No.  I do not think I can identify all the metaphors in the Bible.  I am still learning as I go along.  To me, the Bible is a many layered book that is easy to learn but hard to master because it is so interconnected forwards and backwards.  I may never learn everything the Bible has to teach.

Genesis 3 is a good example.  If a person were to read the Bible from beginning to end they may come to suspect the serpent was Satan while progressing, but the truth of it would not be confirmed until Revelation. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 22, 2016, 01:27:50 PM
No.  I do not think I can identify all the metaphors in the Bible.  I am still learning as I go along.
If you do not have the tools to systematically identify the metaphors, how can you be so sure that what you currently identified as metaphors is correct?


Quote from: JstTo me, the Bible is a many layered book that is easy to learn but hard to master because it is so interconnected forwards and backwards.  I may never learn everything the Bible has to teach.
Is it possible you are making connections where none were intended?  You are drawing false conclusions by employing your own fallacious reasoning?

Quote from: JstGenesis 3 is a good example.  If a person were to read the Bible from beginning to end they may come to suspect the serpent was Satan while progressing, but the truth of it would not be confirmed until Revelation.
Again, that may be your understanding but was that the intention of the author of Genesis?
How could you be confident in your interpretation?

The lack of a falsifiable methodology but continuing to draw conclusions regardless is abandoning reason.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 12:32:46 AM
If you do not have the tools to systematically identify the metaphors, how can you be so sure that what you currently identified as metaphors is correct?

I didn't say I don't have the tools, but having the tools and mastering the tools are two different things.

QuoteIs it possible you are making connections where none were intended?  You are drawing false conclusions by employing your own fallacious reasoning?

Just like with anything, it is certainly possible to make a mistake.  Noone is infallible, but some things are more certain that others.  This is no different than some other areas of study.  Even in science, some things are more firmly established than others.

QuoteAgain, that may be your understanding but was that the intention of the author of Genesis?
How could you be confident in your interpretation?

That is not an interpretation.  Those are the words of the inspired writer of Revelation.  It is not required that the writer of Genesis understood the indentification of the serpent.  Through later inspired writings, Jehovah identified the serpent for us. 

QuoteThe lack of a falsifiable methodology but continuing to draw conclusions regardless is abandoning reason.

That is not what I have done.  The tool I am using is allowing the Bible to explain itself.  The hard part is searching out where the Bible provides the explanation.  The identification of the serpent is one of the easy ones.  I have not just pulled Satan out of thin air because I like the idea.  It is what the Bible itself says.

Not only that but we all know that serpents do not speak one their own.  So the question isn't is someone making it speak, but who is making it speak.  What is certain is the Satan was behind the talking serpent.  What is not known is how this was accomplished.  Did Satan actually make it speak or did it just appear to be speaking like a ventriloquist can do, or did Satan actually transform himself into a serpent, or was it accomplished is yet another way.  But what is certain is that Satan was behind it.

And the identification is falsifiable.  If I were to say that Bob was making the serpent speak, it would be falsifiable by the words in Revelation.



But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 23, 2016, 04:32:26 PM
I didn't say I don't have the tools, but having the tools and mastering the tools are two different things.
Cool.  Can you explain what these tools are and can you explain how you use these tools accurately?

Quote from: jst
Just like with anything, it is certainly possible to make a mistake.  Noone is infallible, but some things are more certain that others.  This is no different than some other areas of study.  Even in science, some things are more firmly established than others.
OK.  Could you be wrong about things you claim are metaphorical, even about things you think are very well established?

Quote from: JstThat is not an interpretation.  Those are the words of the inspired writer of Revelation.  It is not required that the writer of Genesis understood the indentification of the serpent.  Through later inspired writings, Jehovah identified the serpent for us.
When you say Jehovah identified the serpent for us, how can you be sure you have understood this message accurately?
Gen 3 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made."  Is the serpent a wild animal that the Lord created or is the serpent not a wild animal that the Lord created?
How did you determine the answer to this?

Quote from: JstThat is not what I have done.  The tool I am using is allowing the Bible to explain itself.
That may be the case and I want to find out the mechanism you are using and how it can be used reliably in every case.
The identification and explanation of the mechanisms and properties of this tool is the key point. 
What is it and how do you know where to use it?

Quote from: JstThe hard part is searching out where the Bible provides the explanation.
I understand this may have to be extra biblical, relying on your own understanding kind of thing and I am OK with that.
Can you explain what you are doing and how you are rationally justified in using this tool?

Quote from: JstThe identification of the serpent is one of the easy ones.  I have not just pulled Satan out of thin air because I like the idea.  It is what the Bible itself says.

Not only that but we all know that serpents do not speak one their own.  So the question isn't is someone making it speak, but who is making it speak.  What is certain is the Satan was behind the talking serpent.  What is not known is how this was accomplished.  Did Satan actually make it speak or did it just appear to be speaking like a ventriloquist can do, or did Satan actually transform himself into a serpent, or was it accomplished is yet another way.  But what is certain is that Satan was behind it.

How certain are you of this? I am assuming you are referring to Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 to form this opinion (as most of Christendom have done).  Can you justify assertion that the snake in Genesis is Satan?

Quote from: JstAnd the identification is falsifiable.  If I were to say that Bob was making the serpent speak, it would be falsifiable by the words in Revelation.

This demonstration may help me understand what you are talking about.

Thanks Jst.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 07:47:40 PM
Cool.  Can you explain what these tools are and can you explain how you use these tools accurately?

I have explained one.  The tool is to take the Bible at it's word.  Revelation identifies the serpent.  What more could be needed?

QuoteOK.  Could you be wrong about things you claim are metaphorical, even about things you think are very well established?

In this example, no.  I have not inserted an opinion, so I can be neither right nor wrong.  I have simply reported what is written in the Bible.  The Bible is the one that says the serpent is Satan, not me.

QuoteWhen you say Jehovah identified the serpent for us, how can you be sure you have understood this message accurately?

It is as accurate as my understanding of words.  I understand the meaning of words.

QuoteIs the serpent a wild animal that the Lord created or is the serpent not a wild animal that the Lord created?

You yourself have just provided the answer that is recorded in the scriptures.

QuoteThat may be the case and I want to find out the mechanism you are using and how it can be used reliably in every case.
The identification and explanation of the mechanisms and properties of this tool is the key point. 
What is it and how do you know where to use it?

The tool is putting everything together the Bible teaches on a subject.  You use it everywhere.

QuoteI understand this may have to be extra biblical, relying on your own understanding kind of thing and I am OK with that.

The more you rely on your own understanding the more susceptible you are to error.

QuoteCan you explain what you are doing and how you are rationally justified in using this tool?

I have just explained it.  You simply report what is recorded in the scriptures.

QuoteHow certain are you of this? I am assuming you are referring to Revelation 12:9 and 20:2 to form this opinion (as most of Christendom have done).  Can you justify assertion that the snake in Genesis is Satan?

I am very certain.  The scriptures only place one serpent in the pool of possibilities.  The serpent also speaks with a spirit of rebellion, or resistence to God.  By definition, that is the spirit of Satan.  So the spirit behind the serpent was Satan. 









 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 12:26:05 AM
I have explained one.  The tool is to take the Bible at it's word.  Revelation identifies the serpent.  What more could be needed?

Sorry I am not sure I follow. I understand you think the Genesis account is metaphorical and the 2 passages in Revelation  (that are filled with the nonsensical) are meant to be understood literally but I want to know how you have determined this to be the case.

Quote from: JstIn this example, no.  I have not inserted an opinion, so I can be neither right nor wrong.  I have simply reported what is written in the Bible.  The Bible is the one that says the serpent is Satan, not me.

You have linked the serpent spoken about in Revelation with the serpent spoken about in Genesis.  I know this is no theological Everest but I want to understand the mechanics behind the action.  Why have you done that when it does not specifically reference Genesis?  I am hoping we can use this foundation to move to a few other examples so I can get it.

Quote from: JstIt is as accurate as my understanding of words.  I understand the meaning of words.
How have you determined the reference to the serpent in Revelation is not the metaphor?

Quote from: JstYou yourself have just provided the answer that is recorded in the scriptures.
Is that the literal answer or is that just a metaphor for something else?
If the serpent in Genesis is a metaphor, then could the whole of Genesis be a metaphorical too?

Quote from: JstThe tool is putting everything together the Bible teaches on a subject.  You use it everywhere.
Let me examine this one for example:
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

These two passages appear to be contradictory.  Was Jesus wrong?  Is the passage in Exodus wrong?  Or was the God seen by Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel not the Father but another God, Jesus perhaps?

Or is there a metaphor in there somewhere and if so, how can we identify it?


Quote from: JstThe more you rely on your own understanding the more susceptible you are to error.
I do agree with you but I am not sure how else to determine what could be a metaphor as, like you said, it is hard to find where in the bible it explains these things.

Quote from: JstI have just explained it.  You simply report what is recorded in the scriptures.
I am trying to get it but it just does not make sense to me yet.

Quote from: JstI am very certain.  The scriptures only place one serpent in the pool of possibilities.  The serpent also speaks with a spirit of rebellion, or resistence to God.  By definition, that is the spirit of Satan.  So the spirit behind the serpent was Satan.
Unless it never happened and the story is a metaphor which I am trying to exclude because it would make it simpler but that may be a mistake. So we come back to the question, how can we accurately identify a metaphor in the bible?

Thanks for your patience.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

#18
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 24, 2016, 05:24:46 AM
Sorry I am not sure I follow. I understand you think the Genesis account is metaphorical and the 2 passages in Revelation  (that are filled with the nonsensical) are meant to be understood literally but I want to know how you have determined this to be the case.

Even in Revelation it is still metaphor because Satan is not actually an animal but a spirit.

QuoteYou have linked the serpent spoken about in Revelation with the serpent spoken about in Genesis.  I know this is no theological Everest but I want to understand the mechanics behind the action.  Why have you done that when it does not specifically reference Genesis?  I am hoping we can use this foundation to move to a few other examples so I can get it.

You need to understand that even though there were different writers that Jehovah is the author.  The Bible contains a progressive revelation so you cannot take Genesis as a stand alone.  It is part of a larger whole.  The writers themselves were not privy to the entire revelation.  They only knew what was revealed at the time.  They did not have the whole picture.

It could be compared to the instructions given about speaking in tongues.  There was to be a speaker and an interpreter.  The speakers didn't even know what they were saying.  The interpretation was revealed sperately by another person.  Likewise, what the Bible reveals to one writer may be interpreted by another writer.  So while the writer of Genesis may not have even known about the existence of Satan, he was revealed in later writings.  The Bible could be likened to a puzzle where various writers held seperate pieces.

