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Leo Igwe, Nigerian Humanist, discusses religion and superstition in Africa

Started by Former Believer, April 01, 2012, 08:59:22 PM

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Argyle

You have our sympathies Leo. Looking at the situation in Nigeria makes me very glad to have been born into a secular republic, and I fear that unless secularism is adopted as a standard within the government in Nigeria there will continue to be bloodshed as the different religious factions fight to create their own theocracy at the detriment of all of the rest of the population. Unfortunately you do not have the benefit of a public largely romanticized by the idea of enlightenment ideals such as they were at the inception of America, and you do not all share a common foe, as the American colonies did toward the british. Had the American colonies been left unmolested by the british I fear our secular republic would never have been created.

Have you worked at all with AAI? (Atheist Alliance International)
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts,

Leo666

I served in the Board of Atheist Alliance International for a few years. But I am currently associated with AAI. As I noted in one of my posts, there is a need for a global approach. We run a greater risk as a world in this 21st century if we continue to see these problems as Nigerian or Algerian or Iraqi etc. These problems have transnational dimensions which we ignore at our own risk.http://news.yahoo.com/italian-british-hostages-killed-nigeria-raid-italy-govt-172936676.html For instance, Boko Haram in Nigeria is has international support not just in terms of arms but also ideologies. Many countries in the Middle East prefer funding Quranic indoctrination centers to building secular liberal education centers, they prefer rewarding those who run Madrassas schools to those who promote scientific, technological and critical thinking values. This is applicable to evangelical groups in Europe and America
They are not interested in the impact on the lives of the people. They just want to promote their religions at all costs. And this is sad. Do not get me wrong I am not against international support. But we need to ask, international support for what? In Gambia, an islamic charity is building a mosque in every public school in the country. So you go to a public school with no good classrooms, desks and learning material and you find a magnificent mosque. Think about it? What message do you send to students and youths in the country?In Swaziland, Malawi and other Southern African countries I saw islamic missionaries funded to convert Africans living on less than one dollar a day from one religion to another....I mean I can go on and on to point out the international dimension to the problem. Even though at the end of the day I put a greater part of the bulk on the door step of Africans themselves

Leo666

Somebody asked me what my plans were for the future. Simply put I want to spend the rest of my life waging the 'culture battle' A lot of damge is done in the name of religion, culture and tradition in Nigeria and Africa I plan to set up programs to shine light on this damage, if possible to undo the damage. On another hand I am interested in promoting critical, creative and positive thinking in Africa. Because I do not think the change we need in Africa will be achieved without changing the thinking pattern. I tell my African colleagues that there is nothing wrong with the color of our skin, the shape of our nose or the texture of our hairs but there is something wrong with the prevailing thinking pattern.

I know that changing people's mentality is and can be diffcult, it takes time it is risky but it is not impossible....

Former Believer

You know, Leo, I hadn't really given much thought as to what it meant to be a "humanist" until inviting you to visit this forum.  It's a term that I never used to describe myself, and to be honest with you, I think my brainwashing from my old Assembly of God days may have left a subconscious bias against the term imprinted within my psyche.  However, after reading the stories about you and by you online and seeing your responses in this thread, I think I am gaining a better appreciation as to what it means to be a humanist.

In my former days as a Pentecostal believer, a "secular humanist" was seen as evil.  Essentially, the idea was that being our own humanity was being worshipped and that god was being denied.  This was of course evil, because goodness and life and decency were derived from god.  What strikes me as ironic is that you, a man who embodies this "secular humanism" is the one who is demonstrating decency and honor because by stripping away god and religion out of morality and ethics, you have rid yourself of the dogma and superstition that harms human beings rather than uplifts them.   
Don't sacrifice your mind at the altar of belief

Former Believer

Don't sacrifice your mind at the altar of belief

Leo666

Sometimes I encounter people who tell me that- that humanists worship human beings Why? because they have been brainwhashed to think that one must worship something Sadly we must not. Some may choose to. We are free beings.
Now think about it Who are those worshipping the Popes and Bishops, the sheikhs, Ulamas and Imams, the Rabbis etc? Is it the humanists? Often I hear people say that scientists or atheists play god. If humanists play god, the popes and the Ayotollahs do what? Well friends sometimes I think this sounds petty because we have huge problems out there in urgent need of solution and attention. Diversity defines the way human beings are, believe, or act So we should strive to cooperate with each other. I prefer preoccupying myself with acquiring skills and competences to persuade people along the path of progressive change. I always want people to understand that if we make this world better, it is not for me alone, or for atheists alone or for theists alone as the case may be. It is for everybody

Maggie the Opinionated

I can't speak for what happens in Islam but no Catholic worships the pope or the bishops, nor do Jews worship their rabbis. Respect and worship are not the same thing. The pope does not play God, nor do rabbis.

