My story

[Star Stuff]

On one other thread, I have been asked to share my departure from Christianity, so here goes:

I was born into a christian home in 1961.  Of the myriad denominations that my parents could have been apart of, it was no coincidence that it was that of my mother's parents (surprise!) which happened to be Plymouth Brethren.  (This sect had nothing to do with Dodge or Chrysler products, lol).   My parents were both originally from a country in the U.K. and never received a proper education.  They were very simple people, even to this day, but worked hard and provided us four kids with a reasonably good home, although in retrospect, it was impoverished in many ways due to the religious beliefs that we were force-fed.

We went to church religiously.   Going to church seemed paramount to my parents, and still does.  The Brethren church is/was very conservative, and the particular church we attended when I was a child was mostly comprised of old people, and as a result, it was terribly boring for me.  It was so dry and lifeless that my visualized memories of the time in church are in black & white, like an old episode of Leave it to Beaver or Andy Griffith.  I was always very active with an inquiring mind, so I disliked attending for the most part.  We would go for both the "Breaking of Bread" worship service at 9:30 Sunday mornings (which was a safe substitute for sleeping pills), and then stay for the Family service/Sunday School until Noon, and then, because that wasn't enough, would return Sunday evening for the "Gospel Meeting".  Hardly anybody was there for those evening gospel meetings, and the time wasted preaching to the converted was considerable.  I recall when I was about 12 or 14 (?) announcing on the occasional Sunday morning that I didn't want to go to church that day and preferred to stay home.  That was enough to cause my dad to become very angry, and yell & shout about how I was going to go!  Often there was much yelling in the car on the way to church, usually about being late or some trivial thing, and even at a very young age I could see the hypocrisy as they turned on the smiles once they walked into church.

The environment of the church & family was a stunted one.  It was very legalistic, and utilized the time-worn tools of Christianity (fear, guilt & shame) at every opportunity.  It was also very exclusive, with the world divided into the "saved" and the "unsaved".  The "converted" and the "unconverted".  My parents never befriended any of the neighbors, because after all, they were "sinners".  The site of a beer bottle deemed them as "bad people" needing salvation, and their sins washed by the blood of the lamb.  Oy.  To display how legalistic it was, I recall one Sunday when my grandparents came to visit (from about 80 miles away), and as I was a good little kid, I thought that I would go outside after lunch, unannounced, (out of a loving heart) and wash my grandfathers car for him.  Well, half-way through the task, he appeared from the sundeck above and scolded me because this was a Sunday, "the Sabbath" and one shouldn't work on the Lord's day.  At that point I knew that there was something seriously wrong with these people.


As the years ticked by, the tiny white church building we attended became somewhat delapidated, and the small congregation was aging, and the church was not growing in numbers (no surprise, as who would want to be with this dry, pessimistic bunch of hell-fire-believing wet rags).   I was about 16 at the time, and with a driver's licence, began to experience a tiny bit of freedom.  Also at that time, there was a non-denominational (but with serious Brethren roots) church about 15-20 miles away which was really growing in numbers, and so a number of those people who lived out our way, joined forces with those left at our church, and began a new church geographically in between.  This came at a good time for me, as the new church really grew in numbers, and a vibrant youth group evolved.  This was a great social outlet for me over the next few years, and we had a lot of great times.  In retrospect it was all very corny & conservative, but I imagine that if the old church had continued limping along, I would not have lasted in that environment.

The new church also was great (in it's own impoverished way) in that it broke a lot of the old legalistic ways (rules & regulations about trivial things) that existed in the old church, and this occurred mostly though the growing youth group and a few of it's new, untraditional members (new Christians) and the new church building eventually had *gasp* a pool table!  Things like pool tables, cards, a beer, etc, were all tools of the devil in my parents eyes, but I guess they saw the success of the youth group and were probably glad to see us involved in church life.

