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Offline kevin

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modern-day examples of speciation
« on: May 18, 2017, 03:08:21 PM »
many years ago i studied in evolutionary ecology. evolution has always been interesting to me, because so much of what i see in the world is consistent with it, and so little is contradictory.

people often make a distinction that allows them to accept one aspect of evolution, which is variation within species, but deny another, which is speciation itself. part of the problem is that there is no one definition of species. the traditional definition is that a species is a group of organisms morphologically more similar to each other than to other groups. this is how most species have been identified and named. during the last 50 years or so, another definition has become popular, which is that species are groups of organisms that can breed and produce fertile offspring. no one definition works for all organisms-- asexual organisms don't breed, and extinct species can be identified only by morphology.

given these limitations, there are numerous examples of speciation taking place in historic time that human beings have witnessed. a ten-second internet search turned up these natural and experimental examples on the first page:

https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v230/n5292/abs/230289a0.html
famous biologists breed fruit flies for contrasting traits and end up with two groups that are not interfertile.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.1978.tb03314.x/abstract
house mice introduced into different islands are morphologically distinct from each other after 250 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragopogon
goatsbeards have evolved from three to five species following their introduction to north america 100 years ago.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11048719
apparent speciation in progress among apple maggots. following the introduction of european apples a subset of the original hawthorn parasites has specialized on the new plant and shows partial reproductive isolation.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2441378?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
a new species of dandelion has been discovered diverging from parent lines in oregon, and is reproductively isolated.


i ignored many other examples including examples of speciation in progress. modern evolutionary theory states that speciation is not rare, but in fact has happened every time a species occurs. examples of it are easy to find in any literature search.

note that evolution can generate a new species through natural selection, mutation, founder effect, genetic drift, and probably other ways i can't remember. it's not rocket science at all.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2017, 04:42:50 PM »
Any creationist, on board IGI, who deny "speciation"; none to my knowledge ?

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2017, 05:12:46 PM »
Any creationist, on board IGI, who deny "speciation"; none to my knowledge ?

you deny it, eyes. speciation is a fundamental part of evolutionary theory.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2017, 07:28:47 PM »
Any creationist, on board IGI, who deny "speciation"; none to my knowledge ?

you deny it, eyes.

Not at all; yours is a bad habit, Kevin, telling others what they believe.

speciation is a fundamental part of evolutionary theory.

Speciation's the end of line, the last stop, the easy part,
The beginning of the journey is either front-loaded by a creator,
Or difficult to explain, can you tear yourself away from reading my mind ?

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2017, 08:14:36 PM »
perhaps you don't deny it. if so, i apologize.

certainly your questions elsewhere express doubt. if you believe it and doubt it at the same time, you have a problem i can't help you with:

"Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population." - Wikipedia.

Has macroevolution ever been proven ?
Do the similarities between earth's creatures prove macroevolution ?
Or do these similarities prove only that these creatures share the same planet, air, food and water, etc. ?

first, all of the examples i posted are examples of macroevolution.

second, similarities between earth's creatures do not prove macroevolution.

third, these creatures certainly share the same planet, air, food, and water, but that has nothing to do with macroevolution.

in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a creationist point of view. science has nothing to say about whether creationism is right or wrong, only whether it conforms to the assumptions science makes when it talks about itself. since creationism is not subject to scientific assumptions, it cannot be proven right or wrong by scientific methods.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 09:26:04 AM »
We must agree to disagree about the proofs for macroevolution, which has never been observed or confirmed.

@ Kevin
 


 

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2017, 10:42:28 AM »
well, eyes, you're free to believe anything you want.

but i just posted examples of evolution taking place at a level above that of species, which is what macroevolution is. in each example, macroevolution was observed and confirmed, by definition.

perhaps you now mean something else by the term "macroevolution" than what you posted earlier?
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2017, 11:38:05 AM »
well, eyes, you're free to believe anything you want.

In a spirit of friendship, that very same 'freedom to believe' is offered to you,
That is, if you don't understand that you already possess a freedom to believe.

If macroevolution and microevolution are the same entities or the same instruments, except for the matter of time involved/evolving. And speciation is macroevolution, then speciation would be evolution and a fact (not theory).

But there is no observable evidence for an evolutionary process: one perceived as 'climbing' up the taxonomic ladder, and thus providing tangible corroboration through an actual fossil record or whatever; evolution has not been proven.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 12:09:25 PM by eyeshaveit »

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2017, 03:12:38 PM »
microevolution and macroevolution are identical, eyes. speciation is the fundamental phenomena that defines macroevolution.

as for higher taxa, they are mere organizational pigeonholes, and have no existence in nature. there is no such thing as a taxonomic ladder, and organisms simplify as often as tbey become more complex.

i suspect your difficulty is in not understanding tbe difference between evolution the process, and evolution the history. one is established unequivocably. the other is one story among several for how natural oder in organisms arose.

do you have an interest in exploring this subject? there are aspects of it of which you seem to be unaware.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Shnozzola

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2017, 03:33:50 PM »
well, eyes, you're free to believe anything you want.

