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Offline nateswift

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #210 on: January 19, 2012, 03:20:17 PM »
A thought  came up (quelle surprise!) in another thread about how much "social values" are emphasized in a faith tradition, and I wondered what well-known quotes from Qu'ran might be comparable to "True religion is to visit the widows and orphans in their ....." and/or "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy......"
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Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #211 on: January 19, 2012, 04:38:11 PM »
A thought  came up (quelle surprise!) in another thread about how much "social values" are emphasized in a faith tradition, and I wondered what well-known quotes from Qu'ran might be comparable to "True religion is to visit the widows and orphans in their ....." and/or "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy......"

The Qur'an set up a social structure to prevent widows and orphans from being without assistance or alone. the Ummah is an extended family and each person is responsible to assure no one does without. Polygamy in Islam has the purpose of providing for the care of Widows and orphans. Polygamy in Islam was designed with limitations that would provide for the care of widows and orphans.  Add to this the concept of walli's for those unable to care for themselves.

Here are some quotes from the Qur'an and the Ahadith

   "And they feed, for the love of Allah, the poor, the orphan, and the captive..." [Surah al-Insaan, 8] 

"One who cares for widows and the poor is like those who fight in the way of Allah or those who spend their days fasting and their nights praying." [Agreed upon, also in Adab al-Mufrad of Imaam Al-Bukhari in chapter "The Virtue of Those Who Care for Orphans"]

     A man once came to the Messenger of Allah, sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam, and complained that he feels hardness in his heart. The Messenger of Allah said, what translated means, "Would you like that your heart becomes soft and that you acquire what you need? Be merciful with the orphan, pat his head and feed him from what you eat. This will soften your heart, and enable you to get what you need." [At-Tabaraanee & As-Silsilah as-Saheehah]

   "I and the caretaker of the orphan will enter Paradise together like this, raising (by way of illustration) his forefinger and middle finger jointly, leaving no space in between." [Saheeh al-Bukhaari]

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Sponsoring an orphan means taking care of his religious and worldly interests, teaching him and guiding him etc with regard to religious matters, and taking care of his food, drink, shelter and other worldly concerns. [Sharh Riyaadh al-Saaliheen, 5/113]

"You shall hand over to the ORPHANS* their rightful properties. Do not substitute the bad for the good, and do not consume their properties by combining them with yours. This would be a gross injustice. If you fear that you will not be equitable towards the ORPHANS*, then you may marry their mothers. You may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship." (4/2-3)






Offline nateswift

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #212 on: January 19, 2012, 07:16:12 PM »
Yeah, all good to indicate that charity and justice for the unfortunate is a good part of Islam, but the main thing to me in those two bible quotes is the idea that what is important in the faith is the attitude towards others as opposed to the more formal elements of religion, if you see what I mean.
The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do-  Kerouac

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #213 on: January 19, 2012, 08:13:50 PM »
Yeah, all good to indicate that charity and justice for the unfortunate is a good part of Islam, but the main thing to me in those two bible quotes is the idea that what is important in the faith is the attitude towards others as opposed to the more formal elements of religion, if you see what I mean.

Here we have some dissimilarity. Islam is not a religion that is taught in the sense Christianity is taught.  We base what we do on personal responsibility. each person is responsible for his own choices and accepts the results of them. We do have in the Qur'an, Ahadith and Fiqh-ul-sunnah examples of how the early Sahabi applied Islam to their daily lives.

Outside of the proper pronunciation of the Arabic words in the Qur'an there is very little formal teaching. It is a learning experience in which we are to search and ask questions. We usually begin by following our elders, those we believe are more knowledgeable and the Madhab followed by the Imam of the mosque we most often go to.

Much what we learn is from the ahadith, such as how Muhammad(PBUH) told his companions to treat his neighbor woman with kindness, She was not Muslim and often dumped garbage on him when he was in prayer. But, he treated her with kindness and saw that her needs were met.  Reading other Ahadith and the sunnah we see that we are to seek out the needy and try to help them. We learn how we are to give to the needy and not ask what their belief is. we learn that when we give in charity we are not to reveal who we give to or how much. Not even the person we give to should know our identity. If we give in expectation of any return, it is not charity.




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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #214 on: January 20, 2012, 12:22:56 AM »
that Mohammed guy who started Islam was a regular comedian.
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #215 on: January 20, 2012, 01:33:05 AM »
that Mohammed guy who started Islam was a regular comedian.

A +1 for stating your opinion. any input is always a good thing. It is through our differences we can learn from each other



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #216 on: January 20, 2012, 01:34:51 AM »
I don't know much about Muhammad, that is why I asked a few posts ago.
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #217 on: January 20, 2012, 01:47:11 AM »
I don't know much about Muhammad, that is why I asked a few posts ago.