No one has to brainwash humans to worship. That impulse is hardwired in us. The only question is what we should worship and how that worship should be expressed. Identifying the problem you are trying to solve correctly is, I think, an important first step.

Leo666

Part of the problem is that some people claim to be representing god, to be sent by god, or to be the mouthpiece of god -the alter christus(another christ). So their pronoucements and positions on issues of public importance are often taken or better revered as divine, as god's- infallible, unquestionable and absolute. For me I am interested in the consequences of positions individuals or groups take on human beings whether they decide to play god or spirits or humans.

maritime

Quote from: Leo666 on April 04, 2012, 08:22:11 AMI always want people to understand that if we make this world better, it is not for me alone, or for atheists alone or for theists alone as the case may be. It is for everybody

indigenous saying shared in Lynne Twist's The Soul of Money: If you are coming to help me, you are wasting your time, but if you are coming because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together.

I think it is devotion (rather than worship) to the vision of those purporting to represent god and/or god's thoughts, some wholeheartedly moving it along, others passively carried along. Question the vision, the (not so great) end of the means and those making up the requirements.

Maggie the Opinionated

Quote from: Leo666 on April 04, 2012, 02:04:45 PM
Part of the problem is that some people claim to be representing god, to be sent by god, or to be the mouthpiece of god -the alter christus(another christ). So their pronoucements and positions on issues of public importance are often taken or better revered as divine, as god's- infallible, unquestionable and absolute. For me I am interested in the consequences of positions individuals or groups take on human beings whether they decide to play god or spirits or humans.

So are the pronouncements of a charismatic secular humanist somehow less subject to being revered or unquestioned? When backed up by an army, or merely the force of law, are the secular humanists' positions less absolute?

Argyle

Quote from: Maggie the Opinionated on April 04, 2012, 03:45:24 PM
So are the pronouncements of a charismatic secular humanist somehow less subject to being revered or unquestioned? When backed up by an army, or merely the force of law, are the secular humanists' positions less absolute?

Yes because the religious leaders claim that their positions are unquestionable, and that to question them is quite often punishable. This is true even of the Catholic church which under the right circumstances will excommunicate those with whom it disagrees. Somehow they did not feel that Hitler warranted this however @_o .... I have yet to see a secular humanist claim such a thing, especially considering that it would be antithetical to secular humanism to take such a stance.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts,

Leo666

Maggie, did you read what I said very well I said "For me I am interested in the consequences of positions individuals or groups take on human beings whether they decide to play god or spirits or humans." So is the so called charismatic secular humanist not an individual? Of course he or she is and the position can be questioned. I came to this position not because I want to discredit the theistic position. Not at all but in the course of trying to find out why human beings have been sacrificed over the years on the altar of religious beliefs http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17786/muslim-students-beat-christian-teacher-to-death-for-desecrating-koran Also truths, human rights and civilized values are sacrificed....and at the end of the day everybody is affected. So Maggie it is not a matter of secular humanism versus theism or religion No. It is a matter of truth versus lies, civilization versus barbarism, progress versus stagnation, honesty versus hypocrisy, darkness versus light.......

Maggie the Opinionated

But who decides what is truth? When you look at the history of humanity, where do you see human rights prevailing except, let's be honest, in those nations shaped decisively by Christianity? Who defines human rights? truth? civilized values? You speak as if they are self-evident. They are not, in the absence of some overarching principle that defines what we humans ought to be and what we ought to be striving to become. It is all very well, and, indeed, it is a good and noble thing to fight obvious injustices such as slavery, witch burnings, etc. but what will take their place? The worship of secular reason has led to some of the worst atrocities in human history. Why, is that, do you think?

This is why I say that the first step in tackling any problem lies in correctly defining it. The easy assumption that it is religion, per se, that is the issue and that getting rid of it will solve the problem has already been refuted by history.