Throughout my childhood, into my late teens, I would also attend a Brethren-based summer camp for kids, with church 2 or 3 times a day.  This was usually for a week, or a special weekend retreat.   It was fun, but also very legalistic, complete with hell-fire & brimstone sermons by some old man with bits of spit occasionally produced from his mouth as he attempted to whip everyone into a frenzy with his threats of eternal torture (enter: stick) and promises of a solution to avoid said flames (enter: carrot).  The emotional raping would also continue with the usual Christian songs designed to wreak havoc on a young person's mind.  Sometimes lyrics of hellfire and fatherly love all wrapped into one craftily designed emotional rollercoaster for the poor, young impressionable minds.  It's funny how as a child, you look up to these adults, but now I can see them for what they were; unintelligent individuals who held stunted, false beliefs, and who were products of their environment & era; men who were intellectual insects with a stage.  I can now squish them like a bug, but as a child, they seemed like great men.  My parents would also take us on summer holidays to "Christian Conference Centers" for week-long indoctrinations, sunshine, and large dining rooms with round tables where you got to meet other Christians from around the country whilst eating your house-sized cinnamon bun for breakfast. (Can you smell the dining room?)  I soaked it all up like a sponge.  Services twice a day, and new Christian friends, complete with campfire emotion-fests and teary goodbyes at the end of the week. 

Anyhow, back home, as the youth group evolved into a "College & Careers" type thing, the prayer meetings and bible studies continued into my early twenties.  I was as convinced of my beliefs as anyone, but my brain was growing, and that would prove corrosive to those beliefs in time.

I moved out of home relatively late at the age of 23, and I suppose it was approximately then that I started to really think about the beliefs I was raised with.  Beliefs which just didn't seem to map onto reality.  Now, this was 23-25 years ago, so there was no internet as a rich resource for research that we have now.  And I didn't have any atheist mentors, books or anything.  Over time, I simply thought about the supernatural beliefs which I was (as I can now see) indoctrinated with. 

The beliefs could not stand the assault of reason, logic, or critical, rational thinking, and over the course of about a two year period, I slowly ceased attending church.  So unfortunately I cannot offer the believer the morsel of delight which they're usually looking for such as:  "I was sexually abused by the Pastor"  or  "I was really hurt by so & so"  or  "The church let me down"   or a story where I backslide into an immoral lifestyle and rebelled against an (imagined) moral authority.  No, the beliefs themselves just became, over time, untenable, and I simply cared more about what is true over what was familiar or comforting.  My life didn't really change at all except for church attendance and the beliefs I held.  They slowly fell away, and as they did, I finally felt like I was blossoming into a real, thinking person; free from the confines of dogma and false beliefs.  I'm reminded of this:  "If someone were to prove to me, right this minute, that god, in all his luminousness, exists, it wouldn't change a single aspect of my behaviour." (Luis Bunuel)  This wasn't entirely an easy time though, as it's like getting a divorce.  I was changing my map of the world, and given the fear instilled from a lifetime of threats of eternal hell, it was also in some ways an uncomfortable transition.  I listened to my own native intelligence though, and stuck it out.

So in the following 20 years, my mind naturally mulled over the topic of god and the beliefs in which I was steeped.  I found myself thinking about it a lot, and through reading books, (not as many as I would like), watching many science/documentary type shows on TV, and various other intake, I became more & more convinced that I had made the correct choice to jettison those beliefs, as they became more & more ridiculous in appearance; to the point where I saw them as utterly delusional.  As I look back on my thought processes as a Christian, I am frankly embarrassed, and I have difficulty now even relating to that old childlike, infantile way of viewing the big picture.  Religion does indeed seem like a virus of the mind.

But I actually felt somewhat lonesome in my thoughts............and then............it happened!  About 3 or 4 years ago, I saw Richard Dawkins' 2-part series on TV called "The Root of all Evil?"  I just about cried.  He articulated precisely what I had come to sense, think, and feel all by myself.  It was as though he was speaking my mind!  It was enormously affirming.  If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.  I'm sure it can be viewed online.

And so, of course, you know how the internet is........a little searching just leads you to more & more related material.  That film sparked a new chapter of internet exploration and discovery.  I had logged 3000 posts on the first version of the WWGHA forum, and now nearly 4000 posts on the new version, and a few here at IGI (plus various other activity on a few other forums).  I have also devoured numerous books on the subject in the last few years.  So the last 3 - 4 years have been a wonderful discovery of a treasure-trove of material affirming my journey, and that the rejection of the belief-habit that was inculcated to me as a child, was correct, and the best choice that I've ever made.  I am so much happier and sober than when I was under the intoxicating belief which held that I am more than, or apart from the carbon-based tree of life which has evolved on this planet in the last 3.5 billion years, on a 4.5 billion year old planet, in a 14 billion year old universe.  I feel that the naturalistic viewpoint is so much more awe-inspiring and humbling than the cartoon-character-like, egotistical account of Christianity.





