Do heroes exist? Are they unique individuals? Or is it a matter of timing?

[rickymooston]

What is a hero?

A woman is irriated at some obvious injustices in an election. She quietly goes to rally of protests, wanting to see what's going on and wishing for the results of said election to be honest. Apparently she has no preferences for the results of the election. She is not particularly "reform minded per se" we are told. A guard targets her. Pulls the triggers, She slowly dies. As her country people hear her story, they are angry. Why?  Her killer was caught by the protesters, his identity card taken but allowed to walk away alive. She is dead. Hero? Or ...?

A man survives the halocaust. He was a doctor, because of this, he had some value to his captures. This helped him live longer. Or perhaps that person was healthier? Or perhaps he hid out in the woods, perhaps resisting and perhaps not. He may have done things to survive that he'd not ordinarily have done and some of those things may have allowed survival? Hero? Or not hero?

A man is killed in the halocaust. Perhaps weak, perhaps that person didn't look out for himself enough, perhaps, it was luck of the draw? Hero? Or not hero?

A warrior risks himself, perhaps he survives, perhaps he is killed, but manages to kill more enemy soldiers or to save his unit in some way at risk to himself.

A fire occurs ...

Too many stories.

Martyrs, heroes or just people that happened to be at the wrong place at the right time?

What is a hero to you? What makes a martyr? Is this a good thing.

[Persian]

In my opinion, it's all a matter of luck. It could happen to anyone.

[Kerlyssa]

Heroes exist. It could happen to anyone, but not eveyone would do it.

[leese]

I think some of the events, like people jumping in to save other people, are instinct. Also, people vary in their fearlessness. I would venture that a high number of people that work as police, firefighters and other 'hero' jobs, have a higher degree of fearlessness.

People that make a conscious thoughtful decision to do what they believe to be right, knowing the possible profound consequences to themselves, truly impress and move me. The label 'hero' doesn't seem adequate or accurate to describe these people. These people are, IMO, the next step up from instinct, the better part of us.

[Kerlyssa]

it's not instince. insitnct is a very small repertorie of behaviors. it is the result of eyars of practice. someone saves their fellow soldiers froma  grenade because they hav ecome to kow them and want to save them and they do this in the small amoutn of timne they have to make a decision. it is not the same as carefully planed heroism, but it is still heroism.

[jill]

I think the word "hero" is used to loosely.

Yes there are heroes.  A man who runs in to a burning building to save a neighbor is a hero.  But the fireman who stops the house from burning down is not - because that's his job.

Not everyone dies is a hero.  Why were the people who died in 9/11 heroes? (I've heard them referred to as such).  They were victims.  They people on the plane that came down in PA?  Yes they were attempting heroic acts.   But otherwise a victim is a victim.  No matter how much emotion we put to the loss - it still doesn't make someone a hero.

Like the first scenario in the OP.  She was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Nothing "good" came out of her death.  She was not a hero or a martyre (she sure didn't chose to die).  Just a victim.

[Kerlyssa]

so now someone who plans ahead to be ahero is the fake hero. whcih is it? spontanaity means it's instinct, or planning makes it not count?

[leese]

Maybe they are just sandwiches.

[Kerlyssa]

 

[Mooby the Golden Sock]

A hero is someone who has the opportunity to do something extraordinary, and takes it.

[rickymooston]

Yes there are heroes.  A man who runs in to a burning building to save a neighbor is a hero.  But the fireman who stops the house from burning down is not - because that's his job.

Interesting distinction. It makes sense to me. I would suppose that the fireman would have to somehow go beyong his duty; e.g., rescue somebody when it looked like it was too late to do so. Like the solider in Kerlyssa's example, his training would be kicking in and yet he made a concious decision to risk his life to throw himself on a grenade or whatever ... 

Like the first scenario in the OP.  She was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Nothing "good" came out of her death.  She was not a hero or a martyre (she sure didn't chose to die).  Just a victim.