Leo666

We human beings decide what is truth through a thought out and reasoned process. (Truths' are not revealed by god to prophets and messengers.) And we can always revise and review whatever we think it true in the light of new information or knowledge. Those systems of belief which we cannot question, revise or review its doctrines have been the greatest obstacle to human and intellectual . Christianity like other faiths(and your overarching principle) was created by human beings. One of the greatest disservice religious faiths have done to humans including you, Maggie, is to attribute to an imaginary god feats achieved by human beings and again this mistaken idea that humans cannot achieve a better life through 'unaided reason'. I can see that you have introduced the phrase 'the worship secular reason'. Ah Maggie why must we worship? Why cant we use a word devoid of human debasement? Even that thing you think we need to appeal to- the overarching principle or whatever it is called is your creation- human creation. I have not said that religion should be gotten rid of. No instead I think we should put religious teachings where it belongs- the archives. The myths should be treated as myths, the lies contained in the scriptures should not be propagated as truths, superstitions should not be preached as science or used to undermine science. It is surprising that we are still told in this 21st century that some doctrines were revealed or dictated by god/Allah many centuries ago. I mean this sacred lie is no longer sustainable.  The religions in question should tell us the truth about those who made their thoughts divine revelations.
I think that will help us in defining the problem.

Maggie the Opinionated

Thought out and reasoned processes? How do they come about? If we are capable of that, why are you having to deal with witch burnings? The rape of children and virgins to cure Aids? Why aren't these people thinking and reasoning? It is no answer to say that it is because of a religion they have adopted. If they adopted that religion while thinking and reasoning, what does that tell you about how much reliance you can place on that method of approaching human problems? If they did not adopt their religions through a process of reason, what makes you think they will give them up and suddenly adopt a "reasoned" approach to life?

Why must we worship? You tell me. Where don't humans worship something? When in all of human history has reason ever prevailed? What does reason, divorced from culture, look like? Do you believe that you are guided strictly by reason?

What, by the way, is your proof that God hasn't revealed himself to humans?  When you talk about worship as "human debasement" I am forced to smile. The worship means to "give honor/respect" to the One who deserves it. God does not need it; we do. It helps us orient ourselves rightly to live rightly. There is no debasement in that. It is sanity in a world that is not always sane.

I do not trust human reason alone. I don't know why anyone who has read history would.

Leo666

Maggie, that one thinks or reasons does not mean that one cannot err. History is replete with mistaken ideas or thoughts of human beings. And humans have made progress by later correcting or abandoning those positions through education or legislation. But often the process of correcting or getting people to abandoned mistaken postitions for instance as contained in Ex 22: 18 which says Suffer not a witch to live' take time as in the case of witch burning. It is also difficult and risky particularly when such positions are sanctioned and sanctified in holy books.
Maggie I think there is something you are not getting correctly. Religions are products of human creation. The religions of today are the reasonings of yesteryears divinized, dogmatized and institutionlized. That is why you can notice similarities in religions and traditions http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/igew20120203. Or I should put it this way religions are largely outdated reasoning. Religions are ancient reasoning in spite of today's reasoning. The scriptures are codified ancient thoughts. The thinking of people who lived centuries and millenia ago. They had little or no access to the information available to us today. That is why religious dogmas are improper guide for humans in this 21 century. Open the pages of the Torah, Bible or the Koran. I am sure you will disagree with many things contained therein.
You once said that people do not worship the Pope Now you said that worship means honour and respect. Are you saying that people do not honour or respect the Pope? I am still wondering how worshipping spirits and gods helps to orient ourselves properly I come from a worshipping and religiously devout country and continent. If you dont trust human reason alone what other faculty do you add to it and how did you arrive at this 'supplement'? How did you know it is useful?
I want to reiterate that a reasoned approach to life is not error proof It is self correcting unlike the revealed apprach to life ||smiley||

Leo666

I just got this statement which I thought might interest friends at this forum....
 

Dear All,

Very little time left, but I would encourage everyone who is concerned to sign, individually and if possible in the name of your organisation and circulate the joint NGO statement. The deadline is today. Direct link to sign - http://tinyurl.com/7rxvac3

Statement circulated by AWID (the Association for Women's Rights in Development)

For the first time in its history, the 56th Commission on the Status of Women (CSW)--a key global policy-making body dedicated to gender equality and the promotion of women's rights--ended with no Agreed Conclusions. Not since Beijing (4th World Conference on Women in 1995) has there been such a stalemate between women's rights advocates and ultra-conservative forces. Once more, culture and tradition were invoked to stall progress on critical women's rights issues and provoke a political deadlock. Fundamentalist forces see this impasse as a great "pro-family" victory.[1]



The African Group, the OIC [Organisation of the Islamic Conference], the Holy See, CARICOM [Caribbean Community and Common Market] and several states worked in various combinations to explicitly block progress on several key issues, including opposition to already agreed upon language in international texts, such as removing the term traditional from "harmful traditional practices", lobbying to change "early and forced marriages" to the more ambiguous "child marriage", and replacing "gender equality" with "equality between men and women" to refute the existence of any other genders.