Men have had the vanity to pretend that the whole universe was made for them, whilst in reality the whole universe does not suspect their existence. (Camille Flammarion)


We are here because one odd group of fishes had a peculiar fin anatomy that could transform into legs for terrestrial creatures; because the earth never froze entirely during an ice age; because a small and tenuous species, arising in Africa a quarter of a million years ago, has managed, so far, to survive by hook and by crook. We may yearn for a 'higher' answer, but none exists. (Stephen Jay Gould)









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[Shawna]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that, Star Stuff.  You have led an interesting life.

+1 in a couple hours

[sky]

 

[FGOH]

+1

My hubby was brought up within the Plymouth Brethren and tells a similar tale of his early youth.

[unkleE]

Star Stuff,

Thanks for sharing that. Like Shawna, I like to learn about people and the journey they've taken. May I ask a couple of questions (these are not to make a point, just out of interest)?

1. Are your parents still alive? How have they reacted to your choices? Have you grown apart from your family through this? Do you have siblings who have gone the same way, or are they still believers?

2. Probably an impossible question, but how much do you think the "extreme" religious beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren, as opposed to more average christian belief, was a catalyst?

Thanks again. Apart from interest, sharing like this certainly helps understand people better when we discuss.

[Tish]

Thanks for sharing!  +1  It's always sad to lose childhood illusions, I think.  But I completely agree with your summation!   

[David M]

Star Stuff - No doubt a child's understanding of the Gospel is difficult to sustain into adulthood, particularly when the adult examples we have are merely, "intellectual insects with a stage".  It's sad to me that you've had to abandon God and Christ simply because the only intellectual heroes you can find are atheists.

I'm not interested in picking apart your story, as it is your story and therefore true.  I just want you to be aware that there are windows of truth through which you have not yet peered, doors that remain unopened.  It is easy to see how comforting it is to you to have found grown men to encourage your adolescent doubts about the legalistic religion of your childhood. I hope you will someday come to see that they are manipulating you in much the same way as the evangelists did, through an appeal to your mind rather than your emotions.

Have you ever considered the possibility of believing in a God who encourages your honest doubts and wants you to challenge what you are taught?  Hasn't that really been your driving force ever since you broke free from your father's yoke?  Let me assure you, Star Stuff, that a generation or two of atheistic thinkers has not undone all the wisdom that has accumulated over the ages in support of a loving God who is confident enough in his Godness to endure your adolescent rebellion.

[Star Stuff]

1. Are your parents still alive? How have they reacted to your choices? Have you grown apart from your family through this? Do you have siblings who have gone the same way, or are they still believers?

Yes, my parents are about 83 now.  As they obviously know that I don't go to church, I have not told them what I really think.  I do this for a few reasons:

1)  The don't have the intellectual capacity to discuss the topic with critical thinking.  I know in these politically correct times we live in that might sound disrespectful, but it isn't.  It's just the way it is.  Their minds were turned to stone long ago by their parents.  They were raised not to think or question their religious beliefs.  "It's true because it says it's true right inside the book" is their approach.

2)  In the winter of their lives, they are not about to abandon their faith. Like most Christians, they are too heavily invested.

3)  To really "come out" to them would be enormously upsetting for them.  I know that my mum wouldn't sleep at night, because in their minds, I'm on a greased pole to hell.  So it mostly is out of kind consideration for them that I keep it to myself.  Anybody else gets both barrels.

Probably an impossible question, but how much do you think the "extreme" religious beliefs of the Plymouth Brethren, as opposed to more average christian belief, was a catalyst?

As Jazzman has pointed out, there is no such thing as an "average Christian".  But through my life I also was exposed to many other denominations, including Pentecostals, so it wasn't that I wasn't aware of moderates, it's just that the fundamental beliefs are either true, or not true, and now that the lights are on, I can't imagine choosing the "true" option.

Keep in mind too that the god depicted in the bible is not a moderate.  Moderates have become necessary and forced into their corner due to the hammer-blows or secular, rational, scientific modernity.  Christianity continues to be moulded by reason (although not nearly enough).


All religions have this in common, that they are an outrage to common sense, for they are pieced together out of a variety of elements, some of which seem so unworthy, sordid, and at odds with man?s reason that any strong and vigorous intelligence laughs at them.  (Pierre Charron)

[Star Stuff]

David M:  You're not listening.

[Star Stuff]

Oh - unkleE:  I missed a couple of your questions:

Me and my three other siblings were never super-close, and that remains today.  The large age gaps probably explains a lot of that, but we didn't have very good role models for showing love & affection.  My two older siblings are non-thinking drones when it comes to their religious beliefs.  My younger sister has very recently place the beliefs that she too was brainwashed with under scrutiny, and I'm fairly confident that she has also freed herself from the shackles of false beliefs.

