New Etiquette to replace trolling rule.

[Admin HE]

OK folks, we are trying yet another approach ... this is the new Etiquette E2(b), which replaces the old one, and designed to address derailment and trolling. It has immediate effect, and if it works we might decide to keep it.

b) Stay on topic.  Members who post into another member's thread should respect the thread topic and post accordingly. Off Topic Posting (OTP) is defined as posting in an inflammatory and/or off topic manner. OTP posts should be reported by the thread owner and will be split from the thread at the thread owner's request if the OTP report is upheld. Other participants in the thread should PM the thread owner to request that he/she reports an OTP post rather than further disrupt the thread. Simple derailment may also be reported in this way.

[JadedPulse]

What if the owner of the thread doesn't have a problem with the off-topic/derailments--especially in the case of a more non-serious post? If someone PMs the thread owner because it's bothering them, but thread owner says--oh, it's fine, it's not bothering me--is that the end of it, or will mods step in?

[Maggie the Opinionated]

OK folks, we are trying yet another approach ... this is the new Etiquette E2(b), which replaces the old one, and designed to address derailment and trolling. It has immediate effect, and if it works we might decide to keep it.

Physician, heal thyself.

[kevin]

Oh holy cow there's a lobster on the loose! Holy cow it's on the loose!        Bring your butter and lemon just in case. Oh holy cow it's loose!!!!!!!!!!!

[TrisTennant]

Noooo. OTP is One True Pairing.

None/The Corner is my OTP.

[Airyaman]

This seems like an over reaction to one particular troll.

Seriously, can someone persuade this person to post his password?

[Happy Evolute]

What if the owner of the thread doesn't have a problem with the off-topic/derailments--especially in the case of a more non-serious post? If someone PMs the thread owner because it's bothering them, but thread owner says--oh, it's fine, it's not bothering me--is that the end of it, or will mods step in?

That would be the end of it. The moderators will only consider reports of OTP from the thread owner.

A couple of other things to note. Firstly that we have removed the term "troll" form the rule, "troll" no longer has any official meaning on this Forum. Secondly, that there is no penalty for OTP other than that your post might be shunted into a siding. This will only happen if the thread owner requests it AND the moderators agree that the post is OTP.

The previous "trolling" rules have proved unworkable in practice, so we are now trying something else.

[Airyaman]

I guess someone disliked my comment. I only have two people on ignore. Both of them are basically trolls, they rarely ever have anything of value to add to any thread they post in.

[FGOH]

This seems like an over reaction to one particular troll.

I can see how it may look that way but we have been grappling with the trolling rule for months behind the scenes.

[JadedPulse]

What if the owner of the thread doesn't have a problem with the off-topic/derailments--especially in the case of a more non-serious post? If someone PMs the thread owner because it's bothering them, but thread owner says--oh, it's fine, it's not bothering me--is that the end of it, or will mods step in?

That would be the end of it. The moderators will only consider reports of OTP from the thread owner.

A couple of other things to note. Firstly that we have removed the term "troll" form the rule, "troll" no longer has any official meaning on this Forum. Secondly, that there is no penalty for OTP other than that your post might be shunted into a siding. This will only happen if the thread owner requests it AND the moderators agree that the post is OTP.

The previous "trolling" rules have proved unworkable in practice, so we are now trying something else.

Okay, thanks. That's kind of what I had figured, but just wanted some actual clarification. Thanks! +1

[nateswift]

Good   luck with ducking responsibility......again.

[Happy Evolute]

If you want heavy moderation then go to WWGHA, nate.

[nateswift]

How do they handle insults

[Happy Evolute]

How do they handle insults

They would edit your post to put a question mark at the end. Do you want that?

[nateswift]

How do they handle insults

They would edit your post to put a question mark at the end. Do you want that?

Without consulting you giving you a chance to edit?

[jetson]

How do they handle insults

They would edit your post to put a question mark at the end. Do you want that?

Without consulting you giving you a chance to edit?

nateswift - you can handle the moderation over there.  I promise.

[Happy Evolute]

Don't listen to him nate!

[jetson]

Don't listen to him nate!

Don't walk towards the light!

[nateswift]

How do they handle insults

They would edit your post to put a question mark at the end. Do you want that?

Without consulting you giving you a chance to edit?

Well, perhaps realizing that trolling is as recognizable, reprehensible and correctible as insults would not be all that draconian?

[nateswift]

Interesting question that comes up in the "universal reconciliation" thread; what do you do when it is the OPO trolling his thread?

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Wait for the OP to report themselves for being off-topic, then evaluate the report accordingly.

