Author Topic: Circular Reasoning Redux.  (Read 1059 times)  Share 

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Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2016, 04:24:58 PM »
sometimes i think about relationships between ideas.

if i understand that a boundary exists, and that things exist on one side but not on the other, then i have completed a thought that requires no reference to physical senses.

i don't have to refer to anything physical to observe that some things are and some things are-not.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Goombah

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2016, 08:16:27 PM »
sometimes i think about relationships between ideas.
if i understand that a boundary exists, and that things exist on one side but not on the other, then i have completed a thought that requires no reference to physical senses.
That is something you are able to do then it seems.Personally, I don't believe I'd understand in the abstract
that something has a 'boundary' without mentally drawing from a boundary that I've experienced with my senses.Same thing with things existing on one side or the other.I can't 'see' things on'opposite sides'
without mentally referencing a partition of some sort I had experienced in the physical.
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i don't have to refer to anything physical to observe that some things are and some things are-not.

I guess I haven't gotten to that point yet.Those things, for me anyway,would have to be verified by application in the physical somehow.

Fuggetaboutit.

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2016, 09:39:18 PM »
here's a way to mentally visualize something that has no physical reference in the real world. the shape is irrelevant--it's just a symbol. all that is important is that a separation exists.



inside this circle is the group of things-that-are. outside this circle are all things-that-are-not. they don't have to exist-- the circle merely establishes the limits of things-that-are and says nothing about things-that-are-not except that they aren't inside the circle.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2016, 09:42:04 PM »
things-that-are don't have to exist either, they just have to be inside the circle if they do.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Goombah

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2016, 10:47:08 PM »
here's a way to mentally visualize something that has no physical reference in the real world. the shape is irrelevant--it's just a symbol. all that is important is that a separation exists.




here too, you are asking me to mentally envision that concept but are using a prop that I have to literally see.Every time I envision something within a boundary I would start of by remembering what I had previously seen or experienced with my physical senses.
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inside this circle is the group of things-that-are. outside this circle are all things-that-are-not. they don't have to exist-- the circle merely establishes the limits of things-that-are and says nothing about things-that-are-not except that they aren't inside the circle.
Maybe that is my stumbling block but I can't envision your example of things or concepts separated or contained within a boundary -regardless of their shape- without referencing a shape I'd use from remembering one  experienced through my physical senses.
My thoughts could be real because I've previously experienced reality through my senses.For me I can conceive of boundaries because I have seen them or felt them.
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2016, 11:19:01 PM »
i don't use venn diagrams when i think, goombah. but you said you didn't understand, so i picked one out.

you don't need physical senses to understand that there are differences between classes of things. don't use a shape.

envision the difference between things that you believe and things that you don't believe. there is a separation between them, but there doesn't have to be a physical symbol or a remembered pattern.

all that has to occur is that you don't believe everything you hear.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Mooby the Golden Sock

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2016, 04:12:22 PM »
The first question to ask is if at least one thing exists. Most people take for granted their own consciousness exists in some form (Descartes) or that logical constructs exist such as mathematics (Hume), though a few nuts like me say that even these may be doubted (sort of like a dream with no dreamer.)

The second thing to ask if there is at least one thing that does not exist. Again, most people would say yes, citing logical contradictions and mathematical impossibilities, though some may hold the possibility of them existing in some alternate universe or dimension.

Assuming we can answer "yes" to both those questions, the final question is how we can tell which things exist and which do not. And the big hurdle here is how we determine which category the tools we use are in.

Descartes tried to solve this by using the consciousness he took to exist to derive an ontological proof of God. But those who do not buy that line of reasoning would need to find an alternate one.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.--BÖC

Offline Goombah

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2016, 08:58:34 PM »
i don't use venn diagrams when i think, goombah. but you said you didn't understand, so i picked one out.

you don't need physical senses to understand that there are differences between classes of things. don't use a shape.
i'm not trying to be contradictory or intentionally obtuse Kev but even that sentence makes me think that I learned of the concept of 'difference' through experiences in the physical...I could see for example that all things don't look the same,feel the same ,smell the same ,taste the same or sound the same.For me then that concept of 'difference' can be applied to more abstract concepts.
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envision the difference between things that you believe and things that you don't believe. there is a separation between them, but there doesn't have to be a physical symbol or a remembered pattern.
what understanding could I have of 'separation' if I'd never seen or heard separate things?I can apply 'separate' to thought because I have already learned the concept of separation through my physical senses.
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all that has to occur is that you don't believe everything you hear.
But that too just circles back to applying the physical to information to partition it off,to separate it .If I hear or read something for example.

Fuggetaboutit.

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2016, 10:54:53 PM »
well, goombah, the original idea was case re-stating what he saw as teaspoon's rational for understanding things

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1. The physical senses provide trustworthy information about reality

teaspoon was citing reasons for understanding that reality existed.

my point was that physical senses are not essential for providing trustworthy information about reality. i believe that one can think about ideas without using a physical reference, including physical symbols.

you can't use your senses to demonstrate the difference between "logical" and "illogical," for instance. but i can think through ideas and come to conclusions about reality without leaving the realm of the idea.

here's one

all A is B
all B is C
all A is C

is this argument true or false? you don't have to refer to any physical references to decide. there are two boundaries of separation here, and you can perceive them without your senses. you may want to use a physical example to make it clear to yourself, but the relationships don't require anything to be perceived by your senses.