I'll let her speak for herself if she wishes to chime in.

[Star Stuff]

Looks like Liz shares my experience:


My religious superstition gave place to rational ideas based on scientific facts, and in proportion as I looked at everything from a new standpoint, I grew more happy day by day.  (Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

Only those who have lived all their lives under the dark clouds of vague, undefined fears can appreciate the joy of a doubting soul suddenly born into the kingdom of reason and free thought.  (Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

I view it as one of the greatest crimes to shadow the minds of the young with these gloomy superstitions, and with fears of the unknown and the unknowable to poison all their joy in life.  (Elizabeth Cady Stanton)

[David M]

David M:  You're not listening.

Oh, yes I am.  With both ears, my mind and my heart.

[Star Stuff]

But a heart pumps blood. Nothing more; nothing less.  And you aren't even using your ears, as this is text on a screen.  You are however using your eyes and mind, but what I'm suggesting is that your earlier post displayed..........well, something like this:

[David M]

But a heart pumps blood. Nothing more; nothing less.  And you aren't even using your ears, as this is text on a screen.  You are however using your eyes and mind, but what I'm suggesting is that your earlier post displayed..........well, something like this:

Well, if you think all my heart does is pump blood, you haven't listened to anything I've ever posted. 

[Star Stuff]

Ok, what more does your heart do?

[Airyaman]

Don't go all scientific on David, you'll just confuse things.

[unkleE]

Yes, my parents are about 83 now.  As they obviously know that I don't go to church, I have not told them what I really think.  I do this for a few reasons:

(snip)

So it mostly is out of kind consideration for them that I keep it to myself.  Anybody else gets both barrels.

I can appreciate that it's a difficult situation for you. I really don't know what I'd do in your situation, but I think you are right, do the kind thing.

Moderates have become necessary and forced into their corner due to the hammer-blows or secular, rational, scientific modernity. Christianity continues to be moulded by reason (although not nearly enough).

I think if you studied christian history you would find this isn't the case - there have been moderates, extremists and weirdos from the beginning! But let's not go there on this thread.

Thank you for going to that trouble to explain where you're at. Best wishes.

[Star Stuff]

Giddy Up

[JustMyron]

I have a question.

It's all well and good to reject religion, and say you're for critical thinking and rationality and such, but critical thinking and rationality can be used to justify a wide variety of life-priorities. I feel like your story as posted here has given me a good idea who you aren't, but without describing who you are. So: Now that you know you're not going to spend your life serving God in the way you might have thought when you were younger, what is it you have chosen to do with your life instead, and why? Where are your priorities, and what do you focus on?

[rickymooston]

Ok, what more does your heart do?

heart is a metaphor for so,ething spiritual

[Star Stuff]

heart is a metaphor for something spiritual

What is "spiritual"?

[Star Stuff]

I have a question.

It's all well and good to reject religion, and say you're for critical thinking and rationality and such, but critical thinking and rationality can be used to justify a wide variety of life-priorities. I feel like your story as posted here has given me a good idea who you aren't, but without describing who you are. So: Now that you know you're not going to spend your life serving God in the way you might have thought when you were younger, what is it you have chosen to do with your life instead, and why? Where are your priorities, and what do you focus on?

I was indeed very aware that the picture I was painting in the O/P was not only a very brief one of my upbringing, but it was completely void of all other aspects of my life, such as hobbies, personality, interests, experiences, places I've been, relationships, work history, fears, injuries, sports, likes/dislikes, highs/lows, loves, heartbreaks, talents, abilities, regrets, pets, hopes, aspirations, car accidents, marriage, music, wine, etc, etc.

I'm actually a little confused by the question, because the short answer is, I plan on living my life probably pretty much the way I would have lived it anyways, just without the religious mumbo jumbo.  Look at all the Christians who do all the same stuff non-Christians do:  Holidays & Travel, nice house, nice car, carreer, good food, good times, and relationships with people.  Drop the supernatural beliefs, and we're pretty much indistinguishable.  I guess I can say that because I don't have my moral compass pointed in an opposing direction than when I was a Christian.

Does that answer your question?

Cheers.   

[David M]

heart is a metaphor for something spiritual

What is "spiritual"?

  Talk about a trainwreck!

