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Augusto vs. Mooby: Is Mooby an Atheist?

Started by Mooby the Golden Sock, November 25, 2012, 06:49:24 PM

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Mooby the Golden Sock

Hi, I'm Mooby, and I think I believe in God.  More specifically, I consider myself a Catholic Christian.


Augusto and I are here to test Augusto's theory that every healthy person is an atheist.  This theory is aimed at people who meet two criteria:

- "Healthy" - "not a cronically depressive guy, someone without mental issues."
I have never been diagnosed with depression nor any other mental illness.  I also consider myself a rather happy, well-adjusted guy.

- "religious people who believe in a defined God, a God that communicates, the God of the bible."
As a theist, I believe in a personal god who can communicate with us.  As a Catholic, I believe this god is the same God found in such writings as the Bible, Catholic Sacred Tradition, and in the texts of various theologians and philosophers.

Thus, I feel I am an appropriate candidate for a case study to test Augusto's theory.  As a reminder, a case study is the lowest form of evidence: a successful result is not proof of the theory, but instead is an indicator that the theory is worth investigating.


It is my understanding that over the course of this discussion Augusto will attempt to convince you and possibly me that I am an atheist.  So I will now step aside and let him begin.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

My point is that no theist can honestly believe in God if he or she is psychologically and emotionally healthy.

1) Okay Mooby, I would assume you do believe in Jesus, Mary, the original sin, miracles, the trinity, the pope, the bible and so on, as your faith demands. Am I right?

2) If so, you should consider the bible a divinely inspired book... the word of God written by men. Am I right?

3) Do you think you could refute most theists have NEVER read the bible, yet consider it a divine and truthful book? How can you explain the acceptance of something as sacred and real and the lack of interest in knowing about it? Today almost every american owns a bible, yet, the number of people who have read the entire book is incredibly small.

A nice explanation I can think of is this: People like to consider themselves theists, but they don't want to read all that crap because deep down they know, on a subconscious level, that God is a nice walking stick but nothing else. Therefore, they'll use it in any way they feel like using it, without actually paying much attention to "details".

This is my first argument. People use the idea of God, an even take part of a religion, because of its many emotional beneficts:
- Social interaction.
- Feel good about themselves (son of God, loved, eternal life, perfect justice and so on).
- A nice walking stick for hard times (death, illness, poverty).
- A way to feel better than others (other religious groups are fake/doomed, racial supremacy, God loves your country).

but their false faith becomes evident by the fact that most of them never finish reading the only book that can tell them everything that have been officially recognized as the word of God and his "historical actions". It seems just absurd that while claiming to believe your soul is in the hands of a ever-watching God, you wouldn't care about reading his best seller. Do you agree?

Mooby the Golden Sock

Looks like you're aiming a bit more general than I initially thought.  Fair enough; I'll try to adjust accordingly.

1) Yes, I believe in:
- The Trinity, with Jesus as the second person
- Mary, the virgin mother of Jesus
- The ability of God to work miracles
- Original sin/concupiscence
- The pope as the human spiritual leader of the Catholic Church
- The Bible as the inspired word of God
among other things.

2) Yes, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

3) I don't know the percentages.  I think it's safe to say that most Christians have read parts of the Bible and are fairly familiar with it, but that fewer have read it cover to cover.  Personally, while I have read large parts of the Bible, I have not read the Bible in its entirety (though I intend to do so at some point.)

QuotePeople like to consider themselves theists, but they don't want to read all that crap because deep down they know, on a subconscious level, that God is a nice walking stick but nothing else[. . .]their false faith becomes evident by the fact that most of them never finish reading the only book that can tell them everything that have been officially recognized as the word of God and his "historical actions". It seems just absurd that while claiming to believe your soul is in the hands of a ever-watching God, you wouldn't care about reading his best seller. Do you agree?
No.

I'm going to address two assumptions here: that having read the entire Bible is a good criterion to determine whether someone has Christian faith, and that reading the entire Bible is necessary for Christian faith.

On the first point, it's difficult to use reading an entire book as a marker of faith.  First off, there's the matter of practicality: can we say that younger people can't have faith, or illiterate people, or people who can't keep attention long enough to read an entire book, or those who don't have access?  Can we say someone who's read most of the book but didn't finish Revelations is actually an atheist?  What about those who have read parts of the book, or intend to read it in its entirety but haven't done so yet?

As you yourself mentioned, most Americans own a Bible, have read at least some of it, and are familiar with many of its contents.  Many also attend religious services where parts of the Bible are read, discussed, and/or quoted.  Also, for Catholics, the Bible is not the only way we find out about God.  The Catholic Church has different levels of magisterium (teaching authority) that are based in Scripture, Church Councils, Papal letters, important theological writings, and priestly leadership, among others.  So I don't see how we can look to how much one has read the Bible as a solid marker for Christian faith.

On the second point, the Bible isn't really structured to be read cover to cover.  It doesn't read like a novel or even a textbook.  Rather, it is a collection of books encompassing multiple different styles and genres.  It contains creation myths, historical stories, genealogy, proverbs, songs, poetry, apocalyptic texts, etc.  There is a lot of overlap in this, with some stories appearing multiple times in different places.

Expanding on that, not everything in the Bible has the same amount of spiritual significance to believers.  Some things, such as the major Gospel events, are highly significant to modern Christianity.  Others, such as genealogies, connect different stories and have very little, if any, spiritual relevance.  Other parts are more a historical artifact, such as the Old Testament Jewish Law that was largely supplanted by Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

When you combine both of those, I think it becomes quite clear that the Bible's format encourages readers to jump around a lot, read areas that overlap thematically, and use it more as a spiritual reference than as a novel to be read cover-to-cover.  And, in fact, that's how most people use it.

So for these reasons, I just don't see how you can jump to the conclusion that those who haven't read the Bible fail to do so because they secretly lack faith.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 25, 2012, 10:07:40 PM
Yes, I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

...It contains creation myths, historical stories, genealogy, proverbs, songs, poetry, apocalyptic texts, etc.  There is a lot of overlap in this, with some stories appearing multiple times in different places.

Okay, nice to know you're part of those who haven't read the book. As an educated person, you have learned "what's in it", even when you haven read the thing, but there is a problem, at least I do not see how God could inspire creation myths and apocalyptic texts, not to mention those long and boring genealogies, catalogs and prehistoric laws, I mean... how do you believe the book to be a mix of stuff, some plain fantasy, some dated rules, some "poetry", and at the end some important parts and at the same time the inspired word of God?

Basically you're saying God likes apocalyptic readings, probably he likes Zagan's I Robot? he also likes myths, poetry... sometimes violent poetry... prophecies... sometimes never fulfilled ones... Now I know why you never read the book, it repeated itself in different parts? I guess it's better to sort of read some parts and learn from wikipedia the rest or something, because the inspired word of God sounds terrible even when you didn't mention the moral issues such as torture, raping, the inconsistencies and absurdities... but there is a problem with not reading the book:

You know the prices from church: eternal soul, big reward of justice, you can go to heaven, resurrection, grace, a stone with a name in it, to sit near Jesus... well, I would go crazy if I were seeing this adverticing over TV... THE ABILITY TO CHEAT DEATH? okay, living on a perfect world should be better than going to Mars and I've not even gone to the moon, this God is telling me I will see His Glory, and ANGELS and beings full of eyes, that's crazier than any alien movie I've seen... how much? FREE okay I want it... I totally get why you're a christian.

The problem is you cannot just "say" you're a christian and expect me to believe it, I must see if it's true. Okay, you need... FAITH... but you're not showing much by not reading the book and dismissing some parts without even reading them... fantasy you say? okay man but it's DANGEROUS not to read it because you can miss the prices and also... you can get the punishment: torture in hell for all eternity, in which your tooth will crack!

What? You still plan to read it "some day" well, what if you die tomorrow? what if you don't get the chance to regret from your sins? what are you going to say to the Lord... you found the book boring because of the repetitions and endless poetry and songs that doesn't rhyme because of the translation to your language?

I think you own us a reasonable answer to this, I cannot admit you're crazy enough to avoid reading the INSPIRED WORD OF THE ONLY GOD, which is only ONE BOOK on earth, there is no other book like that, I mean... inspired by the only God, full of beauty and history and evidence and emotional power and INFORMATION for salvation and to avoid going to hell. How could you ignore it and just check what's it about over the internet or listening to what others tell you? How could you risk to the biggest punishment and increase your chances to lose the biggest reward ever? What if they didn't get it right? What if they're lying? You're telling me you didn't check? What amazes me is that most people in the world agree with you... they didn't check either!

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 25, 2012, 10:07:40 PMI'm going to address two assumptions here: that having read the entire Bible is a good criterion to determine whether someone has Christian faith, and that reading the entire Bible is necessary for Christian faith.

Let's keep it to your case, please don't tell me there are people who cannot read. If you were offered 10 billion dollars vs being killed along with your whole family and loved ones after months of torture on "a game", and you say you accept to take part of that, and you get a manual... please explain why you would just ask others what's the overall information in that manual after reading some parts?

---

I think I'll move to my second argument right now:

In adition to not reading the bible, you don't follow Christ's teachings... I really want to know why you ignore his word, and I asume you do ignore him, like pretty much everyone because logic says so. Jesus commanded you to give everything you have to the poor (Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22, Mark 10:21) How come you still have everything? Do you want to go to hell? It's crazy to BELIEVE in something, and act like that something wasn't real, I mean, Jesus said it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) for rich people to enter in heaven.

Have you at least leave your whole family to follow his teachings? no? okay... he asked you to do just that, and he is GOD. have you spreaded the ghospel to all nations? a little bit over the internet? man, that's not it...!

Okay, so you claim to believe in God but you have ignored his inspired word and you haven't follow his orders. How do you expect me to think you're a theist? because all theists are pretty much like you? mmm...

a) They are satanic and they're planning to go to hell to be part of a rebelion against God to take him down.
b) They are just atheists deep down who like using the walking stick at their convenience.

Mooby the Golden Sock

Quote from: Augusto on November 25, 2012, 11:38:13 PMI do not see how God could inspire creation myths and apocalyptic texts, not to mention those long and boring genealogies, catalogs and prehistoric laws, I mean... how do you believe the book to be a mix of stuff, some plain fantasy, some dated rules, some "poetry", and at the end some important parts and at the same time the inspired word of God?
As I mentioned before, stuff like the genealogies acts as a transition between different areas.  For instance, there are genealogies connecting Adam and Even to Noah and later Abraham, and there are genealogies connecting Jesus to the Old Testament.  Things like Israelite history and the historic laws (not prehistoric) were a way the Biblical authors grounded God's revelations into their own culture and perspective.

As for myths, apocalyptic texts, poetry, etc., I'm not sure why you cannot see how God can inspire those.  Do you think such forms of writing cannot contain any truth?

