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Offline Kusa

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Re: rights
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2016, 04:54:56 PM »
my understanding is they are concepts
This is very true. Animals don't comprehend rights. In the wild there are none, its dog eat dog so to speak.


Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2016, 05:09:47 PM »
there are no rights in the human world, either, kusa, based on the conversation here.

just what we can get away with.
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Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2016, 05:17:49 PM »
so based on this thread, there are two main opposing views, so far.

what are rights?

atheist: subjective privileges that exist only when defended.
theist: expressions of universal objective entitlements.

Quote
who has them?

atheist: those who can defend them
theist: those who exist

Quote
where do they come from?

atheist: personal opinion, or social consensus
theist: god

Quote
what consequences derive from them?

atheist: dog eat dog
theist: objective morality

is this correct, so far?
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2016, 06:33:08 PM »
the implications of this are interesting to me, specifically the connection between "rights" as entitlements and "right" as in one member of the dichotomy of "right and wrong." it's a shame the word "right" is used for both ideas, as it confuses people who don't see the relationship.

assume for the moment that there are things that are right and things that are wrong. take any example of something that is wrong to do, and you will find that it is wrong because it infringes on somebody else's rights.

is it wrong to kill? you abrogate someone else's right to live.

os it wrong to steal? you deny someone else's right to property.

is global warming wrong? you reduce the right of future generations to live safe and prosperous lives.

think of any example of something that is wrong, and it is wrong because somebody else's rights are being violated.

to the extent that right and wrong are associated with morality, it follows that morality is a code maintaining the balance of rights. therefore it is morally right to respect the rights of others (or, it is correct to respect their deserved entitlements), and it is morally wrong to infringe on them. all this is something that i think both theists and atheists can agree on.

so now take the next step. if right and wrong are subjective, such as they are in a non-theist universe (as explained to me here) then of course so are rights, because they depend completely upon the other.

this means that it doesn't matter what social chaos donald trump brings to the world, because no one has the right to say that what he does is wrong. no one has a right to object, although they may complain if they want.

this means that it doesn't matter whether the world's wildlife undergo mass extinctions, because there is nothing right or wrong about the matter to be concerned with.

world hunger? atrocities in aleppo? wife beating? mass executions? animal welfare?

theft?

lies?

hate?

none of this is wrong. you can choose to be concerned about it, personally, and you may attempt to force other people to adhere to your personal opinion, but there is no abstract quality of the universe that will back you up. what you can get is totally justified by what you can force to happen, no matter what it is you believe.

i think this is inescapable, but it isn't something that i hear non-theists spell out.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline none

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Re: rights
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2016, 07:22:35 PM »
assuming that allowing people to do what they want to do without hurting others is healthy and logical to the individual it is worth defending
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Offline Kusa

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Re: rights
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2016, 07:57:18 PM »
so based on this thread, there are two main opposing views, so far.

what are rights?

atheist: subjective privileges that exist only when defended.
theist: expressions of universal objective entitlements.

Quote
who has them?

atheist: those who can defend them
theist: those who exist

Quote
where do they come from?

atheist: personal opinion, or social consensus
theist: god

Quote
what consequences derive from them?

atheist: dog eat dog
theist: objective morality

is this correct, so far?

Yes

Offline Tom

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Re: rights
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2016, 09:26:16 PM »
Kevin, you are right, nobody has any rights.  However they have been granted certain liberties by which they can live their lives.

If anyone can demonstrate beyond any doubt that I have even just one right, then I will make that person the President of the USA in place of the replacement Trump fellow.

We do not have a right to a job?  That is a privilege granted to the person working within that job.  We do not have the right to drive a car?  That is a privilege granted to a person to drive a car by our society if and only if they do so responsibly.  Sadly all drivers fall down in that portion of the liberty granted to them.

Do we have a right to live?  No, that right can be removed from us either by another person who takes it upon themselves to kill us or through an act of God or simply through our own stupidity.  An act of God may be a lighting strike.  By our own stupidity may simply be swimming out into the ocean without any support group for when we get into difficulties to rescue us from our own stupidity.

