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Offline Doubting Thomas

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How to make abortions rare?
« on: October 02, 2008, 09:29:57 PM »
I have heard that in the US we have the highest teenage pregnanacy rate.  It is as high as 1/3 of all girls and woman under 20 get pregnant.  I have heard of teenagers who got pregnanat from a one night stand and later aborted their fetus.  That is sad that shouldn't happen.  To abort a perfectley healthy fetus that could grow up and be a productive happy member of society is wrong.

However abortion is not always immoral, there is the instances when a potential mother could die during the pregnancy.   The child due to chemical pollution, could be born with no brain, no eyes even and it would be okay to abort that fetus.  Or the mother could be infected with aids, and so will the fetus.  So instead it would be better to abort the fetus. 

These decisions and moral questions are left for the mother to decide about them, if the mother is under eighteen, then yes the parent should be a part of informing the child as to right course of action. Also, frankly even twelve year olds can get pregnant, so in case like that I believe the twelve year old is simply too young to be a mother and should abort, but would most likely need the help of the parent to do so.  Again these are not decisions for the government to be a part of due to the fact that there are privacy issues that are important for the mother.

However, aside from all the moral issues of abortion, such as, is a fetus a person, we should concentrate on what can the nation do to help make the abortion of perfectly healthy fetuses, by perfectly healthy mothers become rare.  How do we help the abortion rate really go down to a low number?  I feel it would be nice if we could get to the point where abortions were done by mothers only for a medically necessary issue.

So what are your thoughts?

Offline QuestionMark

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2008, 09:31:47 PM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.
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Offline hideousmonster

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2008, 10:21:57 PM »
Teach abstinence, sexual function as having a primarily reproductive purpose, and that parenting potential should be a deciding factor in choosing sexual partners, just in case a pregnancy results.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 10:47:38 PM by hideousmonster »
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Offline Assyriankey

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2008, 11:56:36 PM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.

Out of sight, out of mind - did God teach you this trick? :)

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I think the best way to lower the rate of abortions is contraception - no fetus, no problem  ||thumbs||
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 01:03:41 AM »
I have heard that in the US we have the highest teenage pregnanacy rate.  It is as high as 1/3 of all girls and woman under 20 get pregnant.  ...

I am not sure about teen aged rate but CANADA has a HIGHER abortion rate and MOST abortions are NOT teens here.

Solution?  Get people to care?  See my poll, it has statistics for both Canada and the US.
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Offline LaetusAtheos

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2008, 01:11:45 AM »
It's really very simple. 

1)  Can the "abstinance only" sex ed programs and teach kids what sex is, that masterbation is natural, how to be safe, and secular reasons for why it's a good idea to wait until they are ready.

2) Parents should keep a stash of birth contol products where their kids can grab them with no questions asked.  School should be allowed to pass out condoms. 

If we want teenage pregnancy to go down we, as a society, are going to have to accept that teenagers are sexual beings with sexual needs.  Most healthy adults aren't able to deny their own sexuality (even if they want to), why should we expect the teenagers to be able to suppress theirs.
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2008, 01:56:28 AM »
It's really very simple. 

1)  Can the "abstinance only" sex ed programs and teach kids what sex is, that masterbation is natural, how to be safe, and secular reasons for why it's a good idea to wait until they are ready.

2) Parents should keep a stash of birth contol products where their kids can grab them with no questions asked.  School should be allowed to pass out condoms. 

If we want teenage pregnancy to go down we, as a society, are going to have to accept that teenagers are sexual beings with sexual needs.  Most healthy adults aren't able to deny their own sexuality (even if they want to), why should we expect the teenagers to be able to suppress theirs.

Good points.

2) is very innovative but only works for teens.

In Canada, teens are NOT the principle source of abortions!!!  Our abortion rate is HIGHER than US and we have very good sex education programs.  Our abortion rate is DOUBLE that of the US!!!

http://isgodimaginary.com/forum/index.php/topic,2171.0.html



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Offline Sunnysweets

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2008, 02:44:55 AM »
I say "keep your legs closed" (women) "or cover it up" (men), simple.   ||wink||
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Offline seka

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2008, 02:51:29 AM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.

Right, treat the symptom, not the cause.