The historical record about him was pretty much destroyed by the crusaders when they destroyed all the Islamic libraries during the crusades. However the Ahadith are eye witness accounts of what he said and did during his last 20 years on earth and that was preserved. Also a handed down oral biography was written by Ibn Ishaq about 200 years after the death of Muhammad(PBUH). However, it does appear Ibn Ishaq used a bit of poetic license and did some embellishing of the facts.  It should be read more as a story about Muhammad(PBUH) based on fact, but may not be fully factual. The Ahadith are the best source along with the Fiqh-ul-Sunnah, but very few non-Arab readers have read them. Most of the best copies are in Arabic.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #218 on: January 20, 2012, 01:54:13 AM »
such a noble culture these people belonged to.
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #219 on: January 20, 2012, 02:14:46 AM »
such a noble culture these people belonged to.


Not quite. Pre-Islamic Arabia was very brutal. It was not until after the last Surat was revealed and all of Arabia accepted Islam that any peace took place. Islam opened the door for the "Golden Age of The Arabs" When rapid advances were made in Mathematics, Astronomy, Medicine, Biology, the ftrst book of evolution through natural selection was written during that era.   Click HERE

Much of this was lost during the crusades.






Offline nateswift

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #220 on: January 20, 2012, 02:17:03 AM »
^ A very advanced culture when Europe was languishing in the Dark Ages.  That their "Dark Ages" came about because of power politics at a later time had nothing to do with the religion.
The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do-  Kerouac

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #221 on: January 20, 2012, 02:25:02 AM »
^ A very advanced culture when Europe was languishing in the Dark Ages.  That their "Dark Ages" came about because of power politics at a later time had nothing to do with the religion.

That is true. Looking at the Arab world today it is hard to believe at one time they were the center of Civilization and Science. Politics rapidly undid what was once a great civilization. +1 for your input (oops got the message I need to wait 2 hours)



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #222 on: January 20, 2012, 06:09:14 AM »
you mean the politics of promoting Islam?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline nateswift

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #223 on: January 20, 2012, 09:02:09 AM »
No, he means the politics of promoting ignorance and divide and conquer that were the hallmarks of the Ottoman Empire that undid a civilization in a few short centuries.
The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do-  Kerouac

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #224 on: January 20, 2012, 02:26:08 PM »
so whats holding them back now?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2012, 02:53:53 PM »
so whats holding them back now?

For that you have to look back over the past 200 years first colonialism by the UK, then oil and the influx of oil companies, the Battlefields for 2 world wars and the replacement of Islamic governments by tyrannical dictatorships greedy for oil wealth. The power of the Tyrants has resulted in some of the highest rates of illiteracy in the world.  The entire Mideast has been war torn for nearly 100 years, with no stable governments except for the dictatorships.

However, in Areas where this has not occurred or where it has been toppled such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Dubai, Qatar, Jordan you will find considerable progress taking place. Also you can look at Singapore which has a  large Muslim population.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2012, 03:02:24 PM »
I have to wear my monocle to agree with you.
basically if it weren't for the creep of islam the world would be worse off?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2012, 03:37:02 PM »
I have to wear my monocle to agree with you.
basically if it weren't for the creep of islam the world would be worse off?

No, nor would it be better off.

As Islam has no central world leadership, the effects of Islam will differ from nation to nation.  Just as it differs from person to person. Islam is all about personal responsibility.  A person or Nation has to learn on their own what Islam is and verify that what they do does not violate it. Most countries that are predominately Muslim will be Sunni and should follow the Guidelines of either Hanafi, Hanbli, Maliki or Shafi'i a few larger countries will have a different madhab for each district or state depending on the choices of the population. the Shia nations will follow the Jafa'ari guidelines. I believe Iran is the only nation doing so today.

The disruption of Islam in the Mideast has harmed  the Islamic nations as they were left without any stable government supported by the people. Resulting in dictatorships calling themselves Islamic.  For those Nations a return to Islam may be a good thing.

Indonesia has benefited from Islam, as with Islam they have achieved national identity and development.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2012, 03:58:07 PM »
Go away None. It is the belief in the bodily ressurection of christ that is the direct source of papal succession. Take this absurdity out of the equation and we have no papal authority, and suddenly bingo, free spiritual expression. No Bishops, Deacons or down trodden.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 11:36:51 PM by Dexter »
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."-the Amendment that ensures nobody is safe..

