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Offline davdi

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Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« on: March 20, 2017, 07:07:17 PM »
Keeping in mind that institutions form their own particular prejudices, this question is a sore one in many circles.

Given that Christianity makes exclusive claims is it fair to assume that all who haven't had the chance to hear the Gispel are going to hell?

I was looking for a section in Romans where Paul deals with this subject.   As I recall he says that those who lived by the guidance of their conscience would be justified by their conscience before God.  Don't quote me on that, I'll have to find it first.   

In the past I have rejected Paul's use of nature as a source of revelation.   But the more I hear from theoretical physicists the more I begin to think that Paul was right.  HE aside, and the protestations of others, the heavens domdeclare the glory of God.   

I think Christians have something wrong.  I have always responded to the question of someone going to hell or nat by saying that God didn't put me on that committee, or that I am more than happy to leave that dicision in God's very capable hands.

But, there is a proviso!   

Christianity begins with the affirmation, και ανΦροπο γενετο αυτού!   My favorite Gospel, second to John's, is Isaiah.   One way that some look on it is that whole of Torah is pointing toward Jesus.  The Jews feel very differently about that and so I remain basically mute on that subject. 

Oh!  The Greek means, "and was made man". 

To me that is a powerful and foundational statement.  All other statement have their genesis there.  So I have to begin from the position that God is real.  But, as I said, right at the start, I have NO knowledge of what God looks like, and if I did think that God looks this way or that way, that is idolatry and very wrong. 

So, who gets to heaven, I am very glad to leave that in God's very capable hands.

Advice to composer, if you cannot address this logically, instead of your usual "drivel" stay away. 
« Last Edit: March 20, 2017, 07:33:58 PM by davdi »
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Offline Boots

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 08:46:31 PM »
I'll stay out of this deep discussion, because I have no idea what you want to actually discuss.
Religion=institutionalized superstition

Apologetics=the art of making s**t up to make other made-up s**t sound more plausible

"To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place."

~Sam Harris

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 10:11:42 PM »
To simplify somewhat, I am wanting to challenge Christians on two fronts.  What do you actually believe and what is the reason for your belief? 
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Offline GratefulApe

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 11:17:26 PM »
 ||popcorn||
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:59:27 AM by GratefulApe »
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Offline Goombah

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 11:33:09 PM »
Keeping in mind that institutions form their own particular prejudices, this question is a sore one in many circles.

Given that Christianity makes exclusive claims is it fair to assume that all who haven't had the chance to hear the Gispel are going to hell?
I don't adhere to that teaching.
Quote
I was looking for a section in Romans where Paul deals with this subject.   As I recall he says that those who lived by the guidance of their conscience would be justified by their conscience before God.  Don't quote me on that, I'll have to find it first.   

In the past I have rejected Paul's use of nature as a source of revelation.   But the more I hear from theoretical physicists the more I begin to think that Paul was right.  HE aside, and the protestations of others, the heavens domdeclare the glory of God.   
I agree with that 100%
Quote
I think Christians have something wrong.  I have always responded to the question of someone going to hell or nat by saying that God didn't put me on that committee, or that I am more than happy to leave that dicision in God's very capable hands.
Good call.

Quote
But, there is a proviso!   

Christianity begins with the affirmation, και ανΦροπο γενετο αυτού!   My favorite Gospel, second to John's, is Isaiah.   One way that some look on it is that whole of Torah is pointing toward Jesus.  The Jews feel very differently about that and so I remain basically mute on that subject. 

At the beginning of the Church all of the Christians were Jews even adding 3000 of them in one day!
Acts 2:41
“Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
Quote
Oh!  The Greek means, "and was made man". 

To me that is a powerful and foundational statement.  All other statement have their genesis there.  So I have to begin from the position that God is real.  But, as I said, right at the start, I have NO knowledge of what God looks like, and if I did think that God looks this way or that way, that is idolatry and very wrong. 

So, who gets to heaven, I am very glad to leave that in God's very capable hands.
great advice Davdi.

Fuggetaboutit.

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 12:41:10 AM »
Hi, Goombah, good to hear from you. 

Seriously, the major reasons I have from atheists for their disavowal of god is how Christians behave.  For me the scales are balanced.  But the truth is we are a distempered lot.   And the truth is that god knew it, too! 

But the problem with Christianity is that our moral truth is far too often subjected to institutional standards.  We got that from what I think is a very basic misreading of Paul!   
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Online composer

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 01:17:19 AM »
Advice to composer, if you cannot address this logically, instead of your usual "drivel" stay away.
||think||

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate that I have ever presented drivel?  ||whistling||

You are always welcome to try!  ||wink||

Your Vindicated Mentor, Vindicated Saviour & Vindicated Benevolent, Wise, Vindicated Redeemer, Vindicated Moi!

 ||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 03:50:14 AM »
Maybe you can find a better definition of drivel, but for me it is the vain repetition of meaningless words sponsored by an average mind. 

If you wish to participate, composer, do so in a logical and meaningful way.  Please, no contrivance!  It might become you, but in my opinion you are selling your self very short, unless you have a mental deficiency. 