QuoteBasically you're saying God likes apocalyptic readings, probably he likes Zagan's I Robot? he also likes myths, poetry... sometimes violent poetry... prophecies... sometimes never fulfilled ones...
Zagan?  Do you mean... Asimov?  I don't even know who Zagan is...

I'm saying that I believe God inspired the biblical authors to write the Bible, and that those are some of the genres of writing that resulted.

QuoteYou know the prices from church: eternal soul, big reward of justice, you can go to heaven, resurrection, grace, a stone with a name in it, to sit near Jesus... well, I would go crazy if I were seeing this adverticing over TV... THE ABILITY TO CHEAT DEATH? okay, living on a perfect world should be better than going to Mars and I've not even gone to the moon, this God is telling me I will see His Glory, and ANGELS and beings full of eyes, that's crazier than any alien movie I've seen... how much? FREE okay I want it... I totally get why you're a christian.
This is too disjointed for me to follow what you're trying to say.  Something about me being a Christian because of Heaven?

QuoteThe problem is you cannot just "say" you're a christian and expect me to believe it, I must see if it's true.
If I recall correctly, your theory is that healthy theists are actually atheists, not that you think they are.  Per the premise of this thread, I am a self-proclaimed Christian who thinks he believes in God.  That belief does not revolve around meeting the personal criteria that an atheist feels I should meet to convince them of its legitimacy.  How are you even qualified to judge whether I am a Christian?

QuoteOkay, you need... FAITH... but you're not showing much by not reading the book and dismissing some parts without even reading them...
Which parts of the Bible do I dismiss?

Quotefantasy you say?
No, I'm pretty sure I did not say that.

QuoteWhat? You still plan to read it "some day" well, what if you die tomorrow?
So what?  I will still die a Christian.  As I spent two paragraphs telling you, I don't think that reading the Bible is necessary to be a Christian.

Quotewhat if you don't get the chance to regret from your sins?
Repenting sins has absolutely nothing to do with reading the Bible from cover to cover.  And to my knowledge it's not a sin to fail to read the Bible from cover to cover.  So how exactly is this in any way relevant?

QuoteI think you own us a reasonable answer to this, I cannot admit you're crazy enough to avoid reading the INSPIRED WORD OF THE ONLY GOD, which is only ONE BOOK on earth, there is no other book like that, I mean... inspired by the only God, full of beauty and history and evidence and emotional power and INFORMATION for salvation and to avoid going to hell. How could you ignore it and just check what's it about over the internet or listening to what others tell you? How could you risk to the biggest punishment and increase your chances to lose the biggest reward ever? What if they didn't get it right? What if they're lying? You're telling me you didn't check?
What are you smoking?  I told you in my last post that I have read large portions of it.  In addition, I go to Church, where passages from the Bible are read and discussed.  Next, as I alluded in my last post, I use the Bible as a reference, which means when I need to look up a passage, I look up a passage.

You claim:
- I avoid reading the Bible
FALSE: I have never avoided the Bible

- I just check what it's about over the Internet or listen to someone else
FALSE: I almost always look up the relevant section, in context, even if I already know what it says, especially on this site where some people will post any random verse and then ass-pull an argument out of it without bothering to understand what the text is saying.

Did you not understand my last post?

QuoteIf you were offered 10 billion dollars vs being killed along with your whole family and loved ones after months of torture on "a game", and you say you accept to take part of that, and you get a manual... please explain why you would just ask others what's the overall information in that manual after reading some parts?
It depends on a lot of factors, including time and use.  For instance, if the book clearly contains off-topic introductions, an index, a credits page, rules that won't apply to me, etc., then I'm better off reading the stuff that I'll need for the game.

Do you not understand the concept of using a book for reference?  Examples include:
- Car, computer, cell phone manuals - you use them when you need them
- Games like Dungeons and Dragons - you read the initial rules and the rules for the characters you need, and then reference the rest

It's really not a difficult concept.

QuoteJesus commanded you to give everything you have to the poor (Matthew 19:21, Luke 18:22, Mark 10:21) How come you still have everything? Do you want to go to hell? It's crazy to BELIEVE in something, and act like that something wasn't real, I mean, Jesus said it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) for rich people to enter in heaven.
Here's the perfect example of why I reread every verse posted in context, even though I knew which story you were referencing.

In this story, Jesus illustrates the concept of the "I Do" vs. "Other Did." (I and O, respectively.)  The verses you quote establish why "I Do" ultimately fails--why one cannot earn salvation by brute force.  Matthew 19:26 (and the analogues in the other stories) illustrate the "Other Did"--that through Jesus, this gap can be closed.

QuoteHave you at least leave your whole family to follow his teachings? no? okay... he asked you to do just that, and he is GOD. have you spreaded the ghospel to all nations? a little bit over the internet? man, that's not it...!
Though I have a general idea of what passages you're referring to, you'll need to address them specifically if you want me to respond them specifically, so that I can freely reference the source text when responding.

QuoteOkay, so you claim to believe in God but you have ignored his inspired word and you haven't follow his orders. How do you expect me to think you're a theist?
Both of those are false.

Do you intend to argue your point by making wild, untrue assumptions about me in every post?
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

Christian means a little christ... an imitator of Christ's teachings, and it's safe to assume you want to be perfected in the fruits of the holy spirit, earn salvation and keep it, love God and others and follow the bible law because of love and all that stuff, I don't know what you're trying to do by challenging the concept of being a christian. In any case, it all goes to believing or not and so far:

a) You admited most people (including you) haven't read the bible: that shows an extreme lack of interest in knowing the inspired word of God.

b) You're admiting you do not follow certain teachings of Jesus (if any): that excuse of earning salvation by grace couldn't possibly work if God were real because you would be mocking of him. Salvation is always undeserved but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the word of God and his teachings. Rules still apply, it is only after you do everything you have been demanded that you'll go to heaven BY GRACE and not by merith, because you'll still be unworthy, unless you're confident in your faith... which you cannot because faith becomes evident throught your actions.

---

Okay, you did not care about reading the whole bible and you argue you dont need to, even when Joshua 1:8 along many other versicles says the opposite; you basically say you can do whatever you like and that wont change the fact that "you're a christian" even when the bible says the opposite, am I right?

Now please tell me this: why christians doesn't want to die, even when they claim to embrace such beautiful promises? could it be they just don't buy them?

Edit: Yes, I confused Carl Sagan with Isaac Asimov ||popcorn||

Mooby the Golden Sock

Quote from: Augusto on November 26, 2012, 04:39:57 AMa) You admited most people (including you) haven't read the bible: that shows an extreme lack of interest in knowing the inspired word of God.
I disagree.  I've read the Bible, taken multiple classes on the Bible, and studied the Bible.  I have great interest in what the Bible says, what it means, and what its spiritual message is.  I just haven't read every last word.

Nowhere did I "admit" that most people haven't read the Bible.  In fact, I said the exact opposite: most people have read the Bible.  I also said that "fewer than most" have read every last word, but told you I don't know the percentages.

Quoteb) You're admiting you do not follow certain teachings of Jesus (if any):
I "admitted" nothing of the sort.

Quotethat excuse of earning salvation by grace couldn't possibly work if God were real because you would be mocking of him. Salvation is always undeserved but that doesn't mean you can just ignore the word of God and his teachings.
I never said anywhere that anyone should ignore the word of God and/or His teachings.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite of this.  Twice.

Please read my posts before you reply to them.  Reading your posts and then imagining what you wanted me to reply is not working well.




QuoteOkay, you did not care about reading the whole bible and you argue you dont need to, even when Joshua 1:8 along many other versicles says the opposite;
Your second quote mine of the thread.  ||wink||

Joshua 1:8 is a continuation of Johsua 1:7, which clearly refers to the Jewish Law given to Moses.  This is not equivalent to the Bible; it doesn't even encompass the entire Old Testament, and it includes Jewish texts not in the Christian Bible.  Furthermore, per New Testament tradition Jesus fulfilled and supplanted The Law, which became an official part of Christian theology at the Council of Jerusalem.

Furthermore, the verse says that Jews should keep the Law on their lips, and meditate on it, but nowhere does it say they should read every word.  Likewise, even those Christians who have not read every word of the Bible keep its verses on their lips and meditate on it.

Quoteyou basically say you can do whatever you like and that wont change the fact that "you're a christian" even when the bible says the opposite, am I right?
No, I did not say this at all.

QuoteNow please tell me this: why christians doesn't want to die, even when they claim to embrace such beautiful promises? could it be they just don't buy them?
Because we believe that life is a gift from God with its own merits, and that we should not seek to end it prematurely.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

Okay, this is not working. I do not know you and I have no interest in studying your case over the internet and in adition, on a debate. I stated since the beginning this was intended for the average theistic believer. So this is what I propose: we're going to stop taking about you because it isn't productive. I'll make an open question in the discussion topic and you're free to answer it as well, then we will continue, but not talking only about you (also you were the one who came with this title for the debate, which I do not see as something appropiate).

Mooby the Golden Sock

I said in my first reply to you that I was fine with going more general.  The title is just a title; I think it's catchy.  I do this a lot with threads (I Love You More Than Cow; Poetry: Or, The Truest Falsehoods of Man, etc.)
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

#9
Yeap, problem solved then.

Back on the topic then... before I continue I want to make clear you cannot ignore the word of Jesus/God in flesh at your convenience (I use "you" in reference to any christian and not you speciphically), according to the bible:

1) You cannot do whatever you want and expect to go to heaven:
- Matthew 5.20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
- Matthew 7.21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- Matthew 7.26-27 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
- Matthew 15.3 "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"
- Mark 7.9 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
- John 12.48-49 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."

2) Jesus wants you to give everything to the poor and follow him:
- Matthew 19.21-24 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

3) It looks like the catholic "club" could be more important than the word of God:
- Matthew 6.7  But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
- Matthew 23.9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

4) Jesus basically said you should ignore EVERYTHING and follow him:
- Matthew 6.19-21 "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal, for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
- Matthew 6.25-33  "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? (...)  But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
- Matthew 8.21-22 "And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."
- Matthew 19.29 "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

5) Jesus said you should follow him even at the cost of your life or else you'll go to hell:
- Matthew 10.28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
- Matthew 10.37-39 "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."
- Matthew 16.21-26 "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"
- Matthew 18-9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

6) Jesus wants you to go and spread his word:
- Matthew 28.19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

7) Jesus says everyone is an atheist and everyone is going to hell:
- Mark 16.16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Basically, if you believe Jesus/God said this, you just need to put your hands on a sick person to heal him, and if nothing happens, you'll go to hell... if you don't think you'll go to hell because of not being able to do any of those things, you have no faith and you're an atheist and go to hell eitherway in case God were real.

You see... Jesus is not going to help you win this debate. Now, would you admit christians don't follow Jesus's teachings?