QuoteHow have you determined the reference to the serpent in Revelation is not the metaphor?

It is metaphor. 

QuoteIs that the literal answer or is that just a metaphor for something else?
If the serpent in Genesis is a metaphor, then could the whole of Genesis be a metaphorical too?

Well yes, it is something to consider since it does contain metaphor.  The account does contain other metaphors, but creation itself is never used as a metaphor in the scriptures even though it is referenced many times.  So the same justification is not present like it is for the identification of the serpent.

QuoteLet me examine this one for example:
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

These two passages appear to be contradictory.  Was Jesus wrong?  Is the passage in Exodus wrong?  Or was the God seen by Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel not the Father but another God, Jesus perhaps?

Or is there a metaphor in there somewhere and if so, how can we identify it?

Yes, that is how you do it, although there are other scriptures to be gathered on that subject before attempting to form conclusions.  I am not ready to tackle this one with you because it is a more difficult subject.  If I cannot move you past the most simplest of examples, there is no need to tackle a significatly more difficult one.

QuoteI do agree with you but I am not sure how else to determine what could be a metaphor as, like you said, it is hard to find where in the bible it explains these things.

There is no replacement for familarity.  The more familiar you are with the scriptures the more fruitful searching them will become.  Also, the more you are familiar with it's use of language, the easier it becomes.  In my modern examples, a few posts ago, you likely were able to identify the metaphors because you are familiar with that use of language.  The scriptures, however, were not written using any modern use of language.  So the more familiar you are with it's use of language, the better.

Also, no man is an island and the Bible warns us against isolation (Pr 18:1).   We all need help in understanding the scriptures.  While the Bible warns us of false teachers, it also tells us of the existence of legitimate teachers (Eph 4:11).  They were not provided for vanity.  They are an integral part of Jehovah's purposes.  So be aware there are false teachers but at the same time legitimate teachers need to be identified.  They can be identified by their spirit.  Do they show the same spirit as Christ?  That is the first test.  Not that any will be perfect but you should see a definate similarity between them and Christ in their attitudes and behavior.  If that similarity is not there then that person does not have holy spirit and is instead motivated by a different, self-seeking, spirit.  That person is not to be trusted. 

Another integral part is Jehovah himself.  Only the spirit of God discerns the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).  The scriptures teach that if we ask for that spirit we will receive it (Luke 11:13).  So if you really want to understand, along with dilligent searching (Pr 2:3-5), you are going to have to break down and ask for that spirit.

QuoteUnless it never happened and the story is a metaphor which I am trying to exclude because it would make it simpler but that may be a mistake. So we come back to the question, how can we accurately identify a metaphor in the bible?

If the whole story is a metaphor then where in the scriptures is the interpretation?  That is what is lacking.  When you go beyond what is written, which we are warned not to do, you enter the realm of speculation.  This is when you become suceptible to the "traditions of men".

Let's look at another, more subtle, example.  "And I saw a wild beast+ ascending out of the sea,+ with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems,* but on its heads blasphemous names." (Rev 13:1)  This is the beast that many call "The Antichrist".  This is the one that is referenced when speaking of the "mark of the beast".  There is a lot of speculation about it's identity among believers. 

So is this a literal beast or is it a metaphor?  Surely it sounds like metaphor to you but that is not enough to draw a solid conclusion.  Before drawing a conclusion it is worth asking if the scriptures ever use a beast(s) metaphorically.  If it does not, then that is one less reason to take it as metaphor.  Perhaps you already know.  Does the Bible ever use a beast(s) metaphorically?  If so, for what?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

composer

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 07:47:40 PM
Cool.  Can you explain what these tools are and can you explain how you use these tools accurately?

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 12:26:05 AM
Revelation identifies the serpent.

NOPE!

It identifies ' a ' serpent - dragon that deceiveth the whole world!

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Rev. 12:9) KJV Story book

So is your serpent also a dragon?

&

cf.

I Timothy 2:14:
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (KJV Story book

Hence the old serpent of Rev. 12:9 that deceiveth the whole world can NOT be a reference to the Genesis Serpent, because it failed to deceive ' the whole world ' when it consisted of just Adam & Eve.

&

jst & Co. have already been corrected on this by moi long ago -

http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,61693.msg801690.html#msg801690

However, since they employ their ' Ignore ' button to Truth & Reality, they blunder on blindly pretending it doesn't exist, as here again!

||think||



||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Andy S.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 04:21:57 PM

Another integral part is Jehovah himself.  Only the spirit of God discerns the things of God (1 Cor 2:14).  The scriptures teach that if we ask for that spirit we will receive it (Luke 11:13).  So if you really want to understand, along with dilligent searching (Pr 2:3-5), you are going to have to break down and ask for that spirit.


I'm not buying it Jst.  Funny thing....when I was a Christian, I was involved in the Calvary Chapel organization.  All Calvary Chapel pastors nationwide interpreted the 144,000 in Rev. 7 & 14 to be "natural Jews".  This was one of the many important passages to the organization and is why the organization supported Israel so much.  Calvary Chapel has their own radio station and I hear all the time on this station that these 144,000 "natural Jews" are going to be like a bunch of "Billy Graham's" in the end times.

So the funny thing is that Calvary Chapel adherents think the 144,000 are "natural Jews" and JW's think the 144,000 are "spiritual Jews".  Soooo.....I think the integral part is NOT "Jehovah himself" or asking for the "spirit".  The integral part to interpreting this is indoctrination!     
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman!"
- Homer Simpson

Quote from: kevin on February 23, 2015, 08:19:43 AM

you're still a christian, andy, just a non-believing one.

composer

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
. . . . The scriptures teach that if we ask for that spirit we will receive it (Luke 11:13). 
||think||

jst admits he does NOT have this supposed spirit!

http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,54065.msg662771.html#msg662771

How many times have you asked and been knocked back = met with more silence, jst?  ||razz||

||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 24, 2016, 05:24:46 AM
Sorry I am not sure I follow. I understand you think the Genesis account is metaphorical and the 2 passages in Revelation  (that are filled with the nonsensical) are meant to be understood literally but I want to know how you have determined this to be the case.

Even in Revelation it is still metaphor because Satan is not actually an animal but a spirit.

Firstly, sorry for my late reply.  I have been in Singapore and Malaysia for a couple of weeks.
 
Genesis 3 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." 
You say is a metaphor.  What is your justification for this?

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSYou have linked the serpent spoken about in Revelation with the serpent spoken about in Genesis.  I know this is no theological Everest but I want to understand the mechanics behind the action.  Why have you done that when it does not specifically reference Genesis?  I am hoping we can use this foundation to move to a few other examples so I can get it.

You need to understand that even though there were different writers that Jehovah is the author.  The Bible contains a progressive revelation so you cannot take Genesis as a stand alone.  It is part of a larger whole.  The writers themselves were not privy to the entire revelation.  They only knew what was revealed at the time.  They did not have the whole picture.

It could be compared to the instructions given about speaking in tongues.  There was to be a speaker and an interpreter.  The speakers didn't even know what they were saying.  The interpretation was revealed sperately by another person.  1.Likewise, what the Bible reveals to one writer may be interpreted by another writer.  2.So while the writer of Genesis may not have even known about the existence of Satan, he was revealed in later writings.  3.The Bible could be likened to a puzzle where various writers held seperate pieces.

1. I agree with you here and it has far more devastating implications to your hypothesis that Jehovah is the author.
2. Revealed or interpreted by a successive writer?  How could you tell the difference?
3. Am I to conclude that Jehovah is the author of confusion? If the real identity of the snake in the OT was deliberately obscured or made into a metaphor or a puzzle (you can choose your poison) then the author that you are attributing to Jehovah is intentionally creating confusion.


Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSHow have you determined the reference to the serpent in Revelation is not the metaphor?

It is metaphor. 
How exactly have you determined that?
I am understanding your repeating what Christendom has accepted as true but what I am looking for is the method, that is the major part that seems to be lacking in your responses.

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSIs that the literal answer or is that just a metaphor for something else?
If the serpent in Genesis is a metaphor, then could the whole of Genesis be a metaphorical too?

Well yes, it is something to consider since it does contain metaphor.  The account does contain other metaphors, but creation itself is never used as a metaphor in the scriptures even though it is referenced many times.  So the same justification is not present like it is for the identification of the serpent.
You are making absolute statements without any justification of how you can accurately and repeatedly identify the metaphors.  Do you have an actual method or are you simply repeating the watchtower teaching without an understanding of how it is done? 

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSLet me examine this one for example:
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Exodus 24
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

These two passages appear to be contradictory.  Was Jesus wrong?  Is the passage in Exodus wrong?  Or was the God seen by Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel not the Father but another God, Jesus perhaps?

Or is there a metaphor in there somewhere and if so, how can we identify it?

Yes, that is how you do it, (to be continued)
What is?  Look for conflicting report and try and rationalise it?


Quote from: Jst(continued) although there are other scriptures to be gathered on that subject before attempting to form conclusions.  I am not ready to tackle this one with you because it is a more difficult subject.  If I cannot move you past the most simplest of examples, there is no need to tackle a significatly more difficult one.
If this example will not help demonstrate the method then I am happy to shelve it for now.

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSI do agree with you but I am not sure how else to determine what could be a metaphor as, like you said, it is hard to find where in the bible it explains these things.

There is no replacement for familarity.  The more familiar you are with the scriptures the more fruitful searching them will become.
That is disappointing Jst. Being familiar but not having a logical foundation how to understand the data only leads to errors and multiple interpretations.  This will lead to schisms and a house divided which is what Christianity has become. Just look at the history of the JWs.  Born from multiple schisms less than 250 years ago, about the same time and place as the Seventh Day Adventists. 

Why so much confusion? Could it be because each group is earnestly trying to reconcile the irreconcilable with no basis in logic or reason?

[snip]

Quote from: Jst
Quote from: TSUnless it never happened and the story is a metaphor which I am trying to exclude because it would make it simpler but that may be a mistake. So we come back to the question, how can we accurately identify a metaphor in the bible?

1.If the whole story is a metaphor then where in the scriptures is the interpretation?  2.That is what is lacking.  3.When you go beyond what is written, which we are warned not to do, you enter the realm of speculation.  This is when you become suceptible to the "traditions of men".
My numbering
1. You posted a list of metaphors a few posts ago, while a lot of them are not common here, I can find the sources and definitions for many of them.  "Metaphors are meant to create an impact in the minds of readers. The aim of this literary tool is to convey a thought more forcefully than a plain statement would.

They are exaggerated expressions no doubt, but they are exaggerated because they are supposed to paint a vivid picture, or become a profound statement or saying.
"

Metaphors are not meant to be clear, they are exaggerated expressions.  That opens to door to much confusion and is one of the reasons I suspect you are having such a hard time being able to provide a reliable method to determine what is and isn't a metaphor in the bible. 

