Holy or Bigoted?

[Son of Man]

People who love God are offended when God is insulted too Fit.

I read something interesting in QM's Corner thread and wondered how prevalent among believers his sentiment was.  QM is offended when people insult his god and uses these verses to rationalize his feelings. 

PS 139:21 Do I not hate those who hate You, O LORD? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?

Obviously, whoever wrote that quoted bit of Psalms hated those who didn't care for his god.  But does God say that this man's feelings were justified?  When I read that verse, I get the impression that it was written by someone from a brutal culture and that if the man were alive today, people would refer to him as a bigot. 

QM could have also quoted the next verse. 

PS 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

I can understand where the author of Psalms was coming from.  He lived before genocide was such an ugly word, and this was before Jesus commanded His followers to love their enemies.   I'm not an expert in the Bible, so I'm curious if there are verses that say it's right to hate people who hate or go against God, because the verses above don't seem to say that.  As far as I can tell, it's just an ugly statement from someone living in a primitive culture, and that Christians should not feel good about thinking like him.

[Assyriankey]

Psalms 

I think QM's thinking has been exposed on this flank before - his answer then was to say that hate and love are not polar opposites (or sumthing).

[SkunkButt]

Quote from: God or some crude, ugly bigot
PS 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred

You can just feel the love.   

[Fit2BThaied]

God changed the rules for obedient believers.

LOVE YOUR ENEMIES...SO THAT YOU BE GOD'S CHILDREN.

I believe people-haters are not God's children.

[kevin]

SoM, if you want to argue the OT, you'll have to do it with Jews. Like Fit says, the world changed in Jerusalem a while back.

You'll get a rise from Christians in defending the OT, which is good, but the whole point of Christianity is that the OT didn't work, which is why we have a NT.

That's a line I stole from a Friend of mine.

[Airyaman]

SoM, if you want to argue the OT, you'll have to do it with Jews. Like Fit says, the world changed in Jerusalem a while back.

Rome actually.

You'll get a rise from Christians in defending the OT, which is good, but the whole point of Christianity is that the OT didn't work, which is why we have a NT.

The OT did not work for a portion of the Gentile world. It seems to work quite satisfactorily for a few million Jews.

That's a line I stole from a Friend of mine.

Give it back to him.

[kevin]

Something is eating you.

What's up?

[Son of Man]

SoM, if you want to argue the OT, you'll have to do it with Jews. Like Fit says, the world changed in Jerusalem a while back.

You'll get a rise from Christians in defending the OT, which is good, but the whole point of Christianity is that the OT didn't work, which is why we have a NT.

That's a line I stole from a Friend of mine.

The reason I brought it up was that a Christian did first.  I found it odd that he quoted the OT when the NT seemed to do away with such nonsense.  I thought it so peculiar that I was curious to see if any other Christians felt this way, or if it was just him.

[Airyaman]

Something is eating you.

What's up?

I'm just offering opposition to your post.

Of the many Christians on the various boards I frequent, I will admit that you and Shawna are among the most sensible. But that will not prevent me from questioning what either of you say if I happen to disagree or have questions. This will either frustrate you, strenghten your faith, or get you to think about what you truly believe.

[SkunkButt]

God is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow.


Then he changes and we aren't supposed to notice?

[Airyaman]

^^ Jewish people will say he didn't because they do not accept that Christianity is truly about their god. Problem with this is that their god changed too with time. One just needs to read the first five books and then those written during the exile to see the truth of this.

[kevin]

. . .

Obviously, whoever wrote that quoted bit of Psalms hated those who didn't care for his god.  But does God say that this man's feelings were justified?  When I read that verse, I get the impression that it was written by someone from a brutal culture and that if the man were alive today, people would refer to him as a bigot. 

. . .

Just initially, Jake, what you describe is an enemy, not a bigot. A bigot is someone who makes perjorative assumptions about someone based on real or perceived experiences with other people. The key is that the area in question (such as honesty) is assumed to correlate with the area of experience (such as skin color), although there is no genuine connection. Often bigots have limited experience or understanding with or of the group they exhibit prejudice for.