[Shawna]

Um, David....  This is Star Stuff's Testimonial thread.  Your conversation in here with him is beginning to feel uncomfortably like a debate to me.  Questions are ok.  But a testimonial thread should be a safe place for a person to talk about their experience/beliefs.  Can we tone it down a little?  Thanks!   

[Former Believer]

Thanks for writing such a wonderful explanation of your journey.

Our paths have much in common.  Like you, I was born in 1961.  And like you, I started to question my faith in my early 20s.  Like you, over about a 20 year period, I slowly drifted away from my beliefs.  And like you, much of the clarity of my thinking has evolved in the past few years--which I attribute to WWGHA, IGI, reading books on atheism, and a local cable tv show hosted by atheists.

Thanks again for sharing such a well-written chronicle of your experience.

[JustMyron]

I'm actually a little confused by the question, because the short answer is, I plan on living my life probably pretty much the way I would have lived it anyways, just without the religious mumbo jumbo.  Look at all the Christians who do all the same stuff non-Christians do:  Holidays & Travel, nice house, nice car, carreer, good food, good times, and relationships with people.

Fair enough. Here's where the question was coming from: Me personally, I don't like the idea of drifting through life, just enjoying the good food and good times. I want to actually do something with my life. Something that sets me apart from the typical person, I suppose. Knowing that there are lots of people who don't have the kind of opportunities I have lends a particular urgency to this. I suppose I think of religious people as those with an easy answer as to what their purpose in life should be, whereas non-religous have to figure out their purpose for themselves - but then, I haven't really ever been very religious, so I don't really know. S'pose religious folks can be just as aimless as the rest of us, and maybe people don't have to figure it out. I found I did, though.

I guess I'm projecting myself onto others in this case. Ever since I was little I asked myself "what's the point of it all? Yeah, having nice friends and nice clothes and so on is fine, but how much does that really matter, and if 'not much', then what does?" Can't really picture being satisfied unless I had an overarching purpose to my life - kind of a vision statement which defines how, if I get the opportunity to look back on my life when I'm old, I will get to the point where I can say "that's a good life - it turned out how I wanted, and I did something that matters during the time I had". Nice house etc. just doesn't quite cut it. And I think to myself, other people must feel the same way. And so I want to know what motivates them, thinking it will be something similar to what motivates me. Despite the fact that plenty of people seem perfectly happy with their houses, and the question apparently strikes you as odd....  

[Star Stuff]

Thanks Myron.  Yes, theist and non theist alike will find that the persuit of happiness through "things" is fleeting.  It turns out that for all humans, what generally brings happiness is good, quality, loving relationships with other people, be it family or not.  I just finished reading "Tuesdays with Morrie" and that spoke to this.

As for me, my plate is full.  I often find that there's not enough hours in the day, as I have numerous hobbies and run my own business.


You might enjoy this book:


http://www.amazon.com/Atheists-Way-Living-Well-Without/dp/1577316428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276877805&sr=1-1

[Star Stuff]

Gah!  I forgot to say:

I heard an elderly woman (I think she was an author) on the radio a while back and she said something that really resonated with me.  She said that to be happy, we need three things:  "Someone to love; something to do; and something to look forward to."

[Grain of Sand]

Hi everyone I am new here to this site. I am Star Stuffs Sister so my Testamonial is basically the same as Star Stuffs. I will say that we as children growing up were never rebellious towards our parents, not like some kids who outright rebelled against their religious parents. Growing up I was always involved in the church, heck I even went to Christian School. Though now as I am older I have been learning alot through reading books, watching videos, and joining a few forums on the net. When you are engulfed your whole life with nothing but "christianity" I felt like a was in a shell, not being taught about Science, discoveries, and the world, etc.
I no longer believe in the "christian god of the bible", but I am not saying that there may not be some higher power or something. I also do not label myself as an atheist. In life my morals have not changed, just my lack of belief in god. 

[FGOH]

Welcome Grain of Sand. +1

My hubby was one of those that rebelled.

The thing hubby found particularly hard as a child was not being able to do what the other children at school were doing. For example they had to stay away from the assembly and any religious studies lessons. No school dinners, of course. Also they were limited in what they were allowed to read and stuff like TV and cinema was totally out of the question. He would sneak to the cinema as a child but one time he left his bike outside and his dad saw it. His dad then went in and hauled him out in front of all his friends.

Tell me; have you come across  instances of mental instability and emotional problems within that community? With the community I know of the level of people with such issues seems higher than in the population at large and I wonder whether the consistent repression has something to do with it.