How does God enable you to do things you couldn't do without him?

[Sweetling]

Why don't you get back to me when you have some clarity of thought about how that happened, OK?

Why don't you do the same?

Hey, I'm not the one denying a creator, you guys are.  Just tell me how you get something out of nothing, and I'll concede the point.

You first. How did "God" come into being?

[David M]

You first. How did "God" come into being?

God is eternal.  Your turn.

[Former Believer]

Well, then that's a different question, isn't it?  What you really want to know here is, how does belief in God enable you to do things you couldn't do without him?  

No, it isn't a different question if you read the OP.  And no, I'm not talking about belief in God enables you to do.  I'm talking about what God enables you to do.  Although I'm not going to list the entirety of your previous post, you have once again failed to answer the question, but have instead used your post to discuss other issues.

[disciple]

Before I came to faith in Christ I was very fearful. Believing in God has helped me overcome my fears. The fear of death which is a real biggie, knowing that i'm never alone. Always having someone to talk to, howbeit even though for most of you He is imaginary. Having faith gives you an outlet,  private place where you can go and vent. It's not been 100% proven but there are theories out there that prayer has a therapeutic element. Is it because there is a God that actually listens to us when we pray, or the thought that God is there and could be listening to us when we pray, I prefer the former to the latter, but in any case even if you are not sure, it sure doesn't hurt to pray just in case!

[Former Believer]

Before I came to faith in Christ I was very fearful. Believing in God has helped me overcome my fears. The fear of death which is a real biggie, knowing that i'm never alone. Always having someone to talk to, howbeit even though for most of you He is imaginary. Having faith gives you an outlet,  private place where you can go and vent. It's not been 100% proven but there are theories out there that prayer has a therapeutic element. Is it because there is a God that actually listens to us when we pray, or the thought that God is there and could be listening to us when we pray, I prefer the former to the latter, but in any case even if you are not sure, it sure doesn't hurt to pray just in case!

I think prayer does work in some of the ways you discussed.  I think it does provide a therapeutic outlet.  A believer can unburden himself in prayer, sharing the most intimate details of his life, things he wouldn't even feel comfortable sharing with a psychologist.  I also think prayer helps Christians have a positive mental attitude about events in their life.  The belief that God will help them can act as a placebo that helps them be proactive and confident in dealing with issues that confront them. 

It worked that way for me for awhile.  But then I started to examine all of the prayers that went unanswered.  Eventually, I couldn't accept that these unanswered prayers resulted from the standard Christian explanations:  not having enough faith, not being Gods will, not being God's time, etc.

You stated that "believing in God" took away your fear of death.  This seems reasonable because if you believe in the Christian God, you get to live forever.  Adherents of other faiths which say you get eternal life by believing in their gods could expect the same results.  I'm not really asking what belief does for you.  I'm asking how God enables you to do things you were incapable of before becoming a devoted Christian.

[David M]

FB, this whole thread is stupid.  You don't even believe in God.  You just want us to tell you what God does for us, so you can belittle us and say, "Oh, yes, I suppose prayer could have a placebo effect."

Placebo my ass, man.  God is real.  Just because you don't know how to pray or what to pray for doesn't mean prayer doesn't work, doesn't mean God doesn't answer prayers.  So you failed at Christianity, and now your excuse is that it isn't real, and you like to pretend that you're more enlightened now that you deny God.  Please.  Grow up.  Just because God isn't your personal Santa Claus is no reason for you to deny his existence and mock the people who know better.

That's all.  I'm done.  Goodnight.

[Sweetling]

You first. How did "God" come into being?

God is eternal.  Your turn.

Cop-out. That is something from nothing.

[Former Believer]

FB, this whole thread is stupid.  You don't even believe in God.  You just want us to tell you what God does for us, so you can belittle us and say, "Oh, yes, I suppose prayer could have a placebo effect."

Placebo my ass, man.  God is real.  Just because you don't know how to pray or what to pray for doesn't mean prayer doesn't work, doesn't mean God doesn't answer prayers.  So you failed at Christianity, and now your excuse is that it isn't real, and you like to pretend that you're more enlightened now that you deny God.  Please.  Grow up.  Just because God isn't your personal Santa Claus is no reason for you to deny his existence and mock the people who know better.

That's all.  I'm done.  Goodnight.