[Maggie the Opinionated]

Why would the OP report himself for trolling?

[kevin]

is there an obligation for anybody to just ask the trolls to stop trolling?

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Why would the OP report himself for trolling?

Don't ask me.  It's nate's scenario.

is there an obligation for anybody to ask the trolls to stop?

No.

[Maggie the Opinionated]

is there an obligation for anybody to just ask the trolls to stop trolling?

Well the last sentence in HE's announcement says "Other participants in the thread should PM the thread owner to request that he/she reports an OTP post rather than further disrupt the thread. Simple derailment may also be reported in this way." HE failed to do this. He further disrupted the thread so that he could inform the thread owner (who actually started trolling his own thread) of his rights. So I reported them both for trolling. 

Let's see what happens.

[kevin]

so it works this way, then:

1) OP reports a post or posts for trolling.

2) staff decides whether the posts are trolling. if no, full stop. if yes, go to 3.

3) staff asks OP whether OP wants posts removed. if no, full stop. if yes, go to 4.

4) staff extracts posts and creates new thread for them.

seems like a lot of work. is this correct?

[nateswift]

Well, yes, but it avoids the responsibility of identifying and dealing with trolling.

[FGOH]

so it works this way, then:

1) OP reports a post or posts for trolling.

2) staff decides whether the posts are trolling. if no, full stop. if yes, go to 3.

3) staff asks OP whether OP wants posts removed. if no, full stop. if yes, go to 4.

4) staff extracts posts and creates new thread for them.

seems like a lot of work. is this correct?

No.

OP reports OTP posting.
Staff review report. If it is upheld offending posts are split out into new thread by staff.

If A N Other reports OTP posting, staff tell them to contact OP and ask OP to make a report. (At least initially. If this approach is adopted full time then at a certain point staff would probably not bother telling reporter to contact the OP and just dump the report as not being in line with the guideline)

No report by OP, no action taken.

[Maggie the Opinionated]

Well that is certainly a subtle way of telling me that my reports are going nowhere! 

[FGOH]

*giggle*

[nateswift]

So, as is the case with the Universal reconciliation thread where the OP makes a trolling comment, nothing is likely to be done as there is no effective means of countering it, and the general run of posters will just continue to wade through or scroll past the bulls**t with a sigh.

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

"Trolling" is not currently addressed by the rules, nate.  If the OP feels the thread is going off-topic, they can report off-topic posts so we can split them to a new thread.  If the OP is content to let the thread wander, then so are we.

If you feel that a thread has wandered off topic, and the OP doesn't seem interested in refocusing the discussion, then you are welcome to create a new thread that better addresses the topic of discussion.  This would make you the OP, and you'd have greater control over how closely the thread sticks to the topic at hand.

[nateswift]

Well, Mooby, the fact that trolling is NOT addressed by the rules is precisely my point, isn't it?

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

Nate, trolling has never been addressed by the rules, because we've never been able to define what trolling is.

[nateswift]

Getting people to agree that trolling is an identifiable problem and addressing the problem has always been the case.  Defining it is not a problem, getting people to recognize it is a problem.

[kevin]

i do not recognize off-topic posting as a problem. i do it all the time, as it is a standard feature of conversation, for me. i don't consider it trolling.

trolling, to me, is posting in an inflammatory, challenging, rude, or abusive manner, either consciously with the intent to shut down conversation, or unconciously but with that effect.

a troll is someone whose post consists of saying, "there's nothing of value in this thread. stop talking, because i'm bored by opening it and reading what it says."

[nateswift]

i do not recognize off-topic posting as a problem. i do it all the time, as it is a standard feature of conversation, for me. i don't consider it trolling.

trolling, to me, is posting in an inflammatory, challenging, rude, or abusive manner, either consciously with the intent to shut down conversation, or unconciously but with that effect.

a troll is someone whose post consists of saying, "there's nothing of value in this thread. stop talking, because i'm bored by opening it and reading what it says."

Close, but no cigar.  Trolling is all of that, but with the purpose of redirecting conversation to a topic the troller wishes to pursue, disregarding the topic under discussion.  That's why it is called "trolling," i.e. dragging bait in front of prey.

[jetson]

I think you nailed it nateswift.  It's not so much the off-topic aspect, but the purposeful baiting in an effort to redirect.

[kevin]

kevin says no.

but he's perfectly happy to accept the consensus.

[nateswift]

kevin says no.

but he's perfectly happy to accept the consensus.

Well, in that the troller is trying to shut down the current conversation in favor of his own topic, you get points.