Why does god exist?

[Rox]

In this thread D M was asking (to basically paraphrase) “what’s the reason for the existence of the universe?”

An excerpt:

but what I am asking is why it is that the universe and reality should exist in the first place.

I answered with this post:

The same criteria in the OP applies to the question of 'why does god exist'?

Assuming that there is a god, what's the "reason" for god's existence?

If you can answer that you should be able to answer the OP question.


Good luck.   

To date, D M has declined to answer my question, so I’d like to re-present it in its own thread and pose the question to the theists on the site and see what their thoughts are.


So, to get to the point;

Why do you believe that god exists; what's the reason for his existence?


Thoughts?


Rox.

[D M]

Hi Rox,

See reply #25 in the other thread.

God Bless,

[Rox]

I stand thoroughly corrected. I completely missed that post from you!

My apologies. I'm just off to read it now.


Thanks, D M.

[D M]

No problem; have a great day.

God Bless,

[Ratman]

DM who is that face on your icon?  Is that you

[Happy Evolute]

It's John Henry Newman, a famous renegade Anglican.

[sky]

Why does God exist?

Because He wants to.

[D M]

DM who is that face on your icon?  Is that you

Hi Ratman,

Yes, HE's correct. It's Cardinal Newman. He was a Church of England clergyman in the 19th century who famously started up a movement to return the CoE back to its traditional roots, but had a scandalous conversion to catholicism in the middle of the century (doing this was scandalous in Victorian Britain... Catholics didn't have equal legal status in the British empire until 1829) and he became an ordained catholic priest, then bishop and was eventually named a Cardinal. There's a cause of canonization for him currently ongoing. He's popular among many anglicans too.

God Bless,

[Ratman]

D M, I notice you used part of the bible to say why God exists but men writing that doesn't make it true for me.  The Alpha and Omega thing sounds so wise and all and it is from a book that is basicly written by men that wanted control and continue the slavery of others.

Is there anything else to back up this that is not from the bible?

To me as far as I can see anyway, I believe that this Universe and all that's in it or around it has been continueing on for trillions of years.

Something was bound to come up like us.  Try to imagine this energy doing things like this over and over for so long that we were bound to happen. 

Would it be too hard D M for you to believe we are here because it was just bound to happen?

I mean think of a trillion years and a bunch of energy bouncing around doing this and that with black holes and super novas going off.

Doesn't need any gods doing anything to me.

[D M]

Hi Ratman,

D M, I notice you used part of the bible to say why God exists but men writing that doesn't make it true for me.  The Alpha and Omega thing sounds so wise and all and it is from a book that is basicly written by men that wanted control and continue the slavery of others.

Is there anything else to back up this that is not from the bible?

To me as far as I can see anyway, I believe that this Universe and all that's in it or around it has been continueing on for trillions of years.

Something was bound to come up like us.  Try to imagine this energy doing things like this over and over for so long that we were bound to happen. 

Would it be too hard D M for you to believe we are here because it was just bound to happen?

I mean think of a trillion years and a bunch of energy bouncing around doing this and that with black holes and super novas going off.

Doesn't need any gods doing anything to me.

I don’t use the bible as a reason to say that God exists. I only believe the bible, because I already knew that God exists and that this is His word.
I’m curious why would you think that the author of revelations or the authors of the books of the bible were trying to control and enslave others? Many of them did not hold positions of power in their own day, and were persecuted for the things that they said. 

2 Corinthians 11:24-27 Five times I have received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. Three times I have been beaten with rods; once I was stoned. Three times I have been shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brethren; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.

Why do you think that the universe has been around for trillions of years? Do you think there is a cause for why matter, energy, space and time exists?
Thank you for your thoughts.
God Bless,

[Waldo]

If I may, DM, I've no doubt the universe has been around for trillions of years.  What is a number in infinity?  If we can even begin to grasp that concept then we shall see how truly insignificant we are in the whole scope of things.  Yet, we are most treasured.  Perhaps we drew the short stick?  Nay, we are the chosen ones.  Sin was bound to happen.

[D M]

Hi Waldo,

If I may, DM, I've no doubt the universe has been around for trillions of years.  What is a number in infinity?  If we can even begin to grasp that concept then we shall see how truly insignificant we are in the whole scope of things.  Yet, we are most treasured.  Perhaps we drew the short stick?  Nay, we are the chosen ones.  Sin was bound to happen.