Augusto

This is a little piece I've been writing in word to make sure I am as clear as possible; in here I will review and explain my points in a way I hope is easier for everyone to understand:

1) The bible: Your little daughter wants you to read a story she wrote about her own family, you say: "brief me; I'm only interested in the parts I appear in". Sure you get the story, but you lock it down somewhere. Another example is, you find the diary of your loved one, you're really in love with this person but you haven't seen him/her, all you have done is send mails, then you find the diary and you know he/she wrote down everything for you to read, then you say: "it's long, I'll read it some other day, besides I already know the fun parts".
By not reading the story of your daughter or the diary of your loved one you?re clearly showing you don?t care about them, but when applying this to the bible and God, it becomes worst because nobody have seen him. The most tangible part of him is the bible! Now, if you are dealing with amazing promises of happiness and terrible threats of suffering, the most reasonable explanation for not reading the book is YOU DON?T BELIEVE IT TO BE REAL, so you?re actually not intimidated by it.

2) The teachings: What Jesus want from you might sound crazy (and it is), but he is telling you that no pain is too much if you think of the great rewards that are awaiting for you in heaven. Also, nothing is worth an eternity in hell; Jesus insisted a lot in the torture punishment for not following his teachings, so if someone believes in him, it should be absolutely logical to do as he says, not doing it would be a defective behavior? unless you think he is lying.

3) The attachment: Whenever you are told you can go to heaven and enjoy eternal life near God and his angels and forget about sadness, suffering, misery and all that stuff? you should just try to be there as soon as possible, the idea of Bill Gates calling you to get all his money + Playboy announcing you can have sex with any model you want is nothing compared to the promises of eternal life and love and sitting near the most powerful being in existence. Basically, Jesus tells you should not be afraid of men or death, so you can just buy a ticket to an Islamic country and preach the gospel, waiting for God?s will on your life. If you die, you die as a martyr, in the name of Jesus and you?ll go to heaven, you won?t have to life years in this defective world? and if you don?t get killed, you?ll probably save some souls, which should be great, given the fact that you love everyone as if each person were yourself. It?s a win/win situation, yet, most people prefer staying in their normal lives and just go to church and say they believe in God when they could just EAT POISON to celebrate their faith and their communion with God.

Now this is the final argument? I am an angel and I?m telling you this is your last chance to go to heaven, you must:
-   Donate everything you have.
-   Leave your loved ones.
-   Spread the gospel in some marginal street full of drug addicts and prostitutes for 3 years.
-   Drink poison (Mark 16.16-18)

I assume you?re a healthy person, therefore you will not do any of this, and instead you will refuse everything I said the best you can and subconsciously try to forget about it. There is a reason why theists are so incredibly hard to be convinced with reason: THEY ALREADY KNOW THE TRUTH but they?re comfortable the way they are. Theist are not people who believe in God but people who find that idea useful, and they will not be persuaded to leave it aside easily, so? for instance, you are supporting a criminal organization well known for hiding child molesters, and you are okay with it, even when you know the pope is a criminal and the bible is a book full of lies depicting a monstrous and evil God.

Another experiment you might want to do is try to convince an average "theist" that God doesn't exist... he/she will enrage as soon as he feels you're exposing the ridicule of his beliefs, and the reason is simple: everyone know Jesus could not walk above the water or turn it to wine, everyone know there is no chance a snake could talk or a person could be turned into a statue of salt... we all know it's all lies on a suconscious level, but at some point in our lives we could be vulnerable enough to be tempted to use those lives to feel better, and that's where we make a mistake, because religious is brain washing... it's just that we must agree to be brain washed, and we cannot be persuaded to do something against our will (like giving everything away, read a boring book or drink poison).

Mooby the Golden Sock

I'm going to reply to this with three posts in argument order, with the Bible verses included under #2.

1) The bible:

Your analogy is a bit short-sighted.  As I mentioned in my first reply to you, the Bible isn't structured in the same way as a story or a diary.  It's not a single book intended to be read beginning to end.

The Bible is much closer to an anthology or collection of books under 1 title.  The Catholic Bible contains 73 books written over 1000-1500 years in 3 different languages by multiple different authors in over 10 different genres.

A story has 1 author, 1 genre, 1 story, and 1 narrative.  A diary has 1 author, 1 genre (usually), multiple stories, and 1 narrative.  The Bible has multiple authors, multiple genres, many stories, and interweaving narratives.  As I mentioned to you before, this narrative style causes stories to repeat and blend into each other, sometimes with 3-4 versions of the same story appearing in different places, sometimes with more than 1 story describing the same thing, and sometimes with 2 or more stories intertwined into 1 story.

Since you focus a lot on Jesus in your second post, per catholic-resources.org the 4 Gospels about Jesus compose approximately:
- 5% of the books
- 7% of the chapters
- 11% of the verses

To revisit your "daughter's story" analogy, this is closer to the entire school contributing pieces of literature of their choosing to one large school release, with the daughter including a story of her and her family.  Other students contributed stories, songs, fiction, nonfiction, plays, letters, copy/pastes from the Internet, and one kid just copied pages from the phone book. 

In this case, it's pretty much mandatory for the father to read the daughter's story, but the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time.  He could choose to read some of the poems or stories that interest him, and he could keep the book on hand so he could thumb through the appropriate section the next time he plans to meet one of the other kids' parents.  He'll probably never get around to reading the phone book pages, unless he has some reason to read the entire thing cover to cover and wants to brag he got to 100%.

As I told you before, "I think it becomes quite clear that the Bible's format encourages readers to jump around a lot, read areas that overlap thematically, and use it more as a spiritual reference than as a novel to be read cover-to-cover."

History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Mooby the Golden Sock

2) The Teachings:

1) You cannot do whatever you want and expect to go to heaven:

I agree in general that Jesus is saying that Heaven isn't unconditional.




2) Jesus wants you to give everything to the poor and follow him:
I already debunked this in Reply #4.  But since you just ignored that, I'll go more in depth:

Matthew 19:16-28
Quote16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, ?Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life??

17 ?Why do you ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.?

18 ?Which ones?? he inquired.

Jesus replied, ??You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,?[c] and ?love your neighbor as yourself.?[d]?

20 ?All these I have kept,? the young man said. ?What do I still lack??

21 Jesus answered, ?If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.?

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, ?Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.?

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ?Who then can be saved??

26 Jesus looked at them and said, ?With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.?

27 Peter answered him, ?We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us??

28 Jesus said to them, ?Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Now let's go through this piece by piece:

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, ?Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life??
Note that the bold text has its own section in the post I linked you to in Reply #4.  The guy appears to be asking Jesus for one specific task he can do to earn his way into Heaven.


17 ?Why do you ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.?

18 ?Which ones?? he inquired.

Jesus replied, ??You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,?[c] and ?love your neighbor as yourself.?[d]?

Jesus basically replies, "Why are you asking me for a cheat code?  Salvation is through God, not through some task you do.  Just try to be a good person."


20 ?All these I have kept,? the young man said. ?What do I still lack??
The guy doesn't appear to get what Jesus is saying.  He persists in the idea that he can earn salvation; that once he has found the magic thing he lacks he'll get there.  Note that, unlike Jesus, this man never mentions God.  He wants this to be all him.


21 Jesus answered, ?If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.?
Note the bold text.  No human is perfect, which is exactly what Jesus is trying to tell this guy.  Given that Jesus often displays the ability to know others' inner desires and flaws, it's even possible that he's holding a mirror on what he knows to be the guy's biggest flaw, underscoring the point that nobody's perfect.  Through this response Jesus is basically telling him, "You're not perfect."


22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, ?Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.?

Here's where it starts to come together.  The guy was really asking Jesus how he could buy his way into Heaven, and Jesus tells him it doesn't work that way.  Instead, as Jesus told him in verse 17, salvation is through God.  The guy leaves sad because that wasn't what he wanted to hear.

Jesus reiterates to his disciples, "Rich people might be able to buy anything on Earth, but you can't buy your way to salvation.  In fact, it's harder for them because they think they can buy their way in rather than listen to what God's actually saying."


25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ?Who then can be saved??

26 Jesus looked at them and said, ?With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.?

Here's where Jesus hammers his point home.  As he hinted in verse 17, salvation isn't something you buy or earn.  It's something that you get through God.  This is covered in the "Other Did" section from the post I linked you to in Reply #4.


27 Peter answered him, ?We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us??

28 Jesus said to them, ?Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Note everything here is in present perfect tense, which means Jesus and the disciples are talking about something that already happened that had present consequences.

Peter and the other disciples left their lives to follow Jesus not for a reward (like the rich man was trying to earn), but because they had faith in Him, and because of this He will elevate them to a special place.  He goes onto say that anyone who has done such things for Him will be rewarded, but that those who are concerned with the Earthly concept of buying or earning their status may be in for a surprise.


So you see, nowhere in this text does Jesus say that a Christian living today must sell all of their Earthly possessions.  He never says that we must meet the "perfect" criteria he gave to that specific guy.  In fact, He is saying the exact opposite.  He is saying that we must turn to God and try to be good people, and that through God we will be saved.  If that faith in God leads us to eventually live a life of poverty, then we will be rewarded for it.  However, if we treat it as an entry fee to get to the Heaven Club, then we're completely missing the point, just like the rich guy.

So what you're claiming Christians should do is precisely what Jesus said not to do.




3) It looks like the catholic "club" could be more important than the word of God:

Matthew 6:7
Jesus is distinguishing those who pray for show vs. those who pray to pray.  The former make a public show of their praying and babble to sound more holy.  The Catholic Church does not do this.  Our group prayer is communal prayer, which is a union of believers.  Jesus uses communal prayer frequently in the Bible, and it's not the same thing as a showy public prayer.  Likewise, Catholic prayers do not use "vain repetitions;" quite the contrary, repetitions in Catholic prayer are a formal way of expressing sentiment and meaning.  Jesus condemns those who say the same thing without saying anything, which is different than saying the same thing to say something.  Lastly, Jesus gives an example prayer in verses 9-13, which is said at every Catholic Mass.


Matthew 23:9
Yet another quote mine.  This verse is part of a much larger chapter (39 verses) where Jesus condemns the practice of his contemporary pharisees.  Specifically, these pharisees used their position of authority ("in Moses' seat" - verse 2) to give themselves special privileges at the expense of everyone else (verses 4-7).  Jesus condemns this practice, and tells his followers to reject the temptation to demand special treatment and instead aim to be servants.

Catholic priests follow in this tradition in that they seek to be servants of God.  While at times the Catholic Church has fallen into some of those same temptations (especially in the Middle Ages), its overall intent is for priests to be in service of God and their communities.  Thus, this verse is not a condemnation of all priests, but of a certain attitude among priests, and serves as a reminder to Catholic priests of their true intended role.
Further Reading




5) Jesus said you should follow him even at the cost of your life or else you'll go to hell:

Matthew 10:28, 37-39
He says not to fear those who threaten physical death, and that people should put Him first.  Not quite the same as #5.