Society grants us many privileges but with these privileges comes the requirement to act responsibly within the privilege granted to us otherwise that privilege is removed from us.

Our freedom is a completely different issue because it is spiritual and it is something that cannot be forced from us but we can be encouraged or enticed to give it up.

Sadly, the present day usage of the word "freedom" is that I can do whatever WE LIKE,  without any regard to anybody else or the consequences to them of our actions.

Sadly, this view may be tooooooooo DEEP and DIIFFICULT to understand for those on this forum.

Shalom   

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2016, 11:04:25 PM »
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2016, 11:10:05 PM »
Kevin, you are right, nobody has any rights.  However they have been granted certain liberties by which they can live their lives.

sure. if i understand you, these liberties are freedoms granted by a society (a government, perhaps) that can also take them away.

Quote
Do we have a right to live?  No, that right can be removed from us either by another person who takes it upon themselves to kill us or through an act of God or simply through our own stupidity.  An act of God may be a lighting strike.  By our own stupidity may simply be swimming out into the ocean without any support group for when we get into difficulties to rescue us from our own stupidity.

i would say that we can have our right to life violated, even if we still maintain it. and suicide was apparently a crime as late as the 1980s in america, so the government even attempted to control that. whether we actually have a right to life in the first place seems to depend on one's attitudes with respect to objective morality.

Quote
Our freedom is a completely different issue because it is spiritual and it is something that cannot be forced from us but we can be encouraged or enticed to give it up.

freedom in this usage is an inalienable right to self determination?
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Tom

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Re: rights
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2016, 01:41:33 AM »
Kevin, you are right, nobody has any rights.  However they have been granted certain liberties by which they can live their lives.

sure. if i understand you, these liberties are freedoms granted by a society (a government, perhaps) that can also take them away.

No, I am not speaking about "freedoms granted by society" but rather that society has granted that we are able to make "free choices."  The ability to make free choices is not "freedom" as I also indicated in my post that "freedom" is a spiritual quantity that resides within us.  Societies grant us conditional privileges that we may enjoy within that society.  It is not something that is automatically granted because we are a citizen within that society.

Do we have a right to live?  No, that "right" can be removed from us either by another person who takes it upon themselves to kill us or through an act of God or simply through our own stupidity.  An act of God may be a lighting strike.  By our own stupidity may simply be swimming out into the ocean without any support group for when we get into difficulties to rescue us from our own stupidity.

i would say that we can have our right to life violated, even if we still maintain it. and suicide was apparently a crime as late as the 1980s in america, so the government even attempted to control that. whether we actually have a right to life in the first place seems to depend on one's attitudes with respect to objective morality.

Kevin, no one has a "right" to anything. Full stop.  The term "right" is a construct to show that political parties are doing/have done something worth while for us and have labelled the created "Laws" as a right that we hold, but sadly that so called "right" is not automatically respected by those around us, and if it is not automatically respected by all those around us, then it is not then a "right."

Our freedom is a completely different issue because it is spiritual and it is something that cannot be forced from us but we can be encouraged or enticed to give it up.

freedom in this usage is an inalienable right to self determination?

Again, I can have the same "freedom" within America or Australia or Iraq or Iran or . . . . , because if my liberties are taken from me within these countries my freedom is not lost, I still retain it.

Even if I am put in front of a firing squad and killed within the countries listed above, my personal freedom is not lost by me because I pass from a physical life into a spiritual one and I retain the "freedom" that I had within the physical world.

In a court of law, a Judge tells a person being sentenced that his "freedom" is being removed from him for a certain period of time whereas the judge is putting him in a prison where a number of his liberties are curtailed for the time that he is in prison.  Because "freedom" is a spiritual entity, that cannot be taken from the prisoner while he is in prison.  The judge is using language poorly to convey a particular concept for the inherent loss of some of his liberties while he is in prison.

Also "freedom" is not "free choice" or "self determination" as you are suggesting.

Nowhere in the world does anyone have any "rights" because those so called "rights" are fleeting.