In a spirit of friendship, that very same 'freedom to believe' is offered to you,
That is, if you don't understand that you already possess a freedom to believe.

If macroevolution and microevolution are the same entities or the same instruments, except for the matter of time involved/evolving. And speciation is macroevolution, then speciation would be evolution and a fact (not theory).

But there is no observable evidence for an evolutionary process: one perceived as 'climbing' up the taxonomic ladder, and thus providing tangible corroboration through an actual fossil record or whatever; evolution has not been proven.

Eyes,
   IMO, the problem trying to divide macro and micro evolution is because of our small snapshot of time.  And really, you don't need fossils. 

Look at the genus Equus:  Horses, Zebras, and donkeys
Now consider the genus Giraffa    giraffe, of course
Now consider the genus Vicugna - llamas, alpaca
Now consider the genus Camelus -   camels of course

It seems to me, in our brief snapshot of life, even a 5000 year snapshot of life, we don't need "macro" or "micro" terms to understand the differences and similarities of evolution throughout these similar animals.  But spread it out over 500,000 years and the differences between the descendants of a miniature pony and the descendants of a giraffe may be interpreted by future debates as macroevolution.


edit:  I should have added white tail deer, impala, wildebeest, and Jersey cows to the mix with the above - all similar enough to see, and with all of their fossils laying side by side to show micro to macro
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 04:17:27 PM by Shnozzola, Reason: fix »
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2017, 05:46:49 PM »
none of that is proven, zcnozz, only inferred. and special creation explains it just as well.

only speciation can be proven.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2017, 06:49:02 PM »
microevolution and macroevolution are identical, eyes. speciation is the fundamental phenomena that defines macroevolution.

then speciation explains the evolutionary timeline ?

as for higher taxa, they are mere organizational pigeonholes, and have no existence in nature. there is no such thing as a taxonomic ladder, and organisms simplify as often as tbey become more complex.

then speciation negates the need for transitional fossils ?

i suspect your difficulty is in not understanding tbe difference between evolution the process, and evolution the history. one is established unequivocably. the other is one story among several for how natural oder in organisms arose.

are you confusing the word evolution for its reality ?

do you have an interest in exploring this subject? there are aspects of it of which you seem to be unaware.

as long as your temper and anger don't keep getting in the way ?

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2017, 07:14:06 PM »
IMO, the problem trying to divide macro and micro evolution is because of our small snapshot of time.  And really, you don't need fossils.
 

then good thing they don't exist ?

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2017, 08:18:50 PM »
then speciation explains the evolutionary timeline ?

i don't know what you mean by"the evolutionary timeline," eyes. you'll have to explain what you're talking about.

then speciation negates the need for transitional fossils ?

needed for what?

are you confusing the word evolution for its reality ?

i am in absolutely no confusion about what evolution is, eyes, how it works, or what is and is not proven by the theory.

as long as your temper and anger don't keep getting in the way ?

lol

i'm so angry about this vital controversy.

eyes, please explain in ordinary plain speech what your difficulty is with the theory of evolution. i'm interested in conversation, not banter, so if you're interested otherwise, we need not continue this.

if you are interested, i'd like to hear what you believe, and we can discuss the pros and cons of what i believe, too.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2017, 09:05:09 PM »
then speciation explains the evolutionary timeline ?

i don't know what you mean by"the evolutionary timeline," eyes. you'll have to explain what you're talking about.

Condensed from New Scientist v v v

"There are all sorts of ways to reconstruct the history of life on Earth. Pinning down when specific events occurred is often tricky, though. For this, biologists depend mainly on dating the rocks in which fossils are found, and by looking at the “molecular clocks” in the DNA of living organisms.
There are problems with each of these methods. The fossil record is like a movie with most of the frames cut out. Because it is so incomplete, it can be difficult to establish exactly when particular evolutionary changes happened.
"Modern genetics allows scientists to measure how different species are from each other at a molecular level, and thus to estimate how much time has passed since a single lineage split into different species. Confounding factors rack up for species that are very distantly related, making the earlier dates more uncertain.
"These difficulties mean that the dates in the timeline should be taken as approximate. As a general rule, they become more uncertain the further back along the geological timescale we look. Dates that are very uncertain are marked with a question mark.