2. Yes it is lacking, creating much confusion.  As you advised previously, Jehovah is the author of this puzzle making him the author of confusion.

3. Isn't that exactly what you have to do?  You have conflicting reports and you have to reconcile them or they remain contradictory and invalid.  But the bible does not provide a clear method to determine what is meant to be a metaphor and what is literally true. 

Now I could be wrong about this but it does not seem the watchtower teach a method, they teach a dogma, a tradition of man.   


Quote from: JstLet's look at another, more subtle, example.  "And I saw a wild beast+ ascending out of the sea,+ with ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns ten diadems,* but on its heads blasphemous names." (Rev 13:1)  This is the beast that many call "The Antichrist".  This is the one that is referenced when speaking of the "mark of the beast".  There is a lot of speculation about it's identity among believers. 

So is this a literal beast or is it a metaphor?  Surely it sounds like metaphor to you but that is not enough to draw a solid conclusion.  Before drawing a conclusion it is worth asking if the scriptures ever use a beast(s) metaphorically.  If it does not, then that is one less reason to take it as metaphor.  Perhaps you already know.  Does the Bible ever use a beast(s) metaphorically?  If so, for what?

Is that a concrete method of determining what is a metaphor?  If one subject is used in a metaphor, every other time that subject is used it must also be a metaphor?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Teaspoon Shallow

@Jstwebbrowsing am I to conclude you have no reliable method of determining what is metaphorical and what is literally true in the bible?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
@Jstwebbrowsing am I to conclude you have no reliable method of determining what is metaphorical and what is literally true in the bible?

No, you should conclude I've not been checking the forum.  A whole month has passed between my last reply and yours.  I am also tired of going in circles.

QuoteGenesis 3 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." 
You say is a metaphor.  What is your justification for this?

The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
Genesis 3 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." 
You say is a metaphor.  What is your justification for this?

The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Are these the two quotes that prove Satan is the same serpent in Genesis?
I want to establish the method you are using to ascertain what is not directly stated as unquestionable truth.
If there are assumption you have made, you must keep in mind that it is possible these assumptions are a mistake and the foundational knowledge you are building on is false. 

Are you willing to explore that with me?


"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

80sChild

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on May 31, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
Genesis 3 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." 
You say is a metaphor.  What is your justification for this?

The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Are these the two quotes that prove Satan is the same serpent in Genesis?
I want to establish the method you are using to ascertain what is not directly stated as unquestionable truth.
If there are assumption you have made, you must keep in mind that it is possible these assumptions are a mistake and the foundational knowledge you are building on is false. 

Are you willing to explore that with me?




They see what they want to see. Anyway I will look at this with you if you want... Omg Spoon I don't understand why you are just not getting this! I mean omg it's not me it's the bible sYing it, why can't you just f**king see that?? Hahaha!! I love it!

Teaspoon Shallow

 ||rofl||

Nice.

A few books refer to that old serpent and it must mean the serpent in Genesis because of why?

ANSWER 1.  A serpent was in both Genesis and Revelation.  The serpent fooled Eve and the other fooled the whole world. 

Still no solid connection.  This is supposed to be bedrock but so far Jst doesn't seem to be able to defend it.

I was hoping he would have a reliable method we could then use for other things but it does not look like he has.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

80sChild

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 04, 2016, 12:12:23 PM
||rofl||

Nice.

A few books refer to that old serpent and it must mean the serpent in Genesis because of why?

ANSWER 1.  A serpent was in both Genesis and Revelation.  The serpent fooled Eve and the other fooled the whole world. 

Still no solid connection.  This is supposed to be bedrock but so far Jst doesn't seem to be able to defend it.

I was hoping he would have a reliable method we could then use for other things but it does not look like he has.

Well this is something I know a lil about, God called Lucifer his "bright and morning star" and also beautiful.
And  being called serpent meant to shine or shining one, the Hebrew translation below...

    The Hebrew word rendered "serpent" in Genesis 3:1 is Nachash (from the root Nachash, to shine), and means a shinning one, in Chaldee it means brass or copper, because of its shining,  also, the word Nehushtan, a piece of brass, in 2Kings 18:4.

So yes they are the same, but serpent didn't mean snake, the shining one, so this angel that God made so beautiful and shinny caught the attention of Eve, and was able to fool her just like he would the whole world, with his shinny things and beautiful sinful ways of life .

How's that?

Kiahanie

Pretty good, Child. +1 for insightful exegesis. When the timer dings.
"If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet ... maybe we could understand something." --Federico Fellini....."Silence is the language of God, all else is poor translation" -Jellaludin Rumi,

80sChild

Quote from: Kiahanie on June 04, 2016, 05:54:16 PM
Pretty good, Child. +1 for insightful exegesis. When the timer dings.


Gracias! Gracias!
:)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on May 31, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
Genesis 3 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made." 
You say is a metaphor.  What is your justification for this?

The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Are these the two quotes that prove Satan is the same serpent in Genesis?
I want to establish the method you are using to ascertain what is not directly stated as unquestionable truth.
If there are assumption you have made, you must keep in mind that it is possible these assumptions are a mistake and the foundational knowledge you are building on is false. 

Are you willing to explore that with me?

@Jstwebbrowsing    No further comment Jst?

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

What is the point of discussion if you don't even believe in God in the first place?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 11, 2016, 07:54:53 PM
What is the point of discussion if you don't even believe in God in the first place?
Entertainment or curiosity, get over it and answer
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 11, 2016, 07:54:53 PM
What is the point of discussion if you don't even believe in God in the first place?

Wow Jst.  Think about what you have wrote.

At what age were you presented with the concept of a god and how long after was it you were convinced it was true?

Jst, if what you say is true, I want to believe too.  What concerns me is it appears you are unable to provide the most basic tools for determining what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be metaphorical.

Would you agree that many have interpreted scripture incorrectly and come to wildly different ideas that would most probably displease god?
How can I be certain I would not make the same mistakes if I cannot differentiate literal from metaphorical?

If you think you know the truth and want others to learn it too, don't you think you should be able to show the how the foundation of your understand works?   Your interpretation of scripture is a critical step and it appears to me you go by gut feel and not a logical process.

That looks to me as a sure way of introducing errors into your belief.  That is how you first sought out the JWs wasn't it?  You could not make sense of the trinity and the JWs taught there was none and it felt right in your gut?   What have you done since then? Adopted their interpretation of scripture and shared it with other people, but the logical process is either missing or you are unable to show how it works on the most basic or scriptures.

Why is that?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

none

What's the matter, isn't a pissy attitude enough?
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 11, 2016, 09:51:46 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 11, 2016, 07:54:53 PM
What is the point of discussion if you don't even believe in God in the first place?

Wow Jst.  Think about what you have wrote.

At what age were you presented with the concept of a god and how long after was it you were convinced it was true?

Jst, if what you say is true, I want to believe too.  What concerns me is it appears you are unable to provide the most basic tools for determining what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be metaphorical.

Would you agree that many have interpreted scripture incorrectly and come to wildly different ideas that would most probably displease god?
How can I be certain I would not make the same mistakes if I cannot differentiate literal from metaphorical?

If you think you know the truth and want others to learn it too, don't you think you should be able to show the how the foundation of your understand works?   Your interpretation of scripture is a critical step and it appears to me you go by gut feel and not a logical process.

That looks to me as a sure way of introducing errors into your belief.  That is how you first sought out the JWs wasn't it?  You could not make sense of the trinity and the JWs taught there was none and it felt right in your gut?   What have you done since then? Adopted their interpretation of scripture and shared it with other people, but the logical process is either missing or you are unable to show how it works on the most basic or scriptures.

Why is that?

If you want to believe then you are going backwards.  If you want to believe then you need to start with Hebrews 11:6.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

You do know belief is not a choice right?  Either you are convinced that a proposition is true or you are not.

I search and ask questions.  Questions you are reluctant or are unable to answer. 
Questions that I would have expected you to have had and found an answer to move you from the "I don't know" to the "I know" position.

Notice how you do not answer my questions Jst?  Why is that?

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

These questions will not get you anywhere if you bypass Hebrews 11:6.  Me proving this doctrine will not convince. you that Hebrews 11:6 is true.  If you want to seek the God of the Bible then you must follow the Bible.  Inside is laid out the number one priority at Mathew 6:33.  That is where you must begin.  Please see Proverbs 8:17.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

There it is  , you gotta worship the bible
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 12:42:33 AM
These questions will not get you anywhere if you bypass Hebrews 11:6.  Me proving this doctrine will not convince. you that Hebrews 11:6 is true.  If you want to seek the God of the Bible then you must follow the Bible.  Inside is laid out the number one priority at Mathew 6:33.  That is where you must begin.  Please see Proverbs 8:17.

That may not be literal Jst, it could be a metaphor since according to you, the bible is filled with them.  So I need to understand how to differentiate the two and have asked for your assistance.

In lieu of assistance I am getting the run around.  Why are you unwilling to have a civil discussion and answer some of my questions? 
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 12, 2016, 01:14:08 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 12:42:33 AM
These questions will not get you anywhere if you bypass Hebrews 11:6.  Me proving this doctrine will not convince. you that Hebrews 11:6 is true.  If you want to seek the God of the Bible then you must follow the Bible.  Inside is laid out the number one priority at Mathew 6:33.  That is where you must begin.  Please see Proverbs 8:17.

That may not be literal Jst, it could be a metaphor since according to you, the bible is filled with them.  So I need to understand how to differentiate the two and have asked for your assistance.

In lieu of assistance I am getting the run around.  Why are you unwilling to have a civil discussion and answer some of my questions?

Now you are just patronizing me as if you have no understanding of metaphors at all.  Do you have these.problems with every use of metaphor or just the Bible?  Are you EVER able to identify a metaphor and it's meaning?  If so, how?  You can answer your own question.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

none

#43
Pfft, just answer him we don't want your excuses
You aren't too good to answer despite your obvious pride you are displaying
You don't know you don't know just admit it
Choke down that pride for once
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 05:50:19 AM
Now you are just patronizing me as if you have no understanding of metaphors at all.
Do you have these.problems with every use of metaphor or just the Bible?  Are you EVER able to identify a metaphor and it's meaning?  If so, how?  You can answer your own question.
No Jst, I suspect you are just projecting as an excuse to run from another conversation you cannot defend.  And I am surprised as I thought I could learn something from you but your reluctance is making that impossible.