So, instead of answering the question, you engage in insults and assertions. 

[Sweetling]

David's sounding angrier and QM seems to have burst a vessel somewhere in his Limbic system. The End Is Nigh!

[disciple]

To rephrase my post FB, God has enabled me to face my fears and overcome them, something I couldn't do without Him.

[jetson]

FB, this whole thread is stupid.  You don't even believe in God.  You just want us to tell you what God does for us, so you can belittle us and say, "Oh, yes, I suppose prayer could have a placebo effect."

Placebo my ass, man.  God is real.  Just because you don't know how to pray or what to pray for doesn't mean prayer doesn't work, doesn't mean God doesn't answer prayers.  So you failed at Christianity, and now your excuse is that it isn't real, and you like to pretend that you're more enlightened now that you deny God.  Please.  Grow up.  Just because God isn't your personal Santa Claus is no reason for you to deny his existence and mock the people who know better.

That's all.  I'm done.  Goodnight.

If God was real, we wouldn't be atheist, now would we?  The fact is that more people are dropping their beliefs in the U.S.  There are more atheists in your daily life than you probably ever realized.  People are tired of those who make cowardly remarks like yours above.  They amount to childish cries of hurt feelings, and put religion itself under a brighter light of make believe, imaginary friend making by adults who cannot let go of their fantasies.

You will continue to pretend that God is real, and we will continue to shine a bright light on this mess and watch as more and more people scurry back into the darkness and comfort of their personal belief systems, supported by ignorance and delusion, and truly nothing more than that.

If you had a single shred of evidence to support any of your god beliefs, you wouldn't get so frustrated.  And atheists would have a tougher time with the topic.  As it stands, we have evidence, facts, reason, logic, and observable reality squarely on our side, and there is pretty much nothing you can do about it.  With the exception of ignoring it, which most fundamnetal believers do very well.

[Pastafarian]

Awesome post Jetson! +10
so true.
Evolution does not even attempt to address how it all started, but whatever. The simpler questin is indeed where did god come from, Dave. You claim magic god always was, I claim not to know how it all started but I know what happened once it did!

Maybe one day smart people will figure it out, though I personally think that might be asking a bit much, seeing as there may not be any distinguishable evidence of the way it all began for us left over.   

[Former Believer]

To rephrase my post FB, God has enabled me to face my fears and overcome them, something I couldn't do without Him.

In what ways has God enabled you to face your fears?  Why do you think you could not face your fears without God?

[Ratman]

Well, let's see... For starters, he created heaven and earth.  That comes in very handy when I want to do things.  Oh, then there's the superb mind, healthy body and opposable thumbs that he created me with, and why not throw in the imagination that allows me to come up with ideas for things to do in the first place?  Add to that the heart that makes it possible for me to love others, and the spiritual insight that teaches me about the Love that God has for all of us and desires for us to share with one another.

Sometimes God even gives me patience to deal with people who are too ignorant to appreciate everything that God does for us, and courage to challenge people who think they've got things all figured out but won't even admit that they wouldn't even exist if God hadn't created them in the first place.

He gives me fresh air to breathe, and marvelous filters in my body for when the air isn't so fresh, food to eat, and the amazing capacity to translate that air and food into the energy to do things, the antibodies to fight disease, the bones, muscles, tendons and nerves that coordinate my body to move at my slightest whim, and even to perform vital functions with no conscious thought whatsoever.

With all of these tools comes an ability to compare myself to other creatures and other people, to learn from the successes and failures of myself and others, to plot a course for my life that suits my talents and interests, while being flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances and new information.

Sometimes, God even makes it possible for me to genuinely care about the welfare of others beside myself.  Amazing.

David M. Just think of us who don't believe what you believe.  What makes us go when we know in our MINDS that a god just cannot possibly exist in the way you wish it?

I feel a belief in your god takes away from me my abilitys to deal with things because according to the fall of man from the first one, we are worthless sinners that got kicked out of Eden.

I can think of a better way to treat others and it is because they are people just like me. Believing in a god gave me a complex.  It caused me to think that others were better than me.

I would think that since they were smarter, older, richer or they went through more pain, then that caused me to feel that my feelings were not as important as there's.

Maybe that's why I became an atheist so I could have my sanity back and know that everybody struggles and everybody is going through something that causes great pain hence they need to have someone or something to keep them grounded and keep them sane.

