Author Topic: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?  (Read 1344 times)  Share 

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Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2016, 02:31:44 PM »
The next question becomes is it inaccurate to insert Jehovah in Romans?  Does it change the meaning?   

Yes, I believe it does change the meaning. Paul refers to Christ as Lord throughout the whole passage. If he used the word Lord to describe Jehovah at the end of that passage, he is explicitly claiming that Christ is Jehovah. If he had not used Lord to describe Jehovah, he would seem to be talking about two different subjects: the Lord (Christ) and Jehovah.

I do agree that just having "Lord" is not the best choice of wording, but that's true no matter your interpretation.  That being the case you must use context to understand the meaning.  That's how I derive the meaning. 

Strange. I'm using context to determine the meaning and im coming up with a very different conclusion.

I am unclear on who you think Jehovah is.  I have a sense that you apply the name to the trinity.  Who do you think Jehovah is?

Yes, I believe Jehovah is the triune God. That is what I interpret Scripture to teach.
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 04:56:41 AM »
The next question becomes is it inaccurate to insert Jehovah in Romans?  Does it change the meaning?   

Yes, I believe it does change the meaning. Paul refers to Christ as Lord throughout the whole passage. If he used the word Lord to describe Jehovah at the end of that passage, he is explicitly claiming that Christ is Jehovah. If he had not used Lord to describe Jehovah, he would seem to be talking about two different subjects: the Lord (Christ) and Jehovah.

I do agree that just having "Lord" is not the best choice of wording, but that's true no matter your interpretation.  That being the case you must use context to understand the meaning.  That's how I derive the meaning. 

Strange. I'm using context to determine the meaning and im coming up with a very different conclusion.

I am unclear on who you think Jehovah is.  I have a sense that you apply the name to the trinity.  Who do you think Jehovah is?

Yes, I believe Jehovah is the triune God. That is what I interpret Scripture to teach.

You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 11:46:54 PM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2017, 04:47:15 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?   
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline eyeshaveit

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2017, 08:16:04 AM »
No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Some believe that Jesus Christ is a triune personality; angel turned man turned spirit creature.

Not so, Jesus Christ is the Triune God: Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Every knee shall bow to him in worship: Jesus Christ is God.

Every knee shall bow: yours, mine, every knee,

"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - Philippians 2

 

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2017, 07:49:13 PM »
Christ is Lord.  Already confessed.

Christ the Lord didn't say to pray to a trinity. 

Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2017, 12:09:42 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Both Jesus and Paul taught us to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2017, 04:48:57 AM »
You said you believe Romans is speaking about Jehovah.  I believe so too.  That is not "a very different conclusion".  Am I missing something?

I guess you could look at it that way. Yes, we both believe verse 13 is referring to Jehovah.

But I believe the passage is saying that Christ is Jehovah. Paul is talking about confessing Jesus as Lord. Then he quotes an Old Testament passage about Jehovah, saying all who call on the name of the Lord, which he just said is Jesus, will be saved. He's using language about Jehovah to refer to Christ. Sure, the names are not literally the same name, but it seems pretty obvious to me that he's saying Jesus Christ is Jehovah. And I really don't think I'm bending my interpretation to fit my theology. I'm reading the passage with an open, prayerful heart and that's the interpretation that makes sense.

No use beating a dead horse though. Maybe we could move on to another passage?

No there's no use beating a dead horse, but there is one thing left unaddressed.  I am assuming "calling on" means calling on in prayer since that is the only way to call upon God.  Christ taught to pray to the Father.  Joel taught to pray to Jehovah.  You believe Paul teaches to pray to Christ.

Do you see the contradiction?

Both Jesus and Paul taught us to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

I agree, but your interpretation appears to create a contradiction by saying Paul is saying to call on Christ.

I hope you feeling better, btw.  And also, thanks for having a civil discussion.

Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2017, 04:52:48 PM »
In our prayers to the Father we call on the name of Christ. Right?

As Christ says in John's gospel, "In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." We are praying to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, who is our advocate with the Father. In my understanding, Christian prayer has a Trinitarian format: We pray to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The only name associated with prayer in the NT is Jesus Christ. The NT writers say nothing about praying to the Father in Jehovah's name, or anything about the name of the Father. The only name that seems relevant to them is Jesus Christ. Why would this be?

"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Case

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 02:40:31 AM »
@Jstwebbrowsing

If you are still interested in this topic, I would like to talk about Jude 1:4-5. The NWT translates the passage as:

"My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith."

