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Online ak.yonathan

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Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« on: May 06, 2017, 02:15:47 PM »
I have read a lot of material on this forum about morality, especially discussions concerning whether or not there exists an objective form of it. I would say that if there does exist an objective morality than the universe itself would reward anyone who performs it and punish anyone who should dare go against it. Let's say that torturing people is objectively good. If that's true than the whole universe would strive towards that goal, it would actively try to torture people, even though it itself is not sentient. Do we see something like that going on? I say this because I think that is what objective morality is supposed to be like. If you have a different opinion than by all means state it.

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Offline catwixen

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 03:40:46 PM »
Well because morality is made up by humans, i do not see how it can be objective.
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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 03:45:12 PM »
Well because morality is made up by humans, i do not see how it can be objective.
What if there were an absolute standard for which we could measure morality against? (Btw, this standard has nothing to do with God.)

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Offline catwixen

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 04:04:54 PM »
Where does this absolute standard come from?
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Offline catwixen

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 04:07:45 PM »
hmmm your OP seems to be suggesting a universal objective morality. I just don't get that. More a universal action/ consequence going on. Nothing to do with morality.
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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 05:38:09 PM »
Where does this absolute standard come from?
This standard comes from reality itself, what reality seeks to achieve. Perhaps you believe in fate/destiny? Well, whatever is fated for us that is the standard to measure morality against. Let's say we're destined to fail at whatever we set our hearts on, well then that would mean that torturing people is objectively good.

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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 05:43:53 PM »
hmmm your OP seems to be suggesting a universal objective morality. I just don't get that. More a universal action/ consequence going on. Nothing to do with morality.
But if that is what the universe is trying to do, than doesn't that mean that we could judge morality based upon it? (I don't know, that is just my opinion.)

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Offline Valyza1

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2017, 05:10:45 AM »
I have read a lot of material on this forum about morality, especially discussions concerning whether or not there exists an objective form of it. I would say that if there does exist an objective morality than the universe itself would reward anyone who performs it and punish anyone who should dare go against it. Let's say that torturing people is objectively good. If that's true than the whole universe would strive towards that goal, it would actively try to torture people, even though it itself is not sentient. Do we see something like that going on? I say this because I think that is what objective morality is supposed to be like. If you have a different opinion than by all means state it.

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If torturing people were objectively good, then wouldn't the universe punish people irrespective of their actions?  If the universe rewarded people for anything, it would be working against it's own standard of morality, namely torturing people.


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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2017, 05:41:41 AM »
I have read a lot of material on this forum about morality, especially discussions concerning whether or not there exists an objective form of it. I would say that if there does exist an objective morality than the universe itself would reward anyone who performs it and punish anyone who should dare go against it. Let's say that torturing people is objectively good. If that's true than the whole universe would strive towards that goal, it would actively try to torture people, even though it itself is not sentient. Do we see something like that going on? I say this because I think that is what objective morality is supposed to be like. If you have a different opinion than by all means state it.

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If torturing people were objectively good, then wouldn't the universe punish people irrespective of their actions?  If the universe rewarded people for anything, it would be working against it's own standard of morality, namely torturing people.


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Maybe I should have said it another way, the universe makes it so that no one gets what they want and they get other things which they do not want.

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Offline BlackLight

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2017, 08:03:51 AM »
There's an objective basis for determining the moral value of certain actions, but I don't think the notion of an "objective morality" has any real meaning beyond that. If you can imagine a plausible (to say nothing of implausible) exception to basically every moral precept, then I don't think morality can be objective. Or if we insist that it can, then I don't know what that can really mean.
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Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2017, 02:45:26 PM »
This standard comes from reality itself, what reality seeks to achieve. Perhaps you believe in fate/destiny? Well, whatever is fated for us that is the standard to measure morality against.

yonathan, in hindusim, karma is an irrevocable force of nature, one that is impartial, blind, inescapable, and imposed on mortals and gods alike.

the hindu universe possesses an inanimate standard of morality, not really classifiable as good or bad, and if one's behavior is in accord with it, certain elevations will inevitably occur during transmigration. if one departs from it, certain depressions in one's state of existence will occur, equally inevitably.

is this similar to what you are suggesting?
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Offline davdi

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2017, 01:00:34 AM »
Defined as the opposite of subjective, explaining that here subject means individual or personal and that objective would mean object, or something other than the personal, the idea seems to have a third step in there that is assumed, not explained. 

I would think that to be moral requires a certain amount of consciousness.  An awareness of what is required for basic existence.   

In the same sense that I don't speak dog or cat, I don't speak tree or rock, or, for that matter, universe. 

In suggesting that the universe performs the basic function of life, e.g. growing and eating (black holes doing the consumption), it would be easy to think that the universe has some expectation of what is good and what is not good.   

I don't think the universe is sentient in that way. 

While Kevin is right that karma is a Hindu understanding, it is also based on a certain principle.  Dharma is art of fulfilling ones given purpose on earth.  Who you are in life requires certain things from you.  Karma is nice to those who fulfill their dharma.  If a flea bites you, getting enough sustenance to procreation its own kind, it has fulfilled its dharma.  While you may disagree that the flea is doing good, it, according to that perspective, is doing good!   