I feel your diety just doesn't have any substance to it and it is the people that either fear death or they want to leave it to some being to take care of them and it's just a political sham to keep the sheeple in line.

To break away from that takes guts and strength that your god doesn't want you to have unless you worship him.

I know that my mind is much more free now that I don't have a God complex in my head with everything I do or say or feel.  My self asteem has skyrocketed when I became good without God.

I have so many tools that I control myself now David M. and I am in much better control without a diety looming over me.

Unlearning this takes time and it really opens the doors for me.

[disciple]

Well FB, we will start with the fear of death. Usually our fears are based on the unknown. The reality is we are all gonna die, this is an unavoidable experience.
I have yet to find someone who has addressed the problem of death as well as Jesus has. Over the years I have had the sad experience of having to conduct funerals, and only the words of Jesus address this issue adequately in my opinion. I think fear of death is the big daddy of all other fears, and only faith in the resurrection can help overcome that. The humbling thing is we all have an expiration date and none of us know when that expiration date is. I don't worry about that any more, that day and that hour is in the Lords hands not mine. When I first came to Christ back in England, we used to have a question, "if you were to die tonight would you go to heaven?" It takes faith in the words of Christ to be able to answer that question positively.

[Former Believer]

Well FB, we will start with the fear of death. Usually our fears are based on the unknown. The reality is we are all gonna die, this is an unavoidable experience.
I have yet to find someone who has addressed the problem of death as well as Jesus has. Over the years I have had the sad experience of having to conduct funerals, and only the words of Jesus address this issue adequately in my opinion. I think fear of death is the big daddy of all other fears, and only faith in the resurrection can help overcome that. The humbling thing is we all have an expiration date and none of us know when that expiration date is. I don't worry about that any more, that day and that hour is in the Lords hands not mine. When I first came to Christ back in England, we used to have a question, "if you were to die tonight would you go to heaven?" It takes faith in the words of Christ to be able to answer that question positively.

I bolded a portion of your quote for emphasis.  This is your opinion based on your faith in Christianity.  I believe that adherents of other faiths that offer an afterlife, based on the whatever criteria their particular deities mandate, would also answer that question positively and confidently.  And again, I don't think this is a particularly good example of how God helps you face your fears.  As I noted several posts back, simply believing that you are going to live forever eradicates the fear. 

Would you try to present some other examples and answer the two questions that I previously posed:

In what ways has God enabled you to face your fears?  Why do you think you could not face your fears without God?

[David M]

David M. Just think of us who don't believe what you believe.  What makes us go when we know in our MINDS that a god just cannot possibly exist in the way you wish it?

I feel a belief in your god takes away from me my abilitys to deal with things because according to the fall of man from the first one, we are worthless sinners that got kicked out of Eden.

I can think of a better way to treat others and it is because they are people just like me. Believing in a god gave me a complex.  It caused me to think that others were better than me.

I would think that since they were smarter, older, richer or they went through more pain, then that caused me to feel that my feelings were not as important as there's.

Maybe that's why I became an atheist so I could have my sanity back and know that everybody struggles and everybody is going through something that causes great pain hence they need to have someone or something to keep them grounded and keep them sane.

I feel your diety just doesn't have any substance to it and it is the people that either fear death or they want to leave it to some being to take care of them and it's just a political sham to keep the sheeple in line.

To break away from that takes guts and strength that your god doesn't want you to have unless you worship him.

I know that my mind is much more free now that I don't have a God complex in my head with everything I do or say or feel.  My self asteem has skyrocketed when I became good without God.

I have so many tools that I control myself now David M. and I am in much better control without a diety looming over me.

Unlearning this takes time and it really opens the doors for me.

Ratman, based on what you've written here, you don't know much about 'my' deity at all.  Maybe it's your deity that doesn't have any substance?

First of all, belief in God doesn't take away from my abilities at all.  In Truth, when I realize that I was created in the image and likeness of all mighty God, and have been entrusted by him with the establishment of his Kingdom of Love here on earth, I am empowered by the confidence that God has in me.  I don't know anything about any god that says I am a worthless sinner.