"3.8 billion years ago?
This is our current “best guess” for the beginning of life on Earth. It is distinctly possible that this date will change as more evidence comes to light. The first life may have developed in undersea alkaline vents, and was probably based on RNA rather than DNA.
At some point far back in time, a common ancestor gave rise to two main groups of life: bacteria and archaea.
How this happened, when, and in what order the different groups split, is still uncertain.
3.5 billion years ago
The oldest fossils of single-celled organisms date from this time.
3.46 billion years ago
Some single-celled organisms may be feeding on methane by this time.
3.4 billion years ago
Rock formations in Western Australia, that some researchers claim are fossilised microbes, date from this period.
3 billion years ago
Viruses are present by this time, but they may be as old as life itself.
2.4 billion years ago
The “great oxidation event”. Supposedly, the poisonous waste produced by photosynthetic cyanobacteria – oxygen – starts to build up in the atmosphere. Dissolved oxygen makes the iron in the oceans “rust” and sink to the seafloor, forming striking banded iron formations.
Recently, though, some researchers have challenged this idea. They think cyanobacteria only evolved later, and that other bacteria oxidised the iron in the absence of oxygen.
Yet others think that cyanobacteria began pumping out oxygen as early as 2.1 billion years ago, but that oxygen began to accumulate only due to some other factor, possibly a decline in methane-producing bacteria. Methane reacts with oxygen, removing it from the atmosphere, so fewer methane-belching bacteria would allow oxygen to build up.
2.3 billion years ago
Earth freezes over in what may have been the first “snowball Earth”, possibly as a result of a lack of volcanic activity.
2.15 billion years ago
First undisputed fossil evidence of cyanobacteria, and of photosynthesis: the ability to take in sunlight and carbon dioxide, and obtain energy, releasing oxygen as a by-product.
2 billion years ago?
Eukaryotic cells – cells with internal “organs” (known as organelles) – come into being. One key organelle is the nucleus: the control centre of the cell, in which the genes are stored in the form of DNA.
Eukaryotic cells evolved when one simple cell engulfed another, and the two lived together, more or less amicably – an example of “endosymbiosis”. The engulfed bacteria eventually become mitochondria, which provide eukaryotic cells with energy. The last common ancestor of all eukaryotic cells had mitochondria – and had also developed sexual reproduction.
Later, eukaryotic cells engulfed photosynthetic bacteria and formed a symbiotic relationship with them. The engulfed bacteria evolved into chloroplasts: the organelles that give green plants their colour and allow them to extract energy from sunlight.
Different lineages of eukaryotic cells acquired chloroplasts in this way on at least three separate occasions, and one of the resulting cell lines went on to evolve into all green algae and green plants.
1.5 billion years ago?
The eukaryotes divide into three groups: the ancestors of modern plants, fungi and animals split into separate lineages, and evolve separately.
900 million years ago?
The first multicellular life develops around this time. It is unclear exactly how or why this happens
800 million years ago
The early multicellular animals undergo their first splits. First they divide into, essentially, the sponges and everything else – the latter being more formally known as the Eumetazoa.
Around 20 million years later, a small group called the placozoa breaks away from the rest of the Eumetazoa.
770 million years ago
The planet freezes over again in another “snowball Earth“.
730 million years ago
The comb jellies (ctenophores) split from the other multicellular animals.
680 million years ago
The ancestor of cnidarians (jellyfish and their relatives) breaks away from the other animals
630 million years ago
Around this time, some animals evolve bilateral symmetry for the first time: that is, they now have a defined top and bottom, as well as a front and back.
590 million years ago
The Bilateria, those animals with bilateral symmetry, undergo a profound evolutionary split. They divide into the protostomes and deuterostomes.
The deuterostomes eventually include all the vertebrates, plus an outlier group called the Ambulacraria. The protostomes become all the arthropods (insects, spiders, crabs, shrimp and so forth), various types of worm, and the microscopic rotifers.
580 million years ago
The earliest known fossils of cnidarians, the group that includes jellyfish, sea anemones and corals, date to around this time
575 million years ago
Strange life forms known as the Ediacarans appear around this time and persist for about 33 million years.
570 million years ago
A small group breaks away from the main group of deuterostomes, known as the Ambulacraria. This group eventually becomes the echinoderms (starfish, brittle stars and their relatives) and two worm-like families called the hemichordates and Xenoturbellida.
Another echinoderm, the sea lily, is thought to be the “missing link” between vertebrates (animals with backbones) and invertebrates (animals without backbones), a split that occurred around this time.
565 million years ago
Fossilised animal trails suggest that some animals are moving under their own power.
540 million years ago
As the first chordates – animals that have a backbone, or at least a primitive version of it – emerge among the deuterostomes, a surprising cousin branches off: the sea squirts (tunicates)
535 million years ago
The Cambrian explosion begins, with many new body layouts appearing on the scene
530 million years ago