The most conservative blocs also sought to advance "parental rights" and deny the right to comprehensive sexuality education and "reproductive rights and sexual health" as human rights. The Holy See once more insisted that the terms "sexual and reproductive health" and "reproductive rights" should exclude abortion and abortion services. They also refused to endorse contraception or condom-use for family planning or preventing HIV/AIDS and other STDs, or support sexuality education stating that:



"The advancement of an agenda which promotes 'sex education' and artificial contraception to children, and completely disregards their parent's [sic] involvement, is antithetical to the role of the state which has the responsibility to promote the common good of the family and society."[2]



In a joint statement, Say NO to safeguarding "traditional values" over women's human rights!, women's rights organizations have expressed their outrage with the end result of the 56th CSW. The statement calls on governments not to put on hold the advancements of women's rights because of political battles between states; says no to re-opening negotiations on already established international agreements on women's human rights; and calls on governments to promote, protect and fulfill the human rights and fundamental freedoms of women and reject attempts to invoke traditional values or morals which infringe upon human rights guaranteed by international law. They urged governments to ensure that the health and human rights of girls and women are secured and reaffirmed at the upcoming Commission on Population and Development and the International Conference on Sustainable Development (Rio+20).



More information can be found at:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/ docs/2012/wom1905.doc.htm



To add your name to the list of signatories to the above statement, please click here.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] See the Family Watch International report on the 56th CSW here.

[2] http://www.turtlebayandbeyond. org/2012/family/norway- religion-and-morality-hazards- to-womens-rights

Maggie the Opinionated

Quote from: Leo666 on April 05, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Maggie, that one thinks or reasons does not mean that one cannot err. History is replete with mistaken ideas or thoughts of human beings. And humans have made progress by later correcting or abandoning those positions through education or legislation.
Who does the educating? Who does the legislating? What makes their ideas correct and those of the people they are correcting wrong? What are your standards for making such judgments? Do you hold yourself to be so perfectly objective and reasonable that you would feel entitled to force (that is what legislation does) people to do the right thing-- the thing that you have decided is right?

QuoteMaggie I think there is something you are not getting correctly. Religions are products of human creation.
This is your opinion. While some obviously are, most do try to capture what people understand, or think they understand about the God of creation. Without revelation, however, that is not nearly enough. But do you have evidence or a logical argument to make to support your opinion that no religion correctly reveals the living God?
QuoteThe religions of today are the reasonings of yesteryears divinized, dogmatized and institutionlized. That is why you can notice similarities in religions and traditions.
Oh? Or are the similarities there because there is something at bottom, God, that all men have seen and understood, poorly or well as the case may be?
QuoteOr I should put it this way religions are largely outdated reasoning. Religions are ancient reasoning in spite of today's reasoning. The scriptures are codified ancient thoughts. The thinking of people who lived centuries and millenia ago. They had little or no access to the information available to us today. That is why religious dogmas are improper guide for humans in this 21 century. Open the pages of the Torah, Bible or the Koran. I am sure you will disagree with many things contained therein.
I am a Christian. I don't care about the Koran for reasons I have already stated. I do not disagree with anything in the Bible or the Torah. I actually understand how to read them.
QuoteYou once said that people do not worship the Pope Now you said that worship means honour and respect. Are you saying that people do not honour or respect the Pope?
The word "worship" has taken on a specific meaning over the centuries that makes it inappropriate in American English, at least, for use with human beings. In commonwealth countries "your Worship" is still used as an honorific (so far as I know) applied to mayors, justices of the peace and other magistrates. Of course we respect and honor the pope but we do not forget for one single moment that he is a man, just as we are, and in need of prayer and forgiveness.

QuoteI am still wondering how worshipping spirits and gods helps to orient ourselves properly I come from a worshipping and religiously devout country and continent. If you dont trust human reason alone what other faculty do you add to it and how did you arrive at this 'supplement'? How did you know it is useful?
Worshipping spirits and gods is not a good thing. Worshipping God is. When we know what he demands of us and keep our eyes on the prize of becoming perfect, like our Lord Jesus Christ, we are orienting ourselves rightly. Reason tells me that this is a very good thing. Faith tells me that it will be possible.
QuoteI want to reiterate that a reasoned approach to life is not error proof It is self correcting unlike the revealed apprach to life.
How is it self-correcting? One has to have something to reason about. Where does that something come from? How does reason decide that this is good, that is bad? Again, you talk as though we could reason in a vacuum. We cannot. We are finite creatures whose every attempt to elevate human reason has ended in disaster. No one is a blank slate. We are a bundle of needs, desires, ego, resentments, etc. Reason, unimpeded by a sense of accountability to God, may decide that collectivizing farming is a good idea but before it self-corrected 6-7 million people in the Ukraine were deliberately allowed to starve. At least one of Stalin's henchmen thought that was a good thing-- it showed the peasants who was boss. His words, in Russian of course. That is reason that does not acknowledge God.