Matthew 16: 21-26
Jesus says that when it comes down to choosing between losing one's life or losing one's soul, one should save their soul.  That's not quite the same as #5.

Matthew 18:9
He's calling people out for excuses to sin.  Not quite the same as #5.




6) Jesus wants you to go and spread his word:
He certainly does!  Christians should offer the word of God freely.




7) Jesus says everyone is an atheist and everyone is going to hell:

Mark 16.16-18
Jesus is speaking about the supernatural abilities the Apostles were given on Pentecost that allowed them to work these miracles.  In the original Greek "them that believe" refers to the Eleven in verse 14.
Further Reading




Your position on the Bible seems to be ill-informed and frequently quote mines to make verses say something other than what they actually mean.  Did you compile this list yourself by picking these verses out as you were reading the Bible, or did you just copy these verses off another source without bothering to read the context in which they appear?
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Mooby the Golden Sock

#13
3) The Attachment

Whenever you are told you can go to heaven and enjoy eternal life near God and his angels and forget about sadness, suffering, misery and all that stuff? you should just try to be there as soon as possible
This is found nowhere in Scripture or in Catholic Tradition.  Is this your personal opinion, as an atheist?  You know, like the guy without a license sitting in the passenger seat of the car saying, "Whenever you see a cop, you can just floor it and outrun them!"  Are you trying to be the back seat driver of Christianity?

Basically, Jesus tells you should not be afraid of men or death, so you can just buy a ticket to an Islamic country and preach the gospel, waiting for God?s will on your life.
Yes, I certainly could.  But that doesn't mean I must.

If you die, you die as a martyr, in the name of Jesus and you?ll go to heaven, you won?t have to life years in this defective world? and if you don?t get killed, you?ll probably save some souls, which should be great, given the fact that you love everyone as if each person were yourself.
The point of Christianity is not to try to get out of living "in this defective world."  We believe this world is a gift from God, and life is a gift from God, that we only get to live it once.  Thus, we should be stewards of life, stewards of the Gospel, stewards of humanity, and stewards of all creation.  This is a point reiterated numerous times in the Epistles, especially the Pauline ones.

Now this is the final argument? I am an angel
No you're not.

you are supporting a criminal organization well known for hiding child molesters, and you are okay with it
Pretty much every organization involved with children has hidden child molesters at some point:
- Public schools
- Boy scouts
- Religious orders (not just Catholicism or Christianity)
- Coaches
- Media networks (Elmo?)
- Etc.

The ones that sell with the media are not the only ones guilty.  Child molestation is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, but its existence does not automatically invalidate the aims of any organization in which it occurs and is handled poorly.

I still support the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts for the good they do, despite having child molester issues.  My girlfriend still supports Penn State, despite the Sandusky scandal.  If we were required to distance ourselves every time someone did something stupid, I'd have given up on humanity as a whole long ago.

What does the fact that the Catholic Church having had pedophiles have anything at all to do with whether Catholics believe in God vs. them being secret atheists?  It seems to me that those who were just pretending to have faith would have jumped ship at the first sign that what you call "comfortable" was about to become "uncomfortable."  Therefore, I would conclude that the Catholics who stayed were not doing so out of comfort but rather out of genuine faith.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AM
I'm going to reply to this with three posts in argument order, with the Bible verses included under #2.

1) The bible:

Your analogy is a bit short-sighted.  As I mentioned in my first reply to you, the Bible isn't structured in the same way as a story or a diary.  It's not a single book intended to be read beginning to end.

No book is intended to anything. That's up to the reader.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMThe Bible is much closer to an anthology or collection of books under 1 title.  The Catholic Bible contains 73 books written over 1000-1500 years in 3 different languages by multiple different authors in over 10 different genres.

I think everyone in the forum should know this already, also... it doesn't change anything. Yesterday the bible was pergamines, today it is one book. There are "books" of one or two sheets in the bible and I don't think that can be called a book, eitherway it doesn't matter; that's entirely subjective... let me remind you that there are lots of people who finished The Lord of the Rings books or Harry Potter's saga, those are more than one book and none of them have the weight of the bible regarding the ultimate fate of the soul. ||Kerly||

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMA story has 1 author, 1 genre, 1 story, and 1 narrative.  A diary has 1 author, 1 genre (usually), multiple stories, and 1 narrative.  The Bible has multiple authors, multiple genres, many stories, and interweaving narratives.  As I mentioned to you before, this narrative style causes stories to repeat and blend into each other, sometimes with 3-4 versions of the same story appearing in different places, sometimes with more than 1 story describing the same thing, and sometimes with 2 or more stories intertwined into 1 story.

A story doesn't need to have one anything and there are many books written by more than one author, which doesn't matter either. What are you trying to say? the bible is hard to read because it have myth? it's not. Because it have poetry? it doesn't rhyme and it's not. Because different narrative styles? please, you seem to be trying to argue a difficulty where there is none. I've seen far more difficult books than the bible, perhaps you mean boring?

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMSince you focus a lot on Jesus in your second post, per catholic-resources.org the 4 Gospels about Jesus compose approximately:
- 5% of the books
- 7% of the chapters
- 11% of the verses

What does this have to do with anything? It's the word of God. That's why I quoted him.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMTo revisit your "daughter's story" analogy, this is closer to the entire school contributing pieces of literature of their choosing to one large school release, with the daughter including a story of her and her family.  Other students contributed stories, songs, fiction, nonfiction, plays, letters, copy/pastes from the Internet, and one kid just copied pages from the phone book.

Are you trying to ridicule the bible? Also, the example of the daughter was about the LOVE and INTEREST you should feel for the author (God). I want to believe this was an honest mistake rather than an intentional attempt to weaken my argument with "nothing"? Because you cannot really compare the work of a daughter to the inspiration God gave to men over centuries to write exactly what he wanted to be writen, or you're saying God trusted the wrong persons, thus... making a mistake, or perhaps you think God wanted the bible to be a boring book, subject to your discouraging description.

Also, you just said there are LIES in the bible, thus making God a lier.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMIn this case, it's pretty much mandatory for the father to read the daughter's story, but the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time.

So you think a person needs infinite time to read the bible? So God made it impossible to read for a man? Interesting... your arguments seem desperate, "the rest is pretty optional" sounds to me like God inspired some parts as mandatory and some others as "meh", or maybe men are the ones to be blamed for all the "meh" parts and God is the responsible for all the cool ones?

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMHe could choose to read some of the poems or stories that interest him, and he could keep the book on hand so he could thumb through the appropriate section the next time he plans to meet one of the other kids' parents.  He'll probably never get around to reading the phone book pages, unless he has some reason to read the entire thing cover to cover and wants to brag he got to 100%.

So God made the bible in a way that those who actually read it all, are sinners? Actually, I know SO MANY people who haven't even read one gospel you'll be blowed (or not).

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 01:57:42 AMAs I told you before, "I think it becomes quite clear that the Bible's format encourages readers to jump around a lot, read areas that overlap thematically, and use it more as a spiritual reference than as a novel to be read cover-to-cover."

So, I could say you're saying God deliberately did something awful... really awful and actually evil by casting men away from knowing him and condemning those who finish the book (bragging = pride), but I will step aside and give you the chance to explain this:
- Why would God intentionally inspire men to write such of a long, copy-pasted, incongruent, mythological book?
- Why would he include poetry, knowing that it wouldn't rhyme in other languages (because of his own faulth according to the HISTORY of Babel), thus causing a very large part of it to lose a lot of its power for the majority in the world?
- Why would he inspire the writing of insane laws he knew he was going to dismiss at the end? To embarace himself? ||grin||
- Why would he let us see how he contradicts himself so much after comming to earth in flesh? To show his sense of humor?
- Why would he confuse those whom he inspired, making them waste his time, instead of giving them something worth it?
- Why would he LIE lie a sick person on his own inspired book?
- Why would he show himself like the most evil creature even conceived in his own inspired book?
- Why would he inspire so many people to make that trash, when just ONE person have been able to write better (Cervantes, Shakespeare, Homer), to look retarded? I mean... his inspired word should be the most incredible piece of text ever written, right?

I'm just trying to understand what you wrote.

Augusto

#15
Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM
2) The Teachings:

1) You cannot do whatever you want and expect to go to heaven:

I agree in general that Jesus is saying that Heaven isn't unconditional.

You agree now, thankfully. ||smiley||

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM2) Jesus wants you to give everything to the poor and follow him:
I already debunked this in Reply #4.  But since you just ignored that, I'll go more in depth:

In Reply #4 you just linked me to a catholic preach and I found it unbearable. I do not need to read what you remember of a preach not based in the bible, eitherway... I'll answer now:
- Your religion encourages you (you as to "christians" in general, as usual) to follow the example of Jesus.
- The bible encourages you to follow the example of Jesus (see, for example, the letters of Paul).
- Jesus left his family and everything he had (the son of men have no place to lay his head).
- Jesus came to give his example to HUMANITY as you can see, there's no way around (Matthew 7.26-27; John 12.48-49).

Check this versicle again:

Matthew 28.19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Now, Jesus did ask his disciples to leave everything and everyone and follow him, and since he asked his disciples to teach others to do everything he taught and commanded them, that means you should follow the example, not only of Jesus, but also of his obeying disciples.

Again: What was said to the disciples was for all christians + What Jesus did was an example for all christians. You should know this... right?



Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM27 Peter answered him, ?We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us??

28 Jesus said to them, ?Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Note everything here is in present perfect tense, which means Jesus and the disciples are talking about something that already happened that had present consequences.

Peter and the other disciples left their lives to follow Jesus not for a reward (like the rich man was trying to earn), but because they had faith in Him, and because of this He will elevate them to a special place.  He goes onto say that anyone who has done such things for Him will be rewarded, but that those who are concerned with the Earthly concept of buying or earning their status may be in for a surprise.

So you see, nowhere in this text does Jesus say that a Christian living today must sell all of their Earthly possessions.  He never says that we must meet the "perfect" criteria he gave to that specific guy.  In fact, He is saying the exact opposite.  He is saying that we must turn to God and try to be good people, and that through God we will be saved.  If that faith in God leads us to eventually live a life of poverty, then we will be rewarded for it.  However, if we treat it as an entry fee to get to the Heaven Club, then we're completely missing the point, just like the rich guy.

So what you're claiming Christians should do is precisely what Jesus said not to do.

Actually, Jesus told his disciples to sell everything they had and give it to the poor (Luke 12.33); and since he and his disciples did it, if you're a christian, you have to do it... unless you want to challenge Jesus (John 12.48-49) and prove you're either a satanist or an atheist... it's up to you.


Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM3) It looks like the catholic "club" could be more important than the word of God:

Matthew 6:7
Jesus is distinguishing those who pray for show vs. those who pray to pray.  The former make a public show of their praying and babble to sound more holy.  The Catholic Church does not do this.  Our group prayer is communal prayer, which is a union of believers.  Jesus uses communal prayer frequently in the Bible, and it's not the same thing as a showy public prayer.  Likewise, Catholic prayers do not use "vain repetitions;" quite the contrary, repetitions in Catholic prayer are a formal way of expressing sentiment and meaning.  Jesus condemns those who say the same thing without saying anything, which is different than saying the same thing to say something.  Lastly, Jesus gives an example prayer in verses 9-13, which is said at every Catholic Mass.


Matthew 23:9
Yet another quote mine.  This verse is part of a much larger chapter (39 verses) where Jesus condemns the practice of his contemporary pharisees.  Specifically, these pharisees used their position of authority ("in Moses' seat" - verse 2) to give themselves special privileges at the expense of everyone else (verses 4-7).  Jesus condemns this practice, and tells his followers to reject the temptation to demand special treatment and instead aim to be servants.

Catholic priests follow in this tradition in that they seek to be servants of God.  While at times the Catholic Church has fallen into some of those same temptations (especially in the Middle Ages), its overall intent is for priests to be in service of God and their communities.  Thus, this verse is not a condemnation of all priests, but of a certain attitude among priests, and serves as a reminder to Catholic priests of their true intended role.
Further Reading

Are you trying to tell me the catholic church does follow the teachings of the bible? ||Kerly||

First, they DO use vain repetitions, just don't say the opposite, that's just too dishonest for me to reply.

Second, calling a priest "father" is the way of catholics and the pope is the "holy father" so you even go further than what Jesus ever imagined.

Do you know what's one of the 10 commandments?

Exodus 20.4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

If Satan were real, the catholic curch would be his church, for it is pure evil and the responsible for so many crimes against humanity and genocides I cannot even believe it still exists in 21 century. It is shameful to me as a human being and I will not discuss on the evilness of that institution... seriously, I have some morality and I don't need to do it to prove my point.

- Matthew 7.21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- Matthew 15.3 "But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"
- Mark 7.9 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."


Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM5) Jesus said you should follow him even at the cost of your life or else you'll go to hell:

Matthew 10:28, 37-39
He says not to fear those who threaten physical death, and that people should put Him first.  Not quite the same as #5.

Matthew 16: 21-26
Jesus says that when it comes down to choosing between losing one's life or losing one's soul, one should save their soul.  That's not quite the same as #5.

Matthew 18:9
He's calling people out for excuses to sin.  Not quite the same as #5.

Now this is funny... just tell me, what is the destiny of those who doesn't follow God/Jesus? Last time I saw it was hell.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM6) Jesus wants you to go and spread his word:
He certainly does!  Christians should offer the word of God freely.

Is not an institutional request, it's an individual request... which is widely ignored by christians. Remember we're not discussing Jesus, that's an argument in the discussion about theism being hypocritical atheism. So thanks for accepting most "christians" ignore the word of Jesus.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AM7) Jesus says everyone is an atheist and everyone is going to hell:

Mark 16.16-18
Jesus is speaking about the supernatural abilities the Apostles were given on Pentecost that allowed them to work these miracles.  In the original Greek "them that believe" refers to the Eleven in verse 14.
Further Reading

Anyone that can read can see the huge efford that argument requires in order to be acceptable and the absolute lack of support it have (it doesn't show the original language and how it can be understood, it just estates something on a dark way). That's so invalid it even admits the "alternative" translation destroys the meaning of the sentence, not to mention that's not a prophecy (as it attempts to be shown) because no disciple of christ took up a snake.

What Jesus said is that you'll get superpowers if you believe in him, he was drunked probably... to much water into wine I guess, but now you gotta deal with the fact that Jesus said you're an atheist.


Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 03:48:00 AMYour position on the Bible seems to be ill-informed and frequently quote mines to make verses say something other than what they actually mean.  Did you compile this list yourself by picking these verses out as you were reading the Bible, or did you just copy these verses off another source without bothering to read the context in which they appear?

I did that compilation myself, and I can add more and more information from the bible; I happen to be one of those atheists who finished the whole bible, and I've read it over and over. By the other hand, I think you're the one who attempted to distort the arguments from the bible at your convenience, as I pointed more than once in this reply.

No dirty play from my side Mooby, my moral won't let me try to win by cheating. ||tip hat||

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 04:02:15 AM
3) The Attachment

Whenever you are told you can go to heaven and enjoy eternal life near God and his angels and forget about sadness, suffering, misery and all that stuff? you should just try to be there as soon as possible
This is found nowhere in Scripture or in Catholic Tradition.  Is this your personal opinion, as an atheist?  You know, like the guy without a license sitting in the passenger seat of the car saying, "Whenever you see a cop, you can just floor it and outrun them!"  Are you trying to be the back seat driver of Christianity?

I was just repeating what Jesus said... you know, what the bible says... that we should not love this world because it have been given to the devil, that we should seek first the celestial things, that we should deny ourselves...

Also I was thinking logically, if you should not worry about losing your life, christians should basically be an army of preachers worldwide, and preaching in dangerous places should be something extremely common. Jesus and the disciples gave us the example, and christians should follow it. Paul himself said:

2 Timothy 2.3-7 "Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

What would Saint Paul would say of the average christian? I think he would agree with me, after all, the only thing that kept him on this world, even when he was tired and wanted to go to heaven was the love he felt for others. Now I admire him but that doesn't change the fact that today "christians" are actually afraid of dying and totally into the business of being very materialistic and selfish and... you know... not really showing any interest in heaven.

See, not even criminals in jail or homeless people... not anyone wants to die to go to heaven, if anything, some people want to die to avoid their problems whenever they're depressed. Do you know what the reason of this theory of mine is? The number of religious graveyards... the number of sold bibles... the dificulty to identify an atheist amongst so many "theists".

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 04:02:15 AMBasically, Jesus tells you should not be afraid of men or death, so you can just buy a ticket to an Islamic country and preach the gospel, waiting for God?s will on your life.
Yes, I certainly could.  But that doesn't mean I must.

Yeap... after all, it's just the little door Jesus was talking about... it's just the example of Jesus and his disciples... just something crazy in the bible, you know... the will of God.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 04:02:15 AMIf you die, you die as a martyr, in the name of Jesus and you?ll go to heaven, you won?t have to life years in this defective world? and if you don?t get killed, you?ll probably save some souls, which should be great, given the fact that you love everyone as if each person were yourself.
The point of Christianity is not to try to get out of living "in this defective world."  We believe this world is a gift from God, and life is a gift from God, that we only get to live it once.  Thus, we should be stewards of life, stewards of the Gospel, stewards of humanity, and stewards of all creation.  This is a point reiterated numerous times in the Epistles, especially the Pauline ones.

So now you're telling me you have faith in this world, now your faith is telling you this is a beautiful place and you should live in it as much as you can... and enjoy it... wow, I missed those epistles. Last time I saw we were here to prove ourselves to the lord. Your religious system never cesases to amaze me: You don't need to read the bible or do any sacrifice... just enjoy your membership to the religion and later on, enjoy heaven.

I don't know why I am an atheist... ||huh|| oh right, because I don't lie to myself.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on November 29, 2012, 04:02:15 AMyou are supporting a criminal organization well known for hiding child molesters, and you are okay with it
Pretty much every organization involved with children has hidden child molesters at some point:
- Public schools
- Boy scouts
- Religious orders (not just Catholicism or Christianity)
- Coaches
- Media networks (Elmo?)
- Etc.

The ones that sell with the media are not the only ones guilty.  Child molestation is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, but its existence does not automatically invalidate the aims of any organization in which it occurs and is handled poorly.

I still support the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts for the good they do, despite having child molester issues.  My girlfriend still supports Penn State, despite the Sandusky scandal.  If we were required to distance ourselves every time someone did something stupid, I'd have given up on humanity as a whole long ago.

What does the fact that the Catholic Church having had pedophiles have anything at all to do with whether Catholics believe in God vs. them being secret atheists?  It seems to me that those who were just pretending to have faith would have jumped ship at the first sign that what you call "comfortable" was about to become "uncomfortable."  Therefore, I would conclude that the Catholics who stayed were not doing so out of comfort but rather out of genuine faith.

So, the catholic church just did something stupid... right... well, that's something we don't need to debate right now.

Mooby the Golden Sock

Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 11:00:40 AMlet me remind you that there are lots of people who finished The Lord of the Rings books or Harry Potter's saga, those are more than one book and none of them have the weight of the bible regarding the ultimate fate of the soul. ||Kerly||
First off, The Lord of the Rings was written as one story (it was divided into three by the publisher.)  Harry Potter is, as you mentioned, a saga: it was a collection of stories written as 1 narrative from Day 1, with the entire story arc planned out beforehand.  It was also all of 1 genre.

Those two series are nothing like the Bible.

QuoteA story doesn't need to have one anything and there are many books written by more than one author, which doesn't matter either. What are you trying to say? the bible is hard to read because it have myth? it's not. Because it have poetry? it doesn't rhyme and it's not. Because different narrative styles? please, you seem to be trying to argue a difficulty where there is none. I've seen far more difficult books than the bible, perhaps you mean boring?
I never said it was hard to read.  I said that it's not structured like a novel (or series of novels.)  It's structured as a reference, it's mostly used by Christians as a reference, and it's even quoted as a reference.  References generally aren't read in numerical page order.  How difficult is this to understand?

The Bible is not a novel.  The Bible is not a series of novels.  While there are parts that have narrative flow, it's not carried through the entire text and the shifting styles and genres encourage the reader it in sections rather than the entire text.  Structure-wise, the Bible is closer to a chronological encyclopedia of Christianity than it is to a novel.

QuoteWhat does this have to do with anything? It's the word of God. That's why I quoted him.
It has to do with everything.  The Gospel is the central message of Christianity, and it's only a fraction of the Bible.

QuoteAlso, you just said there are LIES in the bible, thus making God a lier.
No I didn't.


QuoteSo you think a person needs infinite time to read the bible? So God made it impossible to read for a man?
Nope

QuoteInteresting... your arguments seem desperate, "the rest is pretty optional" sounds to me like God inspired some parts as mandatory and some others as "meh", or maybe men are the ones to be blamed for all the "meh" parts and God is the responsible for all the cool ones?
Where are you getting these concepts of "cool" and "boring?"  I have not introduced these concepts.  Are you projecting your own feelings toward the Bible onto my belief?

QuoteSo God made the bible in a way that those who actually read it all, are sinners?
No?

QuoteActually, I know SO MANY people who haven't even read one gospel you'll be blowed (or not).
The Catholic Church goes through the Gospels on a 3 year rotation, so even those who never read the Bible on their own but go to Mass regularly are going to have gone through the Gospels multiple times in their lifetimes.

Quote- Why would God intentionally inspire men to write such of a long, copy-pasted, incongruent, mythological book?
It's long because it's a 1500+ year long anthology, it's not copy-pasted, it's not incongruent, and it's not completely myth.