The first true vertebrate – an animal with a backbone – appears. It probably evolves from a jawless fish that has a notochord instead of a true backbone.
Around the same time, the first clear fossils of trilobites appear.
520 million years ago
Conodonts, another contender for the title of “earliest vertebrate“, appear. They probably look like eels.
500 million years ago
Fossil evidence shows that animals were exploring the land at this time. The first animals to do so were probably euthycarcinoids – thought to be the missing link between insects and crustaceans.
489 million years ago
The Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event begins, leading to a great increase in diversity.
465 million years ago
Plants begin colonising the land.
460 million years ago
Fish split into two major groups: the bony fish and cartilaginous fish. The cartilaginous fish include all the sharks, skates and rays.
440 million years ago
The bony fish split into their two major groups: the lobe-finned fish with bones in their fleshy fins, and the ray-finned fish.
The lobe-finned fish eventually give rise to amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. The ray-finned fish thrive, and give rise to most fish species living today.
425 million years ago
The coelacanth splits from the rest of the lobe-finned fish.
417 million years ago
Lungfish split from the other lobe-finned fish. Although fish, complete with gills, lungfish have a pair of lungs
400 million years ago
The oldest known insect lives around this time. Some plants evolve woody stems.
397 million years ago
The first four-legged animals, or tetrapods, evolve from intermediate species such as Tiktaalik.
The tetrapods go on to conquer the land, and give rise to all amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals.
385 million years ago
The oldest fossilised tree dates from this period.
375 million years ago
Tiktaalik - the fleshy fins of its lungfish ancestors are evolving into limbs.
340 million years ago
The first major split occurs in the tetrapods, with the amphibians branching off from the others.
310 million years ago
The sauropsids and synapsids split from one another. The sauropsids include all the modern reptiles, plus the dinosaurs and birds.
The first synapsids are also reptiles. They eventually evolve into the mammals.
320 to 250 million years ago
The pelycosaurs, the first major group of synapsid animals, dominate the land.
275 to 100 million years ago
The therapsids, close cousins of the pelycosaurs, evolve alongside them and eventually replace them.
A group of cynodonts develops dog-like teeth and eventually evolves into the first mammals.
250 million years ago
The Permian period ends with the greatest mass extinction in Earth’s history, including the last of the trilobites.
In the oceans, the ammonites, cousins of the modern nautilus and octopus, evolve around this time.
210 million years ago
A badly-preserved fossil called Protoavis suggest that some early dinosaurs are already evolving into birds
200 million years ago
As the Triassic period comes to an end, another mass extinction strikes, paving the way for the dinosaurs
Around the same time, proto-mammals evolve warm-bloodedness
180 million years ago
The first split occurs in the early mammal population. The monotremes, a group of mammals that lay eggs include the duck-billed platypus and the echidnas.
168 million years ago
A half-feathered, flightless dinosaur called Epidexipteryx, lives in China.
150 million years ago
Archaeopteryx, the famous “first bird”, lives in Europe.
140 million years ago
Around this time, placental mammals split from their cousins the marsupials.
131 million years ago
Eoconfuciusornis, a bird rather more advanced than Archaeopteryx, lives in China.
130 million years ago
The first flowering plants emerge, following a period of rapid evolution.
105-85 million years ago
The placental mammals split into their four major groups: the laurasiatheres; the euarchontoglires; the Xenarthra and the afrotheres
100 million years ago
The Cretaceous dinosaurs reach their peak in size.
93 million years ago
The oceans become starved of oxygen, possibly due to a huge underwater volcanic eruption.
75 million years ago
The ancestors of modern primates split from the ancestors of modern rodents and lagomorphs (rabbits, hares and pikas).
70 million years ago
Grasses evolve – though it will be several million years before the vast open grasslands appear.
65 million years ago
The Cretaceous-Tertiary (K/T) extinction wipes out a swathe of species, including all the giant reptiles
63 million years ago
The primates split into two groups, known as the haplorrhines (dry-nosed primates) and the strepsirrhines (wet-nosed primates).
58 million years ago
The tarsier, a primate with enormous eyes to help it see at night, splits from the rest of the haplorrhines
55 million years ago
The Palaeocene/Eocene extinction.
50 million years ago
Artiodactyls, which look like a cross between a wolf and a tapir, begin evolving into whales.
48 million years ago
Indohyus, another possible ancestor of whales and dolphins, lives in India.
47 million years ago
Early whales called protocetids live in shallow seas, returning to land to give birth.
40 million years ago
New World monkeys become the first simians (higher primates) to diverge from the rest of the group
25 million years ago
Apes split from the Old World monkeys.
18 million years ago
Gibbons become the first ape to split from the others.
14 million years ago
Orang-utans branch off from the other great apes
7 million years ago
Gorillas branch off from the other great apes.
6 million years ago
Humans diverge from their closest relatives; the chimpanzees and bonobos.
2 million years ago
A 700-kilogram rodent called Josephoartigasia monesi lives in South America."

