The divinity of Jesus, Waldo vs QuestionMark

[QuestionMark]

You know what you're talking about is why Trinitarians say that the Son proceeds from the Father, rather than was created? Because the Son was participant in the creation of time, so it's nonsensical to say that 'before' time the Son was created.

The Bible says that God is the Creator of everything, and it says that the Word is the creator everything. The synthesis in John 1 is that the Word is God and is with God.

How can you get around this? It's plain.

[Waldo]

No, it does not say "is".  It says "was".  Not once nor at anytime did Christ say "I am God".  He did, at various times, however, make reference to God as His Father.  What God has "plainly" spoken is that He, only, is God, and there are none other beside Him.  Deuteronomy 6:4.  First commandment, Man. 

I love Jesus, QM, and I render all glory and honor to Him.  God has even told us His Son is worthy of my worship.  That is not to be confused with setting Him before the Father as God.  In being mindful of Jesus, we are not to forget God.

Hebrews 1:6

God brought His firstbegotten into the world.  First, He was begotten of God.  Second, He was born of Mary.

[QuestionMark]

You're saying that the Word is no longer God?

[Waldo]

I'm saying God does not change.  He is the same yesterday, today and forever.  I'm saying there was no Son before His Father spoke Him into being.  First there was God and God only.  Then, He spoke.  His first spoken Word was His Son.  That first spoken Word was the Only Offering Good enough for the redemption of a fallen creation.  There was nobody else with whom to speak.  There was nothing else from which to bring anything into being.  There "was" only God.

The Word is, was, always has been and always will be God.  His Son, the man we know as Jesus, is His first spoken Word.  The Word was in His bosom waiting to be spoken.

[QuestionMark]

There's a disconnect somewhere here.

You're admitting that the Word is God, and that Jesus is the Word, but not that Jesus is God.

That doesn't make sense.

[Waldo]

Then you must go back to when before God spoke.  Jesus said;  "I am the Light of the world.  In the beginning God said; "Let there be light".  And there was light.  There was nothing from which to create light outside God, Himself.  God spoke it into existence.

Anything that we can comprehend, God is beyond it.

[QuestionMark]

Let's go through this again.

You say that the Word is God.
You say that Jesus is the Word.

But you don't say that Jesus is God?

[Waldo]

Correct.  Somebody had to speak the Word first.  That somebody was not Jesus for He was the Word that was spoken by God.  Jehovah is not one of the names used in reference to Jesus in Scripture.  Only God.

[QuestionMark]

Waldo, May I present to you something that will solve all of your problems with contradictions in your theology about Jesus...

If the Word is God, and Jesus is the Word, then Jesus is God.

This is only a problem if you think that God cannot be known as two or three persons.

Why do you think that God cannot reveal be known as two or three persons?

How is the Holy Spirit God, for instance, when the Holy Spirit has His own personality?

[Waldo]

Does the Holy Spirit (assuming he is a seperate entity) have power to forgive sin? 

To answer your question, I think not because I understand God to be one person as opposed to two or three.  I understand that if God had wanted us to worship two or three persons, He'd have said so and made that clear in His commandment to His people.

It is not God, who has invented this false doctrine of gods.  It is a distraction from His Word invented by the deceiver of mankind and carried own by all who have been tricked by it through the ages.  It is perhaps the core doctrine of Satan, around which he bases all other of his lies, of which there are a plenty, carried on by the various religions of the world, otherwise known as Babylon.

[QuestionMark]

Does the Holy Spirit (assuming he is a seperate entity) have power to forgive sin? 

I'm not sure. In the sense that the Holy Spirit is God, and God forgives sins, then yes. But I don't know any passages that deal with this. It's a good question. How do you think it is relevant?

I understand that if God had wanted us to worship two or three persons, He'd have said so and made that clear in His commandment to His people.

You have already shown that Jesus received worship, so clearly God wants us to worship more than one person. So, are you a Babylonian Satan worshiper too?

[Waldo]

I'm going to be able to meet you at some point in this discussion at least half way.  Here is what I've been pondering over the last several posts.  I hope you take this more as a study together than a debate.