However, the NASB for instance, translates as: "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe."

And yet, still others, such as the ESV, translate: "For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."

In short, there are three ways the passage can be interpreted. It's either saying Jehovah, the Lord, or Jesus saved a people out of Egypt.

We possess some ancient manuscripts that say the Lord (kyrios) saved them out of Egypt, and we have some ancient manuscripts that say Jesus saved them out of Egypt. I'm assuming you think neither of the surviving manuscript texts are accurate. However, this is not a quotation from the OT, so in the absence of any manuscript evidence, is it ethical to translate this text using the name Jehovah?

If however, the original text used kyrios, the Lord, then it could be argued that it refers to Christ, because verse 4 says that Christ is "our only Master and Lord".

Any thoughts?
"You have formed us for Yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find rest in You." Augustine, Confessions, Book 1, Chapter 1

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 05:56:42 AM »
@Jstwebbrowsing

If you are still interested in this topic, I would like to talk about Jude 1:4-5. The NWT translates the passage as:

"My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith."

However, the NASB for instance, translates as: "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe."

And yet, still others, such as the ESV, translate: "For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."

In short, there are three ways the passage can be interpreted. It's either saying Jehovah, the Lord, or Jesus saved a people out of Egypt.

We possess some ancient manuscripts that say the Lord (kyrios) saved them out of Egypt, and we have some ancient manuscripts that say Jesus saved them out of Egypt. I'm assuming you think neither of the surviving manuscript texts are accurate. However, this is not a quotation from the OT, so in the absence of any manuscript evidence, is it ethical to translate this text using the name Jehovah?

If however, the original text used kyrios, the Lord, then it could be argued that it refers to Christ, because verse 4 says that Christ is "our only Master and Lord".

Any thoughts?

No, I don't mind.  It appears to me to be a judgement call.  Recent discoveries show that the divine name was removed from the Greek scriptures after the time of their writing.  That's not theory, but fact.  Without full copies of the oldest texts noone can be certain of everywhere it appeared.  So to me the best way to know is context, the Bible as a whole.

When Moses asked who to tell the Israelites was saving them the answer was Jehovah (Exodus 3:14,15 compare Ex 12:51).

So to me it comes down putting my faith in the Hebrew scriptures or in Bible copiests who for a fact removed the divine name everywhere, or nearly everywhere it appeared.  I choose to place my faith in the former.

As a matter of JW doctrine both are true because Jehovah works through Christ, even before the creation of the world.  Christ said he does not do his will, but his father's.  So to me this a rather moot point because they both are responsible, although it was done by the will of the Father and for the glory of the Father just like everything Christ did.  If we imitate Christ we will do the same. 

I will leave you with a link.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001061205

   
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why does the NWT sometimes translate "kyrios" as "Jehovah"?
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 10:28:27 AM »
I also would like to have your thoughts on a couple things.

Do you think removing the name of Jehovah constitutes changing the Bible?  If it hadn't been removed in the first place this would not be an issue, would it?

I'd also like to call your attention to a scripture.

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand unil I put your enemies under your feet." (Mt 22:44 NIV)

This is a quotation of Psalm 110:1 where the name Jehovah appears instead of the first "Lord".  Some other translations, including the KJV, render Mt 22:44 "The LORD said to my Lord....". The all caps signify the divine name, Jehovah.  In this instance the KJV does the same thing as the NWT, although it still manages to use a substitute.  I don't know if it does this in other places, but this seems a bit inconsistent.  Who made the decision to insert it or not insert it, and on what basis?

What do you think?  Does inserting Jehovah cause an inaccuracy?

And relating to our earlier topic about who is Jehovah, notice here Jehovah refers to the father but not the son. 

But why remove his name in the first place?  Isn't that changing scripture thousands of times over?  Nowhere did God say "my name is the Lord."  That's not even a name.  I invite you to read just the Hebrew scriptures in a translation that retains Jehovah's name.  There are many that retain it in the Hebrew scripures such as the American Standard Version.   I really believe you will find it beneficial and even more awe-inspiring.

"And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah [he that becomes]" (Ez 38:23).  This is the theme of the entire Bible.  All other good things result from that.  Christian salvation is a result of that.  This too is in harmony with the Lord's prayer where we pray for the sanctification of God's name before anything else.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:36:28 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Jehovah is the one marching before you, and he will continue with you. He will neither desert you nor abandon you. Do not be afraid or be terrified.

Deuteronomy 31:8

 

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