The odd part is that other people make her death into something. She may well be as described, mildly irritated, slightly curious to see what is going on and her death was because somebody made her a victim. And yet somehow, in some people in Iran, apparently, she is becoming a symbol of the injusticeness of it all. But her not being particularly active, not particularly supporting either party and yet expecting honestly, in the minds of others her death becomes a symbol, for better or for worse.  In terms of martyrs, I don't believe most of them chose to die.  In her case, there was apparently some feeling that the protests involved were "just" and that her government needed to be accountable in some way.

For the 911 victims, clearly policiticans have made them into martyrs but most of them, simply went to work. Obviously, in the context of the disaster, many of them must have done brave things? The people who caused one of the planes to crash early must have been heroes in a sense, although I guess they knew they were going to die anyway. (Perhaps they were hoping to survive.)

Vynn was saying something previously about a martyr being in the eyes of others. In context, I think he had a very valid point perhaps.

[Former Believer]

I don't believe that circumstances define a "hero".  I think what a person does with his circumstances, whatever they may be, enables him or her to be come a "hero".

Some people are placed in dramatic situations or choose to place themselves in dramatic situations that call attention to their noble acts.  These people are acknowledged by society as "heroes".  But, imo, a hero can be a single mother who works two jobs and still takes time to be close to her children.  A hero can be a manic depressive, who chooses to get medication and treatment, and courageously chooses to fight the hand that genetics dealt him.  Etc.

[PingTheServer]

I think heroism is defined by a courageous act.

Given a situation, and the person in position is experiencing fear of his/her own wellbeing, and chooses to set aside fear and take that risk anyway - that to me is a hero.

I agree, hero is used much too commonly.  People try to stamp the word hero on every cop, fireman, and soldier - without knowing anything about them.  It aggravates me.  Sure there are more heroes in those groups than others, but it shouldnt be blanketed.  They sacrifice.  Their job is hazardous.  That alone doesnt make them heroes tho.

[Fit2BThaied]

My heroes have always been unarmed pacifists.

[PingTheServer]

I found a new definition that might fit here not necessarily a hero, but bravery - a subset of a hero.

“The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.” -- Thucydides

[rickymooston]

I found a new definition that might fit here not necessarily a hero, but bravery - a subset of a hero.
“The bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.” -- Thucydides

I like this. Sometimes those greeks were smart.

[Shawna]

Heroes put other people's welfare over their own. 

On 9/11, the people running into the towers to try to save others were heroes.  The folks who carried their wheelchair-bound co-worker down many flights of stairs as they evacuated, were heroes.

During WW2, Catholic Priest Maximilian Kolbe volunteered to take the place of a man who had been chosen by the Germans to be starved to death in one of the concentration camps.

And then there was Aristides Sousa Mendes, the Portuguese consul in Bordeaux in 1940.  In 72 hours, determined to obey a "divine power,"  he issued 30,000 visas, after his government had declared it illegal to issue a visa to anyone of "impure race" or who was against the Nazis.  Five hundred of those visas were handed out of the window of the train as the Secret Police took him away.  Asked "Are you insane?", he replied "Must one be insane to know what is right?"

Aristides Sousa Mendes, a hero:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_de_Sousa_Mendes

[Kerlyssa]

I didn't know about him. Thank you, Shawna.

[Shawna]

You're Welcome.   

Once you learn about him, you never forget him.

[Fit2BThaied]

We had a modern Mennonite hero who managed to bring an entire boatload of refugees out of Europe in those days. Peter...I forget his name.

[rickymooston]

We had a modern Mennonite hero who managed to bring an entire boatload of refugees out of Europe in those days. Peter...I forget his name.

Yeah, these halocaust heroes certainly inspired.

However, so long has passed we should look for more recent ones.

[Shawna]

John Rucyahana, Anglican bishop, Tutsi, Rwandan.

In April 1994 when slaughter broke out in Rwanda, Rucyahana had been living in Uganda for 38 years.   In July, Rucyahana rented a minibus and went into Rwanda for the first time since fleeing as a teenager.  He talked, he listened, he discovered horror after horror.  And he began to run seminars about reconciliation and healing, in an attempt to help Rwanda recover. 