If I want look up the definition of "Dry as a dead dingo's donger" I can.
Australian Slang: Meaning that you're really thirsty, usually words heard around a pub when no drinks are being served because service is slow and the locals are getting impatient.
-Oi Shazza! Could you hurry it up a tad I'm dry as a dead dingo's donger over 'ere
-Chuck us a coldie, all this hard yakka is making me as dry as a dead dingos donger!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dry%20as%20a%20dead%20dingos%20donger

But when it comes to the bible, there is no definitive way for me to determine what is and is not metaphorical.  You claim you have the tools but are unwilling to share them.  Why do you suppose that is the case?

We were discussing how you determined the snake in Genesis is the devil.  The 2 passages in Revelations do not explicitly state that is the case but you do not agree.  Yet you are unable to provide a reasonable explanation. 

Why are you so reluctant to answer basic questions? 

Are the answers exposing the folly of your adopted dogma? That would provide a reasonable explanation to your odd behaviour.






"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Dexter

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 05:50:19 AM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 12, 2016, 01:14:08 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 12:42:33 AM
These questions will not get you anywhere if you bypass Hebrews 11:6.  Me proving this doctrine will not convince. you that Hebrews 11:6 is true.  If you want to seek the God of the Bible then you must follow the Bible.  Inside is laid out the number one priority at Mathew 6:33.  That is where you must begin.  Please see Proverbs 8:17.

That may not be literal Jst, it could be a metaphor since according to you, the bible is filled with them.  So I need to understand how to differentiate the two and have asked for your assistance.

In lieu of assistance I am getting the run around.  Why are you unwilling to have a civil discussion and answer some of my questions?

Now you are just patronizing me as if you have no understanding of metaphors at all.  Do you have these.problems with every use of metaphor or just the Bible?  Are you EVER able to identify a metaphor and it's meaning?  If so, how?  You can answer your own question.

The most misunderstood is the metaphor of Jesus.
"Here is no water but only rock
Rock and no water and the sandy road"
― T.S. Eliot, The Waste Land

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 12, 2016, 10:12:25 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 12, 2016, 05:50:19 AM
Now you are just patronizing me as if you have no understanding of metaphors at all.
Do you have these.problems with every use of metaphor or just the Bible?  Are you EVER able to identify a metaphor and it's meaning?  If so, how?  You can answer your own question.
No Jst, I suspect you are just projecting as an excuse to run from another conversation you cannot defend.  And I am surprised as I thought I could learn something from you but your reluctance is making that impossible.

If I want look up the definition of "Dry as a dead dingo's donger" I can.
Australian Slang: Meaning that you're really thirsty, usually words heard around a pub when no drinks are being served because service is slow and the locals are getting impatient.
-Oi Shazza! Could you hurry it up a tad I'm dry as a dead dingo's donger over 'ere
-Chuck us a coldie, all this hard yakka is making me as dry as a dead dingos donger!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dry%20as%20a%20dead%20dingos%20donger

But when it comes to the bible, there is no definitive way for me to determine what is and is not metaphorical.  You claim you have the tools but are unwilling to share them.  Why do you suppose that is the case?

We were discussing how you determined the snake in Genesis is the devil.  The 2 passages in Revelations do not explicitly state that is the case but you do not agree.  Yet you are unable to provide a reasonable explanation. 

Why are you so reluctant to answer basic questions? 

Are the answers exposing the folly of your adopted dogma? That would provide a reasonable explanation to your odd behaviour.

You can look them up?  That's exactly what I've said to do a few times now.  If you want to know the meaning of a metaphor in the Bible then you "look it up" in the Bible.

You've been answered more than once.   Next time instead of asking the same question or claiming that I did not answer, refer back to this post.

I will add to that before anything else, ask God for his spirit to guide you or you may be just chasing wind.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 13, 2016, 01:37:18 AM
You can look them up?  That's exactly what I've said to do a few times now.  If you want to know the meaning of a metaphor in the Bible then you "look it up" in the Bible.
My 4 bibles have no index of metaphors. Does yours? (I am now expecting you will not bother to answer this question nor shed any light on the subject).
You have repeatedly claimed the serpent mentioned twice in Revelation is the same serpent in the Genesis story.
I agree the word serpent appears in both. 
What I want you to explain to me is:
1. How you can be sure it is the same serpent
2. How you identified the "serpent" is a metaphor.
This is important because if the method you are using is reliable, it should be a transferable skill that can be used elsewhere in the bible, correct?  But if I follow your instructions to the letter and it produces the wrong result, I will want to know why. (Did I stuff up or is your method faulty).

Is this too much to ask?  I am assuming you have had no formal training in training and assessment and that is OK.  What would be most helpful and appreciated if you actually read and understood my questions and then provided your thoughtful response.   Please, ask me questions and I will do my best to reciprocate.



Quote from: JstYou've been answered more than once. 
Let us examine this claim:
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 12:32:46 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 22, 2016, 01:27:50 PM
Genesis 3 is a good example.  If a person were to read the Bible from beginning to end they may come to suspect the serpent was Satan while progressing, but the truth of it would not be confirmed until Revelation.
Again, that may be your understanding but was that the intention of the author of Genesis?
How could you be confident in your interpretation?

The lack of a falsifiable methodology but continuing to draw conclusions regardless is abandoning reason.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 07:47:40 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 23, 2016, 04:32:26 PM
That is not an interpretation.  Those are the words of the inspired writer of Revelation.  It is not required that the writer of Genesis understood the indentification of the serpent.  Through later inspired writings, Jehovah identified the serpent for us.
When you say Jehovah identified the serpent for us, how can you be sure you have understood this message accurately?
Gen 3 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made."  Is the serpent a wild animal that the Lord created or is the serpent not a wild animal that the Lord created?
How did you determine the answer to this?

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 24, 2016, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 12:26:05 AM
I am very certain.  The scriptures only place one serpent in the pool of possibilities.  The serpent also speaks with a spirit of rebellion, or resistence to God.  By definition, that is the spirit of Satan.  So the spirit behind the serpent was Satan.
Unless it never happened and the story is a metaphor which I am trying to exclude because it would make it simpler but that may be a mistake. So we come back to the question, how can we accurately identify a metaphor in the bible?

Thanks for your patience.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
It is metaphor. 
How exactly have you determined that?
I am understanding your repeating what Christendom has accepted as true but what I am looking for is the method, that is the major part that seems to be lacking in your responses.


Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on May 31, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Are these the two quotes that prove Satan is the same serpent in Genesis?
I want to establish the method you are using to ascertain what is not directly stated as unquestionable truth.
If there are assumption you have made, you must keep in mind that it is possible these assumptions are a mistake and the foundational knowledge you are building on is false. 

Are you willing to explore that with me?

Quote from: JstI will add to that before anything else, ask God for his spirit to guide you or you may be just chasing wind.
I have done that now Jst.  So far god has remained silent, does he actually talk to you? What should be expected?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

meAgain

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 11, 2016, 09:51:46 PM
you are unable to provide the most basic tools for determining what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be metaphorical.


I've answered this question many times on this forum.  We know how to interpret the Bible from she who God left in charge of it -- His Church.  I think you make a good point Teaspoon -- there are many sincere individuals who have read the Bible and have come to a different conclusion then someone else with regards to a specific passage.  How can it be determined who is right?  It only makes sense that God would have left One authoritative Church to resolve any disputes. 

Now you can go on to ask how do we know who is the one, authoritative Church, and that is a good question, but a different question.  First, we should be able to rule out anyone who doesn't want the title and that is almost every other religion.  Most religions do not claim to be authoritative.  I don't know about you, but that wouldn't do me much good.  The Catholic Church has the audacity to proclaim she is the One True Faith.   






Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 13, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 13, 2016, 01:37:18 AM
You can look them up?  That's exactly what I've said to do a few times now.  If you want to know the meaning of a metaphor in the Bible then you "look it up" in the Bible.
My 4 bibles have no index of metaphors. Does yours? (I am now expecting you will not bother to answer this question nor shed any light on the subject).
You have repeatedly claimed the serpent mentioned twice in Revelation is the same serpent in the Genesis story.
I agree the word serpent appears in both. 
What I want you to explain to me is:
1. How you can be sure it is the same serpent
2. How you identified the "serpent" is a metaphor.
This is important because if the method you are using is reliable, it should be a transferable skill that can be used elsewhere in the bible, correct?  But if I follow your instructions to the letter and it produces the wrong result, I will want to know why. (Did I stuff up or is your method faulty).

Is this too much to ask?  I am assuming you have had no formal training in training and assessment and that is OK.  What would be most helpful and appreciated if you actually read and understood my questions and then provided your thoughtful response.   Please, ask me questions and I will do my best to reciprocate.



Quote from: JstYou've been answered more than once. 
Let us examine this claim:
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 12:32:46 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 22, 2016, 01:27:50 PM
Genesis 3 is a good example.  If a person were to read the Bible from beginning to end they may come to suspect the serpent was Satan while progressing, but the truth of it would not be confirmed until Revelation.
Again, that may be your understanding but was that the intention of the author of Genesis?
How could you be confident in your interpretation?

The lack of a falsifiable methodology but continuing to draw conclusions regardless is abandoning reason.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 23, 2016, 07:47:40 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 23, 2016, 04:32:26 PM
That is not an interpretation.  Those are the words of the inspired writer of Revelation.  It is not required that the writer of Genesis understood the indentification of the serpent.  Through later inspired writings, Jehovah identified the serpent for us.
When you say Jehovah identified the serpent for us, how can you be sure you have understood this message accurately?
Gen 3 "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made."  Is the serpent a wild animal that the Lord created or is the serpent not a wild animal that the Lord created?
How did you determine the answer to this?

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on March 24, 2016, 05:24:46 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 12:26:05 AM
I am very certain.  The scriptures only place one serpent in the pool of possibilities.  The serpent also speaks with a spirit of rebellion, or resistence to God.  By definition, that is the spirit of Satan.  So the spirit behind the serpent was Satan.
Unless it never happened and the story is a metaphor which I am trying to exclude because it would make it simpler but that may be a mistake. So we come back to the question, how can we accurately identify a metaphor in the bible?

Thanks for your patience.

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on April 25, 2016, 08:24:18 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on March 24, 2016, 04:21:57 PM
It is metaphor. 
How exactly have you determined that?
I am understanding your repeating what Christendom has accepted as true but what I am looking for is the method, that is the major part that seems to be lacking in your responses.


Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on May 31, 2016, 03:52:34 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on May 09, 2016, 09:00:05 PM
The Bible's own words in Revelation.  What part of that is hard to understand?  I just don't get why you are not catching it.  It is not what I say, it is what the Bible says.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Are these the two quotes that prove Satan is the same serpent in Genesis?
I want to establish the method you are using to ascertain what is not directly stated as unquestionable truth.
If there are assumption you have made, you must keep in mind that it is possible these assumptions are a mistake and the foundational knowledge you are building on is false. 