I believe the earth has been around for 4.6 billion years, and the universe has been around for billions of years preceding this because there is scientific evidence for both (in the latter case, as you may be aware, the Hubble telescope is even able to take pictures of things that occurred billions of years ago). I’m wondering though why someone would believe that the universe has been around for not billions, but trillions of years?
As someone quoted Hawking in the other thread and as St Augustine also once wrote, it isn’t logically possible for there to have been an infinite amount of time before the present because then the present would have never occurred (because an infinite amount of time could never actually elapse). It isn’t possible to count to infinity, because no matter how long you counted, you would never get there. Would you argue, however, that this is mistaken?
Thank you for your wise words about how insignificant we are in comparison to the physical universe and yet how treasured we are at the same time. I think this Psalm is relevant:
Psalm 8:3-8 When I look at thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars which thou hast established; what is man that thou art mindful of him, and the son of man that thou dost care for him? Yet thou hast made him little less than God, and dost crown him with glory and honour. Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet, all sheep and oxen, and also the beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, whatever passes along the paths of the sea.
God Bless,

[Sweetling]

Why does God exist?

Because He wants to.

I'm preemptively sorry, Sky, really I am, but this is the most useless "argument" I have ever seen. Does this answer actually have meaning for you?

[Waldo]

Hi DM.  Perhaps if we look at time as a circle instead of a line?  While it is difficult to put a finger on the "mystery" of God, I should consider this to be a part of it.

[sky]

Why does God exist?

Because He wants to.

I'm preemptively sorry, Sky, really I am, but this is the most useless "argument" I have ever seen. Does this answer actually have meaning for you?

How about this one then...Why does God exist? Because He said so...

[catwixen]

Why does God exist?

Because He wants to.

Because people want Him to.

[sky]

Why does God exist? because He invented it.

[PingTheServer]

Why does God exist?

Because people want Him to.

That is actually pretty accurate IMHO. 

His 'existence' was created to serve a purpose to combat our shortcomings as a technologically and scientifically ignorant world struggling to understand our environment and enforce some sense of common law.  He will probably always serve that purpose to the poor and uneducated, but religion as an invention has outlived its usefulness for everyone else.

[sky]

That is actually pretty accurate IMHO. 

His 'existence' was created to serve a purpose to combat our shortcomings as a technologically and scientifically ignorant world struggling to understand our environment and enforce some sense of common law

Really now? the ancient people of long ago were struggling with science and technology so they invented God to answer their questions? This must have been like only the dumb people the others were over at the camp rubbing stick together and writing down the successes?

[catwixen]

I don't think ancient people were dumb sky, I think they started needing a purpose when their minds could start to reason and think. When they started to contemplate life...I think they decided a God was a good reason. :) Good reason for all the things they could not understand....

[Ratman]

Hi Ratman,
[Doesn't need any gods doing anything to me.

I don’t use the bible as a reason to say that God exists. I only believe the bible, because I already knew that God exists and that this is His word.
I’m curious why would you think that the author of revelations or the authors of the books of the bible were trying to control and enslave others? Many of them did not hold positions of power in their own day, and were persecuted for the things that they said. 

[/quote]

Well DM they seem to have lots of power now and you can't even be sure any of them existed that wrote the bible.  The histrocity of these men is very  weak.

Is it only the bible that says they were badly treated?

Ever notice how other galaxies are always said as light years away? If something is a million light years away, did it come from the big bang?

[D M]

 Hi Waldo,

Hi DM.  Perhaps if we look at time as a circle instead of a line?  While it is difficult to put a finger on the "mystery" of God, I should consider this to be a part of it.

I think a circle going around itself an infinite number of times would still have the same problem as a line that continued infinitely.
I think there could be an infinite amount of time ahead of us, but not before us, because of the logical problem.
I think the smallness of human life in relation to things physically isn’t lost if we do think that the dimensions are finite. If the universe has been around for 12 billion years, the earth for 4.6 billion, complex life for maybe 600 million, and we for perhaps a hundred thousand years, the smallness of our existence in relation to the rest is still there. The earth is a small world in the midst of a massive universe, and the smallness of our existence is still there even if that universe was finite.
Thank you for your wisdom.
Ratman:

Well DM they seem to have lots of power now and you can't even be sure any of them existed that wrote the bible.  The histrocity of these men is very  weak.

Is it only the bible that says they were badly treated?

Ever notice how other galaxies are always said as light years away? If something is a million light years away, did it come from the big bang?