In 1996, he moved back permanently, and built a boarding school for orphans (Sonrise).  He runs a prison ministry, and has built reconciliation villages to bring victims and perpetrators together, for the purpose of healing and recovery.

[Shawna]

"Paul Rusesabagina (born June 15, 1954) is a Rwandan who has been internationally honoured for saving 1,268 civilians during the Rwandan Genocide. He was the assistant manager of the Sabena Hôtel des Mille Collines before he became the manager of the Hôtel des Diplomates, both in Kigali, Rwanda. During the 1994 Rwandan genocide, Rusesabagina used his influence and connections as temporary manager of the 'Mille Collines' to shelter 1,268 Tutsis and moderate Hutus from being slaughtered by the Interahamwe militia."  - Wiki

The movie, Hotel Rwanda, is based on his story.

[rickymooston]

John Rucyahana, Anglican bishop, Tutsi, Rwandan.

In April 1994 when slaughter broke out in Rwanda, Rucyahana had been living in Uganda for 38 years.   In July, Rucyahana rented a minibus and went into Rwanda for the first time since fleeing as a teenager.  He talked, he listened, he discovered horror after horror.  And he began to run seminars about reconciliation and healing, in an attempt to help Rwanda recover. 

In 1996, he moved back permanently, and built a boarding school for orphans (Sonrise).  He runs a prison ministry, and has built reconciliation villages to bring victims and perpetrators together, for the purpose of healing and recovery.

interesting.

I saw a special with some white rock star talking about something similar. I had a hard time understanding. I suppose, if this means the killers won't kill more people it might be worth it.

Any way, this guy sounds indeed like a hero.

(Unlike the 7th aventist huthu who received a letter from 6 fellow tutsi asking for mercy because these 6 guys heard that might be killed. apparently he sent a cold reply he couldn't do anything and in fact his son killed two people.) I get the two groups mixed up. I think ther victims were Tutsi

[rickymooston]

"Paul Rusesabagina (born June 15, 1954) is a Rwandan who has been internationally honoured for saving 1,268 civilians during the Rwandan Genocide. He was the assistant manager of the Sabena Hôtel des Mille Collines before he became the manager of the Hôtel des Diplomates, both in Kigali, Rwanda. During the 1994 Rwandan genocide, Rusesabagina used his influence and connections as temporary manager of the 'Mille Collines' to shelter 1,268 Tutsis and moderate Hutus from being slaughtered by the Interahamwe militia."  - Wiki

The movie, Hotel Rwanda, is based on his story.

[leese]

We need some Atheist examples. We have an image to improve.

Witold Pilecki



http://www.executedtoday.com/category/where/poland/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki


"A former cavalry officer turned Home Army figure,* Pilecki authored one of the Great War’s most daring (and oddly obscure) covert escapades. In 1940, he volunteered to infiltrate Auschwitz — whose operations were then largely opaque to the Polish resistance — and allowed himself to be rounded up by the Gestapo.

Pilecki spent 31 months in the notorious concentration camp, organizing an inmate resistance network and shipping intelligence about the camp’s operations to the Polish resistance and (through them) the western Allies.

Though his pleas for a raid to liberate Auschwitz were in vain, Pilecki’s report catalogued the today-familiar horrors of the camp.


Pilecki escaped Auschwitz in 1943, rejoined the Home Army, and had the good fortune to wind up in Italy at war’s end.

Instead of retiring to write his memoirs, he slipped back into Poland to spy on the postwar Communist government … but the man who had lived through Nazi internment couldn’t pull the same trick on the reds, who were in the process of rooting out anti-Communist resistance elements.

Polish Prime Minister (and fellow Auschwitz survivor) Jozef Cyrankiewicz provided testimony against Pilecki in his show trial (Polish link) on espionage and arms charges.