Quote- Why would he include poetry, knowing that it wouldn't rhyme in other languages (because of his own faulth according to the HISTORY of Babel), thus causing a very large part of it to lose a lot of its power for the majority in the world?
What makes you think poetry has to rhyme?  Go read the poetry thread.

The poetic language of many areas shines through in spite of the translation.  Genesis 1 immediately springs to mind as a beautiful poetic narrative, which even managed to preserve its pacing through translation.

Quote- Why would he inspire the writing of insane laws he knew he was going to dismiss at the end? To embarace himself? ||grin||
Part of the Bible was recording the laws of the ancient Jewish people.

Quote- Why would he let us see how he contradicts himself so much after comming to earth in flesh? To show his sense of humor?
How does he contradict Himself?

Quote- Why would he confuse those whom he inspired, making them waste his time, instead of giving them something worth it?
In what way did He confuse those whom He inspired?

Quote- Why would he LIE lie a sick person on his own inspired book?
?

Quote- Why would he show himself like the most evil creature even conceived in his own inspired book?
?

QuoteI mean... his inspired word should be the most incredible piece of text ever written, right?
I agree with you that it's the most incredible piece of text ever written.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Mooby the Golden Sock

#18
Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 12:37:33 PM
- Your religion encourages you (you as to "christians" in general, as usual) to follow the example of Jesus.
- The bible encourages you to follow the example of Jesus (see, for example, the letters of Paul).
- Jesus left his family and everything he had (the son of men have no place to lay his head).
- Jesus came to give his example to HUMANITY as you can see, there's no way around (Matthew 7.26-27; John 12.48-49).
Yes, Christianity encourages us to follow Jesus' example.  Matthew 7:26-27 encourages us to follow His preaching in Matthew 7, and John 12:48-49 encourages to follow His preaching in John.

No, following Jesus' example does not mean every Christian must be single, leave their families, walk around Jerusalem with 12 disciples, or die on a cross.

Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 12:37:33 PMMatthew 28.19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Now, Jesus did ask his disciples to leave everything and everyone and follow him, and since he asked his disciples to teach others to do everything he taught and commanded them, that means you should follow the example, not only of Jesus, but also of his obeying disciples.
Jesus did indeed call us to leave behind our old lives and follow Him.  Since we can no longer follow Him literally through small towns in the desert, we must instead leave behind godless lives of sin and materialism to aspire to a higher calling.

QuoteActually, Jesus told his disciples to sell everything they had and give it to the poor (Luke 12.33);
There is no English translation of that verse that says "sell everything."  It says to not be afraid to sell possessions and give to the poor (the verse is within a section about not fearing things), and so everyone who sells things or gives to charity without fear fulfills this.

QuoteAre you trying to tell me the catholic church does follow the teachings of the bible? ||Kerly||
No, I told you the exact opposite.

QuoteFirst, they DO use vain repetitions.
Evidence?

QuoteSecond, calling a priest "father" is the way of catholics and the pope is the "holy father" so you even go further than what Jesus ever imagined.
Nope, I debunked that by providing what the chapter actually says, and you have not countered that objection.  Therefore, the objection stands until you refute it.

QuoteDo you know what's one of the 10 commandments?

Exodus 20.4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
Yes, that verse is part of the 1st Commandment in the Catholic tradition.  Why do you mention it?

QuoteSo thanks for accepting most "christians" ignore the word of Jesus.
Where did I "accept" this?  Please don't make false claims about what I've said.

QuoteWhat Jesus said is that you'll get superpowers if you believe in him
No He didn't.

QuoteI did that compilation myself, and I can add more and more information from the bible; I happen to be one of those atheists who finished the whole bible, and I've read it over and over.
And you just happened to quote mine in the same way as a Marshall Brain video, and numerous other anti-Christian sites on the Internet, complete with all the same misinterpretations.  Got it.

QuoteBy the other hand, I think you're the one who attempted to distort the arguments from the bible at your convenience, as I pointed more than once in this reply.
You've completely ignored all of my explanations of the context in which your quote mines appear, which means you haven't even addressed such a thing.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Mooby the Golden Sock

Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 01:26:46 PMI was just repeating what Jesus said... you know, what the bible says... that we should not love this world because it have been given to the devil, that we should seek first the celestial things, that we should deny ourselves...
Where does it say this?  Scripture does not claim that Christians should be Manicheans.

QuoteAlso I was thinking logically, if you should not worry about losing your life, christians should basically be an army of preachers worldwide, and preaching in dangerous places should be something extremely common.
We shouldn't worry about losing our lives, if that's what we're called to do.  But nowhere in the Bible does it state that taking unnecessary risks, seeking to get ourselves killed, or being foolish is a virtue.

And plenty of Christians have preached in dangerous places.  See also: the history of Christianity.

QuoteSo now you're telling me you have faith in this world, now your faith is telling you this is a beautiful place and you should live in it as much as you can... and enjoy it... wow, I missed those epistles.
Try reading the first chapter of the Bible.

QuoteSo, the catholic church just did something stupid... right... well, that's something we don't need to debate right now.
Certain individuals in the Church did something stupid.

Are you of the mistaken assumption that the Bible is the only way to come to God?
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 11:00:40 AMlet me remind you that there are lots of people who finished The Lord of the Rings books or Harry Potter's saga, those are more than one book and none of them have the weight of the bible regarding the ultimate fate of the soul. ||Kerly||
First off, The Lord of the Rings was written as one story (it was divided into three by the publisher.)  Harry Potter is, as you mentioned, a saga: it was a collection of stories written as 1 narrative from Day 1, with the entire story arc planned out beforehand.  It was also all of 1 genre.

Those two series are nothing like the Bible.

No book is like another book, specially if it's from a different time and culture. For example, there is no book like The Illiad. There are compilations of poetry or compilations of short stories written by different authors; there are books of greek mithology, containing ancient myths written by different authors... compilations of classic literature and so on.

Eitherway, what does it matter if the bible is different? It's the inspired word of God and most people who claim to believe in him have no interest in reading it.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PMI never said it was hard to read.  I said that it's not structured like a novel (or series of novels.)  It's structured as a reference, it's mostly used by Christians as a reference, and it's even quoted as a reference.  References generally aren't read in numerical page order.  How difficult is this to understand?

Now this is getting funny. In order for you to claim the bible is structured as a reference book, you didn't have to say it had myths, cronology, poetry or anything like that... maybe you don't want to say it is divided in versicles because the numeration of chapters and versicles were ADDED recently? The bible was never intended to be used as a reference book because versicles does not even indicate the bible have been turned into a reference book, but rather a book meant to be studied in dept.

So I don't grant you anything, instead I'll ask you to:
1) Justify your several posts explaying what's inside the bible, because I find it irrelevant.
2) Justify your claim that the bible is meant to be used as a reference book.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
QuoteAlso, you just said there are LIES in the bible, thus making God a lier.
No I didn't.

You used the word "fiction" and "myth" while refering to the bible, now are you going to focus in the slight differences between those words and the word "lie"? Okay, don't even bother:
- Please explain why you said God is an inspirator of fiction and myths.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
QuoteSo you think a person needs infinite time to read the bible? So God made it impossible to read for a man?
Nope

Then why did you say "...but the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time."? It looks like you just cannot find anything to justify the indiference toward one book... the biggest best seller ever is the most ignored one at the same time. So it is a cult object, but not interesting enough to deserve being read, so it's not good enough, despite the promises it holds.

Now, it doesn't even look like it's really a sacred object, just by looking at the words you choose to reffer to it.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PMthis is closer to the entire school contributing pieces of literature of their choosing to one large school release, with the daughter including a story of her and her family.  Other students contributed stories, songs, fiction, nonfiction, plays, letters, copy/pastes from the Internet, and one kid just copied pages from the phone book."

You say it is a trashy book with many words, but you don't admit it.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
QuoteInteresting... your arguments seem desperate, "the rest is pretty optional" sounds to me like God inspired some parts as mandatory and some others as "meh", or maybe men are the ones to be blamed for all the "meh" parts and God is the responsible for all the cool ones?
Where are you getting these concepts of "cool" and "boring?"  I have not introduced these concepts.  Are you projecting your own feelings toward the Bible onto my belief?

Well, that's the idea I get from you when I read things like:

"As I mentioned to you before, this narrative style causes stories to repeat and blend into each other, sometimes with 3-4 versions of the same story appearing in different places, sometimes with more than 1 story describing the same thing, and sometimes with 2 or more stories intertwined into 1 story."

"...this is closer to the entire school contributing pieces of literature of their choosing to one large school release, with the daughter including a story of her and her family.  Other students contributed stories, songs, fiction, nonfiction, plays, letters, copy/pastes from the Internet, and one kid just copied pages from the phone book."

"...the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time.  He could choose to read some of the poems or stories that interest him."

So yeap, I do understand boring even when you have not used the word, and anyone else would understand the same.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
QuoteActually, I know SO MANY people who haven't even read one gospel you'll be blowed (or not).
The Catholic Church goes through the Gospels on a 3 year rotation, so even those who never read the Bible on their own but go to Mass regularly are going to have gone through the Gospels multiple times in their lifetimes.

You seem to be ignoring the big ammount of people who don't go to church, and the fact that this is not about finding out "what's in there" but about showing interest in knowing the word of God. Going to a church is a social practice.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
Quote- Why would God intentionally inspire men to write such of a long, copy-pasted, incongruent, mythological book?
It's long because it's a 1500+ year long anthology, it's not copy-pasted, it's not incongruent, and it's not completely myth.

Nice to know.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
Quote- Why would he include poetry, knowing that it wouldn't rhyme in other languages (because of his own faulth according to the HISTORY of Babel), thus causing a very large part of it to lose a lot of its power for the majority in the world?
What makes you think poetry has to rhyme?  Go read the poetry thread.

The rhyme is exclusive of the original language, so the rhyme was lost and the changes from one language to another causes losts in the richness of the meaning. I know this have happened in the bible and I can provide examples if you require them, even when anyone would know there is no discussion on this.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PMThe poetic language of many areas shines through in spite of the translation.  Genesis 1 immediately springs to mind as a beautiful poetic narrative, which even managed to preserve its pacing through translation.

Many other books lost, none gained. And according to the bible it is God's fault, but we're deviating from the subject.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
Quote- Why would he let us see how he contradicts himself so much after comming to earth in flesh? To show his sense of humor?
How does he contradict Himself?

I'll open a topic in religion to talk about contradictions in the bible just to avoid discussing non-related stuffs in here.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:12:05 PM
QuoteI mean... his inspired word should be the most incredible piece of text ever written, right?
I agree with you that it's the most incredible piece of text ever written.