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2012, 05:51:34 PM »
f**k off None. It is the belief in the bodily ressurection of christ that is f**king us over. Take this absurdity out of the equation and we have no papal authority, and suddenly bingo, free spiritual expression. No Bishops, Deacons or down trodden.
the f**king is off...
um Woodrow LI, so basically you like the idea of theocratic governments?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2012, 08:48:35 PM »
f**k off None. It is the belief in the bodily ressurection of christ that is f**king us over. Take this absurdity out of the equation and we have no papal authority, and suddenly bingo, free spiritual expression. No Bishops, Deacons or down trodden.
the f**king is off...
um Woodrow LI, so basically you like the idea of theocratic governments?

Only if all the people living in the Nation are the same belief. It is chaos if you have more than one religion in the nation. Only 2 nations are Theocracies. Vatican city and Iran. The Vatican could not exist if it was not a theocracy. Iran is misusing it as it has non-Shi'as living there.



Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #231 on: January 23, 2012, 02:01:48 PM »
A question I was asked on another forum.

"If a non-Muslim wanted to read just part of the Qur'an to get a general idea, what chapter or chapters would you recommend?"


In my opinion a person would could get a very good understanding of the Qur'an and Islam by reading Surah 1, 109 and 112.

All very Short yet comprehensive.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #232 on: January 23, 2012, 05:50:35 PM »
f**k off None. It is the belief in the bodily ressurection of christ that is f**king us over. Take this absurdity out of the equation and we have no papal authority, and suddenly bingo, free spiritual expression. No Bishops, Deacons or down trodden.
the f**king is off...
um Woodrow LI, so basically you like the idea of theocratic governments?

Only if all the people living in the Nation are the same belief. It is chaos if you have more than one religion in the nation. Only 2 nations are Theocracies. Vatican city and Iran. The Vatican could not exist if it was not a theocracy. Iran is misusing it as it has non-Shi'as living there.
so the US is chaotic?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #233 on: January 23, 2012, 07:10:17 PM »
f**k off None. It is the belief in the bodily ressurection of christ that is f**king us over. Take this absurdity out of the equation and we have no papal authority, and suddenly bingo, free spiritual expression. No Bishops, Deacons or down trodden.
the f**king is off...
um Woodrow LI, so basically you like the idea of theocratic governments?

Only if all the people living in the Nation are the same belief. It is chaos if you have more than one religion in the nation. Only 2 nations are Theocracies. Vatican city and Iran. The Vatican could not exist if it was not a theocracy. Iran is misusing it as it has non-Shi'as living there.
so the US is chaotic?

The USA is not a theocracy.


I was referring to a theocracy being chaotic if there was more than one religion. Like Iran having both Shii and sunni but being a Shi'a theocracy. the Vatican can function well as a theocracy as the entire population is Roman Catholic. If there were also Protestants living there, it would not work.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #234 on: September 17, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »
i will begin by openly state my ulterior motives for starting this thread. there are many misconceptions about Islam, hopefully some can be clarified here. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Islam, but I do want any disagreements be based upon facts and not upon what people THINK Islam Islam. If you are going to dondemn, condemn me for what I am, not upon what the media says I am.
Muslim, if Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood whatever deity he was thinking of how can that not be attributed to imagination given all events that occur in nature are natural and not supernatural?
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #235 on: September 17, 2012, 08:44:38 PM »
i will begin by openly state my ulterior motives for starting this thread. there are many misconceptions about Islam, hopefully some can be clarified here. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Islam, but I do want any disagreements be based upon facts and not upon what people THINK Islam Islam. If you are going to dondemn, condemn me for what I am, not upon what the media says I am.
Muslim, if Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood whatever deity he was thinking of how can that not be attributed to imagination given all events that occur in nature are natural and not supernatural?

That is true.  If God(swt) did not exist and all is the result of natural events. Religious scriptures of any faith are without meaning if a person does not believe in God(swt). On a physical note all material aspects of life can be explained by natural causes.

I was not taught about Islam by any Muslims. Islam found me. My belief in the Qur'an and Allaah(swt) came from a personal experience that changed my life. At the time I accepted Islam I was an atheist and had been for nearly 20 years having left Christianity. I found the Qur'an to be good Arabic literature reflecting the classical era of Arabic. I also found it to be a good study guide to improve my proficiency in the Arabic language. Although I had learned Arabic about 40 years earlier, however my spoken Arabic was in the Darija dialect and not understood by many people outside of Morocco and Algeria. the Qur'an was a good resource for learning the Arabic of Saudi, Egypt and Yeman.

It was after I found a reason to believe God(swt) existed that I was able to see the Qur'an as a true revelation and Muhammad(PBUH) was a true Prophet. I don't expect any one to believe the same unless they them self have found some reason to.