Pilecki was executed May 25, 1948, at Warsaw’s Mokotow Prison just as he had seen so many killed at the Black Wall — with a single shot to the back of the head."

[Shawna]

We need some Atheist examples. We have an image to improve.

Witold Pilecki

 

+1 to Witold.  Since he's not a member of the forum, I guess you'll just have to accept it on his behalf, leese.












[/quote]

[Shawna]

Bayard Rustin

"In April 1947, eight white and eight black travelers took a two-week bus and train trip from Washington, D.C. to Louisville, Kentucky.  Sponsored by the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the Congress of Racial Equality, the ride's co-leaders were Bayard Rustin, a gay black man, and George Houser, a white Methodist minister.

With a strategy of whites sitting in the back seats, blacks in front and both side-by-side, they aimed to force the Southern states to implement an earlier Supreme Court decision barring segregation on interstate public transportation.  Along the way the group spoke at NAACP gatherings and churches, and endured numerous arrests for violating local segregation laws.  In Chapel Hill, North Carolina, they were attacked by an angry mob of white cab drivers, and the white minister who took them in was forced by threats to evacuate his family.  Four of the riders were arrested, convicted, and served thirty days on a chain gang, one of whom was Rustin (his journalistic account of conditions in the jail led to the termination of chain gangs).  The journey was a direct inspiration for the later Civil Rights Freedom Rides of the 1960s."

--Ambassadors of Reconciliation (Vol. 1):  New Testament Reflections on Restorative Justice and Peacemaking, by Ched Myers and Elaine Enns, 2009


What Myers and Enns don't mention is that Rustin taught Martin Luther King about non-violent direct action. ...  He served time in prison during WWII as a pacifist for violating the Selective Service Act, and organized protests against segregated dining facilities while he was there. ... He was an openly gay man 60 years ago, who refused to accept second-class status, either for his skin color or his sexual orientation.  He spent his life working for dignity and justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin

Oh, yeah.  I just found out... he was a Quaker.  He's a hard act to follow.

[rickymooston]

Bayard Rustin

"In April 1947, eight white and eight black travelers took a two-week bus and train trip from Washington, D.C. to Louisville, Kentucky.  Sponsored by the Fellowship of Reconciliation and the Congress of Racial Equality, the ride's co-leaders were Bayard Rustin, a gay black man, and George Houser, a white Methodist minister.

With a strategy of whites sitting in the back seats, blacks in front and both side-by-side, they aimed to force the Southern states to implement an earlier Supreme Court decision barring segregation on interstate public transportation.  Along the way the group spoke at NAACP gatherings and churches, and endured numerous arrests for violating local segregation laws.  In Chapel Hill, North Carolina, they were attacked by an angry mob of white cab drivers, and the white minister who took them in was forced by threats to evacuate his family.  Four of the riders were arrested, convicted, and served thirty days on a chain gang, one of whom was Rustin (his journalistic account of conditions in the jail led to the termination of chain gangs).  The journey was a direct inspiration for the later Civil Rights Freedom Rides of the 1960s."

--Ambassadors of Reconciliation (Vol. 1):  New Testament Reflections on Restorative Justice and Peacemaking, by Ched Myers and Elaine Enns, 2009


What Myers and Enns don't mention is that Rustin taught Martin Luther King about non-violent direct action. ...  He served time in prison during WWII as a pacifist for violating the Selective Service Act, and organized protests against segregated dining facilities while he was there. ... He was an openly gay man 60 years ago, who refused to accept second-class status, either for his skin color or his sexual orientation.  He spent his life working for dignity and justice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin

Oh, yeah.  I just found out... he was a Quaker.  He's a hard act to follow.

nice and i didnt know black quakers exist

[Shawna]

nice and i didnt know black quakers exist

They are not particularly common, to our great shame.  Quakers were willing to work to free black slaves, but they weren't as willing to accept them into membership as Friends.  If they had been willing to accept black people as members immediately following the Civil War, Quakerism might be a predominantly black denomination now.