"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".  Interesting the quote is in the same chapter and verse of both Matthew and Luke.  John 6 is a great read on the bread of heaven as well.  

You may hold to the belief Jesus is God for now but let me share what I'm getting.  Consider this;  Jesus says He is the Bread of Life.  We know Him to be the Word.  At least we agree on that much.  I am getting that He came forth out of the mouth of the Father when God spoke.  He spoke the Word and His Son was the Word.  Being as man lives on every word that comes out of the mouth of God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, that makes Christ the Living Bread which came down from heaven.  He goes on to say, however, that except the Father, Who sent Him, draws us to Him that no man can come to Him.  Here He also makes it clear that no man has seen the Father save He, Which is of God.  

Now, you know that even His own disciples had a difficult time with this saying.  He seems to have been saying that His words are the Spirit and they are life in themselves.  Some of the disciples, aside from the twelve, went so far as to turn away from Him over this saying and walked no more with Him.  Peter then confessed Him as the Christ, the Son of the living God.  Note there, Son of, not the God.  So, we have God first, and then He spoke.  That places Him ahead of His Son for God had to first be before He spoke.  

We must feed on the Word even as the Israelites sustained themselves on bread from heaven in the wilderness.  The Bread of Life, however, is that Word that will sustain us forever.  

Now, I have stated I understand Christ is worthy of our worship, praise and adoration and I stand by this.  It is still my understanding, however, that we are not to place Him before His own Father.  There remains two distinct Beings in my understanding.  Christ is Lord, and yes, He will reign over His redeemed as our King one day.  His regin as I understand it, however, is to come to an end before the earth is re-created after which time God will, once again, be All in all (1 Cor. 15).  Christ came to Earth to glorify His Father, not to replace Him. "Father, glorify now thyself in me".  The Father glorified Himself in His Son.  God did not give His life for my sins.  Jesus did.  He was God's mouth in Earth as is His Spirit today.  There remains Two Divine Beings as opposed to three.  One is God.  The other is our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So yes, I understand better now that our Lord is the spoken Word of our Father.  Still, I know in my heart of hearts Jesus is separate from His Father.  Else, the entire gospel story would be lacking for me as it continues to be for so many former believers here.  Therefore, every word that came forth from the mouth of Jesus, every word His Spirit whispers to me today, is not His but that of God.  When we keep in mind that Jesus is God's Son, it becomes more clear.  My God is real.  Jesus is also real.

You need to be sure the Holy Spirit has the power to forgive sins, for the Spirit is none other than the Spirit of God, Himself, as put forth through His Son, just as it was His Word that came through His Son.  This power has been gifted the Son from the Father.  The Spirit is not another God just as Christ is not.  "Neither do I condemn thee.  Go and sin no more."  "Thy sins be forgiven thee".  Therefore, it is not Christ, Himself, Who forgives sin.  It is the power of the Father working through Him.  Christ was God's mouthpiece in Earth.  He was God manifest in the flesh as is so commonly taught in Christianity today.  He is not to be confused with God for God is One person.  This new version of the Doxology irritates the hell out of me.  Blessed trinity?  Hell no!  It is extremely difficult for the mortal mind to comprehend the relationship of the Father and the Son.  They are two, nonetheless, and ought to be considered as such when we consider "Our Father, Who art in Heaven".  I have no problem with praying in the name of Jesus.  It is God to Whom I address my prayer.  

God is our King.  Christ is our Prince and future King.  Praise Him.  Glory to God in the highest.  Christ expressed such humility that, even knowing the future Kingdom of this world belongs to Him, still gives glory to His Father for rulership over the universe.  

I love you, QM, in spite of yourself.  "Come out of her, my people".

Just to be clear;  I recognize a Godhead, but only one God.  We must come to know there can be only One.

[QuestionMark]

So in other words, you believe that Jesus is God, but is not the Father, and in fact is inferior to the Father in authority? And you believe there is one God.

Ok. So our debate is over and you're a trinitarian?