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2016, 04:04:37 AM »
are you saying that rights don't exist because they are not always respected? if so, i understand what you are saying.
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Offline Tom

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Re: rights
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2016, 05:36:43 AM »
Kevin, when people talk about their "freedom," they are talking about their ability to be able to made free choices about what they are intending to do.  Often this is without regard to the consequences of the choices that they may make and the impact that the choices may have on themselves and/or other people.

Freedom and rights are abused words that seem to roll off of a person's tongue with such ease that they rarely consider the message they are making bears no resemblance to the reality of being a good citizen of this little old globe.

I was not intending to close down any discussion on the said topic that you were making.

Offline Former Believer

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Re: rights
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2017, 11:51:25 AM »
Rights are social constructs which are subject to change and evolution, as is morality.
Don't sacrifice your mind at the altar of belief

Offline Kiahanie

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Re: rights
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2017, 05:35:46 PM »
Welcome back, FB.
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Offline Emma286

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Re: rights
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2017, 07:12:48 PM »
Rights are social constructs which are subject to change and evolution, as is morality.

Yeah, agreeing with this as well as with what None said. Rights are just human ideas in the way des described above.

What occurs to me is that they can certainly help make life easier for people, to a degree, but they can also impact negatively on people.

For example, take the right to social security. For people unable to work, being granted this right to
claim benefits makes the difference between receiving some income and none at all. For them
it makes life easier than if they weren't allowed it. On the other hand, this money comes out of working people's salaries. Because they have to pay tax towards this that's less money they're taking home - which means they're less well off than they'd otherwise be.
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Offline Former Believer

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Re: rights
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2017, 09:41:49 PM »
Welcome back, FB.

Thanks, Kiahanie!
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Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2017, 10:07:13 PM »
Rights are social constructs which are subject to change and evolution, as is morality.

hello FB. haven't seen you in a while. how's the family?

yes, what you say is correct, if you are not a believer.

if you are a believer, then rights have a different provenance.

the unstated assumption behind your assertion is that you do not believe that justice descends from god.

this seems to be the major division in the discussion of rights (and justice).
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Kiahanie

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Re: rights
« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2017, 07:54:44 PM »
Rights are social constructs which are subject to change and evolution, as is morality.

hello FB. haven't seen you in a while. how's the family?

yes, what you say is correct, if you are not a believer.

if you are a believer, then rights have a different provenance.

the unstated assumption behind your assertion is that you do not believe that justice descends from god.

this seems to be the major division in the discussion of rights (and justice).
Dead on, Kevin.

But I have to wonder whether "justice descends from god" is a necessary conclusion from a belief in a god. I suppose it depends on what kind of god one believes in.
If there were a little more silence, if we all kept quiet … maybe we could understand something. --Federico Fellini

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2017, 09:58:27 PM »
well, trickster gods by definition do not practice justice

loki, for example, was a deity (i think) who was mostly involved in injustice. the hindu gods are all intrinsically involved in justice because they are subject to karma, just like mortals. the greek gods seemed to be above it.

but if one believes in justice, then where can it come from aside from subjective personal preferences, or from a god? i can't think of anything except for those.

especially if one believes in a supernatural system like the norse. where did justice come from for them?
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Tom

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Re: rights
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2017, 10:09:10 PM »
If one want to see the number of "gods" operating in our world, one only has to look at signs like "road rage" where the rage of the "god" lashes out against the other driver for obstructing the will of this "god" to achieve his desired outcomes while on the road driving.  The road ragger has made himself out to be a "god" in his self centred mind and no one can dare object to his deity without suffering his wroth.

When we are inward looking we have placed ourselves as the centre of life in our special universe.

When we are outward looking we show compassion and caring for the people around us and even if we are not worshipping the true God, our actions still reflect the heart of God and His desire for people's well being.

So our "freedom" is a consequence of living in a right relationship with God.

Our liberties, and the rules associated with those liberties allow us to live in reasonable harmony with each other without any reference to God.  Anarchy only comes into play when the people ignore their responsibilities associated with their privileges and operate outside of the privileges that they have been given within the concept of our liberties.  That is to say, they operate as an inward looking, self centred, self important deity.