Condensed from New Scientist . https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17453-timeline-the-evolution-of-life/

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2017, 12:23:33 AM »
so by "evolutionary timeline" you mean the hypothesized overall phylogeny of life on earth, set against a proposed set of dates derived from various sources?

Quote
In biology, phylogenetics /ˌfaɪloʊdʒəˈnɛtɪks, -lə-/[1][2] (Greek: φυλή, φῦλον - phylé, phylon = tribe, clan, race + γενετικός - genetikós = origin, source, birth)[3] is the study of the evolutionary history and relationships among individuals or groups of organisms (e.g. species, or populations). These relationships are discovered through phylogenetic inference methods that evaluate observed heritable traits, such as DNA sequences or morphology under a model of evolution of these traits. The result of these analyses is a phylogeny (also known as a phylogenetic tree) – a diagrammatic hypothesis about the history of the evolutionary relationships of a group of organisms.[4] The tips of a phylogenetic tree can be living organisms or fossils, and represent the "end," or the present, in an evoultionary lineage. Phylogenetic analyses have become central to understanding biodiversity, evolution, ecology, and genecomes.

evolutionary phylogenetics is all hypothetical, because the past cannot be proven. nothing in the "evolutionary timeline" you describe cannot also be explained by simple creationism, although there are several requirements of a functioning creation model that many (if not most) people don't understand, including creationists.

so to answer your question, speciation is an integral step in what you're calling the evolutionary timeline, because separation of species marks the discrete intervals that make it up, whether they're stated explicitly or not. but while speciation is a well-documented fact (i can post lots of other examples) the evolutionary timeline is a hypothesis, an inference, designed to work under a model of evolution.

now i have a question. do you believe that evolution occurs today, now, within extant populations of organisms, or not?
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2017, 04:30:54 AM »
so by "evolutionary timeline" you mean the hypothesized overall phylogeny of life on earth, set against a proposed set of dates derived from various sources?

Not my timeline, but your timeline; the one with "the past that cannot be proven" v v v

... the past cannot be proven. nothing in the "evolutionary timeline" you describe cannot also be explained by simple creationism ...

now i have a question. do you believe that evolution occurs today, now, within extant populations of organisms, or not?

It depends on your definition of evolution, because if evolution is not speciation, what exactly is it ?
We know a pharmacist can evolve into a nurse, who evolves into a physician; that's evolution.
A Mus musculus "introduced into different islands" can evolve into a Mus xxxxxx (see OP),
Or a Canis lupus can evolve into a Canis lupus familiaris (Wikipedia); that's evolution ?


Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2017, 12:22:54 PM »
It depends on your definition of evolution, because if evolution is not speciation, what exactly is it ?

evolution includes speciation, and speciation is one type of evolution. because evolution is gene frequency change over time, given sufficient time, there can be sufficient gene frequency change to result in speciation.

Quote
We know a pharmacist can evolve into a nurse, who evolves into a physician; that's evolution.

no, that's equivocation.

Quote
A Mus musculus "introduced into different islands" can evolve into a Mus xxxxxx (see OP),
Or a Canis lupus can evolve into a Canis lupus familiaris (Wikipedia); that's evolution ?

yes. evolution is a process, that we can see today. the Mus radiating into different species on different islands is an example of speciation-- it's also evolution that we have observed in historic times.

dogs diverging from wolves is an example of speculation. so far as i know, there are no records of the event and its occurrence is inferred, not observed. many well-educated professional biologists don't understand the difference.

eyes, you seem to want to make the word "evolution" mean more than it does. the technical definition is as i said earlier:

Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.


there is a consequent field of biological study that takes this observable, repeatable and unquestionably true process and uses it to build a theoretical model of phylogenetics that seeks to use the process historically to explain modern species diversity. sadly, that model of phylogentics is also frequently called "evolution" by biologists who should know better.

nothing in the process of evolution is contrary to creationism. the speculative phylogenetics model is contrary to creationism, but it's an inference, not a fact.