By the way, how exactly do you propose that it be enforced? What would you do to a woman who has committed abortion?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 03:03:48 AM by seka »

Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2008, 02:54:15 AM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.

Because we all know how well that deterrent works on crimes that receive capital punishment, now.
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2008, 03:00:16 AM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.

Because we all know how well that deterrent works on crimes that receive capital punishment, now.

 ||Kris||

 Several species of animals kill the male right after he climaxes. They are not extinct.

 I suppose if you wanted a radical solution?

Institutionalized Mandatory daily "self-love". Doctor could determine the correct number of times to prevent any priblems from occuring.
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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2008, 03:05:47 AM »
Make abortion a capital crime, and enforce it.

Voila. No abortions.

Did you ever live in Wheat Ridge, Colorado?  : )

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Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2008, 03:06:57 AM »
It's an issue of supply vs demand. It matters little what is the "thing" being supplied as long as their is a demand for it. As can be shown in drug trafficking, when there's a demand for something, be it drugs or abortions, the supply will be provided. Abortion has been an art much longer than cesarean sections and other modern obstetrician methods. As long as women are getting pregnant, and don't want the baby, there's going to be abortions. I think the key is education and plain solutions. I agree with the ethos of the title. How do we make abortions "rare", because they're not going to go away totally.
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Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2008, 03:10:17 AM »
Did you ever live in Wheat Ridge, Colorado?  : )



**shudder**
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Offline seka

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2008, 04:30:13 AM »
It's an issue of supply vs demand. It matters little what is the "thing" being supplied as long as their is a demand for it. As can be shown in drug trafficking, when there's a demand for something, be it drugs or abortions, the supply will be provided. Abortion has been an art much longer than cesarean sections and other modern obstetrician methods. As long as women are getting pregnant, and don't want the baby, there's going to be abortions. I think the key is education and plain solutions. I agree with the ethos of the title. How do we make abortions "rare", because they're not going to go away totally.

That is absolutely true. In fact, right now I could show you a plant that grows as a common weed  in most backyards across the country, that can be used to induce an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy. As long as there are unwanted pregnancies, there will be abortions - no law is going to prevent that.

So, as far as making abortions rare, I think that it comes down to making unwanted pregnancies rare first. This needs to be done through education - women, and men, need to be educated about facts about sex, about reasons for abstaining, about healthy relationships, and about methods of contraception. The last, of course, means that those methods of contraception need to be readily available to those people who choose to have sex and do not wish to have a baby.

However, since there is no way to eliminate unwanted pregnancies completely, there also needs to be support for those women who find themselves unexpectedly pregnant. I don't have statistics on this, but I imagine that many abortions are done out of desperation - a woman doesn't decide that it is just too much of a bother to have a baby, but rather feels that in her situation she has no choice. For some of these women, knowing that there is a group (whether it be family, friends, or a secular or religious group) that will offer her help and support as she goes through the pregnancy and then afterwards, as she adjusts to a life with a child or as she goes through the adoption process, would make abortion the less likely choice.

None of this will eliminate abortions completely, but I do think it would make them a much rarer thing.

Offline Auz

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2008, 09:34:03 AM »
Auzzie's "Grand Solution" solves this one as well. Sterilize the population, control reproduction and thus eliminate the need for abortion, whilst also taking care of overpopulation and other major problems facing us. (I'm still writing it up, you'll see it in full once it's done). Any questions and comments are more than welcome.
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Offline Assyriankey

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2008, 10:30:42 AM »
Several species of animals kill the male right after he climaxes. They are not extinct.

 ||think||

To the best of my knowledge there is no species whose male is always killed by the female after mating.
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Offline Auz

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 10:56:36 AM »
To the best of my knowledge there is no species whose male is always killed by the female after mating.
Praying Mantis' often do it. I would quote it, but I'm far too lazy. And besides, Quick Reply doesn't have function buttons, so I have to type every tag I want to use. And yes, I realise that in the time it took me to b***h about that, I could've just done it. Don't you just love procrastination?
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Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 07:22:04 PM »
Several species of animals kill the male right after he climaxes. They are not extinct.

 ||think||

To the best of my knowledge there is no species whose male is always killed by the female after mating.