Are you willing to explore that with me?

Quote from: JstI will add to that before anything else, ask God for his spirit to guide you or you may be just chasing wind.
I have done that now Jst.  So far god has remained silent, does he actually talk to you? What should be expected?

Question:  How can a serpent speak?
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 12:41:39 AM
Question:  How can a serpent speak?

Is this your method of answering my questions Jst?
I am left a little underwhelmed with your effort.

Why assume an actual snake actually spoke?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 18, 2016, 01:49:14 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 12:41:39 AM
Question:  How can a serpent speak?

Is this your method of answering my questions Jst?
I am left a little underwhelmed with your effort.

Why assume an actual snake actually spoke?

You said you would answer questions. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

80sChild

Quote from: meAgain on June 13, 2016, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 11, 2016, 09:51:46 PM
you are unable to provide the most basic tools for determining what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be metaphorical.


I've answered this question many times on this forum.  We know how to interpret the Bible from she who God left in charge of it -- His Church.  I think you make a good point Teaspoon -- there are many sincere individuals who have read the Bible and have come to a different conclusion then someone else with regards to a specific passage.  How can it be determined who is right?  It only makes sense that God would have left One authoritative Church to resolve any disputes. 

Now you can go on to ask how do we know who is the one, authoritative Church, and that is a good question, but a different question.  First, we should be able to rule out anyone who doesn't want the title and that is almost every other religion.  Most religions do not claim to be authoritative.  I don't know about you, but that wouldn't do me much good.  The Catholic Church has the audacity to proclaim she is the One True Faith.   

WOW... You are full of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 02:04:39 AM
You said you would answer questions. 

Let us examine what I actually said and not what you think I said:

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 13, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
My 4 bibles have no index of metaphors. Does yours? (I am now expecting you will not bother to answer this question nor shed any light on the subject).
You have repeatedly claimed the serpent mentioned twice in Revelation is the same serpent in the Genesis story.
I agree the word serpent appears in both. 
What I want you to explain to me is:
1. How you can be sure it is the same serpent
2. How you identified the "serpent" is a metaphor.
This is important because if the method you are using is reliable, it should be a transferable skill that can be used elsewhere in the bible, correct?  But if I follow your instructions to the letter and it produces the wrong result, I will want to know why. (Did I stuff up or is your method faulty).

Is this too much to ask?  I am assuming you have had no formal training in training and assessment and that is OK.  What would be most helpful and appreciated if you actually read and understood my questions and then provided your thoughtful response.   Please, ask me questions and I will do my best to reciprocate.

Do you understand what I mean by reciprocate?
Do you see an answer to my questions in your response or are you intentionally dodging them?  (Is there even another option?)

Back to your question:

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 12:41:39 AM
Question:  How can a serpent speak?

What you are asking is basically "how can something seemingly impossible happen?"

I asked why assume an actual snake actually spoke?
The reason I ask is because loaded questions are usually left to those who like word games and linguistic traps, like "When did you stop beating your wife?".

Are you suggesting these events are meant to be literal accounts and not metaphorical?

What is more reasonable:
1. This story of a god, angels, talking snake and a 6 day creation is literally true.
2. This story of a god, angels, talking snake and a 6 day creation is not literally true.

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: meAgain on June 13, 2016, 03:31:21 PM
Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 11, 2016, 09:51:46 PM
you are unable to provide the most basic tools for determining what is meant to be literal and what is meant to be metaphorical.


I've answered this question many times on this forum.  We know how to interpret the Bible from she who God left in charge of it -- His Church.  I think you make a good point Teaspoon -- there are many sincere individuals who have read the Bible and have come to a different conclusion then someone else with regards to a specific passage.  How can it be determined who is right?
A testable and falsifiable method would be acceptable

Quote from: MeAgainIt only makes sense that God would have left One authoritative Church to resolve any disputes.
No method, just blind obedience to an authority.  The same faulty reasoning Jst employs with the Watch Tower.   

Quote from: MeAgainNow you can go on to ask how do we know who is the one, authoritative Church, and that is a good question, but a different question.  First, we should be able to rule out anyone who doesn't want the title and that is almost every other religion.  Most religions do not claim to be authoritative.  I don't know about you, but that wouldn't do me much good.  The Catholic Church has the audacity to proclaim she is the One True Faith.   

The Jehovah's Witnesses have the audacity to named themselves as if Isaiah 43:10 referred to them (Post hoc rationalisation rears its ugly head).
The claims of the audacious are not a valid reason to believe their claims are truthful.   
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 18, 2016, 08:24:13 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 02:04:39 AM
You said you would answer questions. 

Let us examine what I actually said and not what you think I said:

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 13, 2016, 11:28:20 AM
My 4 bibles have no index of metaphors. Does yours? (I am now expecting you will not bother to answer this question nor shed any light on the subject).
You have repeatedly claimed the serpent mentioned twice in Revelation is the same serpent in the Genesis story.
I agree the word serpent appears in both. 
What I want you to explain to me is:
1. How you can be sure it is the same serpent
2. How you identified the "serpent" is a metaphor.
This is important because if the method you are using is reliable, it should be a transferable skill that can be used elsewhere in the bible, correct?  But if I follow your instructions to the letter and it produces the wrong result, I will want to know why. (Did I stuff up or is your method faulty).

Is this too much to ask?  I am assuming you have had no formal training in training and assessment and that is OK.  What would be most helpful and appreciated if you actually read and understood my questions and then provided your thoughtful response.   Please, ask me questions and I will do my best to reciprocate.

Do you understand what I mean by reciprocate?
Do you see an answer to my questions in your response or are you intentionally dodging them?  (Is there even another option?)

Back to your question:

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 12:41:39 AM
Question:  How can a serpent speak?

What you are asking is basically "how can something seemingly impossible happen?"

I asked why assume an actual snake actually spoke?
The reason I ask is because loaded questions are usually left to those who like word games and linguistic traps, like "When did you stop beating your wife?".

Are you suggesting these events are meant to be literal accounts and not metaphorical?

What is more reasonable:
1. This story of a god, angels, talking snake and a 6 day creation is literally true.
2. This story of a god, angels, talking snake and a 6 day creation is not literally true.

Asking you a question about what's recorded in the Bible is not a loaded question just like asking you about beating your wife is not a loaded question if I just read that you beat your wife.  I've also not suggested anything nor assumed anything.   I asked how it is possible for a serpent to speak.  "It's impossible" or "it could be metaphor" are both valid answers.

Instead of trying to rely or question my understanding of the matter, you should ask God to help you reason it out yourself.

How could that serpent have spoken?

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 08:18:25 PM
Asking you a question about what's recorded in the Bible is not a loaded question just like asking you about beating your wife is not a loaded question if I just read that you beat your wife.  I've also not suggested anything nor assumed anything.   I asked how it is possible for a serpent to speak.  "It's impossible" or "it could be metaphor" are both valid answers.

I have no valid reason to believe a snake talked, even if 1,000 eyewitnesses testified it would still not be convincing.  Why?  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and testimony does not come close.  In this case, not a single eyewitness is presented, just  a story about a god, a talking snake, in a place that cannot be found and time that is not specified.  It fits the definition of a myth and I have no reason to believe this myth is true.

So could it be a metaphor and if it is, how do you Jst, separate the metaphorical from the literal?  What is the specific mechanism you use or are taught by the Watch Tower?  Are you like MeAgain and rely on a authority, this case the Watch Tower as the good and discreet slave to do the interpreting for you?

Quote from: JstInstead of trying to rely or question my understanding of the matter, you should ask God to help you reason it out yourself.
I have earnestly tried Jst. So far god has remained silent, does he actually talk to you? What should be expected?

You have ignore these two questions previously Jst.  Are you going to ignore them again now?

Quote from: JstHow could that serpent have spoken?

I do not know of a mechanism that would allow a snake to talk.  There could be one but it would need to be demonstrated and not just asserted.
How could a rational person come to the conclusion a snake actually talked?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 18, 2016, 09:19:31 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 08:18:25 PM
Asking you a question about what's recorded in the Bible is not a loaded question just like asking you about beating your wife is not a loaded question if I just read that you beat your wife.  I've also not suggested anything nor assumed anything.   I asked how it is possible for a serpent to speak.  "It's impossible" or "it could be metaphor" are both valid answers.

I have no valid reason to believe a snake talked, even if 1,000 eyewitnesses testified it would still not be convincing.  Why?  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and testimony does not come close.  In this case, not a single eyewitness is presented, just  a story about a god, a talking snake, in a place that cannot be found and time that is not specified.  It fits the definition of a myth and I have no reason to believe this myth is true.

So could it be a metaphor and if it is, how do you Jst, separate the metaphorical from the literal?  What is the specific mechanism you use or are taught by the Watch Tower?  Are you like MeAgain and rely on a authority, this case the Watch Tower as the good and discreet slave to do the interpreting for you?

Quote from: JstInstead of trying to rely or question my understanding of the matter, you should ask God to help you reason it out yourself.
I have earnestly tried Jst. So far god has remained silent, does he actually talk to you? What should be expected?

You have ignore these two questions previously Jst.  Are you going to ignore them again now?

Quote from: JstHow could that serpent have spoken?

I do not know of a mechanism that would allow a snake to talk.  There could be one but it would need to be demonstrated and not just asserted.
How could a rational person come to the conclusion a snake actually talked?

Here is why I said you are working backwards.  If you knew God then you would know of a mechanism that would allow a serpent to talk.  I'm not saying that God made the serpent speak but for you that's not even in the pool of options.  The only option you leave is for me to produce a speaking serpent.

However, your questions are not about me providing a speaking serpent.  They are about what the scriptures teach.  The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak.  That doesn't prove one or the other but does add to the list of possibilities:

1.  It's metaphor.
2.  God made the serpent speak.
3.  An angel made the serpent speak.

But focusing on whether or not there was an actual speaking serpent won't get you to know God.  Whether it is literal, metaphorical, or a combination of both, the "moral of the story" remains the same which is that ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and even death.  This is directly demonstratable in many instances from the reality we see around us.

Faith cannot be built without a foundation which is what you are trying to do by skipping the part about "He that approaches God must believe that he is and he is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him". 

You say that you have earnestly asked God for understanding.  However, the answer needs to be, "I am earnestly praying to God for understanding".  But it does you no good to pray to a false God.  The name of my God is Jehovah.  Call on him by name.  Repent of any wrongdoing and ask for forigiveness on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.  Ask for understanding and meditate on what you read in the Bible.  For example, you could meditate on how following God's instructions would affect your life and the life of your family.  If you do these things he will answer you.