"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2017, 03:31:24 PM »
nothing in the process of evolution is contrary to creationism.

many folks think of evolution as, 'i'm a monkey's nephew, and that primate likely is the giddy-up-go-great-grandson of single-cell baker's yeast struck by lightning',

so ignore speciation for the moment: you say it is not evolution; others say speciation could have been 'front loaded' by the creator; so shelve speciation,

and explain evolution as being more applicable than that the stated account in genesis; why does evolution theory overshadow a young earth ?

Offline Inertialmass

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2017, 03:51:03 PM »
Nice thread, excellent topic particularly for fundy christers in denial over hundreds or thousands of years of empirical knowledge accumulated subsequent to rudimentary creation mythology invented in provincial orality.

However, Kevin, I get a feeling that you're still stuck in a pre-deconversion, trying-to-keep-god-open-ended sort of epistemology.

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none of that is proven, zcnozz, only inferred. and special creation explains it just as well.

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so by "evolutionary timeline" you mean the hypothesized overall phylogeny of life on earth, set against a proposed set of dates derived from various sources?

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evolutionary phylogenetics is all hypothetical, because the past cannot be proven. nothing in the "evolutionary timeline" you describe cannot also be explained by simple creationism,

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while speciation is a well-documented fact (i can post lots of other examples) the evolutionary timeline is a hypothesis, an inference,

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the speculative phylogenetics model is contrary to creationism, but it's an inference, not a fact.

You are using the concepts "hypothesis," "inference," "fact" and "proof" incorrectly, or at least out of context.  Nothing -- absolutely nothing -- in science is ever "proven" once and for all.  Unlike in mathematics, logic, philosophy or religion.  Science is not Aristotelian deduction.  All of science is empirical induction.  And just because something is said to be well-demonstrated via evidence right here right now in front of us today does not suggest that it somehow has superior epistemic value than something well-demonstrated via evidence from the past historical record.

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Proofs have two features that do not exist in science:  They are final, and they are binary.  Once a theorem is proven, it will forever be true and there will be nothing in the future that will threaten its status as a proven theorem (unless a flaw is discovered in the proof).  Apart from a discovery of an error, a proven theorem will forever and always be a proven theorem.

In contrast, all scientific knowledge is tentative and provisional, and nothing is final.  There is no such thing as final proven knowledge in science.  The currently accepted theory of a phenomenon is simply the best explanation for it among all available alternatives.  Its status as the accepted theory is contingent on what other theories are available and might suddenly change tomorrow if there appears a better theory or new evidence that might challenge the accepted theory.  No knowledge or theory (which embodies scientific knowledge) is final.  That, by the way, is why science is so much fun.
     
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/common-misconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

So, for instance, it's a little shocking and flat out wrong when you say that "evolutionary phylogenetics is all hypothetical, because the past cannot be proven..."  Well, again, nothing is proven in science.  Sometimes supporting evidence accumulates and strengthens an hypothesis, sometimes evidence falls away or countervailing evidence weakens the original hypothesis while strengthening a competing view. Fifty years ago an evolutionary anthropologist may have hypothesized a certain phylogenetic tree based on fossil evidence with Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis branching from a common node 400,000 years ago.  Today this hypothesis based on fossil evidence has been greatly strengthened based on independently-derived genetic evidence.  It's fair to say that the evolutionary phylogenetics relating us to Neanderthal has not been proven, but the relationship has morphed from hypothesis to grounded theory.
 
Meantime there's zero evidence for supernatural creation.  Just myth and the word of ancient authority.

Offline Shnozzola

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2017, 04:25:19 PM »
   The interesting thing with the idea of total creationism, is, much like the bars in the Star Wars movies, most of us humans could come up with much more of a variety of creations - stone golems with 8 eyes looking in every direction, rolling intellectual balls that are indestructible, 100 ft tall beings that fly, invisible beings with flesh melting stares, lava monsters - and on and on.  You would expect an omnipotent universe creator to do better than horses, cows, donkeys, wildebeest, and zebras, all with almost the same reproductive genitalia.