If someone had met an unintelligent atheist (I have met many), it would be bigoted of him to say, "All atheists are unintelligent," because atheism is probably not correlated with stupidity, although his limited experience might support him. If I met a man who wore a Fascist brown shirt and Sam Browne belt, and he threw my family into gaol because of their beliefs in God, I could say, "Fascist Brown Shirts are the enemies of God, and I hate them," and that wouldn't indicate bigotry either, just enmity.

If I said, "You are bad for society, because some religious beliefs are destructive, and you are a religious person," then it could be argued that I had made a bigoted statement. I would be making a sweeping conclusion about innocent people, and it would be based on a mistaken assumption. The mistaken assumption is that I can predict a large portion of someone's beliefs and behavior based on limited experience with other people who shared an unrelated, but easily identified characteristic.

[kevin]

Something is eating you.

What's up?

I'm just offering opposition to your post.

Of the many Christians on the various boards I frequent, I will admit that you and Shawna are among the most sensible. But that will not prevent me from questioning what either of you say if I happen to disagree or have questions. This will either frustrate you, strenghten your faith, or get you to think about what you truly believe.

Be careful that your opposition doesn't become reflexive, so that rather than thinking about what is said, you merely think about how to oppose it. Too many people here make that mistake, although you're not generally one of them. Except on your bad hair days.

And please question anything I say, in any way that seems appropriate. I think about what I truly believe every day, and continues to evolve, although the iterations seem to get smaller and smaller. I haven't had a major paradigm shift in a long time. So either I'm ossifying, or getting closer to reality.

[Dexter]

Holy or Bigoted?

or in the whole bigotted?

[Fit2BThaied]

^^ Jewish people will say he didn't because they do not accept that Christianity is truly about their god. Problem with this is that their god changed too with time. One just needs to read the first five books and then those written during the exile to see the truth of this.

Yes. Even before the exile, the Yahweh who was originally depicted at times like a homicidal genocidist, becomes increasingly the God of peace, who sends the members of the covenant into exile for breaking the covenant. Centuries later, Jesus appears as a pacifist Jew, and he's not murdered for being a Jewish pacifist. Ignoring Jesus, Judaism spends another 1,900 years living peacefully.

Shalom.

[Dexter]

Judaism spends another 1,900 years living peacefully.

Shalom.

Peacefully? being murdered at home is peaceful? another 1900 years not living in Palestine?

[Assyriankey]

Centuries later, Jesus appears as a pacifist Jew, and he's not murdered for being a Jewish pacifist.

Thanks Mel!

###

From a Jewish perspective Jesus wasn't murdered, he got his just desserts.

[Zerilos]

What does it mean when you find an accurate description of your beliefs offensive?

[Fit2BThaied]

Judaism spends another 1,900 years living peacefully.

Shalom.

Peacefully? being murdered at home is peaceful? another 1900 years not living in Palestine?

The Jews obeyed Paul's command which almost all Christians ignored after 400 CE - 'as much as it lies within your own power, live at peace with all."

[kevin]

Yep. Mainstream Christianity went off on a theological tangent after it was co-opted for politics. Just war theory, and the need to persecute rather than submit. Not a pretty change.

I won't speak for the Jews, because I can't, but Jesus and his teachings were carefully slanted and now are often unrecognizable in modern Christian sects and denominations. In different ways and places.

I've never understood the reconciliation between Prince of Peace and Chop You to Pieces.

[Assyriankey]

Yep. Mainstream Christianity went off on a theological tangent after it was co-opted for politics. Just war theory, and the need to persecute rather than submit. Not a pretty change.

Not pretty but no doubt theologically sound to the mainstream.

[Zerilos]

Yep. Mainstream Christianity went off on a theological tangent after it was co-opted for politics. Just war theory, and the need to persecute rather than submit. Not a pretty change.

Not pretty but no doubt theologically sound to the mainstream.

Given the content of the OT, considering violence aberrant would almost have to be viewed as blasphemous. In the OT, violence was the solution to almost every problem. Christians acting violently only seems to demonstrate that Christians understood what it meant for Jesus to be the fulfillment of the scriptures.

[Assyriankey]

What does it mean when you find an accurate description of your beliefs offensive?

It normally means that it's time to start equivocating.