I cannot tell you exactly what to expect.  God knows what it will take to increase your faith.   It's one of those things you will know when you see it.  When you see it, you will probably be tempted to dismiss it as coincidence or some such.  That would be a mistake.  Instead, be thankful to God and keep on asking.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
Here is why I said you are working backwards.  If you knew God then you would know of a mechanism that would allow a serpent to talk.  I'm not saying that God made the serpent speak but for you that's not even in the pool of options.  The only option you leave is for me to produce a speaking serpent.

However, your questions are not about me providing a speaking serpent.  They are about what the scriptures teach.  The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak.  That doesn't prove one or the other but does add to the list of possibilities:

1.  It's metaphor.
2.  God made the serpent speak.
3.  An angel made the serpent speak.

"God dunnit" is not a mechanism. 
Is it possible for something that does not exist to cause something that did not happen to occur?

Quote from: Jst
But focusing on whether or not there was an actual speaking serpent won't get you to know God.  Whether it is literal, metaphorical, or a combination of both, the "moral of the story" remains the same which is that ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and even death.  This is directly demonstratable in many instances from the reality we see around us.

We observe the human species to have a finite lifespan.  According to you, all are ignoring god's instructions, that includes every single JW. 

Alternatively you are mistaken.

Which do you think is true?

Quote from: Jst"Faith cannot be built without a foundation which is what you are trying to do by skipping the part about "He that approaches God must believe that he is and he is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him". 

This is my understanding of the above paragraph:
"To build faith you need to have a foundation of faith".
Circular reasoning is fallacious and is very unconvincing.

Quote from: JstYou say that you have earnestly asked God for understanding.  However, the answer needs to be, "I am earnestly praying to God for understanding".  But it does you no good to pray to a false God.
I can agree to that.  How can you separate the false gods from the real?  Is Jesus for example, a real god or a false god?  Please explain your answer.

Quote from: JstThe name of my God is Jehovah.  Call on him by name. 
Most scholars believe "Jehovah" to be a manufactured name, a hybrid.  Why do you think that is the name of god?

Quote from: JstRepent of any wrongdoing and ask for forigiveness on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.  Ask for understanding and meditate on what you read in the Bible.  For example, you could meditate on how following God's instructions would affect your life and the life of your family.  If you do these things he will answer you.
How will god answer me?  Please provide some specifics and not just vague airy fairy non-answer.

Quote from: JstI cannot tell you exactly what to expect.  God knows what it will take to increase your faith.   It's one of those things you will know when you see it.  When you see it, you will probably be tempted to dismiss it as coincidence or some such.  That would be a mistake.  Instead, be thankful to God and keep on asking.
Does everyone have to employ cognitive dissonance and not rational thought to communicate with your god?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 19, 2016, 03:23:10 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
Here is why I said you are working backwards.  If you knew God then you would know of a mechanism that would allow a serpent to talk.  I'm not saying that God made the serpent speak but for you that's not even in the pool of options.  The only option you leave is for me to produce a speaking serpent.

However, your questions are not about me providing a speaking serpent.  They are about what the scriptures teach.  The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak.  That doesn't prove one or the other but does add to the list of possibilities:

1.  It's metaphor.
2.  God made the serpent speak.
3.  An angel made the serpent speak.

"God dunnit" is not a mechanism. 
Is it possible for something that does not exist to cause something that did not happen to occur?

Quote from: Jst
But focusing on whether or not there was an actual speaking serpent won't get you to know God.  Whether it is literal, metaphorical, or a combination of both, the "moral of the story" remains the same which is that ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and even death.  This is directly demonstratable in many instances from the reality we see around us.

We observe the human species to have a finite lifespan.  According to you, all are ignoring god's instructions, that includes every single JW. 

Alternatively you are mistaken.

Which do you think is true?

Quote from: Jst"Faith cannot be built without a foundation which is what you are trying to do by skipping the part about "He that approaches God must believe that he is and he is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him". 

This is my understanding of the above paragraph:
"To build faith you need to have a foundation of faith".
Circular reasoning is fallacious and is very unconvincing.

Quote from: JstYou say that you have earnestly asked God for understanding.  However, the answer needs to be, "I am earnestly praying to God for understanding".  But it does you no good to pray to a false God.
I can agree to that.  How can you separate the false gods from the real?  Is Jesus for example, a real god or a false god?  Please explain your answer.

Quote from: JstThe name of my God is Jehovah.  Call on him by name. 
Most scholars believe "Jehovah" to be a manufactured name, a hybrid.  Why do you think that is the name of god?

Quote from: JstRepent of any wrongdoing and ask for forigiveness on the basis of Christ's sacrifice.  Ask for understanding and meditate on what you read in the Bible.  For example, you could meditate on how following God's instructions would affect your life and the life of your family.  If you do these things he will answer you.
How will god answer me?  Please provide some specifics and not just vague airy fairy non-answer.

Quote from: JstI cannot tell you exactly what to expect.  God knows what it will take to increase your faith.   It's one of those things you will know when you see it.  When you see it, you will probably be tempted to dismiss it as coincidence or some such.  That would be a mistake.  Instead, be thankful to God and keep on asking.
Does everyone have to employ cognitive dissonance and not rational thought to communicate with your god?

1.  "God dunnit" is a mechanism if you are going by what the Bible teaches and that is what your questions are about.  You are moving the goal post.

2.  I did not say everyone ignores God's instructions.  I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.

3.  Your understading is wrong.  To build faith you must have a foundation for faith, not of faith.

4.  According to God's own testimony from heaven at Christ's baptism, Jesus is his son.

5.  Jehovah is the English translation of God's name.  If you want to use the probable Hebrew pronunciation then go ahead.

6.  I don't know how he will answer you.  If I could predict God's actions I would be a prophet.  I am not.

7.   One must do what God has said.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

80sChild

Catch me up, I got stuck in a gay bathroom on another subject, dont let me do that again!
its a lot to read so Jst what are we talking about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: 80sChild on June 19, 2016, 07:00:50 PM
Catch me up, I got stuck in a gay bathroom on another subject, dont let me do that again!
its a lot to read so Jst what are we talking about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm trying to allow TS to reason out for himself things about the serpent in the Genesis account.  However, since the inevitable claim "God does not exist" has come out TS only leaves one possible answer, that the account is made up gibberish.  This backs up what I said earlier that we are on the wrong subject.  A better subject is how can a person know God.



But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 19, 2016, 06:20:25 PM
1a.  "God dunnit" is a mechanism if you are going by what the Bible teaches and that is what your questions are about.  1b. You are moving the goal post.
1a.  Which of the following (if any) are you using?
Mechanism: mech?a?nism  (m?k??-n?z??m)
a. A machine or mechanical appliance.
b. The arrangement of connected parts in a machine.
2. A system of parts that operate or interact like those of a machine: the mechanism of the solar system.
3. An instrument or a process, physical or mental, by which something is done or comes into being: "The mechanism of oral learning is largely that of continuous repetition" (T.G.E. Powell).
4. A habitual manner of acting to achieve an end.
5. Psychology A usually unconscious mental and emotional pattern that shapes behavior in a given situation or environment: a defense mechanism.
6. The sequence of steps in a chemical reaction.
7. Philosophy The doctrine that all natural phenomena are explicable by material causes and mechanical principles.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mechanism

The specific definition I am using is 3. (bolded)

If god dunnit, by what mechanism did he do it?

1b. The goal posts were for you to clearly articulate the method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.  So far you have dodge doing this fundamental step and ignore it like it is not a huge problem for your position. 
Let me point to the posts for you to review and reply to the mechanism you employ to differentiate all that is literal from all that is metaphorical in the bible:
#6
#9
#11
#13
#15
#22
#23
#27
#31
#34
#40
#44
#47
#50
#53
That is just the ones in the thread.  You have to date refused to directly answer this question.
I am concluding you have no mechanism to differentiate the literal from the metaphorical.  Your claims that you do have been demonstrated to be wanting repeatedly.
Why is that?  Are you holding the truth back or do you not have the truth to share?

Quote from: Jst2.  I did not say everyone ignores God's instructions.  I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  Your understading is wrong.  To build faith you must have a foundation for faith, not of faith.
Please explain "He that approaches God must believe that he is and he is the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him".
How do you approach god if you are not convinced he exists as you Jst, have described him?  Do I need reason or do I need faith?  This is a dichotomy, which is it?

Quote from: Jst4.  According to God's own testimony from heaven at Christ's baptism, Jesus is his son.
Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?
This is an actual trilema, can your dogma reconcile it?
Please do not ignore this as you have most of my questions in this thread.

Quote from: Jst5.  Jehovah is the English translation of God's name.  If you want to use the probable Hebrew pronunciation then go ahead.
Translation?  Most scholars believe that "Jehovah" to be a late (c. 1100 CE) hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

Why do you think this is literally gods name?

Did the JWs literally mess this up or metaphorically mess this up?

Quote from: Jst6.  I don't know how he will answer you.  If I could predict God's actions I would be a prophet.  I am not.

You predicted god will answer me, you just have no clue as to HOW he will. Well that is some truth I can take to the bank.... ||unsure|| 

Just believe you have received and answer and you will have that answer or some other really bad reasoning right?

Jst you are being very unreasonable.  Is your god a god of confusion?

Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
This leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?

Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?

Is that a reasonable position to hold?

"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 20, 2016, 03:08:07 AM
I'm trying to allow TS to reason out for himself things about the serpent in the Genesis account.  However, since the inevitable claim "God does not exist" has come out TS only leaves one possible answer, that the account is made up gibberish.  This backs up what I said earlier that we are on the wrong subject.  A better subject is how can a person know God.

This bolded quote you have contributed to me in this thread, please quote my reply or retract this statement as an error you have made. 
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

80sChild

If I may, in my opinion the Word is  Jesus, John 1:1 meaning Jesus has been with God since the time of creation and the Word was God meaning, Jesus was Gods son.
John 1:14 Jesus (the Word) becomes man, dwells with us, as the son of our now known Father in heaven. 


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Teaspoon Shallow

@Jstwebbrowsing

Are you planning on addressing these posts?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?

1b.  Refer to reply #46.

2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.

3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.

4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?

5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.

6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.

7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.





6. 


But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

80sChild

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 21, 2016, 08:31:51 PM
@Jstwebbrowsing

Are you planning on addressing these posts?

I think NO is your answer from what I can see.....


Sent from my iPhone
80sChild

Kusa

Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

Jstwebbrowsing

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kusa

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

I don't know what you know about any of that.  Please explain how you know heaven doesn't exist.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Kusa

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 10:32:11 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 09:40:39 PM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 23, 2016, 04:38:07 PM
Quote from: Kusa on June 23, 2016, 03:07:46 AM
Nobody goes to heaven as it doesn't exist.