I am taught by my God to see Christ in everyone I meet, regardless of their background, religion, physical or mental abilities, and to recognize and encourage the unique gifts and talents that God blesses each of his children with. None of us is "better" than any other, some are just further along in their spiritual journey, or more handicapped by their enslavement to worldly concerns.  The hope for all lies in the freedom of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who not only demonstrated during his earthly ministry how a righteous life is lived, but who, by the blood of his death and our faith in his resurrection frees us from worldly bondage and gives us the strength to be who we really are meant to be.

I am delighted that you have been liberated from whatever false religion taught you to feel so badly about yourself, that made it so difficult for you to break away.  Let me assure you that if that was what was really going on there, it was a man made religion and not of God.

I hope you will remain open to the possibility that there is a God who loves you and wants to help you achieve everything you hope to achieve in life, and plans to bring you home when that life is over to celebrate your reward with him.  You may need him some day to overcome something that is beyond your ability to control.  Rest assured - when you need him, he'll be there.  No questions asked.

[Ratman]

Ratman, based on what you've written here, you don't know much about 'my' deity at all.  Maybe it's your deity that doesn't have any substance?
.

David M, That's the thing I am saying is no deity exists at all.  I read things from a point of view that is based on logic and from the beginning if you were able to look at it from another point that you might see it differently.

Your point of view is from the blind faith point of view in that even if you did see something that would cause you to question it you wouldn't because you are biased in the idea that God exists.

Why not say: I don't know if he exists therefore I want look at the evidence in another way but you can't do that.  So any dogma that you read from the holy book you will always make it fit somehow.

I don't have to worry about any hypocrosy because I know it is all untrue and political.

[David M]

Ratman, based on what you've written here, you don't know much about 'my' deity at all.  Maybe it's your deity that doesn't have any substance?
.

David M, That's the thing I am saying is no deity exists at all.  I read things from a point of view that is based on logic and from the beginning if you were able to look at it from another point that you might see it differently.

Your point of view is from the blind faith point of view in that even if you did see something that would cause you to question it you wouldn't because you are biased in the idea that God exists.

Why not say: I don't know if he exists therefore I want look at the evidence in another way but you can't do that.  So any dogma that you read from the holy book you will always make it fit somehow.

I don't have to worry about any hypocrosy because I know it is all untrue and political.

Ratman, you keep making assumptions about what I believe and why that just aren't true.  If you really want to understand what I know about God, you should read some of my earliest posts.  I was a skeptic long before you were, perhaps even before you were born.  After Jesus made his shocking appearance into my life, I still doubted the validity of much of scripture, and to this day I'm convinced that most Christians, including most Christian theologians, don't really understand what it's all about.  Some of the most knowledgable and intelligent former believers on this sight (if that's not an oxymoron) even tell my that my understanding of scripture is goofy, probably because it makes too much sense.

I spent too much of my life thinking I was being logical, only to come face to face with the reality that what I considered "logic" was just a polite term for self-worship - The refusal to believe anything that didn't make sense to me.  No thanks.  The Truth is much more amazing than anything my puny brain can comprehend.  Talk about blindness!

Today, everything I see is more evidence that God does exist, is alive, and cares very much about his creation.  Maybe one day you'll have your sight restored as well.  Then, maybe you'll learn to be able to tell the difference between what is spiritual and what is political, what is man-made dogma and what is the Good News of Jesus Christ.   In the meantime, have fun pretending that your mind is the be all and end all, while your almighty creator just smiles and shakes his head at your folly.

[Gilgamesh]

^Hey again David M.

Before I get started please know I’m not singling you out. For some reason your posts just stand out to me (and slap me in the face). *wink*

While it wasn’t directed toward me, I took you up on the idea to read some of your earlier posts here. From reading a decent chunk of your post history I believe I understand the position you currently hold a bit clearer, so I’m glad I did. On the same token though, I don’t actually think you were ever an atheist. Self worship, refusal to take the time to understand science, crying out frustrations to a deity, the idea there is nothing to live for – these ideas you’ve associated with atheism couldn’t be more incorrect. And the very same flawed concepts you came here with raise their heads again in your latest posts. You would think after 1,700+ posts of discussion with non-believers you would understand exactly what an atheist is and why one lacks belief in supernatural deities.