   Even as a Christian for many years, I had decided in high school science class that god set evolution up at the cell level  and moved on.  I guess we all reach our line and sometimes refuse to go further.  That is why, the idea that there never were any deities is so much more fascinating when you experience life from that angle. If I burn in hell for eternity for considering that, Ce La Vie, or, Ce La Deces, Mort ?
Ironically, the myriad  of "god" beliefs of humanity are proving to be more dangerous than us learning that we are on our own, making the way we treat each other far more important

Offline Goombah

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2017, 08:04:58 PM »
   The interesting thing with the idea of total creationism, is, much like the bars in the Star Wars movies, most of us humans could come up with much more of a variety of creations - stone golems with 8 eyes looking in every direction, rolling intellectual balls that are indestructible, 100 ft tall beings that fly, invisible beings with flesh melting stares, lava monsters - and on and on.  You would expect an omnipotent universe creator to do better than horses, cows, donkeys, wildebeest, and zebras, all with almost the same reproductive genitalia.
Like these maybe?:

Cherubim

(Under the wings of the cherubim could be seen what looked like the hands of a man.)
9
I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels, one beside each of the cherubim; the wheels sparkled like chrysolite.
10
As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel.
11
As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about [3] as the cherubim went. The cherubim went in whatever direction the head faced, without turning as they went.
12
Their entire bodies, including their backs, their hands and their wings, were completely full of eyes, as were their four wheels.
1
3
I heard the wheels being called "the whirling wheels."
14
Each of the cherubim had four faces: One face was that of a cherub, the second the face of a man, the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.
15
Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River.
16
When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side.
17
When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them.
18
Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.
19
While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the LORD's house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.
20
These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim.
21
Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like the hands of a man.
22
Their faces had the same appearance as those I had seen by the Kebar River. Each one went straight ahead.

Leviathan
In Job 41,

Throughout the chapter, the creature is described as having a “double coat of armor,” “fearsome teeth,” and breath that “sets coals ablaze and flames dart from its mouth”. It is incredibly tough, and iron, “it treats like straw and bronze like rotten wood”. It also “makes the depths churn like a boiling cauldron,” indicating enormous size.
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/fantastic-beasts-of-the-bible-and-where-to-find-them.aspx?p=5#lWS6YGMv2EviLUxo.99
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2017, 09:47:53 PM »
nothing in the process of evolution is contrary to creationism.

many folks think of evolution as, 'i'm a monkey's nephew, and that primate likely is the giddy-up-go-great-grandson of single-cell baker's yeast struck by lightning',

i know a man who believes the moon landings were faked, two who believe in fairies, and lots who think that mineral crystals give off healthy vibrations.

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so ignore speciation for the moment: you say it is not evolution; others say speciation could have been 'front loaded' by the creator; so shelve speciation,

i did not say speciation was not evolution. i said speciation was one kind of evolution, which it is. i am referring to an ongoing natural process by which populations of a species diverge genetically until we no longer consider them to be the same species, something you can watch happening today, if you want to take the time. you are talking about a historic process by which modern day species originated. that process could be either evolution or special creation.

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and explain evolution as being more applicable than that the stated account in genesis; why does evolution theory overshadow a young earth ?

it doesn't. if you are a scientist, and you believe that science is where all answers to all questions are to be found, then the christian account in genesis is as much nonsense as the hindu creation epics in the rigveda, or the navajo dine bahane, or the australian aborigine accounts of the dreaming.

if you do not accept that fundamental scientific premise that all knowledge must come from sources that can be evaluated scientifically, then you are free to accept other versions of creation based on other evidence you believe to be compelling, whether it is "scientific" or not.

if you want to talk about young earth theory, i'm willing to do so, but it's a difficult subject for many people because they simply haven't thought it through. i am constantly presented with arguments for why the earth is old, or why the earth is young, that have absolutely no basis in clear reasoning. lots of people get pissed off when i point it out.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2017, 06:05:45 AM »

so ignore speciation for the moment: you say it is not evolution; others say speciation could have been 'front loaded' by the creator; so shelve speciation,

i did not say speciation was not evolution. i said speciation was one kind of evolution, which it is. i am referring to an ongoing natural process by which populations of a species diverge genetically until we no longer consider them to be the same species, something you can watch happening today, if you want to take the time. you are talking about a historic process by which modern day species originated. that process could be either evolution or special creation.

With due appreciation for the OP, you might as well be explaining the machinery that mixes peanuts into a Mr. Goodbar, when all that people want to know is where their chocolate bar comes from. 


 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 06:29:07 AM by eyeshaveit »

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2017, 12:19:58 PM »
the OP is about speciation.

if you have a different question, ask it.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Inertialmass

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2017, 02:31:40 PM »
all that people want to know is where their chocolate bar comes from.

That seems incomplete.

Many people to whom you refer also want the Goodbar Factory exclusive for themselves and their kind alone, they want a gift Super Special Secret Mystery Decoder Ring taped on the outside, and expect to have their treat and eat it too.  Through all of eternity.


Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2017, 02:48:34 PM »
here's an interesting example of the process:

Rapid ecological speciation in three-spined stickleback Gasterosteus aculeatus from Middleton Island, Alaska: the roles of selection and geographic isolation.