Nasty of me to say, I know, but your usual comes across as preteens shouting on the playground at lunch. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 04:05:51 AM by davdi »
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Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 04:01:34 AM »
To continue my tirade on the church, the sense of confidence that is given to those who want it creates in beleivers an overbearing sense of privilege that is uncalled for.   

I think it is from the nature of the medieval church when wrong was called right and the rulers of the church in the west, even the Protestant, the separatists and the papist dug deep holes for themselves and have yet to escape them.   

Every new denomination takes up the cause.  The reasons are personal and have little to do with the teachings of Christ. 

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Online composer

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 04:44:17 AM »
Maybe you can find a better definition of drivel, but for me it is the vain repetition of meaningless words sponsored by an average mind. 
||think||

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate my words are ' meaningless? '.

Like other's here, you attack people personally, but fail to show what they say isn't reality!

 ||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 04:51:48 AM »
Maybe you can find a better definition of drivel, but for me it is the vain repetition of meaningless words sponsored by an average mind. 
||think||

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate my words are ' meaningless? '.

Like other's here, you attack people personally, but fail to show what they say isn't reality!

 ||popcorn||

Go ahead and prop yourself up. Nobody else in your life will do it for you now. Why do you feel the need to try and tear other people down?
If they respected America they would have broken the law and came here illegally.

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 05:18:51 AM »
Why do you feel the need to try and tear other people down?
||think||

I successfully tear down religions/religious beliefs and YOU & Co. are defenceless against Moi!  ||razz||  ||whistling||

 ||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2017, 08:13:54 AM »
Advice to composer, if you cannot address this logically, instead of your usual "drivel" stay away.
||think||

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate that I have ever presented drivel?  ||whistling||

You are always welcome to try!  ||wink||

Your Vindicated Mentor, Vindicated Saviour & Vindicated Benevolent, Wise, Vindicated Redeemer, Vindicated Moi!

Just as some people at 'self-vindicated', there are truths that are 'self-evident'.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." - Thomas Jefferson.

Offline bad actor

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2017, 08:42:51 AM »
Maybe you can find a better definition of drivel, but for me it is the vain repetition of meaningless words sponsored by an average mind. 
||think||

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate my words are ' meaningless? '.

Like other's here, you attack people personally, but fail to show what they say isn't reality!

 ||popcorn||

Go ahead and prop yourself up. Nobody else in your life will do it for you now. Why do you feel the need to try and tear other people down?

Actually, I would say it was Davdi who was being the d**khead in this particular thread. Composer hadn't said a word. Davdi also did the personal tearing down.

My completely unsolicitated 2 cents. ||smiley||
“There are two ways to get enough. One is to continue to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.” —G.K. Chesterton

Offline Emma286

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 09:23:30 AM »
You may want to think about the things written in these pages:

https://godisimaginary.com/i18.htm

https://godisimaginary.com/i27.htm
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

Albert Einstein

Offline Emma286

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 09:24:18 AM »
In my strong view nobody gets to go to heaven or hell - because these places are imaginary.
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

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Offline Boots

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 08:12:54 PM »
Seriously, the major reasons I have from atheists for their disavowal of god is how Christians behave. 

for me, my disavowal of god is because there is not sufficient evidence to demonstrate this creature's existence--no need to bring any specific religious practitioners' behavior into it.
Religion=institutionalized superstition

Apologetics=the art of making s**t up to make other made-up s**t sound more plausible

"To not believe in god is to know that it falls to us to make the world a better place."

~Sam Harris

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 10:17:44 PM »


Actually, I would say it was Davdi who was being the d**khead in this particular thread. Composer hadn't said a word. Davdi also did the personal tearing down.

My completely unsolicitated 2 cents. ||smiley||
[/quote]

How much experience have you had with composer, Bad Actor?  Not much apparently! 
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Offline wabbit111

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 10:49:34 PM »


Actually, I would say it was Davdi who was being the d**khead in this particular thread. Composer hadn't said a word. Davdi also did the personal tearing down.

My completely unsolicitated 2 cents. ||smiley||

How much experience have you had with composer, Bad Actor?  Not much apparently!
[/quote]

We can all read, Bad Actor included. His unsolicited 2 cents were spot on.
Don't quote me on that........

Offline bad actor

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 11:07:55 PM »


Actually, I would say it was Davdi who was being the d**khead in this particular thread. Composer hadn't said a word. Davdi also did the personal tearing down.

My completely unsolicitated 2 cents. ||smiley||

How much experience have you had with composer, Bad Actor?  Not much apparently!

Well, first off I would like to say I should have said "jerk" or something a little more civil than "d**khead"...so excuse me for being vulgar. I try to watch that...especially in the religion section.

With that out of the way...

I get that Composers style gets to people...especially believers. I've been reading this forum for years and I get it. He's going to respond every time, so why not put him on ignore?

It was jerky to call what he has to say "drivel".... I probably shouldn't have even commented. Sometimes I'm a little more spirited than other times and well... That's just me.

Feel free to call me out if you think I am ever being unfair...or being a jerk.. It's bound to happen... ||smiley||
“There are two ways to get enough. One is to continue to accumulate more and more. The other is to desire less.” —G.K. Chesterton

Offline Goombah

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2017, 11:13:58 PM »
Hi, Goombah, good to hear from you. 