I could be wrong but I feel you make the same generalization often: Atheists are snarky hard-headed mules that refuse to admit they actually believe in God. Come on David, it isn’t as if atheists are mythomaniacs refusing to admit the “Truth” that is buried deep within their hearts. If I thought Christianity was actually true I would still be a Christian.

We aren’t pretending. We simply don’t believe in the supposition of the supernatural. *shrugs*

[David M]

^Hey again David M.

Before I get started please know I’m not singling you out. For some reason your posts just stand out to me (and slap me in the face). *wink*

While it wasn’t directed toward me, I took you up on the idea to read some of your earlier posts here. From reading a decent chunk of your post history I believe I understand the position you currently hold a bit clearer, so I’m glad I did. On the same token though, I don’t actually think you were ever an atheist. Self worship, refusal to take the time to understand science, crying out frustrations to a deity, the idea there is nothing to live for – these ideas you’ve associated with atheism couldn’t be more incorrect. And the very same flawed concepts you came here with raise their heads again in your latest posts. You would think after 1,700+ posts of discussion with non-believers you would understand exactly what an atheist is and why one lacks belief in supernatural deities.

I could be wrong but I feel you make the same generalization often: Atheists are snarky hard-headed mules that refuse to admit they actually believe in God. Come on David, it isn’t as if atheists are mythomaniacs refusing to admit the “Truth” that is buried deep within their hearts. If I thought Christianity was actually true I would still be a Christian.

We aren’t pretending. We simply don’t believe in the supposition of the supernatural. *shrugs*

Gilgamesh (if that is your real name) - You've done your homework well, I'm impressed.  I don't know if I would even bother to read all that stuff over again.  Your effort to understand me better has earned you at least one keen insight - I never really was an atheist!  That old Baptist preacher was right; none of us really are, because we all believe in something.  If you push back what you "know" far enough, there's always something you have to assume, or guess, or just believe to be true.  In my case, it was my own wits until my wits end; that's when God took over, amen.

In your case, perhaps it is science you believe in?  That would be apt, since you claim ignorance (I'm speaking literally here, as in you choose to ignore) of the supernatural, as does science.  That might have been my claim, too, at the time, but I now realize that was brain worship, since I did understand a lot about science, and I assumed, like you apparently do, that anything science couldn't explain was a fabrication or exaggeration of some kind.  It wasn't until I opened my mind to the possibility that there were things that were real that science couldn't explain that I began to understand how the universe actually works.

Meanwhile, just as you have correctly surmized from my writing that I was never really an atheist, I can clearly see that you were never really a Christian, because if you really knew Christ you would never say that he isn't True.  You may have read about him in books, believed mistaken interpretations of his teaching peddled by those who pretend to speak for him, but you never had a real relationship with the Living Christ.  If you had, you would know that he is every bit as real as anything else and more real that most of the perishable nonsense we devote time and energy to.

So, after 1700+ posts of trying to enlighten stubborn God deniers like yourself it is more clear to me than ever that only God can open the unrepentent heart and then only when the heart becomes willing to receive him.  All I can do is continue to tell you the Truth, knowing that as long as you are listening I am planting seeds that may sprout in due time, just as that Baptist preacher planted the Truth in me - "If you didn't believe in God, you'd be dead."

[David M]

PS - Thanks for the term "mythomaniac".  I never heard that one before, and I plan on using it, a lot!   

[jill]

just as that Baptist preacher planted the Truth in me - "If you didn't believe in God, you'd be dead."

You always speak of this Baptist preacher as if the accepted notion is "well if the Baptist preacher said it....it must be true".

Well guess what?  The Baptist preacher was wrong.

He made a formidable impact in your life - when you looked BACK - and that makes him important.  I get that.

But it doesn't make what he said "The Truth".

I don't believe in God, and I am very much alive.   

[Pastafarian]

That old Baptist preacher was right; none of us really are, because we all believe in something

in a few months my baby will have to go through what's called seperation anxiety. She will not be able to understand that when her parents are not with her they do still in fact exist. To her, when we go away, we cease to be, because she will be a true solipsist. She'll learn better but only by us teaching her, by repeatedly finding out that we do return.

If she does not encounter any religion whatsoever she will never even conceive that there is "something" to beleive in, except what she observes and learns along the way.

Everyone is born an unbeleiver in god seeing as they have no inkling that such a thing exists.