Agreed. As my maths teacher says, if it's not always true, it's false.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2008, 05:46:42 AM »
When a woman has complete and total control over her own reproduction, abortion will all but disappear. The problem is that contraception is BARELY better than it was when I was young, and that was THIRTY years ago!!! All of them have failure rates that are imperfect. ALL of them have risks or side effects or higher failure rates. If there were a god/creator, clearly it isn't a woman. If I were in charge, women would, by default, not have ANY chance to get pregnant unless they took some very overt action. And, NO, abstaining from sex isn't the answer. It clearly doesn't work for most people.

Put research into better, safer contraception. Educate young people about ALL the options, and the very high risks of randy young people getting pregnant. Some of the ignorance out there is appalling. Have classes for youngsters that make them care for a baby, for those youngsters who think it would be cool to get pregnant while they're still in school.
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Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2008, 04:15:22 PM »
+1 ^

I think an important thing in "education" is to teach children/people to rationally reason what are the consequences of various actions/behaviors.
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Offline JustMyron

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2008, 10:12:18 PM »
It's really very simple. 

1)  Can the "abstinance only" sex ed programs and teach kids what sex is, that masterbation is natural, how to be safe, and secular reasons for why it's a good idea to wait until they are ready.

2) Parents should keep a stash of birth contol products where their kids can grab them with no questions asked.  School should be allowed to pass out condoms. 

Let me start by saying I am not against contraception, I think it's necessary and when used responsibly, beneficial. But I am against the idea of "safe sex" (Contraception = you're "safe" from pregnancy). The idea of "safe" sex via contaception means people having a lot more sex, a lot more carelessly, as a form of recreation without due consideration of the consequences. This increases, rather than decreases, the number of unintentional pregnancies. Instead of safe sex, what ought to be taught is that you shouldn't have sex with someone with whom you would not be willing and able to raise a child if a pregnancy occurred - doing otherwise is irrresponsible and reprehensible.

In summary, it comes down to changing public opinion, putting the following ideas into the public consciousness:
1. All contraceptive methods fail to one degree or another, and always will - there is no such thing as safe sex.
2. Because of this, the only way to be sexually responsible is to only have sex when you would be willing and able to keep and raise a baby with the other person.
3. Your sexual drives can legitimately be met through masturbation or non-solo sexual stimumation that doesn't involve a risk of pregnancy (which, if you want "safe sex", is what you have to go for), so there is no reason you have to risk pregnancy, it's a choice, and if done with someone with whom you couldn't handle a pregancy, it's a very irresponsible one.
4. There are various opionions on when abortion becomes murder (when a fetus becomes a person), but even if you think it's at a really late stage of pregnancy or at birth, you could be wrong, and abortion is, generally speaking, a moral risk not worth taking (except in very extreme circumstances).

Both the religious and the secular crowd have parts right and parts wrong in their approaches, I think. When I talk about sexual responsibility, I get a thumbs up from the Catholic crowd, but have in the past been told by some college buddies that I sound like a religious nut/their mother the religious nut. Meanwhile, when I talk about contraception as non-evil and masturbation/sex play without intercourse as valid ways to deal with unwanted sex drive, I get cheers from the sex ed teachers of the world (until I express my views on contraception as the source of a dangerously over-sexualized culture, at which point they become less certain of me) but the the religious folks won't even give me the time of day.

I just wish people could step outside of their particular group's "standard solution" to unplanned pregnancy, because I think a combination of sexual responsibility, contraception, willingness to masturbate, and understanding of the seriousness of abortion would be a near-ideal solution.

Offline QuestionMark

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2008, 10:33:00 PM »
I think an important thing in "education" is to teach children/people to rationally reason what are the consequences of various actions/behaviors.
Doesn't this sentence amount to "It's important in education to teach people to think"?

Education doesn't stop us from doing bad things, it makes us do different bad things. Instead of stealing a candy bar while getting paid minimum wage with no high school education, we might cheat on our taxes as middle class, or embezzle money as an executive.

If education is the answer, it's moral education, and discussion of values, and philosophy... teach people how to evaluate decisions not with their IQ but with empathy. Yes, I think the government does have a right to educate people on morals, and I think it's absurd that people say the government cannot. The simplest method government has is incentives. If you violate moral laws, you go to prison. That's one type of education.