Seriously, the major reasons I have from atheists for their disavowal of god is how Christians behave.  For me the scales are balanced.  But the truth is we are a distempered lot.   And the truth is that god knew it, too! 

But the problem with Christianity is that our moral truth is far too often subjected to institutional standards.  We got that from what I think is a very basic misreading of Paul!

 True enough that atheists use Christian bad behavior as an excuse but they are personally accountable  to God for their own lives.I had plenty of excuses before I became a Christian - the' bad Christians' defense was only one of them.When I was confronted with the truth I realized how unsatisfactory they were.
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline Goombah

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 11:27:49 PM »
To continue my tirade on the church, the sense of confidence that is given to those who want it creates in beleivers an overbearing sense of privilege that is uncalled for.

 We develop a sense of entitlement  that hasn't been bestowed on us.Overcoming that requires personal growth and maturity.
   
Quote
I think it is from the nature of the medieval church when wrong was called right and the rulers of the church in the west, even the Protestant, the separatists and the papist dug deep holes for themselves and have yet to escape them.   

Every new denomination takes up the cause.  The reasons are personal and have little to do with the teachings of Christ.

I try and follow the church in 2nd and 3rd world countries to keep a better perspective on where God is moving and the Church is growing.There are many incredible testimonies and conversions as well as deliverances that strengthen ones faith.
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline none

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 12:24:13 AM »
True enough that atheists use Christian bad behavior as an excuse but they are personally accountable  to God for their own lives.
Atheists use what as an excuse for what?
If you dont want to believe in sin dont believe in the supernatural
If you read the Bible backwards everybody lives
First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.
God is s comedian and you are his joke.

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 02:44:35 AM »
The bad behaviour Christians to discount the existence of God!   

Some even use human nature and the natural world as examples of how the assimilate facts to show that god can't be benevolent.   

My take on that is, "haters gonna hate"!   

Then begin with the proposition "why is there something"!   I would say, "so that you can ask such an irrelevant question"!  There is something because there is something!

Saying that belief in God is like belief in Santa Claus is a classical error like trying to compare stones and tomatoes.  That they exist in the imagination of people doesn't mean that those who do are gullible.  Since I was seven I believed in God and knewSanta Claus was fictional.   I've admitted above that I agree that God is imaginary because I've never seen God, but he has spoken to me on numerous occasions and all of them were leading me in the right direction. 


Bad Actor, what I will say about composer is that I have tried to get him to be reasonable with but he refuses, passing on the same drivel over and over again.  Even the worst of comics know to alter the direction of their humor.  He refuses!  I would welcome a logical discussion from him, but as yet he declines. 


The reason I say institutions are"wrong" is that they specialize in theological propositions.  And most of them are cause to reject other theological propositions!   

TULIP, the foundational structure of the Reformation was a necessary step (the battle of Kulikova and WWII come to mind) and the Roman Church saw the logic of it and made adjustments, but the cat was out of the bag and the devil reared his head in the details.   

To extend that image, the selling out of the church to both political parties is just as evil an assignment.   But it is the privilege of the individual believers to walk whichever path they choose!

All of that aside.

This next section is going to be about human freedom and the development of the individual!  Then I hope to come around to a better understanding of my view of Christianity. 
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Offline none

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 02:45:54 AM »
Well, well, well, and that is a deep discussion
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 02:51:07 AM by none »
If you dont want to believe in sin dont believe in the supernatural
If you read the Bible backwards everybody lives
First I told my imaginary friend about Jesus, then I told Jesus about my imaginary friend.
God is s comedian and you are his joke.

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 03:49:19 AM »
Bad Actor, what I will say about composer is that I have tried to get him to be reasonable with but he refuses, passing on the same drivel over and over again. 
||think||

We are still waiting your proofs that what I have said over the many years is ' drivel '?  ||razz||

Pertinent Links required should you feel you have something to offer, apart from your false accusations?

Vindicated Moi is always ready for you & Co. any time still!  ||whistling||

Meanwhile you & Co. remain false accusers!

 ||popcorn||
Your alleged gods are very bad god persons, I am offering them the chance to become good god persons for the very first time, but only after they admit they are bad god persons and want to try again.

Offline davdi

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 04:54:02 AM »
Like I said, come back when you grow up (com)poser! 
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Offline Goombah

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2017, 12:32:37 PM »
You may want to think about the things written in these pages:

https://godisimaginary.com/i18.htm

https://godisimaginary.com/i27.htm

 Not very convincing Emma.Seems like the author was grasping at straws-IMO.
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline Emma286

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 12:37:12 PM »
You may want to think about the things written in these pages:

https://godisimaginary.com/i18.htm

https://godisimaginary.com/i27.htm

 Not very convincing Emma.Seems like the author was grasping at straws-IMO.

Happy to hear your reasoning behind your opinion! :-)
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed."

Albert Einstein

Offline GratefulApe

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Re: Here begins what I hope will be a deep discussion!
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2017, 12:54:54 PM »
Well, well, well, and that is a deep discussion

LOL
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