[David M]

That old Baptist preacher was right; none of us really are, because we all believe in something

in a few months my baby will have to go through what's called seperation anxiety. She will not be able to understand that when her parents are not with her they do still in fact exist. To her, when we go away, we cease to be, because she will be a true solipsist. She'll learn better but only by us teaching her, by repeatedly finding out that we do return.

If she does not encounter any religion whatsoever she will never even conceive that there is "something" to beleive in, except what she observes and learns along the way.

Everyone is born an unbeleiver in god seeing as they have no inkling that such a thing exists.

I see.  Tell me, do you know this from memory, or from interviewing newborn babies?

[Waldo]

You may have something there, Pasta.  Perhaps that is why we must be "born again"?..

[jill]

You may have something there, Pasta.  Perhaps that is why we must be "born again"?..

I'm sure that's correct.

People aren't born with a belief in something they've no concept whether it be Jesus, Santa, Zeus...........

Although - your post does make me think of a bumper sticker I saw once.

"Born okay the first time"

 

[Pastafarian]

Dave, Sarcasm is fun, really, I enjoy it tremendously. But remember, you deflected this particular good argument instead of being brave enough to do a little research or thinking. Whatever 

Waldo, sure, I guess you could say that after hearing and understanding the gospel, if you beleive it, you must start a whole new paradigm to live by. Because so much of it is counterintuitive and so at odds with the world we actually experience: that was the source of my own self image issues: I grew up being told over and over again that I should be so special because I have Jesus and the holy spirit that people will see it, you know what I'm talking about, right? Of course I was only human...

[nateswift]

Dave, Sarcasm is fun, really, I enjoy it tremendously. But remember, you deflected this particular good argument instead of being brave enough to do a little research or thinking. Whatever 

Waldo, sure, I guess you could say that after hearing and understanding the gospel, if you beleive it, you must start a whole new paradigm to live by. Because so much of it is counterintuitive and so at odds with the world we actually experience: that was the source of my own self image issues: I grew up being told over and over again that I should be so special because I have Jesus and the holy spirit that people will see it, you know what I'm talking about, right? Of course I was only human...

Ya, seems lately that David is like a kid in a mud puddle.  Not hard to understand, enthusiasm garners attention and the rest of the kindergarten stomps around in the same mud puddle.  Bystanders get splashed too.

Good point about the "new paradigm."  We seem to absorb societies concerns by osmosis.  As Wordswords put it, "The world is too much with us, late and soon.  Getting and spending we lay waste our powers..." and he lived in a comparitively simple time.  I have to wonder thought, whether that "new paradigm" is not in discarding much of what has accreted to us growing up in a consumer society and getting back to more basic concerns.

[QuestionMark]

Several recent threads regarding the need for God to overcome addictions has led me to ask the following question:  How does God enable you to do things that you couldn't do without him?  I'm not looking for vague answers like "I'm a new creature in Christ" or "He gives me the strength".  I'm looking for the specifics of how you believe God enables you to accomplish things that an atheist or a Christian, without the help of Christ, could not.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. Corinthians

The way the Bible describes it, and the way I have experience it, is that in general your thinking changes and the change in thinking allows you to change your behavior. So it is a transformation that starts with the renewing of your mind.

When I know that truth is always worth it, and that a lie is always destructive if only to my own soul, then it is easier for me to stop lying. The same idea can be applied to every sin. I have been convinced that sin is destructive and disgusting, and this conviction allows me to treat it as a hostile invader in my life rather than just a quirk or personal characteristic.

When I find something wrong with my way of looking at interactions with Seka or others, I know that I can't just wave the white flag and consider my failure and flaw permanent and hopeless. There is no such thing as futility in my life any more, because I know that there are things which are wrong and I know that they can be overcome by a change of heart and a change of mind. God has permanently changed my heart in Christ, identifying Him as my God and my goal. As Paul says we are't being transformed to no end, but to the end of the likeness of Christ.

There was a report on science daily recently about how it's been shown that thinking about people with a certain attribute makes it more likely that you will manifest that attribute, one of their primary studies was in self discipline. It applies in the Christian life for me, as I read Christian biographies or consider these men in these book as living and authoritative examples for me to follow. I talk about the Apostles as if they are still living, because they are still living to me.

There is also a powerful aspect of being sensitive to the Holy Spirit, but you seem uninterested in that.