Even scholars who attack the Christian faith and try to prove that the bible is an imperfect text will still think that Paul is the author of that letter. We know that these manuscripts existed long before the church had temporal power, because we have many pieces of them that date back to the early centuries of the church.
There’s also significant non-christian sources that will also describe the persecution Christians underwent in the early church. There are early sources that quote from the gospels and Paul’s letters.
In the old testament there are books that were written by people who were under occupation of foreigners.
The first book of Maccabees describes terrible suffering:
1 Maccabees 1:54-63 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege upon the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surround cities of Judah, and burned incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. The books of the law which they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. Where the book of the covenant was found in the possession of any one, or if any one adhered to the law, the decree of the king condemned him to death. They kept using violence against Israel, against those found month after month in the cities. And on the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar which was upon the altar of burnt offering. According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mother’s necks. But many in Israel stood firm and were resolved in their hearts not to eat unclean food. They chose to die rather than to be defiled by food or to profane the holy covenant; and they did die. And very great wrath came upon Israel.
I do accept the big bang theory.
Thank you for your thoughts.
God Bless,

[Waldo]

Yet everything does seem to be designed as spherical, no?

[jetson]

Yet everything does seem to be designed as spherical, no?

Waldo - we see design because we want to, not because it was designed.  We see a perfect place for humans to live in this vast universe, not because it was designed specifically for us, but because we were able to spring from its nature (through abiogenesis and evolution).  The challenge, I think, is to separate what we wish to be true, from what is observably true.

Certainly I could not claim that this entire universe wasn't a plan, but neither can a believer claim that it was.  What is apparent to me is that humans are the most intelligent life form to spring from the process of evolution, but just because we are able to imagine we are here by intent, from the mind of a designer, does not mean that we are correct in this belief.

If one is willing to dismiss the Greek gods, and every other imaginary god invented by humans, then one MUST admit that it is indeed more likely that all gods are imaginary.  One god being correct and true is unknowable - and any human that claims to know otherwise is obviously lying, or at best cannot separate themselves from a belief system, as opposed to observable reality.

I cannot believe a god is real.  I believe it is physically impossible for my brain to make the leap of faith required to suspend my disbelief in order to entertain the idea of one of the thousands of man-made gods to actually be real.  If God is real, why did He make my brain incapable of pretending to believe?

[PingTheServer]

Really now? the ancient people of long ago were struggling with science and technology so they invented God to answer their questions?

Yes...they did need a societal mechanism to motivate people to behave in a manner that benefits everyone.  IE be productive members of society, dont steal, cheat, kill people needlessly...dont eat pork...it all served a purpose to help people create the social contract at a time when it was difficult to enforce anything. 

I'm also not talking about just the christian god, im talking about the need to explain the unexplainable to begin with.

You are also partially correct, though sarcastic.  You have to remember that the smartest people around, ie that is they could read and write a language, were members of some religious sect.  That didnt change until about 200 years ago...and was another reason science and free thinking was utterly suppressed for so long.

[D M]

Hi Waldo,

Yet everything does seem to be designed as spherical, no?

It hasn’t seemed like that to me. Bodies in space are spherical because of the attraction of gravity that makes masses form that shape, although the solar system is more like a disk rather than a sphere. The same is true of the galaxy. Quite a number of things are round rather than linear, although I’m not convinced that there is a principle that means that all things ought to be this way.
I suppose the bible mentions a beginning of time: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
I wonder if the ‘first day’ is supposed to represent the beginning of time?
Thank you for your thoughts.
God Bless,

[Waldo]

Not as long as I look at time as a circle, DM.  I would have to say the first day only in relation to this galaxy, or more specifically, perhaps, this world within the galaxy.  Before life in earth, time, for us, didn't "matter". 

[dutchy]

Why do you believe that god exists; what's the reason for his existence?

Why don't you  believe that god exists; what's the reason of our existence ?

We are created with a purpose or a beautiful coincidence.
A purpose is still meaningfull over time, a coincidence is only meaningfull till it is overruled by another coincidence that coincidentally takes your place and temporarely purpose in time.

[Happy Evolute]

Why don't you  believe that god exists;

I don't believe that God exists because I do not perceive anything in the real world that corresponds to any description of him that I have ever come across.

On the contrary, I believe that none of those descriptions refer to any real thing because none of those things fulfil any of the normal criteria that existing things fulfil, for example, any discernable effect on anything at all.

what's the reason of our existence ?

Plurium interrogationum.

[dutchy]

Hi HE, I made a long reply, but deleted it, because in general you do make a solid point.
No matter what I try to ask you, I think I can see the answers along the lines of your criteria.

No judgement.