Offline none

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Re: rights
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2017, 10:46:02 PM »
Okay Tommy salami, what about rights?
I just don't understand the convolution in your words.
Like slavery and genocide, that should be enough of a contradiction to at least consider the notion of divinity harmful and absurd.
At least some kind of pause.. I'm just not seeing it
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 11:40:59 PM by none »
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Offline Tom

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Re: rights
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2017, 03:03:21 AM »
Okay Tommy salami, what about rights?
I just don't understand the convolution in your words.
Like slavery and genocide, that should be enough of a contradiction to at least consider the notion of divinity harmful and absurd.
At least some kind of pause.. I'm just not seeing it

I know that I have stated this before, but None, if you can demonstrate to me that  you have one "right", no matter how trivial it is, then I have the right to make you president of the USA without reference to the will of the people who reside in the USA and even though I am not a citizen of the USA.

Offline none

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Re: rights
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2017, 03:15:40 AM »
Ok define right, tell me what a "right" is...I might agree
If you dont want to believe in sin dont believe in the supernatural
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Offline Teaspoon Shallow

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Re: rights
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2017, 07:22:04 AM »
@kevin

Hi mate, long time no speak.  I have unfinished work with you in another thread somewhere and I will get back to it once I decide which career I will pursue so I can give up 86-90 hour per week plus family time.  (I have not been in the water for 2 1/2 months and have done nothing of fun that did not revolve around taking the kids places)

Can you explain to me the difference between a human construct of "rights" and a god construct of "rights" please?
What are the critical differences and why does it matter?

I have zero beliefs in a god as you know.  Rights to me are the conditions I want for everybody, not just myself.  I want every person to have the right to water, food, shelter, love, fair and equitable treatment that is consistent to all. 

This comes at a cost though and one I am willing to pay.  This means I have to work towards this goal and give up lots of my own privileges.  So there is a moral ought, if I want X, I must do Y to bring X into reality.  It is beyond my power to change everyone but I can help a number and hope others find value in the same goal and do the same. 

All of these different religions, some who care about human "rights" do something similar.  Others do not care for the moral "right", only for the bottom dollar.  There are many examples of this.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That’s the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2017, 10:08:55 AM »
hey teaspoon

whenever im in the position youre in now, i try to remind myself that life is finite, and every day thst you arent doing what you want to be doing is a day you will never get back. not to say that selfishness is a prime directive, just that a thoughtful life is full of decisions and finding balance is hsrd to do.

on rights, i see only two possibilities. first, if there is an entity that created the universe we live in, then right, wrong, and any human rights associaated with tbem exist as fundamental laws of the univers. like thelawof gravityor the speed of light in a vacuum., human rights just are. we can argue about interpretation, but not existence.

if there is no entity who enacts human rights in the way as it enacted natural laws, then right and wrong, and the human rightsasdociated with them, fall into the categaory of people "just making s**t up." this is a term often ysed by atheists regarding religion, and its worth using it here in exactly tbe same way.

if human rights are just s**t people make up, then there is no particularreason to be concerned about them, unless i just happen to want to at any given moment. just making s**t up is not a justification for imposing a moral code on somebody else (me, perhaps) who disagrees with it or just doesnt care. humans do impose moral codes on other people all the time, but whether humanitarian aid to starving africans is any different from killing jews in auschwitz is just a matter of opinion.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Teaspoon Shallow

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Re: rights
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2017, 10:45:39 AM »
hey teaspoon

whenever im in the position youre in now, i try to remind myself that life is finite, and every day thst you arent doing what you want to be doing is a day you will never get back. not to say that selfishness is a prime directive, just that a thoughtful life is full of decisions and finding balance is hsrd to do.

Cheers.  I am in a very fortunate position that I can switch careers and sell my company that I am getting bored with.  I will still keep my second business, not that it brings in much money but I really enjoy it.  My new career is only 40 hours in four days and only 39 weeks of the year.  It also provides an opportunity to help teens and young adults which has always interested me.