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #236 on: September 17, 2012, 09:04:07 PM »
i will begin by openly state my ulterior motives for starting this thread. there are many misconceptions about Islam, hopefully some can be clarified here. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Islam, but I do want any disagreements be based upon facts and not upon what people THINK Islam Islam. If you are going to dondemn, condemn me for what I am, not upon what the media says I am.
Muslim, if Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood whatever deity he was thinking of how can that not be attributed to imagination given all events that occur in nature are natural and not supernatural?

That is true.  If God(swt) did not exist and all is the result of natural events....
If Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood God(swt) the reality of God(swt) in reality was not equal to the God(swt) that was fully in Muhammad's(PBUH) imagination and conversely, if Muhammad(PBUH) did not understand God(swt) completely Muhammad(PBUH) was missing information to support the idea of God(swt) and could not use logic, reason, and a rational argument unified to explain God(swt) without using the imagination.
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #237 on: September 17, 2012, 09:50:35 PM »
i will begin by openly state my ulterior motives for starting this thread. there are many misconceptions about Islam, hopefully some can be clarified here. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Islam, but I do want any disagreements be based upon facts and not upon what people THINK Islam Islam. If you are going to dondemn, condemn me for what I am, not upon what the media says I am.
Muslim, if Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood whatever deity he was thinking of how can that not be attributed to imagination given all events that occur in nature are natural and not supernatural?

That is true.  If God(swt) did not exist and all is the result of natural events....
If Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood God(swt) the reality of God(swt) in reality was not equal to the God(swt) that was fully in Muhammad's(PBUH) imagination and conversely, if Muhammad(PBUH) did not understand God(swt) completely Muhammad(PBUH) was missing information to support the idea of God(swt) and could not use logic, reason, and a rational argument unified to explain God(swt) without using the imagination.

Interesting thought.

However, no human can understand God(swt) as he is not with the realm of physical existence. We have nothing to relate to that would be comparable. Most of what we know about his nature was revealed in the earlier scriptures, the Torah, book of Psalms and the Injil of Jesus. I do not recall any Ahadith in which Muhammad(PBUH) attempted to explain God(swt)



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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #238 on: September 17, 2012, 10:07:19 PM »
i will begin by openly state my ulterior motives for starting this thread. there are many misconceptions about Islam, hopefully some can be clarified here. I have no issue with people disagreeing with Islam, but I do want any disagreements be based upon facts and not upon what people THINK Islam Islam. If you are going to dondemn, condemn me for what I am, not upon what the media says I am.
Muslim, if Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood whatever deity he was thinking of how can that not be attributed to imagination given all events that occur in nature are natural and not supernatural?

That is true.  If God(swt) did not exist and all is the result of natural events....
If Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood God(swt) the reality of God(swt) in reality was not equal to the God(swt) that was fully in Muhammad's(PBUH) imagination and conversely, if Muhammad(PBUH) did not understand God(swt) completely Muhammad(PBUH) was missing information to support the idea of God(swt) and could not use logic, reason, and a rational argument unified to explain God(swt) without using the imagination.

Interesting thought.

However, no human can understand God(swt) as he is not with the realm of physical existence. ....
Given what you admit above, Muhammad(PBUH) as a human cannot understand God(swt) as God(swt) is without using the imagination because God(swt) is not reality or a part of reality, but rather part of the imagination.
Consider this again:
If Muhammad(PBUH) fully understood God(swt) the reality of God(swt) in reality was not equal to the God(swt) that was fully in Muhammad's(PBUH) imagination and conversely, if Muhammad(PBUH) did not understand God(swt) completely Muhammad(PBUH) was missing information to support the idea of God(swt) and could not use logic, reason, and a rational argument unified to explain God(swt) without using the imagination.
We have nothing to relate to that would be comparable.
"We" have a tool of reality called imagination.
Most of what we know about his nature was revealed in the earlier scriptures, the Torah, book of Psalms and the Injil of Jesus. I do not recall any Ahadith in which Muhammad(PBUH) attempted to explain God(swt)
No, what "we" know about nature and reality is what is observed not what exists in media and I suggest that you consider this carefully for your own benefit.
you can take the theory out of the pagan, but you can't take the pagan out of the theory.

first I told my imaginary friend about jesus, then I told jesus about my imaginary friend.

Offline Woodrow LI

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Re: "Questions about Islam answered by Muslims"
« Reply #239 on: September 18, 2012, 03:51:37 AM »
No, what "we" know about nature and reality is what is observed not what exists in media and I suggest that you consider this carefully for your own benefit.

Being a Retired Psychologist, with a secondary degree in Biology, I've probably reached my limit as to what I can comprehend of nature and reality and definitely have too few years remaining to attempt leaving the path I began walking 8 years ago. I'm content with were I am and do not anticipate making any major impact on the world. I'm content to be a happy old man, sitting back and relaxing in my final years.



 

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