How do you know?

The same way I know that Santa Clause and his little elves don't exist.

I don't know what you know about any of that.  Please explain how you know heaven doesn't exist.

There is zero evidence that it exists.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 21, 2016, 10:23:45 PM
1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?
What we are talking about:
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak. 
The objection remains, god dunnit is not a mechanism as I outlined in Reply #62

You asked "What mechanism did he use for what?"  I have provided you the answer to your question, now it is time for you to reciprocate.

Quote from: Jst1b.  Refer to reply #46.
DODGE.  You claim the bible contains metaphors but you are unable to provide a repeatable methodology of identifying them.  Your continuation to dodge this fundamental step is creating a stumbling block.  Why are you doing that?

Quote from: Jst2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.
"I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death."
Do JWs experience suffering and / or death? So the question remains unanswered:
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.
Playing games?  You are bearing false witness against me Jst.  May I remind you it is you who chose to play games and not share the truth you claim to have.  I once thought it was due to some confusion on your part.   You have now caused me to suspect dissimulation.  What is your game?

Quote from: Jst4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?
DODGE.  This has been a recurring tactic and you continue to fail to answer my questions.

Quote from: Jst5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.
You are not going to present and actual argument with supporting evidence, you are just going to claim it is true and gloss over possible errors you have adopted.    OK.

Quote from: Jst6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.
You cannot predict anyone will answer me but you did about your god.  But you have no clue how he will answer.
How did your god answer your prayers Jst?  Did you hear an actual voice?  Did you have a vision of some sort?  Did events happen that you assumed were the work of divine dabling?

Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
How well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?



"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on June 24, 2016, 11:32:53 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 21, 2016, 10:23:45 PM
1a.  What mechanism did he use for what?
What we are talking about:
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on June 18, 2016, 10:56:17 PM
The scriptures teach there was a speaking serpent.  They teach that God exists and they teach that angels existed at the time.  So this adds mechanisms through which a serpent could speak.  God, or possibly an angel could have made the serpent speak. 
The objection remains, god dunnit is not a mechanism as I outlined in Reply #62

You asked "What mechanism did he use for what?"  I have provided you the answer to your question, now it is time for you to reciprocate.

Quote from: Jst1b.  Refer to reply #46.
DODGE.  You claim the bible contains metaphors but you are unable to provide a repeatable methodology of identifying them.  Your continuation to dodge this fundamental step is creating a stumbling block.  Why are you doing that?

Quote from: Jst2.  I'm not positing anything about JWs.
"I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death."
Do JWs experience suffering and / or death? So the question remains unanswered:
Are you positing that the JWs do not ignore god's instructions but suffer the same fate (suffering and death) due to others ignoring god's instructions?  Is that what you are saying?

Quote from: Jst3.  By asking questions such as "how can I know if God exists" instead of going in circles about talking snakes.  By studying the scriptures without an antitheist mentality.  By trying to learn instead of trying to trip people up and playing word games.
Playing games?  You are bearing false witness against me Jst.  May I remind you it is you who chose to play games and not share the truth you claim to have.  I once thought it was due to some confusion on your part.   You have now caused me to suspect dissimulation.  What is your game?

Quote from: Jst4.   Have you researched anything about John 1:1?  If so, what have you found out?
DODGE.  This has been a recurring tactic and you continue to fail to answer my questions.

Quote from: Jst5.  Not going to argue.  My God's name in english is Jehovah.  This is the name used in many english translations that do not simply remove his name, as is the custom.
You are not going to present and actual argument with supporting evidence, you are just going to claim it is true and gloss over possible errors you have adopted.    OK.

Quote from: Jst6.  There is no confusion.  I can't predict how anyone will answer you.
You cannot predict anyone will answer me but you did about your god.  But you have no clue how he will answer.
How did your god answer your prayers Jst?  Did you hear an actual voice?  Did you have a vision of some sort?  Did events happen that you assumed were the work of divine dabling?

Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
How well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.

1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.

2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.

4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.

5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.

6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.

7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.

But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members" -
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Incorporated - Book - The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide - 1986 Edition - Page 10.

If Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross results in his being the mediator for only 144,000 earthlings, what about the rest of us - millions of folks - are we to be understood as being just dead in our sins?

(My bold)
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 08, 2016, 05:09:38 PM
1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.
Two things, I acknowledge your concession, thank you.
You added something I find really strange: "The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.".  The bible does not say Satan caused a serpent to speak at all.  That is your own rationalisation that I would like you to justify.   Please do not ignore this question like you have so many in this thread  By showing me your method we can use this to see if it works elsewhere.  That would actually be taking me step by step.  Are you going to do that?

Quote from: Jst1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.
You are mistaken Jst. Refer to REPLY#47  Can you show me any answers you have provided to these questions?
Will you please address them, actually take me step by step instead of dodging and then claiming you are actually doing something.


Quote from: Jst2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.
Let me remind you of what you said "I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.".
I want to see if what you say is true. 
Let me put it in a syllogism for your consideration and response.
P1. Ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
P2. Suffering and death are experienced by humans.
P3. Atheists are not immune and in fact experience suffering and death.
C. Atheists ignore God's instructions.

Is one or more premises wrong? 
Is this syllogism invalid? 


Quote from: Jst4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.
You failed to address 4 of my questions in this one paragraph.  Do you seem a common trend with your recent posting style?  Seems you cannot defend your position and you are in fact dodging.   You are demonstrating this with every question you dodge. 

Quote from: Jst5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.
OK.  How about tackling the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.

Quote from: Jst6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.
OK. How do you identify this imparting of holy spirit?  Lots of different people who self identify as Christians make similar assertions yet come to vastly different conclusions. So the assertion alone is a useless statement.




Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
Quote from: TSThis leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?
Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?
Is that a reasonable position to hold?
Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
Quote from: TSHow well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
Quote from: Jst7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.
I did not ask you to test it Jst, I asked you to reconcile John 1:1 + 1:14 with what you have been telling me for a multiple years. Seems you are unable to do that either.

I also asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

These basic questions remain neglected.
Are they not valid questions?
Or do you not have a valid answer? 
Not having an answer is OK Jst, please just let me know.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

Quote from: Teaspoon Shallow on July 10, 2016, 05:44:43 AM
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 08, 2016, 05:09:38 PM
1a.  You're right.  God is not a mechanism.  He is an agent.  The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.
Two things, I acknowledge your concession, thank you.
You added something I find really strange: "The Bible does not tell what mechanism Satan used to cause the serpent to speak.".  The bible does not say Satan caused a serpent to speak at all.  That is your own rationalisation that I would like you to justify.   Please do not ignore this question like you have so many in this thread  By showing me your method we can use this to see if it works elsewhere.  That would actually be taking me step by step.  Are you going to do that?

Quote from: Jst1b.  I am not dodging.  I attempted to take you step by step but you won't.
You are mistaken Jst. Refer to REPLY#47  Can you show me any answers you have provided to these questions?
Will you please address them, actually take me step by step instead of dodging and then claiming you are actually doing something.


Quote from: Jst2.  Again, I'm not positing anything about JWs.  Just like if I say that unwashed hands lead to sickness, I not positing anything about JWs.
Let me remind you of what you said "I said ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.".
I want to see if what you say is true. 
Let me put it in a syllogism for your consideration and response.
P1. Ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and death.
P2. Suffering and death are experienced by humans.
P3. Atheists are not immune and in fact experience suffering and death.
C. Atheists ignore God's instructions.

Is one or more premises wrong? 
Is this syllogism invalid? 


Quote from: Jst4.  Not dodging, just assessing your knowledge of the scripture you posted.
You failed to address 4 of my questions in this one paragraph.  Do you seem a common trend with your recent posting style?  Seems you cannot defend your position and you are in fact dodging.   You are demonstrating this with every question you dodge. 

Quote from: Jst5.  I'm not tackling multiple subjects at once.
OK.  How about tackling the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible.

Quote from: Jst6.  He answers me by imparting holy spirit to me.
OK. How do you identify this imparting of holy spirit?  Lots of different people who self identify as Christians make similar assertions yet come to vastly different conclusions. So the assertion alone is a useless statement.




Quote from: Jst7.   One must do what God has said.
Quote from: TSThis leads to the obvious question, how do you know what god has actually said if he has never, ever spoken to you?
Do you rely on what other men have claimed god has said?  The bible?  The Watch Tower magazines?  Wilson's posts?
Is that a reasonable position to hold?
Quote from: Jst7.  I rely on what the Bible says because what it says works.
Quote from: TSHow well does it work?  How do you reconcile the following:

Jesus is a god is he not?

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?

Additionally, if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
Quote from: Jst7.  That is not a scripture one can test and see if it works.
I did not ask you to test it Jst, I asked you to reconcile John 1:1 + 1:14 with what you have been telling me for a multiple years. Seems you are unable to do that either.

I also asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?

These basic questions remain neglected.
Are they not valid questions?
Or do you not have a valid answer? 
Not having an answer is OK Jst, please just let me know.

1.  Now that that is settled you can answer my question.  How could the serpent in Genesis speak?

2.  I don't need to refer back.  Are you ready to go through the process?  Step one is reasoning and logic.  Refer to #1.

3.  Your syllogism doesn't make sense.  Compare:

P1 Unwashed hands lead to sickness.
P2 Sickness is experienced by humans.
P3 Atheists are not immune but suffer sickness.
P4 Atheists don't wash their hands.

Again, I am not positing anything about JWs.

4.  No I am not.  I am simply refusing to reinvent the wheel by reproducing information that is already readily available about John 1:1.  Since different translations render it differently (see John 1:1 on Wiki for examples) I see no reason to assume the translation you quoted most accurately conveys the meaning and your question depends on that translation being the most accurate.

5.  Right.  Step one is reasoning and logic.  See #1 above.

6.  By knowing myself and recognizing a holy spirit that does not originate with me.  However this too is a different topic.

7.   Right.  Your question doesn't make sense in light of my statement that I rely on the scriptures because they work.  It is not possible to put John 1:1 into practice to see if it works.  You are making a category error.

9.   You should form your own conclusions rather than accepting/rejecting mine.  Refer to #1 above.  If you are not interested in using your own reasoning then there is no need to continue. 
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 18, 2016, 05:44:52 PM
1.  Now that that is settled you can answer my question.  How could the serpent in Genesis speak?
I do not know of a mechanism to make the serpent in Genesis speak. 