[Waldo]

An evangelist from my former church has stated; "Christ is not only eternal, but immortal as well.  "Immortal" means He is not subject to death or non-existent.  One of the attributes of God is that there never has been a time when He did not, or will not, exist, past or future."

My problem with this is, did Christ die or not?  Death = mortality.

This preacher went on to say; "Christ has an endless, self-possessed life which cannot end." 

I believe the life of Jesus came to an end, if only for three days.  My understanding of God is that He is not subject to death.

So, whether or not Christ is God, He came here as a man and there was a period of three days and nights that He was dead.  That is, cut off from the Father.  I agree with the part that there never was a time when God did not or will not exist, and Jesus being dead for any amount of time rules out the possibility that He is God.

To my knowledge, the viewpoint of my former church on this lines up pretty much with the rest of Protestant Christianity.

I do not, however, understand the Son to be inferior in authority to His Father as I understand Him to have been gifted of the Father all power in heaven and earth.  Unless one were to consider that it was, indeed, God Who gave this power and authority.  This reveals to me it was God's to give and therefore He had to be first. 

[QuestionMark]

One of us is really confused. You're saying that God cannot die, when what you really mean to be saying is God cannot cease to exist. If God decided to take up a body, and then have it perish, what is to stop Him?

Existence is not the same as biological life, if it were then there is no hope for any human since we all die. If we cease to exist when we die... what's the point of anything? It's just not Biblical.

Next, the Bible doesn't say that Christ is not eternal. In fact, the Son is eternal (Hebrews 13:8).

You say the life of Jesus came to an end for three days, when what you mean is that his biological functions stopped for three days.

And how can you not understand that the Son is positionally inferior to the Father when he proceeded from the Father? If you proceed from someone else, then you are inferior positionally. It would be nonsensical to ask questions like which one is stronger or more intelligent or any of those human attributes, but positionally the Bible is quite clear that Jesus submitted all things to the Father(to do the Father's will was his purpose). If that's not positional subordination then I don't know what is. What is your definition of inferior?

I think you've never given orthodox teaching a fair shake with a Bible nearby and you're just now discovering it actually makes sense.

[Waldo]

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." 

How do you separate dead from ceasing to exist?  If Christ was not fully dead over those three days, and if He went somewhere else, i.e. the depths of hell, then, at least to me, He wasn't dead at all.  God cannot cease to exist nor can He die for one is not different from the other.  Jesus, on the other hand, died.  Therefore, He ceased to exist for 72 hours.  Jesus was as plainly dead as was Lazarus.  Had not his friend, Christ, come along he would've rotted away.  Likewise, had not our God called forth our Lord from the grave, Christ would've rotted away as well. 

[QuestionMark]

So to die is to cease to exist?

Was Jesus lying here:

"Today you will be with me in paradise."

That's a lot of false assurance God has given to all His children about "Though He slay me I will trust Him" and "We are being led like lambs to the slaughter all day long."

My punctuation was partially corrected by Seka :D

[Waldo]

Thank you for bringing that up.  That thief (neither of them actually) died that day.  Because the Passover was drawing nigh the Jews were having a fit over criminals hanging on crosses just outside their gates on the most holy day of the year.  They requested their legs be broken and they be taken away over this high Sabbath.  Amazingly, Jesus was dead already.  The repentant thief did not go to heaven that day nor he did not die that day.  Christ did not go to heaven that day for, when He encountered Mary in the garden after the resurrection, He told her He had not yet ascended to His Father.

What did happen in that moment was the thief became an overcomer.  As an overcomer through repentance, he was granted the promise of eternal life in that moment.  Nobody went anywhere out of this world "that day".  Jesus went to the grave.  The thieves were hauled away only to be pinned up another day until they died, were burried and remain in their graves to this day.  One awaits the first resurrection for sure.  I cannot speculate on the fate of the other.

"Hello" to Seka.

[QuestionMark]

Alright, well I think you made most of that up but we can work with it.

