nateswift,

[davdi]

On several different occasions you have mention the term Substitutionary Atonement in ways that i assumed you found the idea maybe not repulsive, but at least distasteful. 

This was the beginnings of Christian Liberalism

Schleiermacher developed a deep-rooted skepticism as a student, and soon he rejected orthodox Christianity.
Brian Gerrish, a scholar of the works of Schleiermacher writes:

In a letter to his father, Schleiermacher drops the mild hint that his teachers fail to deal with those widespread doubts that trouble so many young people of the present day. His father misses the hint. He has himself read some of the skeptical literature, he says, and can assure Schleiermacher that it is not worth wasting time on.

For six whole months there is no further word from his son. Then comes the bombshell. In a moving letter of 21 January 1787, Schleiermacher admits that the doubts alluded to are his own. His father has said that faith is the "regalia of the Godhead," that is, God's royal due.

Schleiermacher confessed: "Faith is the regalia of the Godhead, you say. Alas! dearest father, if you believe that without this faith no one can attain to salvation in the next world, nor to tranquility in this ? and such, I know, is your belief ? oh! then pray to God to grant it to me, for to me it is now lost. I cannot believe that he who called himself the Son of Man was the true, eternal God; I cannot believe that his death was a vicarious atonement."

This is where you will find the above quote.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Schleiermacher

I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

[Meat]

Must be the spelling. 

[davdi]

Must be the spelling. 

Must be.  Thanks Meat.

[nateswift]

Sorry, I'm Mexico , with limited time on the puter, and that little time limits my appreciation of the wonderful mornings here. Put this on hold, or look for the Atonement thread.

[kevin]

you didn't tell anybody you were going to mexico.

[Airyaman]

He didn't say he was going to Mexico, he said he is Mexico 

[nateswift]

I BE where I am.


Its ANOTHER beautiful morning

[Happy Evolute]

In that case, I am England.

[Jamestr]

I am America, and so can you. ¹

[Shawna]

I'm Planet Pisces.

What about Subsitutionary Atonement did you want to discuss?  That Schleiermacher didn't buy it?

Substitutionary Atonement is not the only metaphor for understanding the atonement, or even the earliest.

His papa should have told him that he didn't have to believe that version of the atonement, if he didn't want to.  When someone pays off your mortgage, it doesn't matter if you know whether they used a check or cash or a money order....  your mortgage is just paid off.

[davdi]

And Shawna enters into the Fracas.

I was actually curious as to what his feelings were about it.

But since you raised a different issue we could go into the Jewish notion of the Paschal Lamb, if you'd like.  Maybe we could get Daveed to enter the fray on this one [like my use of martial terms there, Shawna?].

And i'm sure we get into the meaning of taking up your cross to follow.  But let's just let that go back there at Midlothian.

[Shawna]

Actually, this is a debate thread.  I wonder if it would be better to start an open thread in the Scripture board about atonement?  If we all want to get a chance to talk?  Or do you think it would be ok to chat here until Nate stops being Mexico?

The Lamb's War is a good topic.

The Paschal Lamb is a tasty one.

[davdi]

You don't suppose he means this, do you:

Mexico?

Here is the authentic Info.:

" In "Nahuatl" (the language of the "Aztecs/Mexicas") it is the combination of three words:

1. Metx(tli) - 'moon'
2. xic(tli) - 'navel'
3. co - 'in'


This gives Mexico a meaning of "In the navel of the Moon".

Since the postions of the lakes, upon which Mexico City was founded, are shaped like a rabbit and correspond to the same pattern on the moon, thus:

Mexico = The Rabbit's Navel"

Source:

<>http://www.indians.org/welker/mexmain1.h?

Would it be safe to say that he is hiding out from the Gmen who want to bash his still, since he is "in the navel of the moon"?

[Shawna]

lol!

You have now forever changed the way I think about that country south of the U.S.  "In the navel of the moon" is an utterly beautiful name.

[davdi]

So nateswift now becomes TRN (The Rabbits Navel) and ...

Mooby, can ... well maybe Shawna can answer this one.  Would I be allowed to enter Shawna as a pinch hitter for nateswift and if he wants to join in by running the bases later, be allowed to reenter the fray?

[Shawna]

I have no problem with pinch-hitting for Nate.  Nate and I have only mildly different opinions of the atonement, I think.

[davdi]

Substitutionary Atonement, why would nateswift find that to be a difficult notion to accept?

[Shawna]

Why would it be an easy metaphor to accept?

Here's the thing.  The reality of what Christ did is what Christ did.  It happened.  Then people began to try to explain what happened, and they started using all sorts of metaphors to help people understand. 

Those metaphors are all necessarily not quite exactly what Christ did.  They are just explanatory shadows of the real thing.

In order to be comfortable with the metaphor of Substitutionary Atonement, a person has to be comfortable with the assumption that a debt has been accrued that must be paid through death and suffering.  That would put violence at the Heart of God.  It assumes that God must receive a payment in death in order to be able to reconcile us to One (my new pronoun for God).

Why should God require suffering and death in order to be reconciled to us?  Well, if a person thinks of God as a mere human being, that makes sense....  people mostly seem to need to avenge themselves somehow when they feel like they have been wronged.

But if God is Love, then there is no reason expect that One would need that sort of vengeance.... so the metaphor of Substitutionary Atonement doesn't seem entirely satisfactory, and other metaphors seem more in line with the nature of God.  The Moral Influence metaphor of the Atonement, or the Atonement as lived by Christ, the PeaceMaker, feel like they better explain the way God was working when Christ reconciled us to the Divine.

[davdi]

To my way of looking at it, the One is there. 

We are One's handiwork, the sheep of One's field.

I guess there isn't a way to avoid the notions of a "violent" One.  If you look at it from the aspect of Exodus, however, a different view comes about.  One's witnesses had wandered of the track and settled with a people who didn't know the One.  How was the One to get them out of there and back to where they belong.  When the One announced, through Moses, that the Pharaoh would decide the "next plague", the One had to distinguish between One's own and not One's own. 

Aside from the terrible misapplied and thoroughly wrong anthropomorphism above, the sign of the blood on the lintels and doorposts was to indicate that these people considered themselves to be of the One.  They could then leave to go home.  In that respect, the lamb bought them their freedom.  The price was paid for being Hebrew.

[nateswift]

Ok, basically, I find "Substitutionary Atonement" legalistic in form and distateful in implication.  I consider the actions of Jesus a demonstration of the inefficacy of law as a basis for judgement and an invalidation of it as any more than a necessary framework for civil intercourse. 

did you ever read Billy Budd, Sailor?

[davdi]

No!