But as far as a strictly objective morality, you set yourself the task of defining good and evil in each of those situations. 
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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 08:34:34 AM »
This standard comes from reality itself, what reality seeks to achieve. Perhaps you believe in fate/destiny? Well, whatever is fated for us that is the standard to measure morality against.

yonathan, in hindusim, karma is an irrevocable force of nature, one that is impartial, blind, inescapable, and imposed on mortals and gods alike.

the hindu universe possesses an inanimate standard of morality, not really classifiable as good or bad, and if one's behavior is in accord with it, certain elevations will inevitably occur during transmigration. if one departs from it, certain depressions in one's state of existence will occur, equally inevitably.

is this similar to what you are suggesting?
Yeah, I suppose so.

Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2017, 10:29:29 AM »
no reason why the pattern must conform to the hindu model. perhaps right and wrong are absolutes, fixed aspects of the universe. no supernatural necessary.

in that case behavior might be judged as right or wrong in the same dispassionate way tbat we might observe behavior to be slow or rapid, or safe versus dangerous.
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Offline RegalSin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 04:07:11 AM »
MY response is shut ____ Q!#@!@ up and get back to work. Morality smorality. We live in capitalism titi talk does not cut it.

I mean let be good towards a goal. All of that stuff should have been figured out from the moment you decided to make any independent decision.

You going to spend eons talking to people in groups when a huge chunk of there lives is dependent on somebody else. Five seconds on this idea of
Philosophy? Does it pay well and if so does it make any logic sense?

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2017, 05:01:20 AM »


 

While Kevin is right that karma is a Hindu understanding, it is also based on a certain principle.  Dharma is art of fulfilling ones given purpose on earth.  Who you are in life requires certain things from you.  Karma is nice to those who fulfill their dharma.  If a flea bites you, getting enough sustenance to procreation its own kind, it has fulfilled its dharma.  While you may disagree that the flea is doing good, it, according to that perspective, is doing good!   

 
Where did you get that information?



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Offline davdi

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2017, 09:33:57 PM »
Not only from a book but also from research into Hindu theology.   Oh, excuse me, I also lived in India for 20 years.
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Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2017, 11:22:21 PM »
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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2017, 03:55:29 AM »
Not only from a book but also from research into Hindu theology.   Oh, excuse me, I also lived in India for 20 years.
Still, that doesn't mean that what you know is correct.

Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2017, 02:02:58 PM »
is he wrong, yonathan?
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 03:16:30 PM »
Well because morality is made up by humans, i do not see how it can be objective.

Seconding. That's how I see things also.
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Offline davdi

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2017, 04:20:44 PM »
Not only from a book but also from research into Hindu theology.   Oh, excuse me, I also lived in India for 20 years.
Still, that doesn't mean that what you know is correct.

You are right, ak, because dharma has a multiple of meanings.  When it comes to the caste system, the Laws of Manu apply and basically the common understanding of it among Hindus is following your system.

"The meaning of word “dharma” depends on the context, and its meaning evolved as ideas of Hinduism developed over its long history. In earliest texts and ancient myths of Hinduism, dharma meant cosmic law, the rules that created the universe from chaos, as well as rituals; In later Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas and the Epics, the meaning became refined, richer, complex and the word dharma was applied to diverse contexts.[13] In certain contexts, dharma designates human behaviours considered necessary for order of things in the universe, principles that prevent chaos, behaviours and action necessary to all life in nature, society, family as well as at the individual level.][10][13][25][note 1] Dharma encompasses ideas such as duty, rights, character, vocation, religion, customs and all behaviour considered appropriate, correct or morally upright.[26]

The antonym of dharma is adharma (Sanskrit: अधर्म),[27] meaning that which is “not dharma”. As with dharma, the word adharma includes and implies many ideas; in common parlance, adharma means that which is against nature, immoral, unethical, wrong or unlawful.[28]"

How this relates to karma is maybe a little easier to explain.  In the West there are several statements that might be similar to the concept of karma.   "Actions have consequences", "birds of a feather flock together" are just two of them.  Karma is based on the idea that what you do affects your future.  That's why I resisted the use of + - system here.  Karma is the worst word for it because the justice that karma effects is not directed by others but by cosmic laws.   That's why Kevin responded to you about this.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into the works, here's what WIKI says about karma

"Karma, also refers to a conceptual principle that originated in India, often descriptively called the principle of karma, sometimes as the karma theory or the law of karma.[10] In the context of theory, karma is complex and difficult to define.[11] Different schools of Indologists derive different definitions for the karma concept from ancient Indian texts; their definition is some combination of (1) causality that may be ethical or non-ethical; (2) ethicization, that is good or bad actions have consequences; and (3) rebirth.[11][12] Other Indologists include in the definition of karma theory that which explains the present circumstances of an individual with reference to his or her actions in past. These actions may be those in a person's current life, or, in some schools of Indian traditions, possibly actions in their past lives; furthermore, the consequences may result in current life, or a person's future lives.[11][13] The law of karma operates independent of any deity or any process of divine judgment.[14]".

« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 04:34:14 PM by davdi »
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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2017, 03:07:37 AM »
is he wrong, yonathan?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that, since I consider that to be arrogance, I just happen to disagree with him, that's all. To the best of my knowledge karma is nice to those who go out of their way to sacrifice themselves with the intention of helping others. Notice how motivation is a very important factor which determines the outcome of your karma.

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Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2017, 08:49:19 AM »
in tbe gita, it was arjuna's dharma to go to war with his relatves and kill them, because it was his duty as part of the natural order.

maintaining compassion would have resulted in negative karma.

ehat about the effects of karma on non-humsns? invrrtebrates, for example.
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Offline davdi

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2017, 05:00:36 PM »
is he wrong, yonathan?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that, since I consider that to be arrogance, I just happen to disagree with him, that's all. To the best of my knowledge karma is nice to those who go out of their way to sacrifice themselves with the intention of helping others. Notice how motivation is a very important factor which determines the outcome of your karma.

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What you do in this life is your dharma, not karma.  I don't personalize karma because it is not effecting anything, it is an affect for when you are remembered.   That sounds horrible in English. 

What you are reaching for is adequately defined by dharma.   
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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2017, 03:43:57 AM »
in tbe gita, it was arjuna's dharma to go to war with his relatves and kill them, because it was his duty as part of the natural order.

maintaining compassion would have resulted in negative karma.
Hmm, well maybe it's not karma that I have in mind.
ehat about the effects of karma on non-humsns? invrrtebrates, for example.
As far as I know karma affects all things equally, even objects which do not have sentience, it's just that those objects might not be able to feel its effects.

Offline davdi

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2017, 03:22:25 AM »
In hind sight you might say that Hinduism takes the stance that all things should n earth have purpose and location. 

I hoe you, ak. and Kevin will respond to this.

When I was young, before my teens, I as surrounded by the people of India.   The closest white family was miles away, at least 25 miles.   My three sisters and I thought of ourselves as Indians.  When asked our preference in '56, we all said we wanted to go back home to India.  7 years later I stood at the entrance to a park in Amsterdam, looked around and said to myself "what are all these white people doing here"! The next thought was, "I'm back in that part of the world"! 

This is preliminary to saying that in Hinduism you are who you are because of who you are.  In reincarnation you have progressed to the human because in you past lives you were "good", IOW you fulfilled your dharma.   There are only slight parallels to Confucianism, and the two were born out of very different circumstances.  The "rules" by which a Hindu is supposed to act are set out for each in the "Laws of Manu"!   But the whole basis for it is that the cosmos functions in harmony, despite black holes and galactic collisions, and that harmony gives its aspect to the roles to be played out in human existence. 
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Online ak.yonathan

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2017, 11:55:28 AM »
In hind sight you might say that Hinduism takes the stance that all things should n earth have purpose and location. 

I hoe you, ak. and Kevin will respond to this.

When I was young, before my teens, I as surrounded by the people of India.   The closest white family was miles away, at least 25 miles.   My three sisters and I thought of ourselves as Indians.  When asked our preference in '56, we all said we wanted to go back home to India.  7 years later I stood at the entrance to a park in Amsterdam, looked around and said to myself "what are all these white people doing here"! The next thought was, "I'm back in that part of the world"! 

This is preliminary to saying that in Hinduism you are who you are because of who you are.  In reincarnation you have progressed to the human because in you past lives you were "good", IOW you fulfilled your dharma.   There are only slight parallels to Confucianism, and the two were born out of very different circumstances.  The "rules" by which a Hindu is supposed to act are set out for each in the "Laws of Manu"!   But the whole basis for it is that the cosmos functions in harmony, despite black holes and galactic collisions, and that harmony gives its aspect to the roles to be played out in human existence.
I don't know why you want me to respond to this, but here goes. I have a question to ask. While I agree that everything has a purpose in life, what if we misunderstand that purpose? As for location, I don't think that things are supposed to be limited geographically.

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Offline kevin

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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2017, 12:48:13 PM »
isnt timing as important as purpose ane location?

i remember walking down the streets of a small oklahoma town when i returned to america, and marveling at the language. everybody spoke english. very odd.
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Re: Is there such a thing as objective morality?
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2017, 01:27:26 PM »
isnt timing as important as purpose ane location?

i remember walking down the streets of a small oklahoma town when i returned to america, and marveling at the language. everybody spoke english. very odd.
You'll have to explain further, because I don't get you. Why I think that location isn't important might be explained by the following example. The teachings of Confucius originated in China, right? And Islam originated in the Middle East, right? Well, should those two teachings be confined to their original locations? I think not. If there are other suitable locations where those teachings are applicable, then why not there? We can see how now many people in America are embracing Islam and Confucianism. (With this I also hope to dispel the myth that Islam and Western civilization are incompatible.)

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