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Abstract

Morphological analysis of three-spined stickleback Gasterosteus aculeatus collected in Middleton Island, Alaska, was conducted in order to study how gene flow and selection interact during divergence. Middleton Island was uplifted by 3.4 m during the Great Alaska Earthquake in 1964; this event formed a series of new freshwater sites, triggering rapid evolution, and probably rapid speciation, in G. aculeatus populations that colonized them. The level of hybridization between the anadromous and the resident freshwater populations is reflected by the level of morphological variance of the resident freshwater G. aculeatus. Therefore, geographic isolation of the sites from the sea (approximating gene flow) and ionic concentration of the water (reflecting selection pressures) were correlated with morphological variance of the resident freshwater populations. Geographic isolation was negatively correlated with morphological variance in a majority of the analysed traits. Both selection and gene flow surrogates were found to be important influences on variance in morphology, though selection had a larger effect, especially on armour traits. It was concluded that gene flow appeared to constrain ecological speciation, but even in the presence of gene flow the strong selection in the freshwater environment was apparently leading to rapid divergence.

in this example, the alaskan earthquake of 1964 separated populations of these small fish into new drainage basins, and founder effects plus environmental differences parallel changes in heritable morphology.

^^^this is evolution, by definition, and it happened under the observation of biologists in alaska who were curious enough to go look and see it happening.

the populations are diverging, but gene flow between them is slowing the rate of change. this is how evolution is thought to work, and it's happening here in perfectly ordinary alaskan streams that anyone can go look at.

theory predicts that speciation will eventually occur if the rate of divergence is greater than the swamping effect of gene flow. looking at the fish in another 50 years might or might not reveal new species.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2017, 03:12:19 PM »
here's another example of what might be speciation. this one is fascinating, because it was a bunch of biologists who took five pairs of lizards and set them loose on a small croation island. then there was war, and nobody could go back. 34 years later, people went back, and found that the introduced lizards had displaced the original residents.

but the introduced lizards were different from what they had been. evolution had occurred in just 34 years:

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The new habitat once had its own healthy population of lizards, which were less aggressive than the new implants, Irschick said.

The new species wiped out the indigenous lizard populations, although how it happened is unknown, he said.

The transplanted lizards adapted to their new environment in ways that expedited their evolution physically, Irschick explained.

Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on. Physically, however, the lizards were not built to digest a vegetarian diet.

Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."

Along with the ability to digest plants came the ability to bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider.

so far these are just observations of what's there, morphologically. nobody has done the genetic work yet to see what's happening at the chromosomal level, and nobody has yet done the work to see whether there's a different species or not.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: modern-day examples of speciation
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 08:32:27 PM »
here's an interesting case of divergence. the changes going on here are all microevolutionary, until sooner or later morphology is different enough or reproductive isolation is efficient enough to call the event macroevolution.

macroevolution is just lots of microevolutionary events added together. you get to pick which ones to group together to define a major change.

The Central European blackcap

The Central European blackcap spends its summers in Germany and Austria and, until the 1960s, had spent its winters in balmy Spain. About 50 years ago, however, backyard bird feeding became popular in Britain. With a ready supply of food waiting for them in Britain, blackcaps that happened to carry genes that caused them to migrate northwest, instead of southwest to Spain, were able to survive and return to their summer breeding grounds in central Europe. Over time, the proportion of the population carrying northwest-migrating genes has increased. Today, about 10% of the population winters in Britain instead of Spain.

This change in migration pattern has led to a shift in mate availability. The northwest route is shorter than the southwest route, so the northwest-migrating birds get back to Germany sooner each summer. Since blackcaps choose a mate for the season when they arrive at the breeding grounds, the birds tend to mate with others that follow the same migration route.

In December of 2009, researchers from Germany and Canada confirmed that these migration and mating shifts have led to subtle differences between the two parts of the population. The splinter group has evolved rounder wings and narrower, longer beaks than their southward-flying brethren. The researchers hypothesize that both of these traits evolved via natural selection. Pointier wings are favored in birds that must travel longer distances, and rounder wings, which increase maneuverability, are favored when distance is less of an issue — as it is for the northwest migrators. Changes in beak size may be related to the food available to each sub-population: fruit for birds wintering in Spain and seeds and suet from garden feeders for birds wintering in Britain. The northwest migrators' narrower, longer beaks may allow them to better take advantage of all the different sorts of foods they wind up eating in the course of a year. These differences have evolved in just 30 generations and could signify the beginning of a speciation event.

***********

the changes are real--evolution has occurred, and we have been able to see it happen. the causes are speculative-- perhaps natural selection, perhaps not.


"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

 

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