But on the topic of abortion it is LEGAL to murder a child the day before it is born and not the day after. Even a ten year old can see through this. How can you educate a person if your own perspective doesn't make any sense?
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Offline Vynn

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2008, 11:32:23 PM »
Doesn't this sentence amount to "It's important in education to teach people to think"?

Maybe. I place a different value on "reasoning" and "thinking". People think all the time about complete and utter nonsense. Reasoning is the weighing of various hypotheses.

Recently, a person i know lied to someone else in an effort to get them to tell the truth about something they only assumed to know the truth about. Now, that person was thinking, but not reasoning very well.


Education doesn't stop us from doing bad things, it makes us do different bad things. Instead of stealing a candy bar while getting paid minimum wage with no high school education, we might cheat on our taxes as middle class, or embezzle money as an executive.

I'm going to use the word "reasoning", as it suits my point better. Teaching someone to reason will cause them to consider pros and cons both, and the effect of their actions. People who don't reason well may not be considering very carefully the result of their actions. Reasonable people who use their capacity to reason won't need abortions nearly as much as an unreasonable person who doesn't think about the consequences to their actions.


If education is the answer, it's moral education, and discussion of values, and philosophy... teach people how to evaluate decisions not with their IQ but with empathy. Yes, I think the government does have a right to educate people on morals, and I think it's absurd that people say the government cannot. The simplest method government has is incentives. If you violate moral laws, you go to prison. That's one type of education.

I'd use the term "cause and effect". If there's an effect, then people will more carefully evaluate the cause, IF they are supplied with the proper REASONING to be able to figure those things out. It does no good to have a cause for an effect and not teach people how to reason out whether they are doing the cause or not.

By the way, prisons only teach prisoners how to survive well in prison. As far as teaching prisoners how to subsist outside of prison, they are a complete failure. This is a problem, imo.


But on the topic of abortion it is LEGAL to murder a child the day before it is born and not the day after. Even a ten year old can see through this. How can you educate a person if your own perspective doesn't make any sense?

Actually, that's not correct. In most states abortion is NOT legal the day before delivery unless there are very special conditions. As much as i don't like the idea of abortion, i'd rather see abortion than a parent treating their child like so much garbage. We've got limited resources, and our planet is over populated now. Every society has (and has had) some form of population control. Until recently, most babies died within a year of their birth. Until recently, most people didn't live very long and when their teeth wore out, they starved to death. As long as our medicine is this good, abortion is perfectly acceptable as a means of controlling the population, imo, otherwise, nature will do it for us, somehow, someway. The biggest cause of abortion is god, anyway, as nearly a quarter of all fetuses self abort -- Most before the mother even knows about it. 
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Offline Sunnysweets

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2008, 11:57:30 PM »



I didn't want to copy it all, but everything you said up there is awesome! +1  ||thumbs||
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Offline QuestionMark

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 01:15:14 AM »
By the way, prisons only teach prisoners how to survive well in prison. As far as teaching prisoners how to subsist outside of prison, they are a complete failure. This is a problem, imo.
You're right. I was using prison figuratively for penalties in general.
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Offline Assyriankey

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 02:52:29 AM »
If education is the answer, it's moral education, and discussion of values, and philosophy... teach people how to evaluate decisions not with their IQ but with empathy. Yes, I think the government does have a right to educate people on morals, and I think it's absurd that people say the government cannot. The simplest method government has is incentives. If you violate moral laws, you go to prison. That's one type of education.

Penalties are not education.

Morals are subjective and personal laws - governments cannot teach them.  Governments can and do teach ethical codes.  Is that what you want to see more of?
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Offline Assyriankey

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 02:53:12 AM »



I didn't want to copy it all, but everything you said up there is awesome! +1  ||thumbs||

JustMyron is a treasure :)
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Offline QuestionMark

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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 02:54:57 AM »
Penalties are not education.
Sure they are. Dude gets 900 years in prison. Everyone else thinks, that's insane, he's never getting out. Doing what he did is a bad idea.
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Re: How to make abortions rare?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 03:02:29 AM »
But on the topic of abortion it is LEGAL to murder a child the day before it is born and not the day after. Even a ten year old can see through this.

I doubt that! Where do you get that from?
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