You clearly don't because you haven't read it and because of the way you talk about it.

none

schwooh... I thought you were going to let armchair psychiatrist QM psychoanalyze you...
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 12:37:33 PM
- Your religion encourages you (you as to "christians" in general, as usual) to follow the example of Jesus.
- The bible encourages you to follow the example of Jesus (see, for example, the letters of Paul).
- Jesus left his family and everything he had (the son of men have no place to lay his head).
- Jesus came to give his example to HUMANITY as you can see, there's no way around (Matthew 7.26-27; John 12.48-49).
Yes, Christianity encourages us to follow Jesus' example.  Matthew 7:26-27 encourages us to follow His preaching in Matthew 7, and John 12:48-49 encourages to follow His preaching in John.

Very true... and no need to say it because I already did.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PMNo, following Jesus' example does not mean every Christian must be single, leave their families, walk around Jerusalem with 12 disciples, or die on a cross.

Now you need to support this.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 12:37:33 PMMatthew 28.19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Now, Jesus did ask his disciples to leave everything and everyone and follow him, and since he asked his disciples to teach others to do everything he taught and commanded them, that means you should follow the example, not only of Jesus, but also of his obeying disciples.
Jesus did indeed call us to leave behind our old lives and follow Him.  Since we can no longer follow Him literally through small towns in the desert, we must instead leave behind godless lives of sin and materialism to aspire to a higher calling.

Since you admited Jesus called you (you christians), there is nothing left to say... he is God, he is still around until the end of time according to the bible and you can follow his example, as he commanded you.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteActually, Jesus told his disciples to sell everything they had and give it to the poor (Luke 12.33);
There is no English translation of that verse that says "sell everything."  It says to not be afraid to sell possessions and give to the poor (the verse is within a section about not fearing things), and so everyone who sells things or gives to charity without fear fulfills this.

LMAO That's not what the apostles understood, as seen in the bible, and not to go too far... in the very link you provided, check "parallel commentaries":

"This was the condition of their being disciples. Their property they gave up; they forsook it, or they put it into common stock, for the sake of giving alms to the poor."

"it became them to sell their houses and lands, and whatever possessions they had, and relieve them; and so they did not long after; for some of those who sold their estates, and brought the money to the apostles"

Acts 4.34-37 "There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means Son of Encouragement), sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles? feet."


You know Peter was an apostle right? "The Peter" whom the vatican claim to be the first pope.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteAre you trying to tell me the catholic church does follow the teachings of the bible? ||Kerly||
No, I told you the exact opposite.

Cool, then why do you follow a religion that doesn't follow the inspired word of God?

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteFirst, they DO use vain repetitions.
Evidence?



Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteSecond, calling a priest "father" is the way of catholics and the pope is the "holy father" so you even go further than what Jesus ever imagined.
Nope, I debunked that by providing what the chapter actually says, and you have not countered that objection.  Therefore, the objection stands until you refute it.

That's a pretentious attempt to confuse people. Jesus forbided to call father anyone, period. Now you take what the vatican says as something more important than Jesus' word?: http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/pope-benedict-declares-pedophilia-was-n

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteDo you know what's one of the 10 commandments?

Exodus 20.4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
Yes, that verse is part of the 1st Commandment in the Catholic tradition.  Why do you mention it?

You know why. and my point is a catholic "theist" (just as any other religious adept) follows his religion, his social group, over Jesus, the Bible or God.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteSo thanks for accepting most "christians" ignore the word of Jesus.
Where did I "accept" this?  Please don't make false claims about what I've said.

So most christians go and spread the gospel? I though you admited this bit...

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PM
QuoteWhat Jesus said is that you'll get superpowers if you believe in him
No He didn't.

Is this your best? Now should I assume you give up? if not, you must face the following versicles until its final consecuences:

- Mark 16.16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
- Matthew 28.19-20 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Last time I saw, you were not able to armonize the "take up of serpents", so I think you just need to accept the versicle as it is, not to mention the examples and commandments of Jesus to his disciples, which were commanded by him to teach us to do the same.

none

you gave Mooby an inch and he took a mile, Mooby believes in a God.
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Augusto

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
Quote from: Augusto on November 29, 2012, 01:26:46 PMI was just repeating what Jesus said... you know, what the bible says... that we should not love this world because it have been given to the devil, that we should seek first the celestial things, that we should deny ourselves...
Where does it say this?  Scripture does not claim that Christians should be Manicheans.

Nobody said that. I already posted versicles in which you can see the consecuences of not obeying Jesus' words. Now you're rebelling? Well, then you're dismissing Jesus or you're challenging him because you already said salvation isn't unconditional.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
QuoteAlso I was thinking logically, if you should not worry about losing your life, christians should basically be an army of preachers worldwide, and preaching in dangerous places should be something extremely common.
We shouldn't worry about losing our lives, if that's what we're called to do.  But nowhere in the Bible does it state that taking unnecessary risks, seeking to get ourselves killed, or being foolish is a virtue.

It should be common sense if you believe in heaven and all the heavenly promisses. Christians should act like the deluded Paul, yet they act like atheists in every single way, even in the way you're facing this debate.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 10:14:12 PMAnd plenty of Christians have preached in dangerous places.  See also: the history of Christianity.

You mean an incredibly minimum ammount of people, even less than the suicidal rate, right?

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 10:14:12 PM
QuoteSo now you're telling me you have faith in this world, now your faith is telling you this is a beautiful place and you should live in it as much as you can... and enjoy it... wow, I missed those epistles.
Try reading the first chapter of the Bible.

I did, and it was hilarious, but once again, try reading the NT because we're debating christianity. Or are you trying to lose me in the branches? Jesus said we should NOT love this world, that we should pick up our crux, that we should deny ourselves and so on, and I already provided the versicles. Try to play as an honest debater. Admit your defeats.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 10:14:12 PMAre you of the mistaken assumption that the Bible is the only way to come to God?
Are you telling me you know of a way to come to God that is against the scriptures? if not, then I don't need to take into consideration anything else, specially when you're not offering anything else as an argument I should look at.

Mooby the Golden Sock

Quote from: Augusto on December 01, 2012, 11:11:17 PMNo book is like another book, specially if it's from a different time and culture.
Says the guy who started comparing the Bible to other books in his second reply.

QuoteEitherway, what does it matter if the bible is different? It's the inspired word of God and most people who claim to believe in him have no interest in reading it.
It matters because you're basing your entire first argument around the idea that the Bible should be read in a way that it's never been commonly read in its entire history.  Early writers such as Augustine quoted the Bible in a way showing he read it in sections, even Jesus himself quotes scriptures the way they're still quoted today, and there's historical evidence that rabbis frequently did this before that. 

While there are plenty of people who have read the Bible cover to cover, there's never been any sort of historical movement to do so, nor am I aware of any single Christian advocate of doing so.  Quite the contrary, the mere fact that there are "read the Bible in X months" tutorials that present verses out of page order suggests that reading the Bible cover to cover might not be the best way to read it.

So again, why is it relevant?  Because your entire first argument rests on your wild accusation that those who haven't read the Bible cover to cover are atheists.  I think you need to give some sort of explanation of why it should be even read that way in the first place before we can even discuss whether each individual Christian has the obligation to read it that way.

Quotemaybe you don't want to say it is divided in versicles because the numeration of chapters and versicles were ADDED recently? The bible was never intended to be used as a reference book because versicles does not even indicate the bible have been turned into a reference book, but rather a book meant to be studied in dept.
The chapters and verses were added so people could reference more easily.  Before that, people had to direct quote, as Jesus does numerous times in the Gospels.

Quote1) Justify your several posts explaying what's inside the bible, because I find it irrelevant.
2) Justify your claim that the bible is meant to be used as a reference book.
1) Not every verse in the Bible has the same spiritual meaning or purpose.  Some express historical growth of a nation, some are expressions of people's emotions towards God, some are purported to be direct quotes from Jesus, some are filler, etc.  Knowing what you're reading is essential to understanding what you're reading, and understanding what you're reading is essential to gaining insight from what you're reading, and gaining insight from what you're reading is essential to getting any spiritual truth out of the text.

If you're refusing to even look at what you're reading, you have no hope to get anything out of it.

2) a) Look how it's structured
b) Look how people actually read it
c) Look how religious groups use it
d) Look how it's quoted
e) Look at how it's not one contiguous story

QuoteYou used the word "fiction" and "myth" while refering to the bible, now are you going to focus in the slight differences between those words and the word "lie"? Okay, don't even bother:
- Please explain why you said God is an inspirator of fiction and myths.
I never said the Bible had fiction.  Please don't claim things about my posts that aren't true.

I said God inspires myths because I believe that God inspired the myths in the Bible.

Myths aren't lies, and myths aren't fiction.  Myth is its own genre.

QuoteThen why did you say "...but the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time."?
Because you missed the figurative language in my post for the same reason you tried to equate myths to lies above.  If you never think beyond a rigid, literal interpretation of everything you read, you're never going to get it.

QuoteYou say it is a trashy book with many words
No, I don't.  It may help to stop telling me what I'm saying and instead actually read what I'm saying.

QuoteWell, that's the idea I get from you when I read things like:

"As I mentioned to you before, this narrative style causes stories to repeat and blend into each other, sometimes with 3-4 versions of the same story appearing in different places, sometimes with more than 1 story describing the same thing, and sometimes with 2 or more stories intertwined into 1 story."
If you reread my posts, you'll see that that's always in reference to how the Bible is structured differently from a novel.  It is not included in any context that refers to how interesting the Bible is to read.

Quote mine.

Quote"...this is closer to the entire school contributing pieces of literature of their choosing to one large school release, with the daughter including a story of her and her family.  Other students contributed stories, songs, fiction, nonfiction, plays, letters, copy/pastes from the Internet, and one kid just copied pages from the phone book."

"...the rest is fairly optional, especially if the dad doesn't have infinite time.  He could choose to read some of the poems or stories that interest him."
Those are in reference to how the Bible contains many different stories and genres that may be more or less relevant to a person's needs at any given time.  It's not in any context of how interesting the Bible is to read.

QuoteYou seem to be ignoring the big ammount of people who don't go to church, and the fact that this is not about finding out "what's in there" but about showing interest in knowing the word of God. Going to a church is a social practice.
"Ignoring?"  Church attendance hasn't become relevant in this discussion.

What I said is that those who do go to Church will go through its entire rotation of Scripture readings every 3 years, which means that even someone who stops going to Church at age 15 will have heard the passages 5 times.  I never mentioned anything about those who don't, because that was not relevant to the point I was making.

QuoteThe rhyme is exclusive of the original language, so the rhyme was lost and the changes from one language to another causes losts in the richness of the meaning. I know this have happened in the bible and I can provide examples if you require them, even when anyone would know there is no discussion on this.
You're welcome to learn the original language if you want.  I personally find the poetry rich even with the translation.

Quoteyou haven't read it
False.