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what understanding could I have of 'separation' if I'd never seen or heard separate things?I can apply 'separate' to thought because I have already learned the concept of separation through my physical senses.

"separation" is the general condition, and "things determined to be separate through my physical senses" is a special case. you would never have understood how things could be separated by your physical senses if you didn't already have an understanding of what "separate" meant.

we're so used to understanding things in a sensory way that we forget that understanding something is a mental process. we then use the physical references as aids to explain or remember it, but understanding doesn't need the physical.

ever understood something in a dream so clearly that you wopndered how you ever culd have missed it, and then when you wke up after a while you couldn't understand it anymore? your subconscious is processing information at a level so far removed from your daily life that you can't even understand it anymore until you dream again. then it comes right back.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Goombah

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2016, 08:32:02 PM »
well, goombah, the original idea was case re-stating what he saw as teaspoon's rational for understanding things

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1. The physical senses provide trustworthy information about reality

teaspoon was citing reasons for understanding that reality existed.

my point was that physical senses are not essential for providing trustworthy information about reality. i believe that one can think about ideas without using a physical reference, including physical symbols.

you can't use your senses to demonstrate the difference between "logical" and "illogical," for instance. but i can think through ideas and come to conclusions about reality without leaving the realm of the idea.

here's one

all A is B
all B is C
all A is C

is this argument true or false? you don't have to refer to any physical references to decide. there are two boundaries of separation here, and you can perceive them without your senses. you may want to use a physical example to make it clear to yourself, but the relationships don't require anything to be perceived by your senses.

I would have no way to understand "all" without being exposed to the concept in the physical realm.

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what understanding could I have of 'separation' if I'd never seen or heard separate things?I can apply 'separate' to thought because I have already learned the concept of separation through my physical senses.
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"separation" is the general condition, and "things determined to be separate through my physical senses" is a special case. you would never have understood how things could be separated by your physical senses if you didn't already have an understanding of what "separate" meant.

I feel that I learned the concept of "separate" and obviously have no recollection of having that knowledge previously.You may be right and it might have been there but I can't make that claim.
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we're so used to understanding things in a sensory way that we forget that understanding something is a mental process. we then use the physical references as aids to explain or remember it, but understanding doesn't need the physical.
Explanations are the keys to understanding and require the physical somewhere in the process.
For me anyway.
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ever understood something in a dream so clearly that you wopndered how you ever culd have missed it, and then when you wke up after a while you couldn't understand it anymore? your subconscious is processing information at a level so far removed from your daily life that you can't even understand it anymore until you dream again. then it comes right back.
What information would the subconscious be processing? Even in a dream you 'see' what is going on.The other senses come into play in my dreams as well.

Fuggetaboutit.

Offline Rob

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2016, 08:42:49 PM »
kevin your avatar is scary.

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2016, 09:37:17 PM »
it's not mine.

i got it from vynn, who used to be here and has since disappeared.

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2016, 09:41:18 PM »

I would have no way to understand "all" without being exposed to the concept in the physical realm.


I feel that I learned the concept of "separate" and obviously have no recollection of having that knowledge previously.You may be right and it might have been there but I can't make that claim.


Explanations are the keys to understanding and require the physical somewhere in the process.
For me anyway.

well. there you are. i think differently, and don't always relate what i think to physical images or memories.

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What information would the subconscious be processing? Even in a dream you 'see' what is going on.The other senses come into play in my dreams as well.

i don't always use my senses to understand what "separate" means. you do.

we perceive things in different ways. in terms of what we understand, you and i don't live in the same world, goombah.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Goombah

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2016, 11:33:08 PM »

I would have no way to understand "all" without being exposed to the concept in the physical realm.


I feel that I learned the concept of "separate" and obviously have no recollection of having that knowledge previously.You may be right and it might have been there but I can't make that claim.


Explanations are the keys to understanding and require the physical somewhere in the process.
For me anyway.

well. there you are. i think differently, and don't always relate what i think to physical images or memories.

Quote
What information would the subconscious be processing? Even in a dream you 'see' what is going on.The other senses come into play in my dreams as well.

i don't always use my senses to understand what "separate" means. you do.

we perceive things in different ways. in terms of what we understand, you and i don't live in the same world, goombah.

That's true Kev...and I enjoy learning of the different perspectives.
Thank you and Happy New Year!
Fuggetaboutit.

Offline Rob

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2016, 11:35:39 PM »
it's not mine.

i got it from vynn, who used to be here and has since disappeared.

Kevin your avatar is scaring me.

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2016, 11:51:57 PM »
That's true Kev...and I enjoy learning of the different perspectives.
Thank you and Happy New Year!

happy new year to you too

best wishes for a prosperous beginning, middle, and end

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2016, 11:56:25 PM »
Kevin your avatar is scaring me.

could be worse, really



"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline kevin

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2017, 12:02:28 AM »
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW-What a Ride!'" ---yellow dog racing

Offline Rob

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Re: Circular Reasoning Redux.
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2017, 05:45:54 PM »

 

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