First of all, as a historical note, if you break someone's legs on a cross they die within minutes of suffocation because they can't push themselves up on the nails through their feet to get enough room to breath. Their legs are broken so they can't push up, and subsequently can't breath, and they die. Part of the torture of the cross is that in order to stay alive you have to cause yourself excruciating pain by pulling on your hands (which have nails through them) and pushing on your feet(which have nails through them) while your back which was raked raw by whipping or cat o nine tails is drawn against the wood of the cross. The broken legs were not to bring them down, it was to end it quickly before the sabbath began.

Next, no matter when they died, Jesus was lying if that man ceased to exist. You can't cease to exist and be in paradise. Moreover, if you think that man was carried away half crucified, do you really think that could be considered paradise?

If Jesus went to the grave and came back, how can you say He ceased to exist?

In review, you just said that Jesus lied, and that most of the Scriptures are lies when they promise afterlife. Why are you calling God a liar in order to protect your theology?

[Waldo]

While I am aware of that result (whether or not the thieves were nailed to their crosses) Scripture is silent as to whether or not the two actually died that day.  It does not say they were nailed.  What it does point out is that Pilate was shocked that Jesus was dead already in such a short span of time.  Regardless of the time of their death, they ceased to exist at the moment of it as did Christ.  He was, for those 72 hours, a dead soul.  He did not get to see His Father until three days later and there is no way that other man got there before He did.

The repentant thief was, in his moment of confession, granted access to the tree of life that exists in paradise.  The tree of life is the holy, everlasting law of God that has been kept from man by God from the moment man first tasted of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is disobedience to said law.

Jesus ceased to exist as a man (or anything else) for 72 hours.  I've never stated Jesus, or the Word of His Father, has lied.  There is a commandment, however, that has to do with falsely accusing our neighbor...

[QuestionMark]

No, you have said that they lied, because you are saying that a man, men, and the Son of God ceased to exist. But the Bible says that a man has a soul that returns to God at His death, and to be judged.

So no man has ever ceased to exist, only his body has died.

[Waldo]

At the resurrection I will come forth from the grave (or whatever/wherever) a brand new being.  The memory of this life will be erased and all memory of it forgotten.  System restore.  The woman who was married to seven brothers will not favor any of them over the other, you will not know Seka as your wife, Mary will not know Jesus as her son.  We will all be like angels.  We will be given a new name.  There is nothing of this life I wish to remember.  When I die the old Waldo will cease to exist.  I shall rest in the grave just as did Lazarus until Christ called him forth from it.  There is no consciousness, memory, knowledge or anything else in the grave.  It is a place of rest awaiting the soon coming of our Lord and the resurrection unto eternity.

[QuestionMark]

Waldo, if you knew that I constantly made things up and pretended that the Bible was God's cherished word to me at the same time, how would you approach me?

[Waldo]

The same way I approach you (and all our friends here) today.  I love you, Man.

There is no way  Christ ascended to the Father until after the third day.  This He made clear in His encounter with Mary in the garden at twilight following His resurrection.  He did not go there following that encounter to present His body before the Father.  He went there to present Himself before the Father, a Victor.  Had His Spirit gone anywhere while His body, only, remained in the tomb, what then was the urgencey to make the trip?

At the second coming, the resurrection, I will be given a new body and a new name.  I will be re-created, being brought forth from the grave a new creation in Christ.  Until that day arrives "I" (nor any part of "me") will be going nowhere, nor did Jesus in His death.

[QuestionMark]

So you think Jesus lied?

[Waldo]

"Paradise" exists in the heart of the soul.  It is a perfect enviornment in which God dwells.  We are granted access to it only when we reach perfection.  We are only justified in this life, which leads to sanctification at the moment of death.  Glorification comes when we receive our new body and new name.  Sanctification came that day for Christ and His new friend.  Neither were glorified that day.  Christ was glorified after the third day.  The thief continues to await his moment of glorification along with all the sleeping saints.

We have this picture painted (quite literally) of the first couple being thrown out of a garden.  What we fail to understand is that the whole world was heaven.  Living forever was not as simple as eating a piece of fruit when every tree and herb bearing seed was given them to eat.  Nor was dying associated with eating of a particular tree.  The tree of life was in the heart of man.  It was placed there by the Creator after his creation.  It is His Law.  It is a Law of love.  In a word, it is obedience.  It is an expression of love and respect toward our Father.