Quote from: Augusto on December 02, 2012, 12:15:43 AM
Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 01, 2012, 04:16:54 PMNo, following Jesus' example does not mean every Christian must be single, leave their families, walk around Jerusalem with 12 disciples, or die on a cross.

Now you need to support this.

Jesus did indeed call us to leave behind our old lives and follow Him.  Since we can no longer follow Him literally through small towns in the desert, we must instead leave behind godless lives of sin and materialism to aspire to a higher calling.

Since you admited Jesus called you (you christians), there is nothing left to say... he is God, he is still around until the end of time according to the bible and you can follow his example, as he commanded you.[/quote]
Since you admitted "there is nothing left to say," I can see that you have agreed to concede your arguments.  Oh, wait, I just remembered that we're both adults and are capable of reading the context of each other's posts without making intellectually dishonest claims about what the other person actually said.

Rather than insult your intelligence by explaining how the two quotes do not contract each other, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and invite you to examine each more closely.  The second is an expansion of the first.

QuoteLMAO That's not what the apostles understood, as seen in the bible, and not to go too far... in the very link you provided, check "parallel commentaries":
Which commentary, in particular, states that the verse means for all believers to "sell everything?"  The commentaries said that some people did sell estates, but it doesn't say everyone did, or that everyone must today.

QuoteYou know Peter was an apostle right? "The Peter" whom the vatican claim to be the first pope.
Yes...

QuoteCool, then why do you follow a religion that doesn't follow the inspired word of God?
Oh, I thought you said "doesn't" in your original quote.

Yes, the Catholic Church does follow the inspired word of God.

Quote[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-w62N4nc8E#]How To Pray the Rosary[/url]
The prayers of the rosary do not constitute a "vain repetition:"
"repetitions in Catholic prayer are a formal way of expressing sentiment and meaning.  Jesus condemns those who say the same thing without saying anything, which is different than saying the same thing to say something."

QuoteJesus forbided to call father anyone, period.
Ok, fine.  Here's what you've said:
- " I am not attacking theism"
- "my post was not a valid contribution to the topic"
- "this is a bad post"
- "just read the gospels"
- "We do not inherit sin"
- "Now I understand why catholics worship Mary"
Period.

QuoteYou know why. and my point is a catholic "theist" (just as any other religious adept) follows his religion, his social group, over Jesus, the Bible or God.
"You know why" is not an argument.  And Catholicism follows the Bible and God.

QuoteSo most christians go and spread the gospel? I though you admited this bit...
Of course most Christians spread the Gospel.

QuoteIs this your best? Now should I assume you give up?
In what universe is it valid to assume that pointing out the blatantly obvious is a sign that someone has given up?

QuoteLast time I saw, you were not able to armonize the "take up of serpents", so I think you just need to accept the versicle as it is, not to mention the examples and commandments of Jesus to his disciples, which were commanded by him to teach us to do the same.
When's the last time you saw me attempt to take up a serpent?

Jesus says in this acrophycal verse to His disciples that those signs will accompany "them" (not "those") who believe.  He does not say:
- That the signs will last forever
- That the signs will all be present in all believers
- That the signs will be available on demand

He just says the signs will exist in the immediate future.  And Matthew doesn't mention anything of that sort at all, most likely because the verse is acrophycal.

Quote from: Augusto on December 02, 2012, 12:39:50 AM
Nobody said that.
Manicheans were a sect that believed, "we should not love this world because it have been given to the devil, that we should seek first the celestial things, that we should deny ourselves."

QuoteI already posted versicles in which you can see the consecuences of not obeying Jesus' words. Now you're rebelling? Well, then you're dismissing Jesus or you're challenging him because you already said salvation isn't unconditional.
What does "the consequences of not obeying Jesus' words" have anything to do whether whether we should love the world or deny ourselves?  Your argument is not coherent from what I can see.

QuoteYou mean an incredibly minimum ammount of people, even less than the suicidal rate, right?
As I mentioned, Christians aren't called to be suicidal.  And no, I don't mean "an incredibly minimum," I mean some.

QuoteI did, and it was hilarious, but once again, try reading the NT because we're debating christianity. Or are you trying to lose me in the branches?
Genesis 1 is part of Christian scripture.

QuoteJesus said we should NOT love this world, that we should pick up our crux, that we should deny ourselves and so on, and I already provided the versicles.
In which one in particular did Jesus say we should not love the world?  I definitely remember the Gospels saying that God loves the world...

QuoteAre you telling me you know of a way to come to God that is against the scriptures? if not, then I don't need to take into consideration anything else, specially when you're not offering anything else as an argument I should look at.
Either-or fallacy much?

I'm telling you that reading a book is not the only way to come to God.  Christians were worshiping God for over 400 years before a standard Biblical canon become generally agreed upon, and over 1500 years before the modern canons were set in stone.  Many of the most influential writings (Augustine, Council of Jerusalem, Council of Nicea, etc.) happened before the Bible canon was determined, and 75% of Christian history occurred without a finalized canon.

Hell, early Christians appear in the Epistles, which means they were Christians before any of the New Testament was written (the Gospels were written down after most of the Epistles.)  So yeah, I'm saying that having read the entire Bible isn't necessary to believe in God, because if you actually look at history, Christianity came before the Bible.  Your argument is more backwards than the Words With Friends board game.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

This debate have been working in a way I would call "dishonest". There! I just said it.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMI disagree.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMI "admitted" nothing of the sort.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMNo I didn't.

Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMNope

You're acting like the judge on this debate, not even bothering in a lot of occations to argument anything.
Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMNo He didn't.

You've been doing this since ever, even quoting bits of my answers in order to avoid answering them.
Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AM
Quoteyou haven't read it

False.

You just twisted everything is in the bible and then blatantly throwed into my face this:
Quote from: Mooby the Golden Sock on December 02, 2012, 02:39:29 AMYes, the Catholic Church does follow the inspired word of God.

You know what? On a debate, both of us must offer arguments and none of us have the right to act as a judge of the evidence offered by the other, you can refute but you cannot sentence.

Please offer some argument at least that "theists" are actually different than agnostic or atheists. Because I've said:
- They do not show an special interest in reading the bible.
- They do not follow Jesus' orders or, in your case, twist them until there is NOTHING.
- They do show interest in remaining alive, like any atheist who doesn't believe in the afterlife.

Just because you say you're a christian, doesn't mean you really believe there is a God, specially if there is no indication whatsoever.
Just because you go to a church doesn't mean you have faith in God, specially if you twist the word of God to your interests.

Mooby the Golden Sock

Sorry for the delay; it's been a busy week.

Quote from: Augusto on December 02, 2012, 03:57:40 PMThis debate have been working in a way I would call "dishonest". There! I just said it.
The quotes you cited from me are mostly in response to claims you have made about my viewpoint.  In those instances, I felt your claims were misrepresentations and/or errors, and my responses reflect that.

When you make an argument that basically falls into the format:
"You say/think/do X, therefore Y"
and I feel X is false, my only recourse is to contest X.  I cannot address Y until we resolve X's validity, because it is derived from something I believe to be false.

I find it odd that you also quoted me when I disagreed with you and then wrote two paragraphs explaining why I disagreed.  My only interpretation of this is that you find it intellectually dishonest of me to disagree with you at all, which I find strange considering the entire premise of our debate is an issue on which we disagree.  Perhaps I am missing something here, or perhaps you were overzealous in your quoting.  Hopefully you will be able to make this more clear.

Also, I do not feel that I am acting as a judge.  From my perspective, I am defending the integrity of my own position against potential misunderstandings or misrepresentations.  In my view, the true judges are the participants in the Commentary thread, who I believe are savvy enough to tell the difference between a defensive contesting of a claim and the offensive advancement of a formal argument.

Lastly, I am on the defensive in general, as I am defending the more commonly accepted position that theists believe in God against the more novel position that no healthy theist can honestly believe in God.  Thus, while there may be times when I feel it is appropriate to advance an alternative argument to one of your arguments, there may also be times when I feel it is appropriate to contest the premises of your arguments without offering an alternative.  After all, I'm not so much trying to change minds as I'm trying to prevent them from being changed.

QuotePlease offer some argument at least that "theists" are actually different than agnostic or atheists. Because I've said:
- They do not show an special interest in reading the bible.
- They do not follow Jesus' orders or, in your case, twist them until there is NOTHING.
- They do show interest in remaining alive, like any atheist who doesn't believe in the afterlife.
Throughout my posts in this thread, I have offered alternative arguments to all of these.  Here is a short summary of each:

- Christians do indeed show a special interest in reading the Bible.  Your argument rests on the notion that Christians must read the Bible in a certain way (cover to cover) to prove that interest.  However, the structure of the Bible, the way it's been historically cited, and the way it's read at church services all suggest that the most appropriate way to read the Bible is the way it's most commonly used by American Christians (reference.)  Furthermore, the Bible itself has not been present in its current form throughout all of Christian history, yet there were Christians who professed faith during those centuries.  Thus, there is a lack of evidence to support that reading the Bible cover to cover is, ever has been, or ever will be necessary to show that one is a believing Christian.  Therefore, failure to read the Bible from cover to cover is not valid evidence of a lack of faith in God.

- Jesus spent most of the Gospels, particularly the synoptic Gospels, teaching through stories and examples.  Thus, when evaluating a quote from Jesus, we must look at its context to see whether it is a stand-alone statement or part of a much larger lesson.  If the latter is indeed true, then we should look to see what part the quote plays in setting up that lesson.  Failure to do so will lead to a shallow, erroneous misrepresentation of Jesus' teaching.  In particular, I feel that most of the scripture verses quoted by you make such an error, and that they mean something completely different when read contextually.  Thus, there is a lack of evidence that these are orders that Christians must follow.  Therefore, failure to follow the verses you cited is not valid evidence of a lack of faith in God.

- There is no evidence, scriptural or otherwise, that Christians are obligated to show a lack of interest in life or needlessly put themselves in danger.  On the contrary, the Bible (and Christianity in general) suggest that life is a precious gift from God that should be valued accordingly.  Therefore, showing interest in one's own life is not valid evidence of a lack of faith in God.

QuoteJust because you say you're a christian, doesn't mean you really believe there is a God, specially if there is no indication whatsoever.
Just because you go to a church doesn't mean you have faith in God, specially if you twist the word of God to your interests.
Saying one is a Christian does not mean one fails to believe in God, either.  Going to church does not mean one lacks faith in God, either.

Let me remind you of your central position:
"My point is that no theist can honestly believe in God if he or she is psychologically and emotionally healthy."

Therefore, my logical counter-position is that it's possible for at least one psychologically and emotionally healthy Christian to believe in God.

So it's not enough to simply say, "It's possible to go to Church and not believe in God."  You must logically go one step further and claim that absolutely no psychologically and healthy theists who go to Church believe in God, or otherwise refine your original premise to better reflect your intended position.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Augusto

I disagree.

I no longer want or have the time to continue with this debate. Right now I am satisfied with the results. Thanks!