[QuestionMark]

SoM, if you want to argue the OT, you'll have to do it with Jews. Like Fit says, the world changed in Jerusalem a while back.

You'll get a rise from Christians in defending the OT, which is good, but the whole point of Christianity is that the OT didn't work, which is why we have a NT.

That's a line I stole from a Friend of mine.

Why would you quote men who hate the word of God and the gospel with the intent of trying to bring men to God? No one comes to the Father except through Christ. The Law did not CHANGE, the rules did not CHANGE, they were fulfilled and satisfied. Their intent was REALIZED. The WORK is completed. The revelation of it continues.

In the elect, the revelation of God's perfect righteousness is revealed through faith just as it was in Abraham. But the Law is our tutor, and God's word has not failed! The covenants which God made in former times accomplished their purpose exactly because the LORD GOD does not make mistakes.

The Lord rebuke you for assaulting His character in attempting to make Him more acceptable to men. If you truly loved people and were in the business of saving men from sin and death then you would be changing them not changing God.

[QuestionMark]

Given the content of the OT, considering violence aberrant would almost have to be viewed as blasphemous. In the OT, violence was the solution to almost every problem. Christians acting violently only seems to demonstrate that Christians understood what it meant for Jesus to be the fulfillment of the scriptures.

Violence IS the solution, yet not violence against bodies... violence against spiritual powers. Every time Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. When the people worshiped an idol Moses called all the faithful to slaughter them. That is the Law, pertaining to the flesh, and it is righteous for God will not leave sin unpunished. Now in Christ we are taking every though captive, destroying strongholds in the heavenly realms, humbling every spirit that sets itself up against Christ so that all things are in subjection under Him. What was done before in the flesh is now being done in the Spirit.

[QuestionMark]

As far as I can tell, it's just an ugly statement from someone living in a primitive culture, and that Christians should not feel good about thinking like him.

The underlying assumption being that you are in a cultural zenith sitting at the peak of moral understanding with all of the necessary resource to make perfect moral judgments in a world that has no absolute right and wrong and in which everyone who claims the right to assert truth doesn't have a 'moral high ground' because such ideas are ridiculed and knowledge of justice maligned.

You who say there is no wrong say that others who define wrong are wrong.  How weighty you are as an accuser referring to laws which don't exist. As if men wiping out half the earth would actually have some objective meaning to you when the only competing worldview in your opinion is a vicious circle of predator prey relationships that result in the ultimate annihilation of every species let alone being.

[rickymooston]

God is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow.


Then he changes and we aren't supposed to notice?

maybe he didn't change; his orders did.

[Son of Man]

As far as I can tell, it's just an ugly statement from someone living in a primitive culture, and that Christians should not feel good about thinking like him.

The underlying assumption being that you are in a cultural zenith sitting at the peak of moral understanding with all of the necessary resource to make perfect moral judgments in a world that has no absolute right and wrong and in which everyone who claims the right to assert truth doesn't have a 'moral high ground' because such ideas are ridiculed and knowledge of justice maligned.

You who say there is no wrong say that others who define wrong are wrong.  How weighty you are as an accuser referring to laws which don't exist. As if men wiping out half the earth would actually have some objective meaning to you when the only competing worldview in your opinion is a vicious circle of predator prey relationships that result in the ultimate annihilation of every species let alone being.

Just as I can look at a moist, warm, steamy shlt on the carpet and say that it's ugly, without being on a moral/cultural zenith, or whatever, I can look at a verse about perfect hatred and say that it's ugly, too.  You're making this more complicated than it really is.

[Assyriankey]

You who say there is no wrong say that others who define wrong are wrong.  How weighty you are as an accuser referring to laws which don't exist. As if men wiping out half the earth would actually have some objective meaning to you when the only competing worldview in your opinion is a vicious circle of predator prey relationships that result in the ultimate annihilation of every species let alone being.

That ^ sounds insulting 

###

SoM, did you ever say that there is no wrong?  If you did then you're wrong 

[Fit2BThaied]

God is the same yesterday , today and tomorrow.


Then he changes and we aren't supposed to notice?

maybe he didn't change; his orders did.

God's orders for God's people to live nonviolently apparently changed drastically, centuries before Jesus was born.