Former Believer

Quote from: Leo666 on April 05, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
I want to reiterate that a reasoned approach to life is not error proof It is self correcting unlike the revealed apprach to life ||smiley||

I really like the way you worded that, Leo.  Reasoned versus revealed. 

Religious folks who "know" they have the truth, must make all evidence conform to their paradigms.  The paradigm is sacred, not the truth.  Thus, if you're a Fundamentalist Christian who believes that the Bible is infallible, you must "spin" all the evidence that suggest that the Bible is not infallible in a manner that attempts to maintain your paradigm, even if the explanations that you offer are twisted and forced.  If you are a Catholic, you must maintain the integrity of Church doctrine and teaching in the same manner.

Free thinkers are not in such bondage.  Bill Maher, a comedian who is an atheist, had a great bit about this on a Real Time Episode recently.  He said that if Jesus appeared at half-time of the Super Bowl, Maher would admit he had been wrong and say "My bad...Praise the Lord!".  Same with me.  Show me good evidence for any sort of deity and I'll believe.  My paradigm is not sacred. It is maleable and may change. The truth is sacred, not the paradigm. 
Don't sacrifice your mind at the altar of belief

Argyle

QuoteMaggie: We are finite creatures whose every attempt to elevate human reason has ended in disaster.
This whole internet and computers thing, and y'know, the medicine, and the flying to the moon. Sure seem disasterous to me.  ||Kerly|| As usual, whatever you like about modern society you will attribute to your church/god and whatever you do not you will attribute to non-believers or "not true christians". The fact that your world-view remains internally consistent says less about it's truth value than you might think.

Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts,

none

Quote from: Argyle on April 05, 2012, 07:04:18 PM
QuoteMaggie: We are finite creatures whose every attempt to elevate human reason has ended in disaster.
This whole internet and computers thing, and y'know, the medicine, and the flying to the moon. Sure seem disasterous to me.  ||Kerly|| As usual, whatever you like about modern society you will attribute to your church/god and whatever you do not you will attribute to non-believers or "not true christians". The fact that your world-view remains internally consistent says less about it's truth value than you might think.
She has probably never cut down a tree and scribed some silly words on it.
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Maggie the Opinionated

Quote from: Former Believer on April 05, 2012, 06:56:39 PM

Free thinkers are not in such bondage.
Oh yes you are. There is no such thing as a "free thinker". There are only people who think more or less rationally. We are all products of our time and culture. You can no more escape that than you can decide to grow wings and fly away.

none

Quote from: Maggie the Opinionated on April 05, 2012, 08:09:44 PM
Quote from: Former Believer on April 05, 2012, 06:56:39 PM

Free thinkers are not in such bondage.
Oh yes you are. There is no such thing as a "free thinker". There are only people who think more or less rationally. We are all products of our time and culture. You can no more escape that than you can decide to grow wings and fly away.
insert jesus, fly away.
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Maggie the Opinionated

Quote from: Argyle on April 05, 2012, 07:04:18 PM
QuoteMaggie: We are finite creatures whose every attempt to elevate human reason has ended in disaster.
This whole internet and computers thing, and y'know, the medicine, and the flying to the moon. Sure seem disasterous to me. 

||Kerly||  Now, try posting something relevant to what I have been arguing here.

QuoteAs usual, whatever you like about modern society you will attribute to your church/god and whatever you do not you will attribute to non-believers or "not true christians".
Oh? care to point out a single message I have posted in the last two years that does this? Your ability to understand what you read is the best evidence possible that you have not thought out or reasoned your way to your current positions. They are decisively shaped by your ego, your fundamentalist upbringing, and all your particular cultural baggage-- of which I am unaware. So are you but only one of us has an excuse for lack of awareness.

none

how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

Maggie the Opinionated

I am so pleased that you found that brilliant post that I will refrain from telling you the obvious-- it doesn't have much to do with the subject here but deals with the shaping of culture.