But to do this I need to keep my company rolling not just for the sale but for 6 months afterwards.  So I am working multiple jobs and about to start a diploma to so I can be skilled enough for the top job of my department in 3 plus years.  ||no||

on rights, i see only two possibilities. first, if there is an entity that created the universe we live in, then right, wrong, and any human rights associaated with tbem exist as fundamental laws of the univers. like thelawof gravityor the speed of light in a vacuum., human rights just are. we can argue about interpretation, but not existence.
What you have said there does not seem to follow.  If there is a god, that god has not necessarily scribed any moral laws.
But lets say it has, what standard has this god used to formulate these rights?  Has it just made crap up just like a human? 

God has thought, it would be more pleasant if these hairless apes would not kill, rape and beat each other.  So for X (pleasant existence) they ought to do Y (abstain from killing, raping and beating each other). 
To bring X into reality they ought to do Y. 
If you want to maintain your body weight (X), you ought to eat the same amount of energy as you use (Y)
Does it make it less true who made it up?


if there is no entity who enacts human rights in the way as it enacted natural laws, then right and wrong, and the human rightsasdociated with them, fall into the categaory of people "just making s**t up." this is a term often ysed by atheists regarding religion, and its worth using it here in exactly tbe same way.
Is cause and effect just made up crap or does it describe the relationship between an action and a consequence?
If you value X and want it to manifest in reality then you ought to do Y.

if human rights are just s**t people make up, then there is no particularreason to be concerned about them, unless i just happen to want to at any given moment. just making s**t up is not a justification for imposing a moral code on somebody else (me, perhaps) who disagrees with it or just doesnt care. humans do impose moral codes on other people all the time, but whether humanitarian aid to starving africans is any different from killing jews in auschwitz is just a matter of opinion.
I disagree with you there.  If you think murdering people is wrong, you don't get to say, well 99.9% of my time is spent not killing people but the 0.1%...... ||666||.   It seems you are saying similar to maths is a human construct (making crap up).  Sometimes I use maths to obtain the solution to a mathematical problem but if I don't feel like it, it's only human made up crap, I just guess the number.

I would say that is being irrational and seems to be of the same nature as your rights and oughts.

I should re-read this but I am tired and need sleep more.  I may have to correct the hell out of this on another day.

Talk later mate.
"If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would.    That’s the difference between me and your God." Tracie Harris

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2017, 12:05:22 AM »
way long day, no time, bud

recheck tomorrow

ciao
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: rights
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2017, 10:31:53 PM »

on rights, i see only two possibilities. first, if there is an entity that created the universe we live in, then right, wrong, and any human rights associaated with tbem exist as fundamental laws of the univers. like thelawof gravityor the speed of light in a vacuum., human rights just are. we can argue about interpretation, but not existence.
What you have said there does not seem to follow.  If there is a god, that god has not necessarily scribed any moral laws.
But lets say it has, what standard has this god used to formulate these rights?  Has it just made crap up just like a human? 

essentially, yes, in the same way that god has made up that the speed of light is 2.99x10(8) meters per second, or that the value of pi is 3.141592653589, or that the molecular weight of water is 18 or so. by setting up the universe, god imposes these structures, and right and wrong would be just another. of course, maybe god is a watchmaker, and doesn't care about right or wrong. could be true, but that doesn't change the fact that such an origin for right and wrong would still descend from god.

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God has thought, it would be more pleasant if these hairless apes would not kill, rape and beat each other.  So for X (pleasant existence) they ought to do Y (abstain from killing, raping and beating each other). 
To bring X into reality they ought to do Y. 
If you want to maintain your body weight (X), you ought to eat the same amount of energy as you use (Y)
Does it make it less true who made it up?

yes, absolutely. when god made it up, he would have made it happen. when we make it up, we just decide on any old s**t we want that makes us feel better, and other people decide on other s**t.

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I disagree with you there.  If you think murdering people is wrong, you don't get to say, well 99.9% of my time is spent not killing people but the 0.1%...... ||666||.   It seems you are saying similar to maths is a human construct (making crap up).  Sometimes I use maths to obtain the solution to a mathematical problem but if I don't feel like it, it's only human made up crap, I just guess the number.

I would say that is being irrational and seems to be of the same nature as your rights and oughts.

I should re-read this but I am tired and need sleep more.  I may have to correct the hell out of this on another day.

Talk later mate.

i'm not sure what you mean by ^^^this
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