Author Topic: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?  (Read 1199 times)  Share 

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Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2016, 02:31:44 PM »
The next question becomes is it inaccurate to insert Jehovah in Romans?  Does it change the meaning?   

Yes, I believe it does change the meaning. Paul refers to Christ as Lord throughout the whole passage. If he used the word Lord to describe Jehovah at the end of that passage, he is explicitly claiming that Christ is Jehovah. If he had not used Lord to describe Jehovah, he would seem to be talking about two different subjects: the Lord (Christ) and Jehovah.

I do agree that just having "Lord" is not the best choice of wording, but that's true no matter your interpretation.  That being the case you must use context to understand the meaning.  That's how I derive the meaning. 

Strange. I'm using context to determine the meaning and im coming up with a very different conclusion.

I am unclear on who you think Jehovah is.  I have a sense that you apply the name to the trinity.  Who do you think Jehovah is?

Yes, I believe Jehovah is the triune God. That is what I interpret Scripture to teach.
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 04:56:41 AM »
The next question becomes is it inaccurate to insert Jehovah in Romans?  Does it change the meaning?   

Yes, I believe it does change the meaning. Paul refers to Christ as Lord throughout the whole passage. If he used the word Lord to describe Jehovah at the end of that passage, he is explicitly claiming that Christ is Jehovah. If he had not used Lord to describe Jehovah, he would seem to be talking about two different subjects: the Lord (Christ) and Jehovah.

I do agree that just having "Lord" is not the best choice of wording, but that's true no matter your interpretation.  That being the case you must use context to understand the meaning.  That's how I derive the meaning. 

Strange. I'm using context to determine the meaning and im coming up with a very different conclusion.

I am unclear on who you think Jehovah is.  I have a sense that you apply the name to the trinity.  Who do you think Jehovah is?

Yes, I believe Jehovah is the triune God. That is what I interpret Scripture to teach.

You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 11:46:54 PM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 04:47:15 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?   
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2017, 08:16:04 AM »
No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Some believe that Jesus Christ is a triune personality; angel turned man turned spirit creature.

Not so, Jesus Christ is the Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Every knee shall bow to him in worship: Jesus Christ is God.

Every knee shall bow: yours, mine, every knee,

"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2

 

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2017, 07:49:13 PM »
Christ is Lord.  Already confessed.

Christ the Lord didn't say to pray to a trinity. 

Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2017, 12:09:42 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Both Jesus and Paul taught us to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2017, 04:48:57 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Both Jesus and Paul taught us to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

I agree, but your interpretation appears to create a contradiction by saying Paul is saying to call on Christ.

I hope you feeling better, btw.  And also, thanks for having a civil discussion.

Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2017, 04:52:48 PM »
In our prayers to the Father we call on the name of Christ. Right?

As Christ says in John's gospel, "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." We are praying to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, who is our advocate with the Father. In my understanding, Christian prayer has a Trinitarian format: We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The only name associated with prayer in the NT is Jesus Christ. The NT writers say nothing about praying to the Father in Jehovah's name, or anything about the name of the Father. The only name that seems relevant to them is Jesus Christ. Why would this be?

"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

 

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