The knowledge of good & evil was non-existent until the covenant was broken.

When you have children, QM, nothing will give you greater pleasure than watching them grow into adulthood and feeling the love they give back to you by being obedient to your commands.  You will have these guidelines in place for their protection and in their interest because you want more than anything for them to live a long, happy and healthy life.  You will be responsible for setting them on the right path to achieve said health and happiness.  This will be expressed in your children only in proportion of their surrender to, and trust and faith in you.  They will be an extension of yourself and through them you will derive either great pleasure or great disappointment.  As long as they remain obedient to you, family affairs will run smoothly with one interest and a pleasing atmosphere.

On the other hand, when they do step out of line they, without even having been told, will know they have disobeyed and will run and hide from the consequences of disobedience.  They will also accept your act of discipline was to bring them back into your loving and outstretched arms.

When our first parents disobeyed, they violated their faith and trust in our God, thereby separating themselves from Him.  Our God cannot tolerate the presence of evil and a ransom had to be made in our behalf.  Man could no longer sustain himself on the Word of God only and he began to die.  While we were brought into perfection in the beginning, we, through our own doing, separated ourselves from Paradise. 

Thank God, He had a Son, Who made it possible to get back to eden where we may once again dwell in the presence of a loving Father, Who will never forget or forsake us through the Sacrifice of His Son.  But we still have to suffer death before we are quickened for we are mortal.

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Romans 8:11).

So the promise was given that day by none other than the Savior, Himself, to the repentant one dying next to Him that that day he had returned to Paradise, like the prodigal son, and was given assurance their Father would be there to receive them with open arms.  Even in His hour of death, our Lord was extending the invitation to come home with Him. Just as it was in that day, the invitation shall extend to the hour of our death.

Adam & Eve may have lived out their entire lives without ever again sinning but one thing is certain.  They await the resurrection at the soon coming of our Lord Jesus to once again walk and talk with their Creator.  Their punishment was, for the several hundreds of years they continued to live after the fall, to see what was once heaven deteriorate and die.  Not only did they have to work the soil for their sustenance the remainder of their days, they saw the result of their action in the violent death of a son. That, QM, was not Paradise and no, Christ did not lie.  They retained their soul and took it into the grave with them where they await the same day of glorification as does the thief.  The same day you and I shall await when we die with the blessed hope we will be a part of the first resurrection unto eternal life when we will, once again, "eat" of the tree of life for there there will be no knowledge of good & evil.

[QuestionMark]

So you're saying the thief did die then? He wasn't half crucified and imprisoned?

Otherwise, you're saying that paradise is being half crucified and imprisoned. Seemingly because you know that it will work out in the end?

Is that what you think Jesus meant?

[Waldo]

His sentence was crucifixion unto death.  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by imprisoned.  Unless the thieves died that day (which I doubt), then yes, they would've been imprisoned until after the Passover Sabbath was past and put back on the cross to complete their sentence.  But yes, everybody on the hill that day died.  Invert a couple of words and you have, everybody on the hill died that day. Big difference.  Perhaps you speak of some other kind of imprisonment, spiritual maybe?  In that case we would have one thief spiritually imprisoned and the other, who that day was set free. 

[QuestionMark]

Ok, so in your opinion the thief was half crucified and then imprisoned for at least 24 hours before being recrucified, and Jesus told this man on the day of his first crucifixion "Today, you will be with me in paradise".

So you're saying that a man condemned to die, half crucified, now imprisoned, awaiting round two is in "Paradise".