Quote from: Jwb2.  I don't need to refer back.  Are you ready to go through the process?  Step one is reasoning and logic.  Refer to #1.
Sure

Quote from: Jwb3.  Your syllogism doesn't make sense.  Compare:

P1 Unwashed hands lead to sickness.
P2 Sickness is experienced by humans.
P3 Atheists are not immune but suffer sickness.
P4 Atheists don't wash their hands.

Again, I am not positing anything about JWs.

OK, lets see if you can clarify your post for me. Here is your quote: "....ignoring God's instructions leads to suffering and even death.  This is directly demonstratable in many instances from the reality we see around us." (reply #57)

Can obeying gods instructions also lead to suffering and death?   

Quote from: Jwb4.  No I am not.  I am simply refusing to reinvent the wheel by reproducing information that is already readily available about John 1:1.  Since different translations render it differently (see John 1:1 on Wiki for examples) I see no reason to assume the translation you quoted most accurately conveys the meaning and your question depends on that translation being the most accurate.
Let us use the New World Translation:

John 1:1
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."
John 1:14
"So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth."

Is that referring to Jesus, yes, no or you don't know?

Is Jesus a true god, or is he a false god or is he not a god at all?
This is an actual trilemma, can you reconcile it?

Quote from: Jwb5.  Right.  Step one is reasoning and logic.  See #1 above.
Does that clearly show me the precise method you use to differentiate the metaphorical and the literal in the bible?

Quote from: Jwb6.  By knowing myself and recognizing a holy spirit that does not originate with me.  However this too is a different topic.
How do you recognise this holy spirit? Feel free to start a new thread if you prefer.

Quote from: Jwb7.   Right.  Your question doesn't make sense in light of my statement that I rely on the scriptures because they work.  It is not possible to put John 1:1 into practice to see if it works.  You are making a category error.
Is your point that not all scripture works?

Quote from: Jwb9.   You should form your own conclusions rather than accepting/rejecting mine.  Refer to #1 above.  If you are not interested in using your own reasoning then there is no need to continue.
1 John 4:1 New World Translation
Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

You claim the bible contains metaphors, I have asked you if the bible contains metaphors, how do you Jst, distinguish the metaphorical from the literal? 
Does the bible clearly articulate every metaphor or does it rely on personal interpretation?
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Jstwebbrowsing

1.  Okay so something is obviously amiss because the serpent spoke.  What about mechanisms that make it appear the serpent is speaking?

3.  Sometimes it has.

4.  Yes it is about Christ.  However, when studying the scriptures in depth, I don't think it is wise to soley rely on any one translation alone.  After comparisons of various tranlations, immediate context, and the scriptures as a whole, it appears to me that it is saying that Christ is the perfect image of God.  He is God in that he possesses the fullness of God's spirit, and his divine (heavenly) nature.  It's just like saying Christians form Christ's body.  They are not literally Christ, but insofar as they possess the spirit of Christ they are Christ and even speak to God in the name of Christ.   

Christ prayed "may they all (his disciples) be one AS we are one."  For me this removes all mystery.  As Christians are one with Christ so Christ is with Jehovah.  This is another example of allowing the Bible to give meaning to it's own metaphors.

5.  See below.

6.  By coming to know that spirit from examining it's past that's recorded in the scriptures.  Once you are familiar with it's workings, you can recognize it in the world.  Compare that to being able to pick out an intimate associate from a crowd based on their behavior.  It's not infallible but it is possible and the closer you are and the more you know about that person the easier it becomes.  It also depends on the power of your perception.

7.  No I am saying that not all scriptures can be practiced.  Those that can be practiced can be tested to see if they achieve the results the scriptures predict.  "God is in heaven" isn't something one can say "works".  It isn't something testable. 

8.  Why bring up 1 John?  An "inspired expression" is what I am declining to give you.  Instead I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.

Mechanism:  The mechanisms for understanding the scriptures is dilligent study and reliance on God.  Interpretations belong to him.   
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

eyeshaveit

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 06:43:37 AM

I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.

Are you sure individuals are allowed to do that? What about the organization ("the faithful and discreet slave"), what about them? Aren't you afraid of apostate doctrines? See below \/ \/ \/ \/ \/.

"Only this organization functions for Jehovah's purpose and to his praise. To it alone God's Sacred Word, the Bible, is not a sealed book" - "The Watchtower" - July 1, 1973 - Page 402.

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible" - "The Watchtower" - October 1, 1967 - Page 587.

"We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the 'faithful and discreet slave' organization" - "The Watchtower" - February 15, 1981.

"From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude. They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago" - "The Watchtower" - August 15, 1981.

"All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the "greatly diversified wisdom of God" can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave" - "The Watchtower" - October 1, 1994 - Page 8.

Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.

Jstwebbrowsing

The Bible also helps us recognize other spirits, particularly satanic ones.  These are characterized, not by helping others draw close to God, but by accusations and temptations of others.  Consider the behavior of the religious leaders of Christ's time.  Rather than sheperding their flock, they spent their time trying to draw away Christ's disciples by trolling behind him looking for reasons to accuse him.  Not only were they not opening any doors for others, they were trying to close the door that God had opened by silencing Christ.

So even though some people talk a lot about the Gospel of God, by their fruits (or by the spirit they show) you can know them for what they really are.  Do they try to help you draw close to God, or do they stone wall you while trying to stop those that are trying to help you?

I have nothing to do with satanic spirits and I am not going to respond to Eyes.  If you want to listen to Eyes then he has a thread for talking about JWs and one for talking about Catholics too.  I will not interfere.
But the greatest one among you must be your minister.  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled,
and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mt 23:11,12

Teaspoon Shallow

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 06:43:37 AM
1.  Okay so something is obviously amiss because the serpent spoke.
I agree, in the narrative a serpent spoke.
Was there an actual snake? 
Did it actually speak?
You agreed previously this could be a metaphor, if it is then asking questions like "how did X do Y" seems kind of pointless as it misses the bigger picture, wouldn't you agree?
I think the more important thing is to understand what the message the writer was trying to convey.  We all make a model in our minds about reality but is not reality itself.  You have an understanding (construction of a model in your mind), the procedure you used to build that model is important to 1. build other models using the same logic 2. test if it is reasonable or unreasonable.

Quote from: JstWhat about mechanisms that make it appear the serpent is speaking?
There are a lot illusory ways this could happen, if it did happen at all.
Again, as you advised this could be metaphorical.
If it is metaphorical then it did not actual occur in reality as described.


Quote from: Jst3.  Sometimes it has.
To summarise, heeding or ignoring gods instruction's can lead to suffering and death.  If that is true suffering and death are going to occur regardless of your actions.

Quote from: Jst4.  Yes it is about Christ.  However, when studying the scriptures in depth, I don't think it is wise to soley rely on any one translation alone.  After comparisons of various tranlations, immediate context, and the scriptures as a whole, it appears to me that it is saying that Christ is the perfect image of God.  He is God in that he possesses the fullness of God's spirit, and his divine (heavenly) nature.  It's just like saying Christians form Christ's body.  They are not literally Christ, but insofar as they possess the spirit of Christ they are Christ and even speak to God in the name of Christ.   

Christ prayed "may they all (his disciples) be one AS we are one."  For me this removes all mystery.  As Christians are one with Christ so Christ is with Jehovah.  This is another example of allowing the Bible to give meaning to it's own metaphors.
Let us speak clearly and not ambiguously, given the two scriptures John 1:1 & John 1:14
Is Jesus literally:
1. a true god
2. a false god
3. not a god at all
4. you do not know

Quote from: Jst6.  By coming to know that spirit from examining it's past that's recorded in the scriptures.  Once you are familiar with it's workings, you can recognize it in the world.  Compare that to being able to pick out an intimate associate from a crowd based on their behavior.  It's not infallible but it is possible and the closer you are and the more you know about that person the easier it becomes.  It also depends on the power of your perception.
If a phenomenon is observed but the cause is wrongly assert, then every time you see that phenomenon will you will be attributing the wrong cause.  What is more important is to demonstrate the cause and that seems to be lacking.

Quote from: Jst7.  No I am saying that not all scriptures can be practiced.  Those that can be practiced can be tested to see if they achieve the results the scriptures predict.  "God is in heaven" isn't something one can say "works".  It isn't something testable. 
Interpretation can be tested. 
If you interpret the bible literally, then the method is reasonably clear.  The problem with this method if something contradictory is discovered it will demonstrate claims in the bible are false.  This is a good thing as it is not ambiguous and the bible can stand on its own merits and not of those trying to prop it up with reasoning.

If you claim the bible contains metaphors your reasoning becomes very cloudy and open to personal interpretations. This method can be used regardless of the intentions of the original story teller, scribe, editor and the inspiration source.  Making it non falsifiable and practically useless for determining truth.  This would lead to all sorts of confusion and arguments.  If you use this method you would expect to find schisms and division.  A house divided with an author of confusion.   

Quote from: Jst8.  Why bring up 1 John?  An "inspired expression" is what I am declining to give you.  Instead I am asking you to apply your own reasoning and logic.
Is 1 Peter 3:15 metaphorical?

Quote from: JstMechanism:  The mechanisms for understanding the scriptures is dilligent study and reliance on God.  Interpretations belong to him.
If that were true Jst, you would expect Christians who have equally studied the bible to form the same conclusions (being guided by God). You would expect Christians would be united under the one true church. But that is not what history has demonstrated.
So I do not see your proposed mechanism consistently & reliably leading to understanding the scripture. 
Why does your mechanism fail for so many? 
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That's the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

eyeshaveit

#83
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
The Bible also helps us recognize other spirits, particularly satanic ones.  These are characterized, not by helping others draw close to God, but by accusations and temptations of others.  Consider the behavior of the religious leaders of Christ's time.  Rather than sheperding their flock, they spent their time trying to draw away Christ's disciples by trolling behind him looking for reasons to accuse him.  Not only were they not opening any doors for others, they were trying to close the door that God had opened by silencing Christ.

True faith elevates not a delight in human effort and performance. True faith extols and reveres what God has done; what Jehovah is doing.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved" - John 10.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
So even though some people talk a lot about the Gospel of God, by their fruits (or by the spirit they show) you can know them for what they really are.  Do they try to help you draw close to God, or do they stone wall you while trying to stop those that are trying to help you?

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Incorporated teachings are based on "bible principles". Jehovah's witnesses have instructed, in the pages of The Watchtower, about hundreds of bible principles. But people realized their total inability to keep such a never-ending list; they know that they are sinners, who can't keep this law and they cry out for mercy.

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." - John 10.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing on July 19, 2016, 11:27:07 PM
I have nothing to do with satanic spirits and I am not going to respond to Eyes.

Bible principles, by definition, direct attention to sin, and once convicted of sin, you must turn to Jesus Christ to be healed.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10.
Jesus Christ died so you could have access to God.