And culture shapes us.

rickymooston

Quote from: Leo666 on April 03, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
Superstition pervades everyday life in Africa the way snow covers most parts of Europe at the peak of Winter season.

What I've noticed about the Nigerians I know, is that they seem to speak somewhat poetically.

I'm reading through this thread with some interest.

I glanced over the petition you are making. I'm unsure what to say. Amnesty International isn't swayed by the views of conservative states though. How binding are these resolutions?

An awareness needs somehow to come from "within" that some of these practices are wrong and apparently, political forces are going in the other direction.
"Re: Why should any Black man have any respect for any cop?
Your question is racist. If the police behave badly then everyone should lose respect for those policemen.", Happy Evolute

none

Quote from: Maggie the Opinionated on April 05, 2012, 10:37:15 PM
I am so pleased that you found that brilliant post that I will refrain from telling you the obvious-- it doesn't have much to do with the subject here but deals with the shaping of culture.

And culture shapes us.
what...?? the shaping of culture...? culture shapes us...?
how long after I type amen do I get the money?
I'm lost, if you see me you are lost also
If Jesus believed in himself he wouldn't have been Jewish.

meAgain

Hope I?m not coming too late into this conversation, but here are a few things I would like to say. Bad things come from the religious and non religious alike. The fault is in human nature ? not religion. Human sacrifice in the name of religion is appalling.  As is anti-gay hate crimes. However, human trafficking encouraged by a non religious/secular ideology is equally horrendous. As is genocide promoted by an anti-religious fascist group. 

I think it is a weak position to single out religion as the root cause. More specifically I think it extremely weak to single out religion as instigating the denial of women?s rights. The disrespect and lowly view of women is hardly limited to religious institutions.

You speak of ridding the world of barbaric and perverse behavior. How?s this barbaric picture for you . . .  a commercial during half time showing a bunch of drunk men ogling over barely dressed women who all have fake boobs, have been air brushed, and most likely suffer from eating disorders. Surely, this non religious secular world view about the ideal woman is not pro woman?

Oh, but they argue it is. These woman are free they tell us. Free to have sex with whom ever and whenever they like (as long as it is their ?choice? and as long as they are ?responsible? of course ? all they need to do is take that little pill ? don?t worry they tell us, it gives you freedom. The benefits far outweigh those pesky side effects.).

Who is using reason here? Who is actually acknowledging the truth? Who is actually accepting the facts? The science? The research? The obvious? The statistics show time and time again women don?t emotionally handle casual sex as well as men and the physical harm from things like the pill is indisputable.   

I guess I also always find it a little amusing when atheists/humanists/non-religious think people believe their religions b/c their religions say so. I can?t speak for others here, but as a Catholic I use logic and reason. Something is not true because the Church teaches it. The Church teaches it b/c it is true. Do you understand the difference?

For example, sex outside of marriage is not a bad idea b/c the Church teaches that it is a bad idea. The Church teaches sex outside of marriage as a bad idea b/c it IS a bad idea (TRUE). The Church accepts all the evidence on this matter. The Church is not the one ignoring the statistics ? the facts. It is almost always the non ?religious who throw reason out the window and turn to ?wishful thinking? and actually think if we tell ourselves it?s ok, then it will be ok. LOL! Where is the reason? Where is the logic?   

In short, to think religion is the problem is again not being honest. You would be hard to find that the majority of aid to the poor, the hungry, the sick and women and children, does not in fact come from religious organizations. That, once again, I?m afraid is a statistical fact. A lot of good and a lot of people have been helped in the name of religion. If humanists want to really see the greatest potential for man achieved, he can?t just ignore the good b/c it comes from a source he is ideologically opposed to.

I think your argument seems to be religion can get in the way of progress. I couldn?t disagree more. Stupid people can get in the way of progress. I think I could make a pretty good argument showing in fact religion has been the motivation behind many of mankind?s greatest achievements. If we all really want to work together, shouldn?t this be acknowledged?

rickymooston

Quote from: meAgain on April 06, 2012, 03:05:21 AMHow?s this barbaric picture for you . . .  a commercial during half time showing a bunch of drunk men ogling over barely dressed women who all have fake boobs, have been air brushed, and most likely suffer from eating disorders. Surely, this non religious secular world view about the ideal woman is not pro woman?

Many of the people willing watchng said commercial go to church. ||666||
"Re: Why should any Black man have any respect for any cop?
Your question is racist. If the police behave badly then everyone should lose respect for those policemen.", Happy Evolute