[Waldo]

That is correct.  I think I am clear on your belief in the immortality of the soul, which is opposed to my belief.  Salvation was granted that moment to the thief.  It really doesn't matter how long he lived after the fact, he was granted the return to paradise, which is in the heart of the man.  Nor does it matter any more to the thief how long he remains dead.  The next thing he will see is his Lord coming in the clouds with all His holy angels with Him to take him to his heavenly home.  There is no knowledge, wisdom or praising the Lord in the grave. He sleeps as did Lazarus until he was called forth from death.  I believe Lazarus, too, was in "paradise" when he died the first time.  It was the state of his soul at his moment of death.  Paradise is a gift.  It is a spiritual place in the soul.  Lazarus had gone nowhere prior to his resurrection.  He was not returned from a physical heaven for it would've been rather cruel to have allowed the man to experience the company of God and angels only to be snatched back to dusty roads to live out the rest of his natural life among sinners.  The return to paradise is the moment of sanctification.  Lazarus had not yet experienced glorification, nor was he glorified when Jesus called him out of the grave.  Had the lot of Lazarus fallen among the wicked, unrepentent the moment of his first death, he would not have qualified for sanctification.  He, like the thief, accepted salvation and was gifted it.  There is no indication eternal life began in that moment of death. 

I understand the doctrine of death of the physical body and the separation of body and soul.  David M is of the same persuasion as he has made clear in another thread.  We could have a totally other debate on this topic alone. 

So, regardless of when the thief died, whether in a prison cell or upon his return to the cross, or suffocation and death before sundown, I do not equate a transfer from earth to heaven of his soul.  I understand him, like David, to remain in his state of death until the return of the Lord.  That is to say I understand paradise to be a return to the company of God and angels upon our glorification.  I was always unclear on the differences between justification, sanctification and glorification until I discovered the relation in Genesis 2, and Revelation 2.  The promise is to be faithful unto death and we will receive a crown of life.  Nor is there any indication of any sort of rapture beforehand.  We're gonna die, QM, and we have no control over how.  The thief and Lazarus were overcomers of sin in this life.  Paradise is a return to perfection of heart, mind and spirit, a place the body can never be.  Nor is it a place we will achieve on our own.  It is a gift.  It is a gift we were born into in the beginning, a gift we will never know unless we experience a rebirth of spirit.  Justification comes at the moment of rebirth.  Even then the soul is not separated from the body.  God keeps track of all the souls but He has no dwelling place for them after death.  That is too much like purgatory for me to grasp.  Christianity places them in heaven, hell or bosom of Abraham.  I have them all dead awaiting one of two resurrections. 

Instead of questioning my faith, feel free to correct me.  I'm willing to adjust my belief when you present me with a study to convince me otherwise.  I understand my reasoning may be as confusing to you as yours is to me.  Nor do I presume to have you figured out.  This has become more of a study for me than a debate.  I'm glad for the opportunity to study this out together with a global audience looking on as we consider these things.  The spiritual things are given from above through Christ, Who strengthens us. 

So no, it was not the God of heaven and earth, Who hung on a Cross next to a common thief.  It was the Son of the God of heaven and earth, Who died there.  It was our Lord, Jesus, Who was called forth from death by His Father, His God, our God, the God of heaven and earth.  Jesus, Who lived out His entire life in that special relationship with His Father in paradise.  He, and He only of all men, lived out His life in earth as Adam & Eve were designed to do.  Had they maintained that closeness, that oneness with God, we too, would be there today, in paradise, in body, soul and Spirit.  It is the same Spirit that dwells in us as we live out our lives in earth.  It is the spirit of Jesus Christ that comes to us through Him from God, just as did every word He spoke and every act He did in His life as a man among us.  Jesus, Who having been a partaker of the tree of life all His life, really did die body, mind and spirit as a man because He bore the sins of a fallen world, sin which separated Him from the Father.  Sin, the wages of which is death. His immortality was restored the moment of His glorification the moment of His resurrrection.  His soul rested in the tomb with Him.  His spirit in the safe keeping of His Father.  That spirit being the very breath of God.  As long as there is life in God, the spirit of the sanctified man is safe.  It lives just as He lives for it was His breath breathed into the clay form of man the day the man became a living soul.  The Spirit, which passes from the Father, the Originator of all life through His Son into mankind.  We call "it" the holy Ghost, or holy Spirit, a breath that comes to us like the wind.  That wind is the very breath of God through our Mediator, Jesus Christ.  Thank God for Jesus.